National Cemeteries and Caskets
I ran across a story today that leaves me with decidedly mixed feelings.
Here’s a summary: some years ago a World War II veteran – Lawrence Davis, Jr. – died in Florida. He apparently had no family willing to make funeral arrangements for him.
As a World War II veteran, Davis was authorized to be buried in a National Cemetery. VA regulations and Federal law in effect then and today allowed the VA to bury him. But those same laws and regulations did not allow (or require) the VA to provide him a casket.
So Davis was buried without a casket. In Florida, that’s apparently still allowed; I don’t know how common that is in other states. He was later honored, per the cemetery’s policy, at a periodic ceremony held to honor veterans who die and are buried with no family present.
The story has sparked predictable outrage. As the cited article notes, a bill has been introduced in Congress (the Dignified Burial of Veterans Act of 2012) mandating the VA “review its burial standards” and authorizing the VA to purchase caskets (or urns) for all veterans buried in National Cemeteries.
As I said, I have mixed feelings.
Obviously, everyone – veterans and non-veterans alike – deserve a dignified burial. But is it really the Federal government’s responsibility to provide a casket for each and every veteran who chooses to be buried in a National Cemetery? And what is inherently disrespectful about burial sans casket?
I’ve also got serious concerns about how the bill “fixing” this will be implemented and funded if passed. What will the standards be for such government-provided caskets – and what will they cost? (I kinda doubt they’ll end up being the proverbial old-time “pine box.”) And just what else in the VA budget will get cut to free up the funds to buy them? ‘Cause if you think the VA budget will be increased to fund this – well, in that case I happen to have a bridge I’d like to talk to you about selling . . . .
As a Veteran, my heart tells me the bill proposed to “fix” this is a good thing. But as a believer in limited government – and a fiscal conservative – my head tells me this could be a really bad idea. And it also tells me that maybe we’re trying to “fix” a problem that isn’t really a problem at all.
What say you all?
Category: Military issues, Reality Check, Veterans Issues, Veterans' Affairs Department
Agree on all counts. This is a solution in search of a problem. So long as the person isn’t just tossed into a shallow hole, sprinkled with some lime, then covered with dirt (how Motzart was “buried”in the movie “Amadeous”) — I see nothing wrong with a dignified burial sans casket.
Because of the horrendous ways bodies can be handled that have no family to watch over them, I would go with cremation; there are still some religious prhibitions with that idea in some areas, however. It’s my personal preference, but not everyone’s.
We do NOT need another donut eatin’, gold plated Vegas “meeting” havin’, bureaucrat run government program.
I agree, a dignified burial without a casket is acceptable. If the legislators insist though I say cut about 10 generals/admirals and the resulting savings in payroll, staff, and travel will more than pay for this.
Sounds like rent-seeking from the funeral industry that is already making serious bank from dead service members.
As a CAO, I’ve had to tell funeral directors to STFU about pressuring designated NOK family members with casket ands service sales pitches because they know the money is rolling in for a KIA. Its disgusting.
Virtually all of our war dead overseas were buried without caskets. On wartime, all you have most of the time is a blanket and/or poncho, maybe a shelter half, etc. You do what you have to do.
The same with the Navy. Burial at sea used a sail cloth (canvas) bag with weights.
I concur with cremations, too. I have asked to be cremated, and my ashes buried at sea. The Navy still offers this for veterans, and here’s the link to the Navy’s own FAQ page about burial at sea for those who might be interested.
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/questions/burial.html
I agree that we don’t need an new expensive program. A dignified burial and appropriate ceremony and grave marker is fine, at least in my own opinion.
@6 my point completely.
Caskets, vaults and embalming are done for the living. the dead dont care.
My Idea is to be buried at sea.
Viking funeral pyre.
When ya gotta go, go big 🙂
I concur, we do not need this expensive add on. If there is no requirement to have a casket and the family does not care enough to buy one, the person being buried absolutely will not care. What I think is important is that a memorial be put in place. I have no idea what those who are buried at sea have for memorials, can any one enlighten me.
@8 – Exactly! But how many local, state and federal laws would be broken by that sort of funereal?
Fear not the coming of the nanny-state…it’s already here.
Better to preserve LIVING military, than spend LIVING men’s TAX $$ on the previously living (a general rule).
No. 8 SSG Medzyk —
(I had not read any comments before I commented)
THE, proper attitude !!
Pagar:
Many folks buried at sea have a cenotaph, or memorial, placed in a cemetery to remember them. Many veteran’s cemeteries also permit the use of a stone marker or head stone on a grave site with no body, where the individual was buried at sea, or the remains could not otherwise be returned.
V/R
Just another feel-good program that doesn’t actually make anyone feel better or accomplish anything.
Stop the madness, already!
Thank you AW1 TIM for your reply. I knew that many choose sea burial I just didn’t ever think about their memorial before.
#10
I do not know of any state that mandates caskets, embalming or a vault.
Some states put a time limit of must bury by if these things are not done.
Other will limit viewing of the body to family only if no embalming.
IF Kongress insists, then cut the pay, benefits & staff of the Kongress Kritters that voted for and passed it.
Enigma 4 You: I think CI was alluding to the fact that many states might object to a Viking funeral pyre on environmental grounds – you know, all that smoke from a natural wood bonfire.
I say as long as the veteran hasn’t passed away on foreign shores, said veteran deserves at a minimum, a military funeral. Growing up, I knew vet’s from WW1 & WWII that were interred without a “family” other than those of us local’s that actually gave a shit. The local mortician always made sure said vet’s were taken care of when they passed away. Stood in more than one Boy & Explorer Scout honor guard detail for some pretty awesome veterans…Hooah.
1. The veteran is dead
2. Caskets cost money
3. Our grandchildren will work until their 80s to pay off our desire to convey dignity to a meatsack.
Really? Really?
The bolder moulder with the brave.
If I want a casket or urn, I will pay for it ahead of time… Plan ahead, so the family is not left to be hassled with the sales pitches and unwanted and unneeded expenses.
In other words, the US Government does not owe me a casket. They give me a lot as it is already, and despite the sometimes molasses speed they move at they manage to treat me well.
I have a spot and a headstone waiting for me in Boscawen when I go. Save the money on the casket and buy a shitload of beer or whiskey to send me off with.
Don’t add this on. As Tim said, a lot of our warriors have gone to their rest without a casket… let them rest in their boots. When they burn me and shoot me out of the TDU in a certain undisclosed location, I’ll be happy….
Up here in Maine, you can even be buried on your own land, if you so choose. The State only requires a certificate of death signed by a physician. Anything else you want is up to you.
I have an insurance policy and a living will. That will provides that a certain portion of the insurance money is to be set aside for my cremation. I have asked my kids to hold a great honking Pagan ceremony on my land, with a huge bonfire to cremate me, and beer and whiskey, music and laughter. No tears.
Afterward, place my ashes in a proper container ( I was thinking that an old sonobuoy container would be wicked appropriate, and then have it sent to Norfolk, for to be buried at sea. If there’s still a P-3 around, or maybe even a P-8, dropping me out the launch tube and recording the coordinates would be even better.
I already have a plot reserved at a Veteran’s Cemetery here in Maine, so the kids can put the headstone there, and we can all meet up every now and then when they see fit.
To my mind, a dignified burial with honors is what matters. Not the casket or anything else. If I am remembered, then I will live on. I remember my friends I lost, and they live through me. We take care of our own.
I don’t need to be tossing money to the funeral industry. Send me out as the regulations state. A flag, an honour guard with 21 rounds, and some kind words from the chaplain.
At this point I don’t really care much either way how I’m planted.
Ask me when I’m dead.
(See what I did there?)
We have unclaimed veterans remains here in Raleigh. While I am not wanting more of the taxpayer dollar to be spent for a problem that doesn’t really exist, how can we honor those who have no family left?
defendUSA: You should have the local coroner’s office reach out to the American Legion, VFW, DAV, etc and see if that can’t set up something to see that those veterans receive a proper burial with honors.
I know the Legion here where I live has a group available at all times to render honors for any veteran. They practice the ceremony on a regular basis, etc.
Same with a VFW post here.
defendUSA: you also might want to touch base with any local Army Reserve and Army National Guard units (or even the NC ARNG AG) For the past several years, the Army has authorized award of retirement points for Reservists participating in funeral details. One or more local USAR/ARNG units might well be willing to help out, particularly if they’ve got a sharp PAO who can convince the appropriate Commander that (1) it’s the right thing to do and (2) will get the unit some good publicity at the same time.
About 17 months ago, an uncle of mine who was a World War II vet was buried. If I recall correctly, his funeral detail was from a local USAR or ARNG unit.
OPTEMPO might make that a no go, but if some local units aren’t preparing for deployment they might be able to support honors at the burial of unclaimed veterans’ remains.
The federal Code has several sections which apply to burial of unclaimed veterans. You can read through the code here: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=38:1.0.1.1.4&idno=38#38:1.0.1.1.4.2.81.4
Some additional information on a few relevant subjects:
Authorized Costs
http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/38C23.txt
“the Secretary, in the Secretary’s discretion, having due regard to the circumstances in each case, may pay a sum not exceeding $300 to such person as the Secretary prescribes to cover the burial and funeral expenses of the deceased veteran and the expense of preparing the body and transporting it to the place of burial.”
Headstones are apparently separate from these costs:
“The Secretary shall furnish, when requested, appropriate Government headstones or markers at the expense of the United States for the unmarked graves of the following: (1) Any individual buried in a national cemetery or in a post cemetery.”
(multiple additional regulations, including providing a headstone for veterans whose remains are “unavailable”, including through burial at sea as mentioned by AW1 Tim).
I don’t see any separate allowance for the cost of a casket or a requirement for one. This is all based on the assumption that the veteran in question was not service connected for a disability or receiving a VA pension. In either of those cases there are actually other sections of the code which would apply and death benefits which might help with a casket.
Also, for any of you considering burial at sea, you might want to look into Eternal Reefs.
http://www.eternalreefs.com/
This company uses cremains as part of the mix for large reef balls which are used to form artificial coral reefs. Each reef ball has small plaque that can be inscribed with your name, etc., and family members receive GPS coordinates once the reef is placed and can “visit” the reef ball later. They can offer military honors as part of the process.
I have no idea what a traditional burial/funeral costs these days so I don’t know how this compares.
I guess if money were no object for the family and it was allowed, scattering my ashes over the USS Arizona memorial would be the greatest honor I could ask for. But I’m not an Arizona or Pearl Harbor survivor.
But again, casket, no casket, not a big issue for me. Not like I’ll give a shit anyway.
Seems to me if the government was so concerned, it would b simple enough to collect all the unclaimed remains of veterans , which some estimates put in the thousands and either place them in in crypts at state and national veterans cemetaries or ground burial,
with appropriate markers to honor their final resting place.
There are plenty of reserve and National guard units that could fall out one weekend a year to conduct a non denominational service open to the public and call it a day…..they are already creameated and in a container. they did not get a choice, Indigent Vets get the cheapest disposal errr….service and if no one claims them …on the shelf they go. Each Vet gets a marker from the VA and except Arlington is entitled to free burial to most national cemetaries.
WA ARNG has a full-time funeral honors team. They do other ceremonial details, too, but that’s the biggest one. The band supplies musicians for a host of ceremonial events, to include someone to play taps at funerals. They are busy.
I want to be cremated, and then a battle buddy can knock on the doors of my enemies, blow my ashes in their face, and tell them that SSG Steele sends his regards.
But I also want an AAR in lieu of a funeral.
My late father, a WW II vet, said “Find me a big enough cardboard box and bury me in that”. If the service is done with dignity and respect, who needs a box?
I agree with most of the post. Why spend more money someone else is to repay! I am not a vet but when I go there is no casket or ashes my remains will be donated to the Anatomical Society for what they want to do to it, there will be no headstone either.. Family can have memorial service if they like that will be up to them.
Honestly I have no problem with burial less the casket. You will rot to nasty nothingness regardless. And a lot of very good Marines were buried in ponchos or shelter halves over the years. You can stick me inside a body bag for all I care.
[…] A few months ago, I brought up the issue of veterans burials. In that article I referenced the case of a veteran in Florida buried sans casket. […]