THE Question That Needs to be Asked?
This need NOT have ethnic/racial answers. I’m thinking more about attitude?
Don Surber asks a simple question: Why is there no looting in Japan?
“Why do some cultures react to disaster by reverting to everyone for himself, but others – especially the Japanese – display altruism even in adversity?”
Some of Don’s comments are just fascinating, but I’m curious about TAH readers.
Disclaimer: This has little to do with Vet/military issues. I’m just genuinely interested in seeing how others might reply.
Category: Politics
One word answer: Culture…they are Stoics.
They are a not a multi-cultural/racial society. And that does make a difference.
I agree, it is cultural. Even in modern day Japan, honor and “face” mean as much as it did in the days of the Shogun.
Both comments 1 and 2 certainly have merit, in fact, but is that the only answer?
Wasn’t there a time when the USA had a similar focus? I’m thinking about WWII at first blush. Doesn’t that equate with a culture, or maybe ethos?
One could plausibly argue Japan was more “focused” during World War Two than we were.
I think it really is a cultural thing.
It may be that there’s looting going on, but the incidents are not being reported. Japan’s criminals haven’t gone on strike. They may, however, be participating in the altruism in order to protect themselves.
Perhaps the looting post-Katrina, and other incidents, speaks more to the absolute abandonment of the rule of law in America, than its reported absence in Japan speaks to it adherence to the rule of law.
In an “us versus them” situation, “us” equals Japanese people and “them” equals everyone else.
Japan is mostly a single culture. Even the Koreans (DNA proves that Japanese people are biologically descended from Koreans) and the Ainu people (a group that was on the islands before the current genetic group moved there, sort of like the American Indians) are outsiders.
In Japan, it is commendable to immerse yourself into a large group working toward a common goal. Individualism is not values in some cases.
Shame. In Japan, anti-social people are outsiders and this is painful to most Japanese people. In Japan, shame has power. The Catholic Church is the largest Western organization that still relies on shame to enforce belonging. For many western people shame is not a good reason to avoid doing something.
DaveO #5: Yeah, the issue IS complicated. But is it not also one we need to consider here? If something akin to the scale of what happened in Japan were to happen here where would the lines be drawn?
Richard7298,
You wrote “[t]he Catholic Church is the largest Western organization that still relies on shame to enforce belonging.”
Even were that true, what does it have to do with Japan?
Your last sentence is confusing as well: is shame a motivator or not?
No ethnic/racial answers? What a *buzz kill*… 😛
I believe there is also a geographical consideration. These are island people. They know, with every fiber of their being, that there is nowhere to run when something happens.
TexasFred #9: No ethnic/racial answers? What a *buzz kill*…
I was only suggested that the issue need not have those as a starting point. I was trying to avoid beginning with easy stereotypes that actually do exist.
Pons…
I remarked on the B5 thread about the situation that I was deeply impressed at their composure and steadfast common sense in the face of the tsunami/earthquake. No hysteria, no looting and no lashing out.
Already, in our news we have seen stories about fallout from Japan, and other Nuclear reactors made by the same company as the ones who have just undergone two situations simultaneously(hysteria…and it isn’t even us!!)and woe is me crap!
As I am sure you have watched many videos, the people are completely grounded and composed as they watch what happens…and they get right to work trying to restore the land they are so proud of. It will be very hard on them, but the two things I can think of without even reading the previous comments:
1. Honor-bound to protect the people and their land.
2. They know of no other way. And God bless them for it.
Do the Japanese hold their citizens to take responsibility for their actions instead of blaming society? That might have something to do with it.
Well there’s no question it’s the Japanese culture or geography or some other highbrow reason. There couldn’t possibly be any “racial/ethnic” connection. To think so would be racist and stupid.
Then again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN2DmtIm6Qo
Just sayin’
The difference is order, as in the order of the culture. The Japanese have come a long ways from the stereotype of the military discipline even in civilian life back in the 1980’s, but it still exists.
Japanese people feel a sense of duty to work together and recover, and even the criminal element in Japan is so thoroughly organized that they don’t operate in a haphazard fashion.
OT #13: To me you’ve swung the hammer AND hit a nail. Others may well disagree, but….
defendUSA #12: The sad bit IS in the comments a little here, and more significantly at Dons.
Seems to me that the level of ingrained crap WE have would have to deal with will be a legacy none will honor.
Lookit… we can’t ignore Katrina, but we CAN aim higher.
/end of lecture.
COB6 #14: Yep. Another hammer hitting another nail.
I’m a full-tilt survivalist type. Screw with me and mine and pay the price, etc.
I’ll loop back to, and rephrase, my original question in general. Why do we need to even have this discussion?
But SOMEONE needs to ask?
I think that honor is a big thing in Japan, but actually, it is not why they do NOT loot, so much as it is “Why DO people loot elsewhere?”. As I see it, that we are an entitlement society, bent on under-educating our youth, has much to do with the “just steal it” mentality that we saw with Katrina, and even in Cities whose Sports team won a national champioship. We have far too many people who think that if it isn’t nailed down, it is free to take.
The Japanese are head and shoulders above us on this one, regardless of reason, or of cause and effect.
I’m not convinced it’s not happening. It may be just not being reported, etc.
Also,It’s possible the MAGNITUDE of the disaster is the cause. I have not been delving deeply into this… (I’m going thru a divorce… sorta detatched) …but 10,000 potential dead.. the destruction… focus on the reactor… you know– maybe there just isn’t anything to loot… and it could be the carnage is just detracting from coverage.
BUT then it COULD BE just that some Americans have been taught to expect stuff and hate big business and what not. And they take what they want. like in COB6’s link.
Didn’t the Yakuza engage in ‘humanitarian’ efforts after the Kobe earthquake of 1995, offering food and other items to the public?
My cousin has lived in Japan for the last 25+ years. He is married to a Japanese woman and they have an 18 year old daughter. The story he told us one Christmas visit might help to explain how things work over there.
He was visiting a friend of his when they noticed 3 men acting strangely outside the gates of the apartment complex he was in. It was after dark but still had ample light to watch the 3 men enter the compound and attempt to break into a ground floor apartment. Another neighbor saw it happening and shouted something loudly. My cousin’s friend was calling the police as lights started popping on all over. The 3 burglars attempted to flee but, when they entered the street, they were surrounded by the various neighbors who were armed with all sorts of things from golf clubs to 2x4s and rakes. One of the burglars made the mistake of attempting to fight his way out and got waylaid by a couple of golf club blows. After that, the other 2 burglars simply surrendered and sat down to wait for the cops. When the cops showed up about 10 minutes later, all they had to do was cuff the crooks, take some statements and haul them off.
The citizens took responsibility and confronted criminals themselves. The criminals realized that they had lost and peacefully surrendered after the quick beatdown. They all 3 pled guilty in court and went to jail.
The difference here is that, in the US, those citizens would have been chastised for being vigilantes and the criminals would have been able to sue them for the beating with the golf clubs.
There is a regimentation to their society and honor still means something to them and their families. Yes, the US was once more like that but we have lost that in the wave of “political correctness” that has spewed forth from the mouths of idiots. Our society is fragmented and nobody wants to take responsibility anymore for their actions.
That’s my take on it anyway.
#19 BooRadley,
None of my business, but sorry to hear of it.
The magnitude, and the new dangers cropping up daily, may serve to shock folks out of their baser instincts. And yes, definitely: some Americans believe they are owed anything, without consequence.
#20 Tman,
You may be correct. Assisting in humanitarian ways is not an unheard of tactic. It demonstrates the power of the gang while simultaneously demonstrating the inability of government to serve and protect. Further, criminals go out of business without the existence of value: goods, services, and the like. So humanitarian aid may be of the nature of protecting their investments.
DaveO,
When I was in Japan, most people followed rules; they stayed between the lines. I was out in Osaka on August 6th. They have anti-nuclear demonstrations on that day. The demonstrators were loud and dressed like ghosts, but orderly, no bottle were broken, no one was assaulted, and no damage done. Even the streets were mostly clean. I think that many Japanese people would be ashamed if they hurt their community.
In the Catholic Church shame is the prime motivator, the feeling to avoid; it is the price for not meeting the grade. Other churches invoke shame but with less force, it is less central to their message. I think that the use of shame by the Catholic Church is similar to the Japanese culture.
In my experience, people in Japan feel ashamed if they dishonor themselves or their family, if they personally benefit at the expense of the greater community, and they and others know of their shame. It is more important than an annoyance.
I think that most of us who wore the uniform understand honor as something desirable and valuable, possessed by some, sometimes hard to earn, given but impossible to take.
In Japan, to steal or loot or take from the dead, injured, or grieving would be dishonorable – shameful – and therefore less likely. These are broad generalities about a culture but it is what I saw. There is much to respect in Japan. And there is Bataan and Pearl Harbor. Cultures are rarely homogeneous and never simple.
I talk too much, I will shut up now.
All I want to know is,Where is Sean Penn and his row boat?
Sean Penn is too busy screwing Ryan Reynold’s ex-wife to worry about Japan.
#18
Entitlement culture is the single biggest problem affecting America today. The idea that if something is in a store it doesn’t “really” belong to someone is BS but caused by all those ideas.
#21, yeah
I think that’s the other thing. If there is one thing that deeply bothers me about modern American society it is that criminals have more rights than citizens.
It used to be that if someone tried to break into your home and you shot them, the police would come by, shake your hand, and take the body away. Now, you’re not allowed to shoot or even ‘assault’ a burglar, because they’re ‘only’ stealing property.
When my great-grandmother was in her late nineties, a burglar tried to break into her home. She took the cane she used to walk and beat him into the street with it. I am proud to admit she beat him so hard with this cane that he went limping and fleeing out into the street, while she according to all accounts then proceeded to follow him asking him how he dared pick on a defenseless old lady.
She’s sadly gone now (lived to 107, God bless her) but at that time, no one ever would have thought of arresting her or even talking to her sternly about assaulting a burglar. That was what you DID.
If a man comes after me in a dark alley and tries to rape me, and I have a gun in my purse, I’m going to shoot him. And then I’ll probably be the one going to jail, even though I was just protecting myself.
We embolden the criminals by making their only possible consequence the “possibility” of jail time. I guarantee if property owners were able to shoot looters you’d see a lot less looting.
Police are nice, but we shouldn’t surrender all our rights to protect ourselves to them.
#26
I completely agree, AS. Well said.
Well said, AS.
#21 is spot on.
Your fist line of defense is yourself. 2nd line is your neighbor. Farther down the list is govt.
Looting (aka stealing from your neighbors) may work once. But the Japanese know it is counter productive in the long run.
We put more emphasis on the primacy of the individual, they put more on the good of the group. We believe if each citizen works strictly for themselves, somehow that will add up to smoothly running society. They believe that a rising tide raises all ships, we’re still locked in the 19th century rugged individualist mindset, good for conquering a continent, not so good at creating a modern, interdependent, integrated society. One manifestation: there are fewer unions because they are not as adversarial – the execs still honor and feel responsibility towards their workers, and the workers return the favor with loyalty and hard work. When the crash hit a few years ago, and auto sales plummeted, Toyota USA did not (at least for the longest time, not sure if they enentually succumbed), lay off workers even though sales and the production lines slowed way down. They put laborers to work revamping plants, getting educated in new developments in the industry, etc. Meanwhile, American auto execs and unions battled it out in typical adversarial fashion. A look at game theory would point to their cooperative style being more successful in the long run. It would also point to the fact that relations between US auto companies and unions are so poisoned, like the Serbs and the Bosnians, that it would be very difficult to restore trust.
Joe, let me ask you just one question: Have you ever been told that you couldn’t be something because of what you already are?
Japan – approx 2500 yrs of recognized organization and culture.
The United States of America – approx 300 yrs of recognized organization and culture.
Is one necessarily superior to the other? I think that would depend on a goal that hasn’t been defined in this discussion.
Jacobite,
I guess to me the defined goal of a nation (since we’re talking the U.S. vis à vis Japan) would be the greatest good for the greatest number…….
PintoNag,
Not sure I get the drift of your question, but I’ll answer a qualified, “No”……
Jacobite–
Exactly. You made the point far more succinctly than I would have.
And Jacobite, I agree the vastly different histories and cultures of the two countries explain the large differences, but I’m just saying we might learn something from the Japanese.
“I guess to me the defined goal of a nation (since we’re talking the U.S. vis à vis Japan) would be the greatest good for the greatest number…….”
There ya go, “I guess to me…”
Now get away from the “I guess to me…” and examine what our founders thought the goal of this nation was to be, because “I guess to me” this nations purpose is to protect liberties, specifically individual liberties.
And I think the drift of PN’s question is thatit sounds like you are championing a system(Japan’s)over ours that does exactly that, tells you you can’t be something because of what you already are.
@#35 The problem is there is very very little I would enjoy about Japanese culture. I would find it both restrictive and boring. To each their own. OUR (American)culture respects that and doesn’t institutionally punish me for it.
Well, whatever the pros and cons of our respective cultures, I’ll bet once the dust settles they will rebuild in a fashion that will reflect very admirably on their society. I’ve seen several videos, but this one takes the cake:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27680.htm
Funny, Joey, you’re repeating a thought that Rush put out yesterday. He bet, rhetorically, that the Japanese would have everything ruined rebuilt, before a replacement for the WTC or it’s memorial would be built here. I think you and he are correct.
And, one just has to look at what the Japanese did with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, cities that, supposedly, should have been uninhabitable for centuries. At least, according to the doomsayers.
Scary, agreeing with Rush……..
Maybe there’s hope for ya, yet, Joe? 🙂
I don’t know, though, if it’s been this long, already, old habits and all…..I’m just sayin
#23 Richard7298,
I agree with your description of the use of shame as a motivator, but (IMO) thought your inclusion of The Church was unnecessary. Not a big deal, so I’ll shut up about it.
We, as Americans, spend an awful lot of time being ever more shameless in every facet of life.
Consider how many decades the Japanese government and Japanese citizens have put into preparing for the vagaries of nature. That, in addition to the new announcement that staying at home is the best way to avoid potential radioactive fallout, likely has a great deal to do with the purported (and probably minimal) lack of looting.
Remember, this vision of an agreeable, “altruistic” Japan may not be as old or as peculiarly domestic as we think. Japanese history had its periods of domestic affray and disorder. Occasionally there were episodes of outright rebellion; the quelling of the Shimabara revolt signalled the end of Christianity as an overt political force on the islands.
I have been contemplating this question since this post first came up, so you figure I would have a more articulate response by now. However that is not the case. I was thinking that the reasons would be cultural and ethical to a certain extent, as well as societal, and … to a degree logical that no looting should take place. Although, I would hazard a guess that in all societies looting would arise as an eventuality, sooner or later, depending on the mind-set of the general populace, the extent of damage, the ability or inability to recover and the imminent and extant dangers that exist. On that note, the Walmart looting goes considerably beyond basic survival instincts.
On a more specific, personal level, I would say the reason would be honour and respect, with the ingrained understanding that nothing is free…. nothing is without price. Everything must be earned, nothing is free… unless it is a gift.
#19 Boo
Sorry to hear about the divorce. Sounds like you are in need of some Vin and some Vin. Let me know if you need moral support.
oh MAN Spockgirl!! I’d gotten up and walked away before I remembered about Vin Diesel! Thank you!