Trayvon mystery deepens
Old Trooper sends us a link to a local news report that says that Trayvon had injuries on his knuckles;
WFTV has learned that the medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: The fatal gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles.
When you compare Trayvon’s non-fatal injury with Zimmerman’s bloody head wounds, the autopsy evidence is better for the defense, Sheaffer said.
“It goes along with Zimmerman’s story that he acted in self-defense, because he
So, coupled with Zimmerman’s injuries we talked about earlier this morning, I just can’t add one plus one. I wonder what it means when one participant has injuries to his knuckles and the other has injuries to head. It’s truly a mystery. I’m sure Insipid or Joe will be able to spell it out for us so we won’t be racists.
Category: Shitbags
….and the FBI is contemplating hate crime charges still…
Zimmerman might not have been smart to follow him but that is now a hate crime? This is why hate crime legislation should never have been allowed…think the soldier you blogged about yesterday will get that kind of justice?
/retorical?
A crime is a crime. Does a broken nose hurt worse when it is a hate crime? Why is the FBI even involved in the case? Isn’t this a local matter?
KJR–it’s because one of “Obama’s sons” is involved. Had this been a white or Hispanic or Asian kid killed by an African-American Neighborhood Watch volunteer, well…
So a convicted crimal with a gun, follows an unarmed teen who is not breaking the law, is told to stop by police but does not heed and ends up killing the kid. How is that not a crime?
The bottom line is Zimmerman stalked Martin because “They always get away.” Zimmerman somehow has the right to defend himself byut martin doesn’t. How does that make sense?
@4, he was never told to stop by police. The dispatcher said, “we dont need you to do that.” Dispatchers aren’t cops.
Funny, I didn’t realize that any criminal conviction was an automatic bar to owning a weapon, Doc. Some convictions, yes, but not all. Not even close.
HM2,
First, the “police” did not tell Zimmerman to stop following Martin. A 911 operator did. A 911 operator does NOT have police powers.
No crime comitted.
Second, you don’t know that Zimmerman did NOT stop when told to. You were not there and are assuming that Zimmerman continued on.
Third, you are assuming that Martin’s wounds to his knuckles are defensive. At this point there is no evidence to show that they are. So if there is only offensive wounds on Martin and wounds on Zimmerman that show assualt, how was Martin defending himself?
HM2 FMF-SW Ret: I think keeping an eye on strangers is kinda what Neighborhood Watch does. And the last time I checked, following someone to see what they’re up to generally isn’t against the law if that individual doesn’t have a restraining order prohibiting same. Stupid, perhaps – but generally not illegal.
None of us was there, so none of us knows precisely what happened. But if what’s been made public today is accurate, the forensic evidence appears to be supporting Zimmerman’s story.
HM2 FMF-SW Ret,
Your assuming you know what happened.
No one really knows what led up to the point where Zimmerman is on the ground getting his ass kicked.
We know he left his vehicle.
Next thing we know we have a kid dead who was beating the shit out of Zimmerman.
That is what we know.
From the injuries to both parties, it looks like self defense.
But there is really no way to know what happened. You can speculate all you want. Only Zimmerman and the dead kid know. So we are only getting one version.
Oh and your comment about the convicted criminal thing can be turned on you. As we now know, the kid was a KNOWN to have had drugs on him at one point. Dealing or using. You make the call.
We know Zimmerman was no longer following the kid after he told the 911 operator he did not know where treyvon was. This was when he was asked to give his adress and he said he did not know where treyvon was and did not want to say it out loud… We can presume he was returning to his vehicle because that is where he was saying he wanted to meet the police. By reading the full transcript, by witness testimony, by the physical evidence we can find so much reasonable doubt to this being what he is charged with that it it is insane he was charged with anything at all.
Those who have pushed for “justice for treyvon” have completely ignored and or manipulated the facts of the case to bring things to this point. Including the District Attorney who filed the charges against Martin.
Based on what’s known, this scenario seems entirely plausible to me: Zimmerman follows Martin, which Martin is aware of based on his conversation with his girlfriend. Based on the GF’s account, Martin was concerned about being tailed and was attempting to get back to the house he came from, though he did not want to run as his GF suggests. So right there, his mindset appears to be very much someone who is alarmed by this odd behavior and is seeking to leave the area, not provoke a confrontation. Zimmerman continues to follow Martin, despite police dispatcher advice not to do so (whether a dispatcher is a cop or not is irrelevant to me, you call the authorities, they give you direction, you oughtta take it. if he had, Martin might not be dead). We know Zimmerman left his car. Now we have the variety of wounds Zimmerman has suffered and knuckle and fatal wound on Martin. I don’t find it hard to believe at all that Zimmerman may have approached Martin aggressively, attempted to question him. Martin already is alarmed some guy is following him when he is just minding his business. Now this same guy approaches him, aggressively and he is armed? Martin identifies that the guy is armed and is in his face, he’s scared, not sure what this guy is about to do who is armed and harassing him without cause. Maybe Zimmerman attempted to physically touch him and he resisted, they struggled, Martin was getting the better of the fight and Zimmerman killed him. Maybe Martin, seeing he was armed, struck first to stave off the guy drawing the weapon on him, since they were at close range. Other than Martin getting caught with some drugs and perhaps some other assorted poor behavior, I have not heard anything describing Martin as physically getting into it with people, fighting incidents, nothing to indicate this kid swings into violence on the regular. Add to that his state of mind seems to be focused on getting away because he’s worried about this guy following him (per the GF… Read more »
If we are going to play make believe, it is just as easy to use the known facts to conclude that Zimmerman observed Martin, called police, returned to his car, got out of his car when asked where Martin was at that moment and did not see him because Martin was waiting in ambush. And did ambush him.
Based solely upon the injuries, Zimmerman was obviously the victim here. What may or may not have transpired preceeding Martin’s attack upon Zimmerman is relatively unimportant. Except that Martin ignored an opportunity to get away from the situation. Translation: the attack upon Zimmerman was premeditated.
HM2
So being followed is justification for assault? Self defense in that case is running away from a guy you are faster than, not confronting him…
A scared kid runs. Remember, Martin was a thug wannabe, and this plays into the tough guy persona he exhibited on his twitter feed. Remember, not long before this he punched out a bus driver. This was not a child as the media would want you to believe, this was a 6 ft tall young man with a 190 lb athletic frame. And, in case you forgot, or haven’t seen it yet: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/the-daily-caller-obtains-trayvon-martins-tweets/ His twitter handle tells you pretty much everything you need to know about his mindset. Somewhere along the way, someone failed this kid.
The stupid stuff kids do and say on Twitter is regrettable, but not dispositive of the boys character. You got perfectly nice kids putting trashy behavior online these days. I have not seen anything about him punching a bus driver. My point remains that there does not appear to be a history of violence with this kid, so a blind side attack on Zimmerman who was following Martin just does not sound right. How is it that Zimmerman comes to lose a kid he’s trailing from his car and how does Martin sneak up on him on a street unawares? A scared kid might run, or he might stand his ground. This if Florida, thats the whole point of stand your ground in the first place. A scared kid runs? If Zimmerman approached him, was armed and Martin saw that, his calculation might well have been “I can’t outrun a bullet, no choice but to fight”.
There is still room to question, and this is in the same state where a black woman just got sentenced to 20 years for firing a gun in the air as a warning shot during a confrontation with an abusive ex husband. Nobody dead or injured, mother of two gets two decades in prison.
http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/05/florida_black_woman_gets_20_years_after_failed_stand_your_ground_defense.html
When you have miscarriages of justice like that occurring, people are going to question a situation like this.
So now a black on black shooting is a hate crime? Chicago best watch out. Zimmermans grandfather was black, according to what my black friends have said before that makes him black.
Political Season: I’d guess you’re not out that much at night. It’s relatively easy to lose a person in the shadows for a second or two if you’re any appreciable distance behind them if they’re dressed in grey and dark blue and are walking down a sidewalk on a dark and rainy night. That’s especially true if the individual is trying to hide himself because he thinks he’s being followed. All he has to do is walk into the poorly-lit areas between streetlights to a place where he’s screened from view for a second or so and duck behind some bushes (or between/behind a couple of parked cars) until the person following him has passed.
If that happens, the follower can easily then become the one being followed.
Hmmm, blue jeans, a gray hoodie, in the shadows on a rainy night. Nope, certainly unreasonable to think that Zimmerman could lose a black male dressed thusly, in those conditions. And, it didn’t happen in “the middle of the street”.
And, you seem perfectly willing to accept the story of the G/F, that Martin allegedly said what she claims? Or, did he say that yo, he was gonna pop a cap on dat honky?
You’re excusing what may have been Martin’s behavior, ahead of time. Because it “just doesn’t sound right”?
What seems more likely: a guy calls 911 and decides he’s gonna kill a kid on a whim then injure himself or let himself get assaulted to give him justification or a kid decides he’s gonna be a tough guy and throw some punches on a presumably unarmed neighborhood watch member?
I’m not saying that Trayvon deserved to get shot, but he (apparently) made his intent clear enough to Zimmerman to feel threatened and he paid the ultimate price. Zimmerman acted within the law (from the details I’ve heard) though stupidly… but within the law.
If I was in a place I knew I didn’t belong and a neighborhood watch or security guard confronted me (even as a kid), my first reaction isn’t “kick his ass”, it’s “okay, I know I’m in the wrong here, what’s the worst he can do? Escort me out” then I’d walk out of there.
Making tough guy statements on twitter or posing like a thug doesn’t make a bad kid, but actions speak louder than words, and while he may not have had a long history of violence, there’s a first time for everything. Maybe the stars just didn’t align for him on this night and his first act of violent aggression ended in the worst possible scenario for him. But the bottom line remains, did Zimmerman break the law? In my opinion given the evidence (bruised knuckles on the alleged attacker, wounds on the face and head of the alleged defender) says no, Zimmerman acted in self defense. A shitty situation for all involved, I have yet to see or hear of Zimmerman brag about the events, or show any degree of happiness of the events that transpired.
We should all admit it was a crappy deal, but no law was broken (given the evidence so far).
Somebody acted stupidly and I don’t think it was George Zimmerman. I think that there were some cowards in the neighborhood who could have at least looked out their doors and windows when they heard him screaming for help.
Maybe it’s just me and my neighborhood, but I know most everyone in my neighborhood and if I see someone I don’t know walking around I may not follow them, but I will say hi. Depending on how they respond is how I look at them. If they are messing around where they aren’t supposed to be I get curious. Hell it’s called being a good neighbor.
#15 She may not have deserved to get 20 years but she deserved to go to jail from what I understand. The story I heard was that she left the room her husband was in, went to the garage, and then returned with a gun. Stand Your Ground doesn’t apply if you actually remove yourself from the situation and then voluntarily return to it.
“Let’s talk about the elephant in the room. I’m black, OK?” the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. “There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood,” she said. “That’s why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin”….
http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/trayvon-martin-case/
Offered to counter PoliticalSeaon’s game of ‘what if.’
Right now, what we do know is that George Zimmermann shot Trayvon Martin. Martin died from the wound. Zimmermann was armed and so had the means.
Zimmermann and Martin being in close proximity means Zimmermann had opportunity.
We know there’s been a lot of demagoguery and calls for retribution, which included reclassifying Zimmermann as caucasian. If you believe he’s white, next you’ll tell me Elizabeth Warren is Cherokee.
The only thing in doubt is motive.
Let’s clarify a few things here: The picture of Martin is not representative of the person shot that night. He wasn’t 12 years old, anymore. He hadn’t been on a football team in years. Martin had been suspended 3x in recent months, including an attack on a bus driver, and on drug related charges. In other words, he had exhibited violent, criminal behavior. Martin was suspended at the time of the incident, and “grounded” by his father on the night of the incident. He wasn’t supposed to be outside of the house. And the neighborhood was not one in which he lived. His “caring” father that had grounded him was at someone else’s house from which Martin had left, apparently without the parent’s knowledge. Zimmerman is Hispanic, amongst other races, not that it matters, to anyone other than those that want to call it a Whitey hate crime. Zimmerman has a record of reporting the suspicious activities of whites, blacks, and hispanics. He may be a busybody, but he was an equal opportunity kind of caller to 911. He is also quite about smaller than Martin. Zimmerman was on the Neighborhood Watch, so when a suspicious individual that wasn’t part of the neighborhood ducked between two houses, he ignored the telephone operator and went to see where and why the suspicious individual was on private property belonging to Zimmerman’s neighbors. Zimmerman had injuries to his eyes, back of his head, and more. The BACK of his sweater was wet and he had lacerated skin. Martin had injuries to his knuckles and a fatal wound fired from within 6 inches. These injuries are consistent with Zimmerman being on his back and firing his weapon at a larger man on top of him, who just so happened to be beating the snot out of him. Is Zimmerman a candidate for the best decision maker of the year? No, but regardless of the decisions he made in life, he was trying to protect his neighbors and found himself being attacked for it. After suffering injuries, he may have come to the conclusion that… Read more »
#15 “How is it that Zimmerman comes to lose a kid he’s trailing from his car and how does Martin sneak up on him on a street unawares?”
That could very possibly be the point where Zimmerman TURNED AROUND and made his way back to his car. This isn’t rocket science. The facts are jumping out at you guys and you absolutely refuse to accept them. As for Martin punching a bus driver, it’s all over the place. The only way you haven’t seen it is if you chose not to.
“You got perfectly nice kids putting trashy behavior online these days”. Then, by definition, wouldn’t that make them trashy kids, not “perfectly nice kids”? Or, will you throw out the “everybody does it” defense?
@#25 – My point is simply that kids are stupid and exercise poor judgement daily with what they put online. I’m not going to point to that as the only indicator of the kids character.
Incident occurred at night, therefore may account for how he loses sight of Martin. I don’t think the “injuries” on Martin’s body are proof of vicious attack:
According to NBC News, the multi-page autopsy says that… The only injuries to Martin are from the gunshot and to one knuckle, “a quarter-inch to one-eighth inch abrasion on the fourth finger in the ring area.”
Thats not a lot.
Based on the more complete set of evidence available to the public right now, its entirely possible that Zimmerman’s account is accurate, though I note the Martin family lawyer is calling for a release of all the evidence, rather than what he calls selective leaks.
My bag isn’t about seizing the opportunity to call something or someone racist. Enough travesties of justice occur that there is plenty of cause to question a situation like this until there has been more disclosure.
Its possible Martin did attack Zimmerman for whatever reason with these results. If he attacked Zimmerman, well, I can’t fault him for shooting and the whole thing is a tragic confluence of events, including the demonization of Zimmerman.
@#21 With regard to the woman, sure, wrong call to leave and return with the gun, but #1, no one was injured or killed, she shot in the air and now the taxpayers should pay to lock her up for two decades? Wrong result. #2, this is the same state where stand your ground was successfuly used in a case where a guy pursued an assailant for several blocks and shot him and that guy was cleared on a stand your ground defense
Political Season: a single cut to the knuckles is eminently reasonable for a single bare-knuckle punch delivered to the nose of someone else. And a single bare-knuckle punch to the nose, delivered by someone 6′ and 170lb or so, is more than sufficient to break a man’s nose and stun him if it lands square. Once the individual is stunned, grabbing them, throwing them to the ground, rolling them onto their back, and then smashing the back of their head into the sidewalk repeatedly will likely cause no further injury to the one who delivered the punch.
Zimmerman’s injuries are consistent with his story that he was jumped by Martin, stunned, then thrown to the ground and had his head rammed into the sidewalk. Martin’s injuries are also consistent with Zimmerman’s account.
I wasn’t there, so I don’t know definitively what happened. But the evidence that’s been reported publicly so far IMO generally tends to support Zimmerman’s account.
Any comment on this one, Insipid? Joe? Political Season?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/cops-witnesses-back-george-zimmermans-version/story?id=16371852
@Hondo Relative to that story, the witnesses testimony agrees with Zimmerman’s account as far as what they saw. Their accounts don’t get to the heart of what has made the majority of blacks question the initial police response of no arrest, namely, how this encounter got initiated. CNN has a timeline of events and some account of what Zimmerman told police. If the CNN timeline http://bit.ly/JX2ira is accurate, there is still room to interpret these events against Zimmerman. From the CNN timeline: “According to an Orlando Sentinel story later confirmed by Sanford police, Zimmerman tells authorities that, after Zimmerman briefly lost track of Martin, the teen approached him. After the two exchange words, Zimmerman says, he reaches for his cell phone, and then Martin punches him in the nose. Zimmerman says Martin pins him to the ground and begins slamming his head into the sidewalk.” According to the above, Zimmerman was not attacked by surprise, he was actually talking to Martin. That jibes with GF’s account that she heard the two of them talking and Martin asking why Zimmerman was following him. Listen to the GF’s account to police (http://bit.ly/KuJxdt). According to her account, Zimmerman was again pursuing Trayvon, so there is reason to doubt Zimmerman’s veracity. #14 Redacted said a scared kid runs. Well, according to the GF’s account to the police, that’s exactly what Trayvon did, but Zimmerman was still in pursuit (in a car) and found him, even after he thought he lost him. They exchange words. Zimmerman tells police he went for his cell phone and Martin punches him. Zimmerman had a gun on him. Why is it not plausible that Martin thought Zimmerman was going for his gun and struck first before Zimmerman could draw his weapon on him? That’s not an unreasonable reaction since I’m sure he rightly assumed he could not outrun a bullet. This guy was following him, the guy is armed, he is not a cop, Martin hasn’t done anything to anybody and is on a public street where he has a right to be, he’s been running from this guy… Read more »
Political Season: There’s a major problem with your scenario. Just how, pray tell, would Martin know Zimmerman was armed before he assaulted him? I’m guessing that Zimmerman wasn’t advertising that fact, and almost certainly was carrying concealed. So from a distance, how would Martin have had any credible reason to think that the man following him was armed? And if he had no reason to think that the man following him was armed, pray tell – why would he have any credible reason to believe his life was in danger? Under your theory, unless Martin was a mind-reader or had x-ray vision, it’s hard to see how he could have known Zimmerman was armed. Ergo, that means Martin had no way to know that Zimmerman was armed, but assumed that was the case – and assaulted him preemptively based on that assumption. That’s not enough justification to support a claim of preemptive assault as self-defense, amigo. Not nearly enough. And in the absence of an overtly hostile act on the part of Zimmerman, it’s questionable as to whether or not that would justify preemptive assault even if Martin did know Zimmerman was armed. Martin’s autopsy also indicates he had THC in his system. That fact is not exactly conducive to a claim that Martin used good judgement. Reduction of anxiety and mild paranoia have both been reported as effects of marijuana use, if I remember correctly. THC could thus have emboldened Martin to attack Zimmerman without cause by making him less anxious about doing so – or made him paranoid and more likely to lash out at Zimmerman. Further, following someone on the street and speaking to them is not a crime – but preemptively attacking them because you don’t like the question they ask (or the fact that they’re questioning you at all) is. And, in case you’ve forgotten it: Zimmerman was in his local Neighborhood Watch. Neighborhood Watch people are supposed to keep an eye on their neighborhood. Sometimes that means asking folks they don’t recognize what they’re up to. I also wouldn’t put all that much stock… Read more »
“According to her account, Zimmerman was again pursuing Trayvon”. Or, just as likely, Zimmerman was returning to his vehicle when Martin approached him. She couldn’t see what was going on.
As Hondo said, talking to someone on the street is no crime, nor is being in the same area.
And, where in any of the accounts does it say that Zimmerman “chased down” Martin? That which I’ve read says he was following him, which he had a right to do.
Also in a trial you are not allowed to fill in gaps with what you “believed happened” you are decide based purely on facts. This really isn’t shaping up to fill into a second degree murder conviction. So I wonder what will happen when and if a jury of Zimmerman’s peers choose to not convict based on the evidence?
Honestly, I think the reason they’re releasing all of this evidence is because they’re fixing to drop charges against Zimmerman.
I think so also, the “special prosecuter” had to stretch it and do a little lying to get the arrest warrant. I kinda feel bad for Zimmerman because right or wrong he is dealing with this. He can never really go home to Florida, so in protecting his neighborhood he has basically lost it. Sucks for the guy. Too bad that the parents couldn’t keep their grounded son at home that night.
@29- it’s your contention that Martin saw the gun, punched zimmerman in the nose, threw him to the ground, and instead of gaining control of the weapon or running away while he had zimmerman stunned, he proceeded to rap zimmerman’s head off of the tarmac until he was shot. Was Trayvon hoping he could make zimmerman forget about the gun with some fucking cartoon bonk on the head? Was he trying to kill zimmerman with blunt force trauma before he could exert the 5 lbs. of trigger pressure it would have taken to end the fight?
I just don’t understand the motive or the strategy for the incident that you’re assigning to Trayvon.
@35
Thank you I needed a good laugh! That I had an instant image of an old WB cartoon scenario in my mind.
I hope the charges are dropped against him, Zimmerman broke no laws, in fact, I hope he sues the race baiters. God knows he’s gonna need some money to get a good security system… This will follow him the rest of his life, people made their minds up hours after the incident, and they want this cracka dead.
@Hondo
I’m not making any bigger assumption than you are. You’re assuming that Martin could not detect Zimmerman was armed but at the point they are confronting each other, they are at close range.
Secondly, I find the GF’s account perfectly credible in terms of what she related to the police. Why assume she is lying about her account, not to mention the fact that what she says jibes with Zimmerman’s account in important ways but contradicts him in key components. Based on her account, Trayvon was running away, and Zimmerman was pursuing him in his car. The cops have not indicated that they thought her statement was not credible.
As much as people assert that Zimmerman fits a stereotype and so his story is discounted, I don’t hear anyone treating Trayvon side any different. I’m open to the idea he didn’t profile, pursue and then kill him, but there is still a problem with the story when you listen to the GF’s account and if you assume that all the facts in the CNN timeframe story are correct. That gap is not yet explained away to me.
PS, well, Trayvon’s father told a detective after he listened to the audio from Police dispatch, that it was not Trayvon screaming for help. Only after several hours passed, and he may or may not have consulted with the family lawyer, or Trayvon’s mom, did he say that Yup, that’s my boy. I don’t believe him, not after the family trade-marked “Trayvon Martin”. And, I don’t believe the GF. She wasn’t there, she doesn’t know what happened. Her testimony would be hearsay, unreliable hearsay at best, unless someone comes up with a transcript of the phone call.
It’s called “concealed carry” for a reason, Political Season. The reason should be obvious, as it’s contained in the term used to describe the practice.
Put yourself in Martin’s position and use a bit of common sense. If you were being trailed by someone who may or may not be armed, are you going to go out of your way to try and take them on with nothing more in the way of weapons than a bottle of iced tea and a packet of Skittles?
IMO, someone would only do that if they had a death wish. Anyone rational and sane would politely answer the guy’s questions, do their best to be non-confrontational, and then would get the hell out of Dodge ASAP.
It’s possible Martin tried to do that that. But based on the evidence, that scenario is not looking very likely.
Sure will suck if the mob can’t lynch Zimmerman. They may take it out of the random white person they run across.
For Justice.
Well, Dave, they’ve done it in Chicago, Norfolk, Grand Rapids, Mi. and other places already. I’m sure they’ll be out seeking “justice for Trayvon”.
Damn. Even noted liberal legal scholar and Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz is now saying it looks like Zimmerman acted in self-defense.
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/drop-george-zimmerman-murder-charge-article-1.1080161
Dershowitz is one of the few vocal liberals for whom I have any respect. He has both common sense and the balls to take exception to liberal orthodoxy – like he’s done here.