Just What Is an Unarmed Man?
Much of black America and the liberal media are making a huge issue of the Ferguson shooting of an unarmed black man by a white police officer. We are being treated to endless live reports of rioting and looting, some of them detailing inflows of black and leftist agitators from around the country to keep the Ferguson opportunity hot and in full media focus. All of this comes out of a neighborhood shooting where, if the parties involved had their races reversed, the incident would have been merely local.
But what amazes me is the justification for all this upheaval: that a white police officer shot an unarmed black youth. I’m a white man who many decades ago was a military policeman – one who had frequent encounters with unarmed young black soldiers who all too frequently vigorously resisted arrest. Except that they weren’t unarmed for the simple reason that they were young and strong and possessed quick fighting reflexes honed on the hard streets where they were raised. Quite often they were larger than me or my partner, who also quite often was black – not that this racial relationship often meant anything at all to the perps we were trying to detain. And once detained, their usual fate was that we took them back to Fort Campbell and released them in the parking lots of their barracks without filing charges. It was not our mission to bring young soldiers more grief; the lives of enlisted soldiers were already hard enough back in the late ’50s. What we did try to do was to save them from their own bad actions.
But occasionally we did come upon a subject whose size and aggressive militancy required stronger measures, such as the judicious application of a nightstick. In those situations, did I ever fear for my life? Damned straight I did. Facing a much larger man, both in height and weight, who is determined not to be detained, you are praying that he’ll come to his senses and submit to arrest. Your gun is there at your side, but that is the last thing you want to introduce into such an encounter. But – and that is a very large but – that call is his.
And that is where I have tried to place myself in that officer’s situation in Ferguson.
The officer has a seriously damaged eye from a very hard, crushing shot from a very large fist. That indicates that the perp in this situation had the opportunity to throw at least one clearly damaging punch at the officer and effectively connect before the officer even could exit his vehicle. The severity of the damage to the officer’s eye and cheekbone indicates what could be expected from a sucker-punch from a 6’4” almost 300-pound assailant. And because I’ve been there and done that as a young man, there lies my problem with this media meme of the assailant being unarmed. The shoulders and arms of a 6’4” 300-pound man driving a large clinched fist render that fist a lethal weapon. Ask anyone who’s ever been on the receiving end of one. People are regularly beaten to death all around the world by such fists. Add to that the widespread availability of martial arts training in today’s society, and you can never be sure that any human you go up against doesn’t possess the ability to kill you with his bare hands, regardless of size.
And that, folks, constitutes a deadly threat against one’s person, which in most states nowadays justifies a deadly, defensive counter-response, whether you be a civilian or a law enforcement officer. Confronted by such a threat from any person – black white, brown, whatever – I’m going to defend myself with whatever means I have. If that means is a handgun, then I will discharge that handgun into that large oncoming mass, and I will continue to discharge that handgun until that large threatening mass is no longer oncoming and is very decidedly unthreatening. If that means dead, so be it, no matter how many times his family assures me he was a “good boy.”
Now, I ask you, what is not commonsense about that?
So, those of you so quick to condemn this Ferguson police officer for shooting an unarmed man might want to put yourselves in that scenario and wonder just what you might do with an exceptionally large, very angry, violently threatening man charging toward you with unknown intentions – plus the certain ability, by virtue of his size, to do you grave injury, even to beat you to death with nothing more than his large, hard fists.
Again I ask: just what is an unarmed man?
Crossposted at American Thinker
Please click on this URL to read, “WHY OLD MEN WEAR GUNS”.
http://writesong.blogspot.com/2011/12/why-old-men-wear-guns.html
Thank you.
It would seem to me that if the perp was able to deliver such an injury-causing blow and had already done so, he had already taken himself out of consideration as “unarmed”. He had the equivalent (at minimum) of a cop’s nightstick at the end of his arms.
Humans as a species are predators. Because of our large brain size, our ability to grasp objects, and our inherent savagery — if we’re breathing, we’re armed.
I’d like to add that the human body is capable of absorbing incredibly heavy damage without being forced into submission.
Simply put, a violent and aggressive, 6’4″, 290+ pound strong-arm robber is a lethal weapon, regardless of whether he is “armed” in the sense most people refer to. A broken eye socket certainly qualifies as “serious bodily injury”, and there are reports that the assailant tried to take the officer’s gun away, as well. If all these reports are true, the threshold for the use of deadly force had definitely been crossed, and it is completely understandable why the officer didn’t feel inclined to go another few rounds with the hulking behemoth who had already seriously injured him and attempted to disarm him.
Only one thing to say about this whole sorry episode. Duke Lacrosse.
I’ve been arguing about this with a total fucking idiot for the past 48 hours. This dickhead keeps saying that Brown was 20 feet away and surrendering. If the latter part of that is true than the cop shouldn’t have shot him, period. But that’s not the point the guy is arguing, he keeps saying that the fact that Brown was 20 feet away means he was far enough away to not be a threat regardless of whether he was surrendering or not. You can close 20 feet really quickly, even if you’re a big guy like Brown was. If he was charging at Wilson then Wilson was justified in opening fire, especially if this dude had already busted his eye socket.
11B, ask any NFL quarterback how quickly a 300 pound man can cover 20 feet.
I’m in my late 50s and I still play goal keeper on an open age soccer team against guys half my age….the penalty area is 18 yards by 44 yards…I am 6’4″ and about 250 these days….I can cover that 12 yard sprint from the 6 yard goal area to the edge of the penalty area in short order….often to the surprise of the younger, smaller man who is now lying on his ass just outside the area.
Physics has some pretty amazing, and finite, laws and at this point in my life I need to take advantage of whatever edge I can get.
300lb guys these days are faster and stronger than they were 20 years ago….and some of us old bastards aren’t quite done yet either…
My first concealed carry class was taught by a supervising instructor at Gunsite. One demonstration he gave: position a student, with a holstered weapon. Position individual two 20 feet to the right. Individual 2’s job is to wait for the buzzer then run at the student and tap him on the shoulder. The students job is to draw and fire one round onto a target before he is tapped on the shoulder. Nobody could draw and fire before being tapped. A couple people could start from low ready and fire before being tapped.
Twenty feet is nothing to a guy with a knife.
Years ago, while going through Security Forces training, we were taught that the average reaction distance between two people is 21 feet. Meaning that anything closer than 21 feet can easily be closed into grappling range before you can react if you are not prepared. IE in a hypothetical situation, if a perp has a knife and is closer than 21 feet, he can get that knife in your ribs while you are still trying to pull your sidearm out of the holster.
So while the kid in this instance was not armed, the cop was lucky that he had already drawn his pistol…assuming of course that his account of the events of that day are accurate, and the evidence does seem to support his claims at this point.
Smitty…Excellent point. Add to that, the officer was already reeling from a head punch that broke his eye socket. If other testimony holds true that Brown charged him after the officer was out of the car and yelled, “freeze”, then I would give kudos to the officer for recovering from the punch and keeping his wits about him enough to know he was indeed in life threatening danger and acted accordingly.
No. An an unarmed man is someone who is not holding a weapon. Just because someone is big and hits you doesn’t mean you get to blast them. You’re a trained Law Enforcement officer, deadly force should be the LAST resort. You’ve been trained to for these situations. You have less lethal options. You have a night stick. Subdue first. Just no.
Why did you leave the “Nothing” part off of your name?
Go to your local martial art dojo, and ask them to give you a real-time demonstration to you. You are not alone in your ignorance of real self-defense. I’ve got a hint for you: Hollywood fighting is make-believe that is practiced by highly trained individuals that take a lot of breaks and get paid huge amounts of money.
A night stick? What good will that do while your lying underneath a 300 lb man who is now beating you to death?
Unless you can bench press 300 lbs or have some good wrestling escape techniques you’re lying their dying with your nightstick pinned alongside your leg with your arms…
I’ve had people try to hit me with a baseball bat as a young man….when they are trying to recover from the swing that misses is usually when they get hurt rather badly, rather quickly.
Thanks for bringing absolutely nothing to discussion.
Right. Dr. Knownothing has obviously been in few, if any, encounters where life and limb were in jeopardy. In a violent encounter, shit can go south in a split second. A 6’4″ 300 pound raging man is definitely a lethal weapon. As a matter of fact, “personal weapons”, defined by the FBI as hands, fists, feet, are the third leading weapon used in violent crime. In a violent encounter, one is more likely to be beaten to death than clubbed or shot with a rifle or shotgun.
Watch TV a little too much?
Okay, pal. Jump into the octagon with Chuck Liddell or Randy Couture. He’s barefisted, you get your choice of nightstick or ASP baton. Let me know how that works out for ya.
Or, how ’bout we assume that a guy walking down the middle of the street just needs to be asked to get on the sidewalk, and not stopped and searched?
Actually, “DrKnow” – there are reports saying that is precisely what happened at first. And they go on to say that Brown and his friend at first refused – and then attacked the cop when he tried to get out of his car.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/missouri-cop-was-badly-beaten-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/
For someone using the screenname “DrKnow”, you seem rather . . . ignorant.
How about getting all the facts before leaving stupid comments?
Unpossible, he’s obviously a liberal who’s mind is already made up and will not be distracted by facts.
Case against your ineffective point. http://m.losangelesregister.com/articles/deputy-603601-lakewood-estrada.html
Jesus. Just when I thought VWP had taken a hiatus someone picks up his idiotic slack.
they’re everywhere, like ticks. Except not as fun and intelligent.
What the . . . ?
Oh – that says “ticks”. My bad. (smile)
↑↑↑↑↑ That’ll have to do until I find the “like” button, Climb.
If I were not carrying a weapon, would I be unarmed? Not according to the laws of the land. I am a second-degree black belt and can be charged with use of deadly force if I am ever in a physical altercation where the other party is considered to be “egregiously injured.” I know, it’s happened before.
Other side of the coin. If you were face-to-face with a 6’5″, 290 lb, man who was intent to assault you, would you wish to keep things even and trust that you are faster than he is strong?
One punch can kill you.
http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20140728/news/140728521/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2505111/Boy-17-killed-man-street-single-punch-going-friends-house-play-games.html
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/461772/Outrage-after-Lewis-Gill-receives-joke-sentence-for-punch-that-killed-Andrew-Young
You might want to be right, and you may be right somewhere but not in Colorado.
Repeating myself, my first concealed carry instructor was a supervisory instructor at Gunsite (if you don’t know what that it, look it up) and also a weapons sergeant for the Denver Colorado Police Department.
During the class he went through several shoot / don’t shoot scenarios. One scenario went like this:
I am a 75 year old guy and I hear a noise outside. I pick up a pistol and walk out to my driveway. There is a very large man stealing stuff out of the back of my pickup truck. I say, “Stop!” and he says “No!”, picks up some stuff and starts to walk away. Can I shoot him? Nope. I cannot use deadly force to protect my property.
Now suppose it is all the same except he says, “No! and I am going to beat your fat ass to death with my fists!” then starts to walk toward me. Different answer. I am old, small, and relatively weak. He is big and strong and, compared to me, that makes him “armed”. He has threatened to kill me. He is closing the distance. I can shoot him when he gets close. “Close” depends on the situation. If he is running probably around 10 yards. If he is walking probably about 6 yards. It all depends on the situation. And, I do not have a duty to retreat into my house before I fire. It might be a good idea from a legal perspective but it is not necessary.
You said, “An an unarmed man is someone who is not holding a weapon”. I understand that you might want to that be true and it may be true somewhere, but not in Colorado. Arms can be “arms”.
If he is big and hits me he gets blasted.
You Sir, are a fucking idiot who I hope has not reproduced.
When in Iraq (2004) with the National Guard, my gunner, who was a Police officer, warned us of the twenty foot rule. He stated that an individual with a knife, twenty feet away, could be on you before you could draw your holstered weapon. My gunner who was 6′ 2” and around 250 made believers out of us with his demonstration.
For those who might be skeptical, 20 feet = 6.67 yards.
Even a very large young man can often run a 40 yard dash in 6 seconds or less.
You do the math.
Around 2001-2, there was a shooting qualification test for Federal Air Marshals. Here is the link: http://www.thegunzone.com/fam-lawman/fam-qual.html Around 2003-4, my C.C. instructor said that the Feds weren’t using it any more and Gunsite wasn’t training it anymore. He told me unofficially that it was too hard — too many people could not qualify before traveling. Anybody who thinks that this is not a tough standard is welcome to try the first two lines – use a timer, use the QIT target (IPSC is harder). After about seven thousand rounds over two years and a crapload of draw and dry fire, I could do the draw and fire in under 1.65 seconds but about half the time one shot did not go where it was supposed to — almost always I was in the outline but not in the kill zone. I had less trouble with line two but double-taps are a perishable skill and I am not as young as I used to be. And my reloads suck. Suppose that I am a police officer faced with an assailant who has already hit me hard enough to break something in my face. My weapon is at low ready. He is much larger than I and he is 20 feet away. If he tucks his head and starts to run, I will bring the weapon up and start shooting. Going as fast as I can go, I figure I can get from five to seven .45 caliber shots off before I go down. That is what I think happened. The sketches and my guess matches up. Even the witness reports seem to line up. Unfortunately, no good will come from all of this. The people in Ferguson won’t be happy, the cop won’t be happy, the governor won’t be happy, the family won’t be happy — nobody, except maybe Sharpton and Jackson. But it should end. It already sucks a lot and wrecking more stores and hurting more people isn’t going to change anything for anybody it will just make it suck more. An 18-year old young man was shot and… Read more »
Richard: FWIW – assuming a 6 second 40-yard dash, 1.65 seconds equates to 33 feet. If the guy’s faster, it’s more.
I’m guessing you’re correct above in your assessment. And your recommendation is IMO sound as well.
For Dr.KnowNothing, it takes less time to cover 21 feet than it does to say, at normal pronunciation, one thousand and one.
We keep addressing the situation in Ferguson with logic. The fact is, the rioters don’t CARE what was done to the officer. They don’t CARE if the officer was attacked, or if Brown was a strong-arm robber. If the officer had been KILLED, they wouldn’t care. It would be easy to say what is happening there is racial, a hatred of whites, but it appears to be as much a hatred of authority as anything. I have wondered if we wouldn’t be seeing the same thing there if the officer involved was black?
Don’t think you would have had all the amped up “whitey killed Mikey” rhetoric in that case. Besides, this country and the black community specifically has shown for decades (see: Chicago, Washington DC, et al) that it really doesn’t care much about black on black violence.
Pinto Nag…The rioters could care less about Brown. The few peaceful demonstrators who showed up at first perhaps did. But the rioters…most would have killed Brown themselves if he crossed them for any reason, especially over money or drugs(just more of the usual, black on black crime). The rioters are there for one purpose, to steal something that isn’t theirs, under the pretext of “we’re mad that there’s no justice and we want ours and so we’ll take it. Burn down our own neighborhood? Cool, I got my big screen and all the Twinkies out of the convenience store. So what, it’s owed to me because I’m black and the government doesn’t give me enough anyway every month”. Thugs from as far away as California, showing up to “get theirs”. Yep, it’s really all about equality and justice for the black man isn’t it? /sarc/ No it’s about criminals taking the opportunity to be bigger criminals. Nothing more. As mentioned several times on this subject, if it had been a black officer and white or even a black suspect, so what, no news, nothing to see here. But the white officer and black suspect that was the racial trump card for the community and many from out of the community to do as they usually do. Loot, steal, burn and riot. I am only surprised there hasn’t been a Reginald Denny incident in Ferguson. By the way, what did Al Sharpton, The new (and improved) black panthers, and AG Holder bring to the party? A call for order and peace? A demand to take care of your own community and not destroy it? A call to protest peacefully, (as Martin Luther King would have)? No they brought more hate, discontent and excuses for the thugs to keep doing what they’re doing. They don’t help and didn’t come to help. the NBPP came to make a show. Sharpton came to get his ugly mug on the TV yet again. Holder came to show the phoney baloney idea that “Obama and I care about Ferguson, MO and as long as you guys… Read more »
An unarmed assailant is the one laying inert at your feet. Once he is down you can stop shooting. You don’t holster your weapon until he is secured. There are many cases of mortally wounded men who kill their opponent. In a fight for your life the other mans life is forfeit.
Right on !!!
It seems that the story of Officer Wilson being severely injured may be a lie. While I agree that someone the size of Brown could have, and may have done serious damage to the officer with his hands alone, (and one reason I carry a gun) that may not be the case here. I’m waiting to see the results of the investigation. But Poetrooper’s point still stands. A human being can do severe, even lethal, damage to another human being with fists and feet alone. It should come as no surprise that “personal weapons” (defined as hands, fists, feet, etc.) are the third most used weapon in violent crimes. Rifles, shotguns, and blunt objects (clubs, hammers, etc.) are used less frequently to kill than a persons body. That’s why I carry a gun in addition to a knife. Being wheelchair bound puts me at a distinct disadvantage in any encounter with a criminal looking to do me harm.
The link to Hoft is unfortunate as Hoft is a well known buffoon and liar, but depending on the nature of the orbital “Blowout” it might not be nearly as debilitating as it sounds.
Blowout in this case simply means one of the thinner eye socket walls (usually the floor or base) receives some level of fracture. If it doesn’t need surgical repair to regain eye motility it’s typically not treated with anything beyond monitoring to watch the healing.
Severe blowouts can prevent the affected eye from vertical movement up or down. Those require immediate surgical repair, as we are not hearing about a surgical repair I suspect the injury was far less serious than the fake x-ray at the Hoft link.
We may not have heard of any surgical repair, because of HIPAA. That said, who’s to know if there was TBI or a concussion?
Again, if Wilson didn’t consent to release of his medical info, who knows what injuries he sustained? I’m sure that the info will be leaked, probably sooner than later.
I read an ER doc explaining that they often do a preliminary diagnosis to justify xrays, catscans, etc. He says its possible that they listed “possible eye socket fracture blah blah” to get the catscan approved.
My wifes son survived this type of attack several years ago. A young, black “economically challenged” man made a bull rush at him while he was distracted by another party shattering his face, nose and orbital eye socket. The eye doc wanted to wait until the swelling was down before deciding whether or not to repair if he could, the eye socket.
We have all the photos, x-rays and reports if anybody wants to dispute the kind of damage done by these knockout punches…
That reminds me of the “knockout game” where young blacks blind side an unsuspecting white and try to knock them out with a single punch. Some have died from getting hit that single time.
In Hawaii a few years back an off island guy came to Oahu to check out the UH law school. One night he decided to camp on one of the local beaches in Nanakuli. Friendly guy. The next morning he got up and approached one of the Iocals to ask something. Not confrontational. Perfectly pleasant from all accounts. Well, the huge local didn’t like the haole being on his beach and he clocked him. ONE TIME. Killed him with that one punch.
Unarmed my ass.
All this bullshit can end tomorrow. Require all law enforcement officers, whether uniformed or not, to wear an audio/video device, as some departments are already doing, so that there will be no question one way or the other as to what happens in these types of situations. Had the officer been wearing one of these, it would already be a solved issue. It’s to protect the citizen as well as the officer. It’s not that expensive (probably less than maintenance on an MRAP) to outfit a department with these.
See the link I posted above, Old Trooper. The Ferguson PD apparently had recently ordered and received body and dash cameras but had not yet deployed them.
Well that just isn’t true.
The officer has serious bodily harm from being attacked. On top of that the scumbag tried to grab his weapon indicating deadly intent further.
Those are facts.
Want some more facts? The idoits out there still won’t acknowledge those two facts which clearly allow for deadly force to be used even if the person is “unarmed”.
The mob wouldn’t care if it’s on video tape. The mob wants to mob and demand shit regardless of what factually occurred. Just like the other day when some idiot with a knife ran at police telling them to shoot him. They did. What happened immediately? Blacks starting shit about how the police shouldn’t have shot him. It was on tape.
If you continue to take away their excuses, it makes it harder for them to garner sympathy. As I said in a previous thread; the black “community” in Ferguson is over 65% of the town’s population, and they complain that there are only 3 black cops on the force. Ok, elect one of your black leaders as mayor, vote in a bunch of your other black leaders on to the city council and you can be Detroit over night. They have the majority of the voting bloc, so get with it. They don’t want to, because then they would have to take responsibility for their actions.
They don’t have excuses already.
You can’t reason with these people. They already acknowledge they don’t want due process for the officer just emotional mob justice.
Quit trying to appease such human filth they are just destroying our society far better than any foreign enemy could.
I’m not trying to appease them, that’s for sure, but rather the ones who aren’t there that are throwing in with them.
THIS is an unarmed man.
(c’mon, you knew it was coming…)
NONE SHALL PASS!!!
One thing that stands out to me, and i think everyone will agree is that their needs to be a marked improvement in ‘less that lethal” methods and equipment used by police.
When assaulted at close range a cop has his hands, mace, nightstick, tazer and a firearm.
Mace and nightsticks can’t be deployed When at close range, and tasers either. Plus all are not garunteed to stop an assault.
Research needs to be done to figure out something better then what we have to protect both the police and civilians.
I think a vest/uniform that would shock anyone who touched it other than the officer wearing it may bear looking into.
Just throwing out ideas.
The problem with the TASER is that when you end up grappling with a 350 pound guy with a bad heart and tripping on coke, and he goes into cardiac arrest, they start bitching that the TASER needs to be banned.
And, if you pepper spray a coked-out, overweight man, sometimes he dies, and they start bitching that Pepper Spray needs to be banned.
To quote Chris Rock,
“STOP IMMEDIATELY!
If the police have to come and chase you, rest assured they are bringing an ass-kickin’ with ’em.”
Just one of many things sweet little baby boy Mikey Brown could have done to avoid his ultimate demise.
As far as “unarmed people” roughly 6% of murder victims in 2011 were done in by people without a weapon of any sort.
I admire Wilson’s discipline. Speaking as a former beat cop, an almost 300 lb man rushing me at full speed after he broke my eye socket would have rated the entire magazine.
Sad to say, his career as a cop, in that town at least, is more than likely finished.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I’m a short old guy with poor mobility, I would have reloaded.
Just What is an unarmed man?
A man with no arms.
I think the 20 foot rule is still to close.
Not sure if any of you have watched this, but I just did. It is video taken at the scene shortly after Michael Brown’s demise. At 6:15 of the video you can hear a person telling what he saw. There is a transcript of it below the video frame. If I had to guess, I would say that the shooting officer’s patrol vehicle might be the one at screen left.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e94_1408294281
As if you did not already have a reason to hate the Washington Redskins (racist name, they suck, owner is a dick, etc), we have this from Monday’s preseason game: http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/08/19/in-preseason-game-redskins-run-onto-field-with-hands-up-for-michael-brown/
The officer has a seriously damaged eye from a very hard, crushing shot from a very large fist.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2731311/Police-officer-shot-Michael-Brown-did-NOT-suffer-broken-eye-socket-did-hospital-swollen-face-deadly-altercation.html
CNN also had a report indicating that the officer did not break his eye socket….
Perhaps reports from a police force with known perjurers may not the most reliable source of accurate information regarding its own officers.
A federal magistrate ruled that if the officers had committed perjury about the bloody uniforms, the charges were too minor to press ahead with.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2726727/Ferguson-police-mistakenly-arrested-innocent-man-viciously-beating-charging-bleeding-THEIR-uniforms.html
So another judge determines that being a liar isn’t really a crime….I guess that is what speaks volumes about our society. First the supremes, and now a judge in Missouri deciding that lies told by cops who then file false charges are too minor to pursue.
Heck they didn’t even lose their jobs, but we have a post here about a guy who pretended to be a LTC and lost his job over being a liar. I guess his employer had far more integrity than the Ferguson PD.
Amazing stuff when you start looking at it. Support the cops, even when they are lying sacks of shit apparently.
VOV – Wouldn’t you think the FBI has to be complicit in this Davis case? Isn’t it their job to investigate police departments’ abuse of power, corruption, etc.? You’d think Holder would be all over this… but then again, Holder and the FBI might have some bones rattling in their closet as well.
Small town, nobody cares when there’s no noise it happens every day all across the nation.
I live in a very corrupt state, I see it all over here.
Cops do what they want and if anyone objects they have problems.
Small town politics are what they are, it’s better to go along to get along for most, otherwise you need to move to another community.
I live in Dallas. Not a small town. Take a look what’s going on down here y’all: http://www.dallasnews.com/news/metro/20140820-huey-p.-newton-gun-club-leads-open-carry-rally-in-south-dallas.ece
It is worth a look.