Two jets succumb to gravity in the Ukraine
It looks like yesterday a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter was shot down by the Russians, according to Reuters. It also appears that they may have shot down a Malaysian airliner over the Ukraine today, according to AFP;
“Malaysia Airlines has lost contact of MH17 from Amsterdam,” the airline, still reeling from the disappearance of flight MH370, said on its Twitter account.
“The last known position was over Ukrainian airspace,” it said, promising more details soon.
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said the jet may have been shot down.
“We do not exclude that the plane was shot down and confirm that the Ukraine Armed Forces did not fire at any targets in the sky,” Poroshenko said in a statement posted on the president’s website.
Regional officials in Donetsk confirmed the plane had come down near the town of Shaktarsk.
No reports of the number of casualties yet, though.
This all comes on the day that the US is planning new sanctions on Russia. According to the New York Times, those sanctions are a bit more than the Euro-wienies want a part of;
The announcement reflected a decision by Mr. Obama to take more stringent steps than those taken by the United States’ European allies, which have far deeper economic ties to Russia. Meeting in Brussels, leaders of the European Union refused to match the American measures and instead adopted a more tempered plan that blocks new development loans to Russia and threatens to target more Russian individuals.
The disparate moves suggested a widening gulf in the response to the crisis in Ukraine and may dilute the impact of the American actions. But both sides emphasized their continued solidarity on the basic demands that Moscow halt the flow of fighters and weapons across the border with Ukraine, support a cease-fire and help facilitate the release of hostages held by pro-Russian separatists.
I don’t think the Russians see a downside to anything they do now.
Category: Foreign Policy
I wonder what the “great one’s” tee time is today?
Or worse, what time is his free weight workout?
No time for golf today. First was cheeseburgers in Delaware, and a busy night of fund raising in NYC.
Everybody(media and others, certainly not normal folks)always talk about how bright he is, but I’m just not seeing it. I think the “Great One” suffers from Hussar Syndrome.
I’d agree with that, except I don’t think Hussar is quite as lazy as The One.
DT: based on his repeatedly failures to conduct even cursory research on a topic before commenting here, I’d have to disagree. But maybe I’m wrong.
Barry will hear it on the news when he tee’s off.
How long before Boeing is sued?
News now says the passenger jet was shot down.
According to one Ukraine Official today was the result of “insurgents” who were using a Guk Launcher.
I think we all know how those Insurgents are being supplied with personnel and technical advice.
And how many if those “insurgents” have current personnel files at a Russian army base somewhere?
Only special-agent Edward “the snowflake” Snowden can solve this mystery.
Don’t forget we have Ranger Robert “Ironbensh” Bensh on the ground in The Ukraine, but for some strange reason he hasn’t twittered since Feb. 19.
Meanwhile, France announced their sanctions today. They promised to export only their most inferior table wines to Russia.
It’s called sphere of influence, folks. And that’s as if this is actually the work of the Russians, and not some bullshit US funded “freedom fighters” doing dirty work and blaming it on someone else.
I mean…..we almost got dragged into a war supporting Al Qaeda in Syria over some trumped up BS.
Only you Hussar, only you.
Hussar does at least have a point concerning the mess that is Syria and the Glorious Leader’s demonstrated talent for picking the worst possible course of action in a given situation. That said, I doubt that that’s what’s going on here.
The Russians have shot down airliners before (so have we, albeit not as many), and Vlad is a ruthless bastard. Not sure what he’d stand to gain from this, and of course it’s possible that this was the doing of some trigger-happy Russian private who failed to check his target properly and is now getting his ass whipped (or shot) for it. Too early to tell just yet.
This is pure speculation (as is everything anyone else is saying at this point)
but my guess is the russians screwed up. They shot down an IL76 this week, and likely thought they were about to get another one. The size and spped would be close enough to f-up especially if the BUK was being manned by “seperatists” whose (russian supplied) training was less than extensive.
Now all we need is for Hillary to come out and say, “What difference does it make.”
Hussar, what brand of tin foil do you use when you make your “conspiracy hats”. You just LOVE to blame the U.S. and our military for all of the worlds ills. Unreal.
Tin foil? Yeah…ok.
No one is “blaming” the US, you dolt. Stating fact, like the US fully supported (and still supports) Al Qaeda in Syria, not to mention Libya and a few other places, isn’t “blaming” the US.
Why are you so protective of a government who actively supports those that kill Marines?
Why are you so unsupportive of your country? And please don’t bore me with any “dissent is the highest form of patriotism” bullshit. Cause in your case, you just seem to want to play the asshole. And damn if you aren’t ready to go pro. Dolt.
So tell us, professor, what exactly does killing a bunch of civilians do for the pro Russian insurgents?
You’re not enlisted any more. You can actually use your brain.
I don’t know there weeble, why do the goddamn idiots in the Gaza strip antagonize Israel?? We aint on the ground with them and do not really know their motivation. They might just be crazy.
And you are not a Marine any more. Thank God for small mercies
Hey Hussar, has it occurred to you that the separatists may have shot down the airliner accidentally, thinking that it was a Ukrainian plane. I know that you’re a shitheel with just a few marbles rolling around inside that head, but the plane was flying west to east, do the math…if you can.
It seems that the likely explanation, and what the early data is suggesting, is that they shot the plane down thinking it was a military cargo jet. Killing the civilians wasn’t in their plan, but that is what has happened.
MGySgtRet, Hussar is using his keyboard to strike back for the way he’s been treated, probably his whole life. He’s different, he’s not accepted anywhere, and he’s shunned. It hurts. And where it hurts the most is among the men he once admired most: in the military. But they didn’t accept him either, and his admiration turned to a seething hatred. Like any cancer, it grew from there, to encompass anything to do with the military, including our nation, and anyone who supports it anywhere. That is why he is here, to vent his pain and hate at the people who rejected him.
It’s a shame, really. If he wasn’t so sure he would be rejected and acted civilly, he WOULD have been accepted here. Instead, he came here with his arrogance, his snark, and his disrespect, and got exactly what he expected. It’s called “self-fulfilling prophesy.”
That is what pisses me off about the douche nozzle the most Pinto Nag. Has some valid points and opinions but comes on here and acts like he is the smartest fucker in the room and is schooling us yokels. A little respect would have gone a long way. And would have been returned in kind.
That’s part of it, MGySgtRet. The other part is that Hussar just isn’t as bright as he believes himself to be.
I think the term is “delusions of grandeur”. Or maybe in Hussar’s case when commenting here, “delusions of adequacy”.
From all EDP’s that I have helped and or arrested … “Renold’s Wrap” is the best, it maintains the desired shape and you can insert batteries anywhere you like!
Hussar must be buying that shit in bulk Master Chief!!
It only took a short amount of time to drag the conspiracy theorist like this idiot Hussar out of their closets again. All ranting and raving about everything being done by some vast conspiracy or another…
We get it, they are just weak minded people, incapable of accepting reality of the world we live in.
Still doesn’t make me stop wanting to curb stomp the next idiot that claims 9/11 was a US Government Op, or the victims of Sandy Hook were actually a part of some government conspiracy, etc… etc… etc… Because seriously, I do want to just pound the shit out of some of these idiots. Fortunately my brain actually leaves the elevator and I will think things liek that through first. Not a single one of them is worth jail time, but oh the thought of them curled up in a ball on the sidewalk….
Right…because using factual events, like the US supporting Al Qaeda in Syria and Libya equates to conspiracy idiot crap like 9/11 was an inside job.
Those both occurred during the current Administration. Yet you castigate those commenters here who think the previous Administration did a much better job in that respect. Many of those same individuals also thought US involvement in both Libya and Syria was/would be a bad idea.
Consistency in the positions you take doesn’t exactly seem to be one of your strong points, lad.
Conspiracy you say? 2D LAR was spotted crossing into Tennessee on a road march from Fort Knox to Camp Lejeune, so clearly they’re planning to overthrow the government. Or so says the moron who posted the video on faceboot.
Like I said below, this quote from Reuters indicates that both Ukraine’s army and the insurgents are blaming each other for the crash.
‘Ukraine’s armed forces and eastern Ukraine separatist leader Alexander Borodai both deny involvement in reported plane crash’ – @Reuters
So it may simply be a mechanical failure that caused this crash.
295 people – no survivors.
The GUK (SAM-11?) is some serious anti-air hardware. Do we really believe that a band of ad hoc militiamen crew such a launcher?
Really!?!
Not that Barry would notice.
Apparently they have. Early on there was a lot of military equipment stolen, and even more supplied across the border from Russia to include heavy armor and missiles.
How many backwards ass theocratic boy lovers operated Stinger missiles against Russian aircraft in Afghanistan?
Big difference between a Stinger man portable anti air Missle System and a Guk SA-17 anti air system.
Stinger range is what? 2-4 clicks? SA-17 40-50 clicks depending on model. The SA-17 is an almost direct copy of our Navy ‘ s Raytheon RIM-66 Standard family of naval missiles.
Interesting, and appreciate the info.
However, the jump in training vs technology comparison I used is applicable.
You may want to educate yourself then, because it’s real easy to point and shoot with a Stinger, even easier to train someone to do it.
A SA-17 System is a whole different ballgame involving multiple people to operate and be trained for.
We’re talking about people who literally could not read, or even begin to grasp the technical complexity (such as it was when compared to what they were used to.), to somewhat literate members of an industrialized society.
You’re right. Russian guerrilla forces are exactly like Muslims. Except for the way in which they aren’t.
These are the same forces that use Russian uniforms, equipment, vehicles, tactics, and arms. But, Russia claims they are not Russian forces.
There is quite a difference between trainng someone to use a MANPAD and training someone to use a track-mounted air defense system. With a Stinger, your not operating a radar, a vehicle, reloading missiles; or even maintaining any of that. You can teach an 11B how to fire a Stinger and be reasonably proficient at it. It takes an entire MOS producing school to teach a Soldier to operate an Avenger or BSFV.
Your 11B probably grew up learning how to read, write and operate a VCR.
Now compare that to a guy who grew up with no running water, and thinking some sky monkey actually helped him defeat his enemies.
You’re confusing “uneducated” with “stupid.” They are not the same.
Not at all.
It’s like taking two people who cannot drive, and teaching them how to do so.
One has seen a car before, seen someone drive one, etc…etc..
Vs..
Someone you have to explain to what a car is.
Hussar, so you are saying that the Ukraine is some 3rd world hell hole with no running water or educational system?
That is going to come as a complete shock to my co-worker who comes from there.
Are you really that stupid?
No. Try comprehension before you open your suck.
I’m comparing industrialized Ukraine to barbaric Afghanistan.
You seem to be the only one here who didn’t grasp that.
Barbaric Afghanistan…. Yes, truly barbaric, except for the most highly-skilled craftsmen in the entire world, who can duplicate from scratch any weapon brought to them, whether it’s an AK of any type or a 19th century sidearm. Just hand it over, pay them and tell them how many you want. They deliver on time, too. And then there are all those Afghans I saw on ‘Bomb Patrol’ (both seasons), driving vehicles of all sorts, including trucks. That’s in addition to their consistent ability to upgrade the explosive magnitude of the bombs they planted and the compression switches they built to detonate them as US vehicles passed over them.
Yes, the Afghans are truly a barbaric people. It also explains why they were able to hold the British Army at bay in the 19th century and later, in the 20th century, both Soviet and US Army transport convoys, in the same spots. Truly, they are an exceptionally barbaric people unable to comprehend the slightest things.
Besides, you’re post that “How many backwards ass theocratic boy lovers operated Stinger missiles against Russian aircraft in Afghanistan?” indicates that you think that anyone can operate a SAM-17 because mujahidin learned how to shoot stingers. Now, you’re saying that unless someone is literate, has clean water, and can work household appliances, there is no way they could shoot a SAM.
Which is it?
An SA-17 is a far cry from any MANPADS, Hussar. And far more difficult to acquire and operate.
And I’m not disagreeing with that at all.
Which makes it even more unlikely that this plane was shot down, by Russian (or related) forces.
What exactly would the Russians gain by shooting a civilian airliner down?
I’m neither pro-Russia or pro-Ukrainian. But we’ve been feed bullshit on what’s exactly going on over there from day one. Add to the the overwhelming propensity of the current admin to lie in attempt to engage the US militarily (Syria) where we don’t belong, and you’ll excuse me for smelling bullshit all over this.
I’m more inclined to think they made a mistake, as according to reports they shot down two other airplanes in the same area. One of which by all accounts was a contract plane carrying troops into the area. So could be they thought it was another plane carrying troops. And then there is historical precedent for the Ruskies shooting down civilian planes (KAL 007).
Ok…so let’s run with that…
This aircraft was well into its flight plan. So, it wasn’t exactly taking off or landing.
Now, if these were highly trained, technical operators, then one can assume their schooling would have taught them the difference between an aircraft flying at what….30-40k feet, at several hundred miles per hour, on a set (or what would appear to any tracker) course.
Or let’s assume they did think it was an aircraft full of troops. Why bring out the “big guns”, when the MANPADS they’ve been using until now have been effective, while “hiding” the Russian support of the insurgents?
Because if we’re to believe that this type of weapons platform takes serious support , then that brings us back to what does it serve the Russians to be shooting down civilian airliners?
The USS Vincinnes shot down Iran Air 655 (an Airbus A300) after mistaking it for an F-14 in 1988.
Pretty our operators were as highly trained and technically capable as anyones. Did we gain something from that incident since it obviously could not have been a mistake?
I once watched a Marine in SOI load at least 20-25 rounds into a magazine, backwards.
People do stupid shit. Considering Flight 655 was squawking a civilian and not a military code, and the ACS was also showing the aircraft climbing away from the Vincennes, I’d say there was all kinds of stupid going on that day on the bridge.
I’m sure mentioning that somehow makes me a Revolutionary Guard or soe thing like that.
And again I counter what did it serve the Russians when they downed KAL 007?
It also could be the case of someone having a itchy trigger finger and fired before they had positive ID on the bird. Example if the Russian adviser stepped out for a potty/coffee break and insurgent saw nice a big target and hit the fire button before confirming the nature of the target.
The USSR per se didn’t gain anything, Isnala. But the guy who ordered KAL007 shot down did. He later became the commander of Soviet Air Forces.
In contrast, the guy who was in charge of Soviet Air Defense 4 years later when Mathias Rust flew the Cessna to Red Square and landed was reportedly fired.
Thanks for history update, Hondo. Was just trying to illustrate that stuff like this has a history of happening with our Russian pals.
Agreed. The Russians do seem to be a bit paranoid when it comes to aircraft. Given their history, perhaps that’s somewhat justified.
I cannot make an educated determination on that.
I’m certainly not going to trust the Soviet version, but the USAF destroyed all documentation relating to the event, so there is no basis for academic study.
The only data destroyed by the USAF was radar tracking data. And that was only the raw data regarding KAL 007’s location – which is not in dispute. What remains is sufficient to show, in detail, what happens. And I’d be willing to be very long odds that summaries of the original USAF tracking data exist as well.
What remains? Well, for starters: the public interviews given by the Russian pilot who shot down KAL 007 in 1991 (Izvestia) and 1996 (NYT). And the US voice radio intercepts made public within days of the incident. And the documents released by the Russian Federation in 1991 showing that SAR efforts began almost immediately after the shootdown. And the two IACO investigations of the matter (1983 and 1993).
Collectively, these provide a substantially complete account of what happened. That’s more than enough for an analysis of what, if anything, the US and USSR might possibly have gained from the incident.
You might try doing a bit of homework before waxing ignorant, fella. I’ve found it works to prevent embarrassment.
Spoliation of evidence.
They destroyed evidence of an event of profound political importance, thus it is (legally) reasonable to infer that the USAF had some sort of consciousness of guilt to avoid the destroyed evidence.
Unless, of course, the items in question (1) are not known to be “evidence” of import at the time, (2) there is a reasonable explanation as to why the supposed “evidence” was destroyed – like a routine 24-30 hour tape reuse policy, as was in effect at the radar stations at the time – and (3) the item in question turns out to be immaterial anyway, as it later is shown by other, available information to provide nothing new. All three conditions are met here.
And spare us the “it’s still ‘spoilation’ of evidence” argument, please. A more proper term would be “loss of evidence”, which implies via accident or due to the fact that the item in question was not known to be of evidentiary value. Your choice of words here was clearly provocative, designed to imply wrongdoing on the part of the USAF and US government.
Seriously, Husar – do you sleep under a tinfoil tent to ward off the “satellite-beam mind-control signals” and spray vinegar to destroy “chemtrails”? And do you have an uncle named Dallas, Dennis, or Daniel?
Probably because a MANPADS wouldn’t even piss off a trip-Seven. Those are some big engines.
A quick review of the available public literature on MANPADS also indicates they all appear to have ceilings/ranges substantially lower than 10km (approx 33,000 ft).
The Russians have nothing to gain by doing this. If they did this, IMO it was due to an error on someone’s part – and I rather suspect that individual won’t be alive too long.
The Ukrainians have something to gain from this – but only if they can successfully convince the world the Russians did it. Get caught doing this, and they lose more than the Russians do.
I’m betting on a captured SA-17 TELAR being operated by a marginally-trained crew (possibly some former Russian army troops familiar with the predecessor system, the SA-11) trying to operate it and screwing up bigtime.
This article has some excellent interior photos of what purports to be a current SA-17 TELAR. It appears complex as hell. IMO, there’s no way someone without serious training “gets it right” on the first try, even if the equipment is working perfectly.
Unless it is a validation test of how “flexible” the current administration is.
Woopsie and here’s a joke probably told them all they need to know.
Sorry, forgot the link above:
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-9K37-Buk.html#mozTocId239351
What does the US have to gain from this? Am I correlating your logic correctly that the US used and/or supplied chem weapons in Syria so that we could then try to “go in” with an unbelievably small airstrike? Occam’s razor says WTF OVER.
BTW, I am unaware of a MANPADS system that uses radar for targeting. Given the 777 is a high bypass turbofan platform, I would think that for it to be hit at 33,000 ft. it was most likely hit by something using radar as opposed to IR.
You can’t be serious. That senile idiot McCain is already calling for war.
I doubt that will happen. That’s just McCain’s default setting when anything happens. This current administration won’t be starting up a war with anybody.
Picture that CNN showed from a tweet from Russian Seperatists bragging about capturing a Ukraining SAM last week seemed to show an SA-17
*Ukrainian SAM….spell check is my friend
Reports from AP say a SA-17 Guk launcher system (NATO Designation: Grizzly) was seen near a small village around the border with Russia the evening before.
Other reports from eye witnesses on the ground coming in support a ground to air launch with audible explosions and flight tracks of ground to air launches.
Serious hardware if those AP reports are to be believed.
POTUS is on the boob tube addressing this. Of course he said absolutely nothing of worth.
It’s generally called the “Buk” vice the “Guk”, actually. It was introduced as the SA-11/Gadfly. The improved version in service today is the SA-17/Grizzly.
Unlike the STINGER and other small portable systems, this one isn’t a MANPADS. Public sources indicate the missile is about 5.5m long, about 0.5m in diameter, and weighs on the order of 700kg. They also indicate that the Buk system generally is deployed in a configuration involving multiple tracked vehicles.
I’d guess it to be extremely unlikely a separatist militia would have it w/o a friendly government’s approval. In fact, I doubt either Russia or the Ukraine would release the non-export version to anyone other than their own armed forces.
Sorry, my dam phone auto corrected it Hondo. 🙂
Hondo, why is hussar die dummerhund harping on boy lovers now? Is he telling us something? Telegraphing his preferences, perhaps?
Thanks Hondo. That definitely aint fire and forget and is going to take a certain level of training to operate. I am suspecting either rogue elements of the Ukrainian military or Russian military since neither side is jumping in to claim responsibility and is just finger pointing as of now.
Addendum to my comment above: the one reasonably likely possibility where I could see a version being in the possession of a separatist militia would be capture. I guess it’s also possible the Russians could have supplied it, but that could pose some real problems for Russia if any of those involved were captured by the Ukrainians and “strongly interrogated”. So I’m guessing the latter didn’t happen. I could be wrong.
At least 20 Americans killed in the Malaysian Airlines crash. Of this turns out to be the Russians, and I think it is, then we need to bring the fucking pain.
According to this from Reuters, both the Ukrainian army and the insurgents are blaming each other for the passenger jet crash.
‘Ukraine’s armed forces and eastern Ukraine separatist leader Alexander Borodai both deny involvement in reported plane crash’ – @Reuters
It’s entirely possible that the plane had a mechanical malfunction and simply crashed.
It’s entirely possible that Hussar is VWP’s gay lover, too… but neither is very likely.
As much as I enjoy the extremely creative ideas coming from conspiracy lovers, I’d rather just wait and see what the real cause of the crash turns out to be.
Yea true, could be mechanical failure, but seeing the pictures, that plane broke up in the air, and not just big pieces either like you would expect from a wing or tail falling off. That wreckage suggests air breakup, which means explosion.
1 engine blowing up and taking the wing off would still leave larger pieces than what are being shown in the pictures.
CNN has video of the explosion on the ground. So if it broke up in mid air it was not a complete break up. Massive fire ball on the ground.
Okay, well, I do know that planes can break up in mid-air. I’ve seen it happen in person. It’s mostly from materials fatigue, crappy parts, and poor maintenance. There was a rash of air crashes in the 1980s caused by cheap parts like faulty rivets being used instead of the better quality.
For that reason, and because I see no value in bringing down a passenger jet that is clearly marked as a commercial airliner, I want to wait and see what actually happened to cause this.
If, on the other hand, some jackass in Ukraine on either side of that fence (insurgent or Ukrainian) was responsible for it, then he (or they) should be suitably punished.
The comparison was the mid-air fuel tank explosion on a TWA airlinerm, flight 800, on July 17, 1996 over Long Island. Conspiracy theories were everywhere, and it took 4 years of investigation to show that the fuel tank contained vapor that ignited.
The real news dropped at 11pm last night in which Obummer executive order banned the import of Izhmash & Kalashnikov Concern products to the United States.
I’m sure ammo manufacturers will be targeted next.
Thanks, Obummer…….
That was a part of the sanctions levied because of the Ukraine stuff correct?
If so, then it hurts the Russians because we, meaning the U.S., import a lot of AK items for our citizens.
I’m not trying to start a 2nd Amendment argument here, just stating that it hurts the Russians if indeed they are a part of the sanctions.
It only hurts US gun owners. It’s not going to affect Russia in any meaningful way and especially not equate to their policies being changed. This was very targeted sanction against imports leaving the real larger Russian imports alone.
It’s nothing but firearm ban by executive order under the guise of something else. Clinton’s executive order regarding Chinese AK’s is still in effect from decades ago. Even if Russia were to go 100% Merica freedom route I doubt it would be overturned.
You’ve given me my research project for the day. 🙂
I don’t know much about the issue, other than cursory knowledge, as I don’t own a weapon and focus my energies on other issues.
Not that it’s not an important issue, I just feel I can do good on other things.
It actually only impacts the companies that handle the financial transactions for imported AKs.
You need to go to Nicki’s blog, where she explains everything clearly. She should answer all your questions there.
http://thelibertyzone.com/2014/07/17/about-those-sanctions/
What I posted is correct. It’s an import ban. It’s stupid especially when the US government has been caught straw purchasing pissing off Germany yet again.
Nobody was claiming that pre-import ban weapons from those companies are now illegal.
Not exactly. You aren’t prohibited from importing AKs. You’re prohibited from dealing with the eight companies specifically listed on the SDN list. The idea is to impact these companies’ business by cutting them off from the US financial system. This has nothing to do with the guns themselves. You can import the firearms from other companies – just not the ones on the SDN list.
He signed the Executive Order banning the importation of AK47 and several other types from Russian Companies, Nicki. You are splitting hairs on this.
I’m not splitting hairs on anything. I happen to know the way sanctions work. There were eight defense companies that got sanctioned for very specific reasons – THEY ARE SUPPORTING THE VERY SAME SEPARATIST SCUM THAT SHOT DOWN THAT PLANE OVER EASTERN UKRAINE YESTERDAY. There are other companies that manufacture and ship these firearms. Nothing is stopping you from dealing with them.
And if you think that OFAC has a very loose set of standards for putting individuals and companies on the SDN list, you’re sadly mistaken. They have had these packages ready for weeks! And you know why the action was delayed? BECAUSE THIS ADMINISTRATION DELAYED IT.
These sanctions prohibit US companies and individuals from dealing with the eight defense enterprises and the couple of banks and such. Nothing is preventing you from buying or importing these firearms from elsewhere.
Try to actually comprehend the sanctions before you accuse me of “splitting hairs.”
Don’t believe infowars or other sites, read this for yourself:
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/OFAC-Enforcement/Pages/20140716.aspx
If I understand this correctly then Chinese or other imports of this type of weapon is still legal. The point is Obama used this crisis to specifically go after AK47’s. Where are the other sanctions?
Never let a good crisis go to waste
He went after specific manufacturers of the AK, as well as banks and other finnancial institutions.
It is not splitting hairs to say that he went after those specific companies, but it is exxagerating to say it was so that Obama could go after the AKs when the sanctions/bans do not affect the many other manufacturers of AK style weapons. you said it yourself… they can still be imported from other manufacturers, just not those deemed to be supplying the separatist in Ukraine.
Had Obama banned the import of all AK style weapons, then you would have had a point.
Not only that, but the administration delayed and delayed this action against Kalashnikov and others – probably for political reasons. We could have goddamn pulled the trigger on them months ago. If he was so anxious to go after the fucking AKs, you would have seen this list months ago.
Where are the other sanctions? Have you actually SEEN the list of entities and individuals that have been sanctioned under 13660 – 13662 since this Ukraine crisis started? Do you know why they were sanctioned? Do you know how much evidence and intelligence it takes to place an entity or individual on an SDN list?
Yeah. That’s what I thought.
Also thanks to Obummer’s latest Germany spying Germany has hauled the sale of Sig Sauer products to the United States due to the United States government being a fucking straw buyer for Columbia.
WTF, over.
Good thing
mymy friend’s new unfired .40 P229 Scorpion is all happy and secure in an undisclosed location. Did I say already that I don’t own any guns? Damn boating accident…It’s probably good news since SIG was ramping up US production anyway and this probably means all production is coming US side.
Guess I’ll be looking to a Saiga 12 alternatives now though. I’m scared to even check the prices now.
Occam’s Razor boys and girls. The russians or I mean “sepretists” thought they were shooting down another IL-76 moving west to east. THen they figure out they fucked up and fearing blowback they try to blame ukraine. That’s my guess it just ain’t that complicated.
Kinda doubt it, cmm. An IL-76 (or any other aircraft) 15km from the border and coming in for a landing nearby wouldn’t be at over 10,000m altitude – they’d be much lower.
I’m betting on the “someone just plain f-ed up” theory – e.g., someone in Russia engaged the wrong aircraft altogether by mistake, or a half-trained and out-of-practice militia crew operating a captured SA-17 screwed up and did the same.
IMO it’s highly unlikely that the Ukrainians did this. I’d say less than a 1% chance.
Russian TV (RTV) is claiming Putins A/C was in the same area at nearly the same time. I think his A/C is an A330 which would look similar to a 777 from the ground. Of course COL. Putin might just be positioning a chess piece or two… who knows where his A/C was, heading, and altitude.
RTV has now backtracked on their earlier story… now claiming Putin’s A/C was nowhere near. Also they are now showing a photo of a 4 engine IL96 A/C instead of the 2 engine A/C they were showing earlier.
I’d be skeptical of anything that comes from RT. I think Hondo’s line of thinking on this is probably about right, but who knows I could be wrong. Everything that I’ve read about this shit storm over there said that Russian are pulling the strings of these “Russian separatists.” While I don’t think they directly responsible I think they are complicit in one way, shape or form. More shit will come out. I think we can all agree that Zero’s response to this was abhorrent after 23 Americans died. Although, at this point it is what I’ve come to expect from him, so I shouldn’t be that sursprised.
Latest reports say the jet was engaged 35mi (approx 56km) from the Russian-Ukrainian border.
Public information (seem my previous comment giving a link to the “Buk” system) gives the max range of the system as 50km. So it looks like the missile wasn’t fired from Russian territory.
That is, however, well within Russian-backed separatist-controlled territory. Tends to reinforce the supposition that the Russians gave the pro-Russian lads one toy too many. (“Look comrade – it is flying 800 kph over 10,000 meters and civilian planes have been told to stay away – it MUST be a target!”)
David: that is indeed possible. I tend to give more credence to the “insurgents operating a captured Buk/SA-17” thesis, simply because the fallout for Russia resulting from exposure of direct complicity would be massive. But at this point, who knows?
Some of the arguments posed by others might also lend credence to that theory. If these were “simpletons” trained in the use of the high tech gear, they might no have had the knowledge to be able to run a computer identification of the target before firing. Even then, they had identified it, they could have sent the destruct command to stop the missile before it hit.
The Ukrainian forces would have that kind of training, but the separatists might not.
That’s was the reasoning behind why I said: ‘Comrad Advisor stepped out for a head call/coffee break and didn’t get back before splash 777’ earlier.
That is indeed IMO possible. Or maybe went downtown for a bit of lunch and/or a quick short or two of vodka.
Most likely from all the evidence tha tthis was from a captured SAM used by the “Separatist”… Putin himself in his attempts to mitigate the blame has said it is all the Ukraines fault because they are the ones causing all the problems there… if they would just let him… I mean the separatist have what they want, none of this would have happened.
The “Separatists” led by a Russian and armed with Russian weapons initially released a statement crowing about shooting down a SECOND military plane. When it became apparent that they screwed the pooch bigtime they rescinded the press release and blamed Ukraine for it.
Russia immediately grabbing the black box and whisking it away to stop any investigation should be a signal as to what they think happened. Why in the hell is Russia on Ukrainian Soil in a position to get this almost 40miles west of their border? I thought Russia said they had no troops or people there?
Satellite photo, B-2, a load of J-DAMS, and “we don’t know anything about about any explosions in the eastern Ukraine”. When in doubt, take em out!
So now it isn’t 100% that there were any Americans on board. You know, because obtaining a flight manifest is so hard.
If media outlets, and apparently the State Dept, can’t even get basic facts like that straight….
Well, considering (1) the flight originated from outside the US, (2) Malaysia Airlines has the passenger manifest and is thus the current source of nationality info, (3) they haven’t released the manifest yet pending NOK notification, and (4) as of last report, 41 of the passengers’ nationalities had not yet been confirmed – no, I don’t find that unusual at all. In the early stages of a situation like this, errors are common. Just ask Malaysia Airlines how it went for them the last time they lost an aircraft.
Media organizations often go off half-cocked based on rumor vice fact. And while DoS can lean on US-flagged airlines to produce info in such a situation, they don’t have the same leverage with foreign airlines.
After the last incident regarding their missing airliner, it also stands to reason that Malaysia Airlines would be damned careful about releasing info this time around.
Geez, Hussar. I would have thought all of the above was pretty damn obvious. Apparently it wasn’t to you.
C’mon, Hondo…You are the standard issue yokel around here. You can read between lines, especially when it’s glaringly obvious.
The point of pointing out that there were no confirmed Americans on board, yet, was to show how fucking stupid it is to screech “the bombing starts in 5 minutes” before knowing all the facts.
Something a few of our politicians, and usual suspects here, have already done.
Edit: that should be, “aren’t the standard issue yokel.”
Not even a “good try” for that pathetic attempt at a retort, oh young and confused one. The media got it wrong because, well, that’s what they do a big chunk of the time. DoS got it wrong because they didn’t have all the info and were going on what they had at the time – which turned out to be wrong, and was probably based on media sources anyway. Politicians started calling for action because most of them are at heart attention whores and that’s what attention whores in office do – publicly call for “action”. (You of all people should recognize that last.) As for the commenters here, there aren’t many regulars who have called for US military action. Most regulars here realize that what the US can do in the eastern Ukraine that would be effective falls squarely between “diddly” and “squat”. Most of the rest IMO are simply blowing off steam and expressing disgust with our ineffective current Administration vice seriously calling for action. Let me ‘splain it to you: unless something’s changed since earlier today, the only organizations who know right now precisely who was on that plane are almost certainly Malaysia Airlines and (maybe) the Dutch government, and perhaps a few intel agencies worldwide. The first is treading extremely lightly, and isn’t exactly known for their competence in handling lost-aircraft scenarios. Due to numerous recent faux pas by the current US Administration, the Dutch government is IMO just as likely to tell us to go pound sand up our collective rectum as hand over the passenger manifest for MA17 – if they even have it, that is. And the intel agencies won’t be talking about this publicly any time soon. Sheesh. If you seriously believe there’s some “deep conspiracy” at work to keep the manifest hidden, you need professional help. IMO the only conspiracies at work here were (1) maybe a conspiracy between Russia and the east Ukrainian separatists to provide them technical assistance with a captured Buk TELAR, and (2) the typical conspiracy of idiots making a series of mistakes leading to disaster.… Read more »
Hondo, you’re wasting your time on that misogynistic clowndog.
If there is some collusion, it’s between Russia and the separatists. There was a brief video of a truck with a Russian BUK launcher and one empty slot on the news this evening. It wasn’t a ‘sample of’ video, it was an amateur type of video shot with a smartphone or something.
Here’s an article from New Republic, with embedded links to sources provided by the author.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118742/ukraine-russian-rebels-malaysian-airlines-plane
When she says that Vlad Putin started something in Ukraine over Crimea and lost control of it, she makes a good point. It also may explain why the plane’s black box disappeared so quickly.
Russian State media also reported that a Ukrainian BUK unit deployed to the region the day before the airliner was shot down.
Let me guess…..that report doesn’t fit your view of things, so it’s clearly state propaganda, huh?
What?
The article comes from a Reuters news link. There are links to sources embedded by the writer in the article.
Frankly, since I have a news feed to Reuters and to Agence France Presse, If something shows up that is worth adding to the discussion, I see no reason to not include it as an added resource.
I have no idea what you’re trying to say, but you do seem to have a hair up your bony ass about something. Perhaps you can enlighten us AS TO the real cause of your disdain.
See below, Ex-PH2. Hussie-boi was trying to use your article to prove a point and – as he seems to have a propensity for doing – got the basic facts on which his point depended wrong.
I know, Hondo. He likes to pick a fight over nothing, mostly by getting half of the information, getting half of that right, and going with half of what he got right.
Here’s something additional from the BBC News:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28357665
There’s a change of people going on with the European Union, also, which may or may not be affected by this incident. There is a lot of unrest in Europe in general, which started long before this incident but seems to be picking up.
What affects them actually does affect the US. Walgreen’s has its corporate headquarters here. There was talk this week of moving that head office to Europe with the acquisition of a major Euro company. That would mean a large job loss here. This incident could change that.
I’m trying to find more. I’ll see what I can do.
Do you really believe Russian State TV? Talk about propaganda. Just tell us what you believe happened. Your nihilistic approach to things is tiring.
Hussar
The photographer used a link who sited Russian State media as a source.
I used that to prove a point.
Which you clearly missed.
Interesting. Last time I checked, photographers take pictures vice cite links. Authors of articles do, however, cite links. And in this case, they also ID those links – and implicitly warn you to take them with a grain of salt.
FWIW: the basic article you appear to be referencing here (e.g., the New Republic article cited by Ex-PH2 above) credits the lead photo as follows:
Photo: DOMINIQUE FAGET/AFP/Getty Images
Perhaps Climb to Glory wasn’t the one to “miss something”, lad.
Sigh…I was referring to the (ex) photographers mate who posts here like she knows something about anything.
Hussar … I will warn you again. If you want to be pithy that is OK.
But if you think anyone here will stand for you childish smarter than thou attitude, while taking a shot at any TAH Lady … You are WRONG!
Not exactly buying that, Hussar. But assuming you’re not dissembling again, I’d recommend in the future you express yourself in clear, unambiguous English – if you can, that is. That leads to far fewer misunderstandings and makes you look like less of a half-educated youth.
And I’d think even you could understand the difference between citing a source as Gospel and citing it with a clear (if implicit) caveat emptor. The article in question did the latter – not the former, which is what you’re falsely implying.
How about you try to make an argument based solely on fact vice shading the truth or dissembling to support your point?
Jesus Christ, it’s like pulling teeth with this guy. Just answer the question. What do you think happened. You seem like a guy with all the answers, so just enlighten us on what really happened.
I’m expecting him to tell us Israel did it, with the help of the CIA of course. It provided the distraction for their ground offensive don’t cha know.
Then why is OSCE blocked from acquiring the black box?
‘OSCE official says inspectors asked for black boxes at Ukraine plane crash site but were told nobody could say where they were’ – @CNN via @NBCNewsEnd of alert – 7-18-2014
This thing stinks and starting to smell worse by the minute. Not to Hussar of course. He’s not buying any of this shit. He knows exactly whats going on here. If only someone would listen to him. Hussar:
This is an additional article, regarding Merkel’s response to the incident.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/us-ukraine-crisis-merkel-idUSKBN0FN0YQ20140718
I read this art earlier. Merkel left POTUS appearing weak, while challenging Putin and announcing to the world her power in Europe to bigger than O’Bama’s.
Our Nation’s security is at great risk today.
Ya think?
This is from The Telegraph.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/concoughlin/100280627/malaysia-airlines-plane-crash-how-do-we-deal-with-a-pathological-liar-like-vladimir-putin/
We already know what happened.
Now it is up to the country(s) with the answer to challenge Putin.
In situations like this one could ask, “what would Reagan do”? You could even ask, “what would Jack do”?
Clearly, no Belt Way Bandit thinks like that anymore … That is, looking back in history to see how we as a strong Nation responded.
But, what do I know?
Hussar … You bore me!
And KMRIA!
Try puttin’ a little Irish on it, Master Chief.
Póg mo thóin. Imeacht gan teacht ort.
And, while Rome burned, Nero fiddles.
Or, should I say, while the world burns, 0bama campaigns.
Have had similar thoughts. For one thing, it’s already been done. But, Obama seems intent on outdoing Nero.