Army needs a new pistol

| July 3, 2014

Fox News reports that the Army thinks that it needs a new pistol. I remember about thirty years ago when they bought that Beretta thing that they were so proud of, replacing the 1911 .45 caliber with the Euro-wienie 9mm. Meanwhile, special forces-type troops have been turning back to the 1911 for it’s hitting power and dependability. The Marines just bought one a few years back for their special operators. The Army doesn’t need a new pistol, they need the old one that dominated in the 20th Century. From Fox;

The [Modular Handgun System or MHS] will be an open-caliber competition that will evaluate larger rounds such as .357 Sig, .40 S&W and .45 ACP.

The FBI and several major police departments recently decided to return to using the 9mm round after finding that .40 caliber ammunition was causing excessive wear on its service pistols. The heavier bullet and greater recoil over time resulted in frame damage to well respected makes such as Glock and Beretta, according to Ernest Langdon, a shooting instructor and respected competitive pistol shooter who has worked for gun makers such as Beretta, Smith & Wesson, and Sig Sauer.

“Most of the guns in .40 caliber on the market right now were actually designed to be 9mm originally and then turned into .40 calibers later,” Langdon told Military.com.

Yeah, I just bought a 1911 today that was manufactured by Remington Rand which only made 1911s from 1942-1945, so it’s about 70 years old and there is no unnatural wear on it. It still shoots straight and doesn’t malfunction. The Fox article goes on to tell the story of a Chicago cop who had to shoot a criminal eight times with a .45 to put him down. I’m thinking that rounds 6, 7 & 8 were passing through gaping holes. But, the lesson of the story was supposed to be that more rounds is better than bigger rounds. Or Officer Chicago should spend more time at the range.

The Army should stop wasting time and money on searching for a new handgun when the whole world knows how it will end up – the 1911 met the requirements for combat through most of the 20th Century wars and it withstood the test of time.

Category: Big Army

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ChipNASA

Why not this…..

HS Sophomore

Of course. The revolver I’ve nicknamed “the bullshit carpal tunnel disability claims maker” in anticipation. Excellent choice.

Spade

Or the Army could realize that all pistol rounds pretty much suck equally well. There’s a number of lovely graphics out there showing that there’s not a ton of difference in your actual (not anecdotal) terminal effects from pretty much every pistol round.

But I’m sure another acquisitions cluster fuck for this issue where I bet nothing actually gets bought is fun too.

The only way the DoD is going to get any better performance out of any pistol round is to stop using FMJ. But they won’t, so we’ll either get an expensive nothing or an expensive change in logistics that still won’t magically stop people in one shot.

Unless they open it up to the Serbu Shorty.

Old Trooper

The rules (Geneva Accords) say FMJ.

Sparks

And since most of the folks we shoot at are terrorists these days, who as we all know are all on board with the Geneva Accords, I say screw them and use hollow points. If we are fighting an enemy who abides by the Geneva Accords then we will abide accordingly. Otherwise, whatever works best to stop and kill a jihadist is good in my book.

Al T.

Geneva Accords deal mainly with POWs, nothing to do with firearms. What you are trying to quote is the Hague Declaration, which we didn’t sign anyway.

Alberich

Specifically it’s the 1899 Hague Expanding Bullets Declaration – there’s a good article about it by Joshua Berry in the Military Law Review in 2010, here. (Per footnote 14, you’re right that we didn’t sign it, but have been adhering to it for years anyway.)

The Geneva Conventions (of 1948) are the treaties that deal with POW’s, treatment of civilians in time of war, treatment of the wounded and sick, etc. (The “Geneva Accords” are several specific peace plans, such as the one that was supposed to settle the question of Vietnam in 1954.)

Old Trooper

Look, cut me a break, I’ve been a little busy the last week and I have a lot on my mind. At least I knew what the hell it was about, even if I didn’t get the right convention. The premise was the devastation caused by the new hollow point ammunition was “uncivilized” and therefore needed to be banned from the battlefield. Even if we didn’t sign it, we abide by it. We currently treat non-uniformed combatants as POWs and give them all the benefits of such status, even though we could legally gut them like a fish and call it good. We currently treat them better than our own Vets.

FatCircles0311

JHP aren’t magic rounds even if they appear that way in ballistic gel testing.

Penetration matters especially when you’re talking about fatty dingdong countries with obesity problems.

Just sayin…..

Climb to Glory

I like the .357 Sig, but I think it will be out of the running. I shot one for the first time last year. It has some pop to it. Every time I see at the store its more expensive than say, the .45 ACP rounds. Maybe you guys can enlighten me about the prices you guys have seen.

teddy996

You are correct about the price. But more importantly, .357 Sig is a high pressure round. The fact that they are considering anything in .357 Sig when they’ve complained about the .40S&W causing too much wear tells me that they are idiots.

All automatic handgun rounds are relatively the same for stopping power, with few exceptions. Why not go for the low pressure .45ACP, or stick with the high capacity of 9mm?

H1

Got a 92FS to get familiar with the M9.
Not bad but, I miss the cannon.
The M1911A1’s we had on sea duty had been there forever but continued to do their job, every day.
Would like one of the new Ruger 1911’s.
Look pretty robust.

Old Trooper

After much internal debate, and a little ribbing from Jonn, I purchased a Para USA Expert Commander, this past Winter, to replace my Springfield XDm .40. Love it, love it, love it! My wife shoots it, also, and loves it. I am now firmly ensconced in the 1911 camp for the foreseable future.

I have always been hesitant on the 1911, since my Army days, but with Jonn’s advice and insight, he converted me and I’m glad.

Ex-PH2

Is this about brand name or size?

What’s wrong with a .38 pistol?

Old Trooper

It’s not about name, other than there are many manufacturers of the 1911 style pistol.

As for the .38……………………….That young mother in Georgia wmptied her .38 into the bad guy home invader and he was still able to leave the residence, get in his car, and drive away. Granted, he didn’t go too far, before running into a tree, but it could have been a little kid instead of a tree. 8 rounds of .45 personal defense loads and the bad guy wouldn’t have made it to the door.

streetsweeper

Do believe that young mothers revolver was loaded with target rounds and why the suspect made it out the door.

FatCircles0311

Oh God, please.

Not the “target rounds” nonsense. FMJ kills people just as well as hollow points, in fact better because people aren’t made entirely of ballistic gel.

David

Ask the folks in the Phillipines back in the late 1800s who were armed with .38 Colt revolvers… the Moros took multiple hits and kept on coming. Big holes stop people slightly better than little holes (and the difference is surprisingly minor.) Big bullets by their nature open up big would channels, so can be going relatively slowly and still be lethal. Little bullets have to be going much faster to do the same damage, which means higher velocities and pressures. There is a relatively narrow range of recoil where most people are comfortable, and many rounds like .357 Sig can exceed that range. And of course politically you have ‘what do our allies use?’ questions for interoperability purposes. It ain’t a simple “just use XXX and all will be rainbows and dead enemies” question.

Instinct

My dad got a Rock Island Armory 1911 and states that it shoots better out of the box than his Kimber does.

John S

I was lusting after the SR1911, but the area gun shops didn’t have one available. Instead, I picked up a Remington SR1911 stainless.

Aside from the front sight needing adjustment and some rough-looking casting, it’s a nice pistol for the price.

2/17 Air Cav

“Leave the 1911. Take the cannolis.”

Sparks

2/17 Air Cav…ROTFLMAO! Thanks my man I needed that! I agree. Keep what has been a proven success and start using hollow points against terrorists. They don’t play by the Geneva Accords, so why should we?

Mr Wolf

The worst part of the M9, aside from the puny round, is its double-stack mag. The 1911, being single-stack, was more comfortable, slimmer, and less cumbersome.

HOWEVER, if they do go away from the current M9, I will miss having 30-rd mags in it. That made for some really big eyes in Iraq…

ByrdMan

“You have to shoot people a lot with a handgun.”

Not if you shoot them in the right place.

The Other Whitey

The original 1911 torture test would have broken even the “product improved” versions of the Beretta 92, which was never intended to be a true fighting pistol anyway, as Italians consider sidearms to be status symbols, not weapons.

1911s work, period. And they have better ergonomics than a Glock or a SiG (HK ripped off the 1911’s ergonomics). They are the closest thing to an idiot-proof auto pistol, as you can’t break them and can’t AD them either. Pistol rounds don’t beat rifle rounds, but .45 fails a lot less as a manstopper than 9mm does. And it doesn’t take much to “modernize” the 1911, just some Novak sights, beveled mag well (not the big race gun funnel), (maybe) a widened ejection port, and (maybe) a rail on the frame. Otherwise, you can trickit however the hell you want to fit your own needs and comfort.

The new trend in issued weapons for armies all over the world is to make them adjustable and moddable to each individual shooter. Why not just issue an updated 1911 (call it an M1911A2) with the aforementioned changes, and give each troop the option to purchase/obtain and install their own custom parts, such as grips, ambi safety, mainspring housing, or delta hammer (partial to the GI spur hammer myself, but it doesn’t fit every possible application). The base weapon remains the same, and each user can make minor, easily reversible changes if they need to, or leave it alone if they don’t.

HS Sophomore

So, does the army “need” this new pistol in the same manner in which they “need” four major uniform changes in the past twelve years (or whatever the number is now)? Just curious.

Sparks

HS Sophomore…No they don’t. They have one that works well and has a long history of success. This is some idiots pet project in some senior staff position trying to make a name and his next rank. It’s BS just like when they decided the Beretta was going to be all the new rage and we see how that worked out.

FatCircles0311

It’s almost a 30 year old design. Pistol tech has improved significantly since then. To be honest they should have done this a decade ago.

The US Army didn’t “need” a carbine to replace a rifle either.

Blaster

I have a 1911 and a 92S, like both, but would rather have the .45 when life depends on stopping power.

xbradtc

I love me some 1911, but I’m going to be heretical here for a moment and also admit to really liking the Glock 21.

Sparks

xbradtc…Okay since you opened the door to heresy, here’s mine. I do love my 1911 but I also love my Glock Model 30. It is a good concealed carry weapon and has served me well on the range.

Pinto Nag

I love the 1911 above all other pistols, but switched to a Glock .40 for one reason: I won’t own a gun I can’t clean, and I was never able to break down the 1911 and put it back together again. No matter what I tried, I wasn’t strong enough in my hands. So I switched to the Glock.

The Other Whitey

There is an alternative method for disassembling the 1911 (which is admittedly kind of a pain in the ass).

Push the slide back until the slide release meets up with the takedown notch. Remove the slide release, then seperate the slide/barrel group from the frame. It also has the advantage of not launching your recoil spring or plunger across the room if you get distracted. If your hands can cycle a 1911’s slide, you can use this method.

Richard

PN: there is a device called a bushing wrench that helps twist the bushing out of the way and allow controlled release of the recoil spring plug. You can use the same device to make it easier to replace the plug and twist the bushing back into position. I can usually do it with my fingers but I have launched a few spring plugs around the room so I use the wrench. I have both steel and plastic ones.

My better half has an issue racking the slide on a 1911. The common approach is to pinch the back of the slide with your left hand, pull back with your left and push forward with your right. That is difficult to do at all, even more difficult to do when under stress, and encourages “riding the slide” – a very bad habit.

The solution: reach over the top of the weapon so that when you rack the slide your hands are pressing toward each other. With your left hand pinch the rear of the slide between your thumb and index finger. The barrel should be pointing downrange and your left forearm will be more or less above the muzzle. Push the strong hand slightly forward (downrange) and push your weak hand backward, toward your right bicep. When the recoil spring is fully compressed, release your left hand. The spring will push the slide forward, it will pick a round off the top of the magazine, chamber the round, and go into battery.

This works for me, YMMV.

The Other Whitey

You’re a Glock fan? That’s cute. Does your husband also shoot?

Sparks

The Other Whitey…Hey now. Some of us got feelings you know. 😀

The Other Whitey

Sorry, couldn’t resist. I have a cousin who’s a Glock nazi, and I hit him with that one every time we go shooting. He pulls his six different glocks, I take out my three 1911s (GI, Springfield MILSPEC, and Kimber TLE RL2 that I modded myself) and tell him that Tupperware belongs in the kitchen 😉

Sparks

The Other Whitey…”Tupperware belongs in the kitchen”. LMAO. Good one.

The Other Whitey

The Nazis didn’t surrender to the Rubbermaid corporation!

Sparks

Jonn…I agree with what you saying. That is why for concealed carry I not only like the Glock 30 but I spend a lot of time on the range with it. The shorter barrel could suck at distance but for my purposes, it is intended for up close and personal encounters. Within 25 yards I am good to go with it. Feels better in the SOB where I carry it.

jimmy mills

I second that , the more I shoot the Glock 21 the more I like like it. 13 + 1 capacity isn’t bad either. Big , but what difference does that make if it’s for military use not civilian concealed carry?

Veritas Omnia Vincit

They don’t need a new pistol they just need to go back to the old tried and true pistol of my days humping the m-60….the 1911 sidearm was very nice indeed.

The damn thing always works too….never had a problem with that weapon.

Sparks

VOV…So you had to hump the “pig” too! Ah, the memories.

A Proud Infidel®™

I humped one during my AD Army days, LOVED THAT PIG!!

ChipNASA

Bust these back out……

The Other Whitey

America! FUCK YEAH!!!

CC Senor

Step 1: Dig a very deep hole…..

Ex-PH2

How about a 15MT detonation right smack dab in the middle of the ISIL landgrab?

O-4E

Been to where that was launched from…and did rad monitoring where it landed. As well as several other GZ spots at the Nevada Test Site. What tripped me out about this particular Davy Crockett test were the bleachers set up for viewers on a little rise about 200 meters from the launch area

FatCircles0311

Massive 1911 circlejerk alert. The smell of bengay is almost overwhelming, guys.

1911’s are such an obsolete combat pistol it makes sense the Marine Corps picked it. Just like most things in the Corps they went for appearance over results.

I’ve never heard about so called “excessive wear” with .40 handguns either. I own a .40 sig myself but maybe they are basing their results on 20+ year service pistols having to be repaired because they believe basic maintenance shouldn’t be basic?

Anyway, time to catch up with the times and that means, polymer frames with high capacity. None of that nonsense of sub 10 rounds in a full sized pistol.

I love .40 myself, but since cost isn’t an factor for the government the .357 sig looks even better. No way I’ll believe them choosing the .45 again because of recoil issues with their snowflakes even when there are capable high capacity .45’s around now.

FatCircles0311

I forgot.

Real question is whether they will stick with the DA/SA or go for SA striker fire design.

OWB

At least there are now lighter weight, easier trigger pulls for the aging among us. If any of us was in the market for such things. Like my favorite would be a Sig P228 replacing the old, reliable S & W .38’s, on either a J or K frame. But there are so many alternatives these days. If I had to choose one, what would it be? You know, if I really wanted a gun.

FatCircles0311

Well first off you should consider a 21st century polymer rather than full metal dinosaurs that are ridiculous expensive. Sig has been making polymer for awhile and they are the same sig quality. Sig Pro series is basically a p226 but in polymer.

They release the p320 which is their newest poly but it’s strike fired with changeable everything. The trigger group is the gun and can be completely removed and replaced into new frames without any ffl restrictions/paperwork. It’s pretty neat especially when you can buy a single trigger group and multiple frames/slides to change from full size to compact carry within seconds without having to spend nearly as much on two separate pistols.

OWB

Let’s just say that a 228 was a gift and I put a LOT of rounds through it, so would be quite comfortable with it, except for the weight carrying it all day, for instance. Fired one not long ago and it is still a very sweet firing machine. No strain on the arthritic hands at all. Can’t say that about a few revolvers which had been so comfortable firing in years past.

Thanks for the insight on the new 320. My criteria would be, in this order, ease of firing, ease of carrying, compatibility with ammo already in the neighborhood, then finally price. As frugal as I am about everything, any new purchase here would be purely for close in personal defense, when my life (pardon me if I consider it my most valuable asset) is seriously in danger. There is no price tag on that.

Just an Old Dog

A non-issue.
It doesnt matter what pistol higher ranking S/NCOs or Officers carry around sp a rifle don’t get in the way.
Its about most ass in the DOD getting his palm greased by some company who wants a contract.

Richard

“The Fox article goes on to tell the story of a Chicago cop who had to shoot a criminal eight times with a .45 to put him down.” I think they missed a word. The word “at” should be between the words “shoot” and “a”. If a cop put eight .45 ACP rounds into a perp’s center mass (even ball) and he was still upright, that dude is really high on something and the cop needs to switch to a crew-served weapon.

Richard

replying to myself … mumble …

I checked the original Fox article. It says,

“I talked to a Chicago cop that shot a guy eight times with a .45 to kill him and that was a 230 grain Hydra-Shok,”

Eight times with 45 ACP hydrashoks? Maybe I had to be there – that doesn’t sound right to me. With those gaping holes, his blood pressure had to be close to zero somewhere around shot four or five. Maybe he just kept shooting, just to make sure? Very heavy coat? Does anyone know about this story?

If that perp tolerated eight .45 ACP hydrashoks before expiring, I wonder how many 115 grain 9mm rounds it would take to stop the threat?

MK75Gunner

and then you have this guy….

York had just fired the last round of his clip and didn’t have time to reload, so he whipped out his Colt M1911 .45-caliber service pistol and opened up on them:

“I teched off the sixth man first; then the fifth; then the fourth; then the third; and so on. That’s the way we shoot wild turkeys at home. You see we don’t want the front ones to know that we’re getting the back ones, and then they keep on coming until we get them all. I knowed, too, that if the front ones wavered, or if I stopped them the rear ones would drop down and pump a volley into me and get me.”

streetsweeper

30…Gooogled any fire fights with bad guys in/around Chicago and this story is in the top of the serch engines, posted at Police One.

At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition — six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations..

I was thinking the suspect was on PCP or bathsalts but, he wasn’t.

Remarkably, the gunman was still showing vital signs when EMS arrived. Sheer determination, it seemed, kept him going, for no evidence of drugs or alcohol was found in his system..

royh

Love the 1911. Carried one as SSDF watch inside the ship’s skin or an M-14 as flight deck watch. Only reason I don’t own a 1911 is because I can’t afford a good one. Actually the same reason I don’t own an M14! Saw one 1911 that is made in the Philippines for ~300 but one reviewer said he had to replace practically every part to make the gun a good shooter. I miss them. 🙁

streetsweeper

royh- Check out Ruger. Depending on the store, it can be right around $650 for the mini 14 .223/5.56 NATO.

royh

I like the 7.62.

Mr Wolf

I’m assuming you’re talking about a Rock Island Arms .45? Those rock. Mil-spec parts; they are good right out of the box, if all you’re looking for is a shooter. If you’re looking for some cheap Kimber knock-off, yeah, you gotta swap some. But they go for a bit more than 300 nowadays. Still a very good deal.

royh

At risk of a triple-post for which I apologize in advance, the one I was speaking of was the ATI FX45. Saw it at slickguns. Some of them have very good reviews. Maybe the review I read was at thetruthaboutguns? Reviews there can be hit or miss, the Hipoint review for example.

Instinct

Naw, like I said above, my dad is a much better shooter than I am and he got a Rock Island and his opinion is that it shoots better right out of the box than his $1200 Kimber.

MCPO NYC USN Ret.

1911 for President in 2016
P-220 for VP
P-229 for SECDEF
P-226 for SECT DHS
G-26 for Off Duty
S&W Model 10 in Tool Box

A Proud Infidel®™

I own a Taurus PT1911, great price, great gun, no problems at all!!

streetsweeper

My conceal carry is the PT145-PRO. Love it! 😎

3/17 Air Cav

I have a colt 1911 and S&W 38. As others have said no comparison for stopping power.

The only reason I have the 38 is for sentimental reasons. Back in the day with the Air Cav I had the “cowboy” holster rig with the .38 just looked better.

We used to say amongst ourselves, if we were shot down no pistol was going to do us much good. So most of the guys I flew with went with cowboy look.

Jack

Totally off point. .45s last longer than .40s because of lower chamber pressures. It’s actually lower chamber pressure than a 9mm. Also, the 1911 was dropped for more reasons than to just appease NATO for a 9mm caliber change. 1911s are extremely high maintenance compared to modern pistols. Parts must be replaced much sooner, and the maintenance and parts replacement must be done by an experience smith as most parts must be hand fitted to the pistol. The gun only holds 7-8 shots, which is pitiful for a modern combat handgun. There are many modern options that come in .45 that hold many more rounds, are far more reliable, and much cheaper to mass produce and maintain as a service pistol. The FNX 45 and HK 45 are a few examples.

I own two 1911s, one of which I carry, and I love shooting them. As a standard issue handgun for our military, though? Absolutely a step backwards.

FatCircles0311

What about AP pistol calibers as well? Now that body armor is so available whether it’s convention forces or the baddies that picked up the dropped iraqi body armor.

fn 5.7?

seans

5.7 is vastly overrated in it’s armor piecing properties when fired from a pistol. It was designed to piece armor when fired from a PDW.

FatCircles0311

You realize the same ammunition is used in both the hand gun and the p90, right?

The difference in muzzle velocity is less than 100m/s

seans

Again the 5.7 round has been tested against modern soft armor, while better than any pistol round, it still can’t defeat it close to a third of the time. And it has no chance against hard.

OldCorpsTanker72

The only real purpose of a pistol in a gunfight is to give you time to get to a rifle.

seans

What is amazing is all the talk about 1911s is that CAG(delta) stopped using them a while ago. They now use 40cal Glocks. They realized how bad of a defensive fire arm they made once they started racking up the casualties. As for the marines using them, it was a status choice to go back to them

Redacted1775

I’ve had my 1911 since 2006. 2,000+ rounds a year and counting, still waiting for my first stoppage or malfunction.