Those pesky Electrons
In a DC Circuit does current flow from positive to negative or negative to positive?
Some of you are now thinking “E4U has lost his mind” others will have snorted and giggled a little. Those of you that giggled know what I am talking about.
I am an electrician. I have been for 30 years. I started as a helper and worked my way up. In the Navy I was an Interior Communications Electrician. I was an Electrician’s Helper before I joined the Navy. The question above is about conventional current flow theory vs. electron current flow. In the Navy I learned electron theory, the civilian world teaches conventional. I know the real answer but at the end of the day it doesn’t really matter.
The current flow question has been an example of how serving in the Military can forever change a persons way of thinking. The truth is that Benjamin Franklin was the first to indicate positive and negative with respect to current flow. He got it backwards. It has been taught old Bens way in most courses except military and some engineering classes. But the lights still work so it’s no big deal.
For the last week or so I have been working. When I say working I mean as an electrician, with my tools. It has been fun. There is not a part of my body that does not hurt but its been worth it. I have slept like a baby every night. There is a long explanation as to why I have been doing this but at the end of the day I got to reconnect with my trade is a real way. The truth is I enjoy being an electrician. The Navy taught me the theory, something that many people that call themselves electricians don’t understand. This week I needed that theory. I also needed a bunch of advil to keep up with the young guys.
I have been out of the Navy a long time, everyday I still do some things the way I learned in the Navy. One of the things the Navy refined for me is logical thinking. That is not to take a shotgun approach but to isolate the real problem and fix it. I wish Obama had served.
Ah yes, the ol’ electrons and holes thing…
“I wish Obama had served.”
Sadly, prior service does not a (good) President make. Case in point, President Carter.
And actually I can extend that to a whole slew of politicians that I hope never make it to the White House. John Kerry immediately comes to mind.
Wesley “Climate Change” Clark comes instantly to my mind.
Charlie Rangel, Al Gore, Duke Cunningham, Tammy Duckworth…
Lyndon B. Johnson…
OTOH, the Worst President Until The Current One- Woodrow Wilson- also never served in uniform.
True. One must have some natural ability and good character first. Serving in the military won’t necessarily develop those basic qualities.
As the old saying goes: “You can’t make chicken salad out of chicken sh . . . . “
Well, I have no idea what you are talking about. When I read “DC Circuit” I thought you were referring to a court. I know this about things electric: stay away. Make that far away. Ever since I plugged in a vacuum cleaner while my thumb rested against one of the prongs, I knew that electricity was not my friend. From time to time over the years, I have tried to learn something useful about electricity but my head never could retain what I learned. Hell, I still don’t understand why batteries go in one way, then the other.
In DC, they seem to intentionally defy all commonly understood systems of logic, physics, reasoning processes, sanity and every other thing which might remotely translate to civil behavior. Can “crazy, self-serving pomposity” even be put in terms of electrical circuitry? Probably, but it would be a near scientific impossibility. But that shouldn’t stop anyone from trying, and believing it.
Enigma4You: kinda depends on whether you’re talking about AC or DC, actually.
In one case, as I recall the direction is constant. In the other – well, if you don’t like the way things are going at present, just wait a while.
I guess that means one of the two is kinda like the weather or politics, actually. (smile)
Best of both worlds – is a helluva band.
I seem to recall one of my instructors mentioning that at some point after WWII the Brits decided that they knew better than the rest of the world and switched all of their wiring and labeling diagrams to electron flow. My instructor mention how he bought some British car in the late 60s and didn’t know this, so when he did some electrical work himself on the car, he fried everything.
Ah yes – the famous British “positive earth” automobiles of the 1950s and 1960s. (smile)
From what I’ve read, positive ground was actually fairly common in US vehicles prior to the early/mid 1950s switchover to 12V neg ground systems. Prior to then, GM was neg ground, but many others weren’t.
Does kinda mean you need to pay a bit more attention to detail when working on antique cars – or on any British car from the 1960s. (smile)
I have had a few British cars with Lucas electrics.
Its a pretty simple matter to convert one from positive ground to negative ground
Change the polarity on the generator (Yes its a generator not an alternator) and make sure you reverse the pick up coil on the tach.
Windshield wiper will run backwards but thats no big deal, they still work
Why do Brits drink warm beer?
Because Lucas makes their refrigerators!
All week. Veal. Waiter
Repairing my Bonneville 750 is where I learned the term “don’t let the smoke out”. Also learned, Lucas sucks!!
quarky 🙂
A little Lucas humor….
http://www.mez.co.uk/lucas.html
Lucas, travel at the speed of dark!
Brit bikes, too. “Lucas, Prince of Darkness” was well named.
E4Y…I was taught the “Electron Flow” of current, many, many years ago. In it, electrons in a DC circuit flow from negative to positive. Outside of the source. Inside of the source, a battery for example in a DC circuit, electrons flow positive to negative.
Conventional flow of current as often taught in recent years, especially for civilians, is easier for some to understand but technically not accurate when you get down to the atomic level of electron charge and exchange from atom to atom in a conductor or semiconductor.
My first civilian job involved a mandatory school which was taking folks off the street and trying to teach them enough electronics to get by. They used the conventional flow method and every electronics trained veteran in the class kept calling bogus on it. The instructor finally talked to us aside and said he understood how we were trained and agreed, but that it was easier for Sam and Sue from the street to understand to conventional flow. So we just bit our lips and endured it.
Also, nothing bothered me more in civilian work than a coworker, ill-trained, walking up to a circuit board repair bench or any device to work on and NOT TAKING OFF ALL JEWELERY! I remember clowns in the military, repairing high current DC power supplies walk away with a permanent burn mark on their ring finger or wrist. If you were caught it was bad news. Every written procedure began with, “Remove all metallic jewelery” for you protection and the equipments.
Sorry for the long post. I do like electronics though.
So do I.
Years ago I had a VCR and a cat. The cat knocked the VCR off its shelf and some how cracked the front control board in half.
I drilled and wired the board together and resoldered the circuit paths. I had to replace a few resistors, total cost was about 3 bucks and half an hour of my time.
My roommate at the time was amazed that it could be fixed like that.
I dont do electronic repair much anymore. I did reflow the cruise control module on my car a few weeks ago and I ordered new stepper motors and rebuilt the instrument cluster on my truck.
My 30 some years old weller solder station has finally died beyond repair so I am looking at replacements. I have been thinking about building a better reflow machine. Mine now started life as an electric griddle and a heat gun
When you build a homemade electroplating setup or electronic gun barrel cleaner electron flow becomes critical. 🙂
Back in the old days when I taught Electrical Theory at a community college I used to recommend a book named “There are no Electrons, Electronics for earthlings” by Ken Ahmnal
Its very entertaining and extremely informative and available on Amazon.
Having been ‘bit’ more than once by electrical this and that – and not through carelessness on my part, either – my approach to electrical anything is take it out of the box, plug it in, use it, turn it off, clean it up and put it away. And avoid contact with water while you’re at it. And make sure that the thing is grounded, so you don’t get burned.
I think most of that applies not only to replacing thermostats, because I prefer that someone else get zapped by the voltage, but also to certain politic individuals who think they are more important than they really are.
It’s strange that the cycle always becomes a complete circuit right around this time of year.
Knock on plastic I have only ever been shocked twice when working.
One time was my own fault I got careless and hit a live circuit with my hand.
the other time was a homeowner who not only removed a breaker lock but also the tape and sign on a switch that said do not turn on. I was working on a post light way up the driveway. He thought I had left.
E4U: I used to be pretty conformable with anything with wires downstream from the house drop. Kinda fun reading yer post and comments.
Wired/rewired AC stuff for years. Etched my own PC boards back in the day, etc. TV repair (tubes and transistors) and a long list of similar. Shucks I was a Ham at 13, and a computer nerd before it was popular. Built my own CP/M machine from parts, etc.
Thanks for the memories. Losing fine control in my hands now though – or maybe just getting clumsy?
Passed general class theory test at age 15 and learned electron flow during that process. House wiring and 12V dc doesn’t bother me but I still get confused and pissed off every time I test a diode with my fluke. Also with the arc and mig welder, electrode positive/negative. I try not to overthink it…I just look at the pretty pictures and set it up the way they tell me to.
Fixin’ to teach myself Mig and Tig here in a few months when I buy a Tweco i211 Fabricator.
I have wired about 5 houses of my own that were gutted down to the studs. I love doing the wiring in the houses.
The last one I did had 17 light switches between the kitchen and the living room. Half were dimmers 4 were three way and I put an outlet above the refrigerator on a separate circuit for the TV to go there. There was also a cable TV outlet there and a phone jack too.
That house was beautiful inside and out. I really outdid myself on it.
Too bad the woman and I ended up splitting, she kept the house, but, I got the RV and the Harley !!! So I was happy with the trade !!!
“Change the polarity on the generator (Yes its a generator not an alternator) and make sure you reverse the pick up coil on the tach.”
I em tpyngi thiz blondd becauyg ny etes rolled up im thr back off my hesd efter resding that,
Im going to go shoot NECCO Wafers…
Well, use the pink. By way of explanation, I guess my know-how gauge doesn’t go beyond the k when it comes to electrical workings. (A reading of k means I can change a light bulb and change a wall plate.) I never meant for it to happen: It just did. That said, I greatly admire the skills of those among us who can actually can distinguish between a dynamo and a dild–no, I had better not.
I always wondered what REALLY went through electrical wires.
It’s not electrons. It’s SMOKE.
When you see smoke coming out of a wire, the device(s) attached to it stop working.
http://thecompassadjuster.com/education/resources/smoke-theory-of-electricity.html
No, no, that’s called “the Smoke Test.” After finishing a project, any project involving electricity, the first thing you do is turn it on and look for smoke.
If there’s no smoke, ya move on to the next stage.
🙂
And…more about smoke theory.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=69445.0
It was the military that taught me the now politically incorrect, “Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly for Gold or Silver or Nothing.” Those were the days.
Ah, the old resistor color code mnemonic. As long as you could remember whether black or brown came first, you were “golden”. (smile)
I r a retarded, errr, retired ET. http://goatlocker.org/resources/nav/safety.htm The Ten Commandments of Electrical/Electronic Safety I. Beware of the lightning that lurketh in seemingly uncharged capacitors lest it cause thee to bounce upon thy buttocks in an useamanlike manner and cause thy hair to stand on end, therby exceeding regulation length. II. Cause thou the switch that supplieth large quantities of juice to be opened and thusly tagged, that thy days may be long in this earthly vale. III. Prove to thyself that all circuits that radiateth and upon which thou worketh are grounded and thusly tagged, lest they lift thee to radio frequency potential and causeth thee to radiate with the angels. IV. Tarry thou not amongst those fools that engage in intentional shocks, for they are not long of this world and are surely unbelievers. V. Take care thou useth the proper method when thou taketh the measure of high voltage so thou dost not incinerate both thee and thy test equipment. For verily, though thou hast no NSN (National Stock Number) and can be easily surveyed, the test equipment has one, and as a consequence, bringeth much woe to thy supply officer. VI. Take care thou tamperest not with interlocks and safety devices, for this incurreth the wrath of thy department head and bringeth the fury of thy Commanding Officer on thy head. VII. Work thou not on energized equipment without proper procedures, for if thou dost so, thy shipmates will surely be buying beers for thy widow and consoling her in ways not generally acceptable to thee. VIII. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, never service equiment alone, for electrical cooking is a slow process, and thou might sizzle in thine own fat upon a hot circuit for hours on end before thy maker sees fit to end thy misery and drag thee into his fold. IX. Trifle thee not with radioactive tubes and substances lest thou commence to glow in the dark like a lightning bug and thy wife be frustrated and have no further use for thee except thy wages . X. Commit thou to… Read more »
True dat. And 120 is still the deadliest stuff because people don’t respect it.
And for the record, learned both electron and hole flow. Left hand rules, right hand rules, meh.
Verily!
VIII is the one that actually scares me the most. UGH!!
Do.
Not.
Want.
My old chief, FCCM(SS/SW) Kay, used to tell stories of charging caps (I believe with a megger) and leaving them on the desks of unsuspecting LTJGs.
B.E.E.P. school;,Great Lakes, 1958:
“Chief, we gonna learn anything about transistors?”
“Navy ain’t got no transistors right now. When we get some, you’ll learn about them.”
As a highly trained Ground Radio technician, of the early 80s, it really ticks me off to see how little skill today’s “technicians” have. Everything is “swaptronics”. No troubleshooting required.
Yep. I think that going to bite right in the fourth point of contact on day, because nobody knows how to really troubleshoot and repair.
Need to slow my thinking down to my hunt and peck finger speed.
Should read: “…that is going to bite them right …
So do light bulbs give off photons, or do they absorb darkons?
Light bulbs are PFM.