More Operation Recovery video
Someone sent us this video of the “Operation Recovery” farce in DC last week. This is Jason Hurd, one of the few remaining actual Iraq veterans. Hurd testified at the Winter Soldier hearings in Silver Spring, MD nearly three years ago that he ALMOST shot an elderly Iraqi woman carrying groceries. He claims that he relives that incident almost every night…and then he broke into tears because he ALMOST shot the woman. He didn’t shoot her, but he ALMOST shot her.
He also wished that I would get an incurable disease and die. So much for my “right to heal”.
Category: Antiwar crowd, Iraq Veterans Against the War
Is that SOB wearing an CMB? FUCKING DISGRACE!!! I’ll agree there are health issues but you don’t fix it by stunts like this. This isn’t about the troops. This is about some dick breath that got his feelings hurt by harsh reality of combat. lets be clear IRAQ. IS. OVER! and it sure as shit wasn’t a failure. MTFU fags
“…lets be clear IRAQ. IS. OVER! ”
Put on your ruby red slippers, click your heels three times, and keep repeating over and over. It’s bound to come true.
@ Doc Bailey: What exactly makes a CMB in his chest a “fucking disgrace”??
You also said, “this is about some dick breath that got his feelings hurt by harsh reality of combat.” Ummm is he not supposed to be affected by the harsh reality of combat? Would you prefer that he be completely unaffected? Perhaps, just by a snowball’s chance in hell, he is just sick of seeing the multiple deployments of troops (his friends and fellow comrades) and his heart is saddened by the fact that so many good men are coming back a fraction of the people they were before war. Combat is harsh, but why are people so quick to dismiss it and just say, “get over it, you bunch of pussies, it’s war….it’s harsh.” I am so sick of that attitude being taken about it.
Chew on this for a while….Swank & Marchand’s WWII study showed that soldiers who do NOT show some signs of being a psychological casualty have one thing in common….and that is a predisposition towards an “aggressive psychopathic personality.” That essentially says that the crazy ones are the ones who come back from COMBAT just fine. So if J Hurd is part of the norm, then why attack him??
And in response to Jonn’s constant heckling about the story of almost shooting an Iraqi woman….LTC Dave Grossman spends a good portion of his book “On Killing” talking about DISTANCE. The one thing that sets psychological casualties apart from noncasualties is distance. Looking straight at someone and coming so close to killing them leads to a great amount of guilt. He also talks about distance and resistance to kill and how they are related. I could keep going on and on, but I recommend you read his book….it’s a great read for anybody. And for the record, LTC Grossman has never said anything about being anti-war, so I hope that won’t deter you.
Iraq over? hahaha That’s a laugh. If you are a Soldier and you are in Iraq, your in a war. Also, 50,000 Soldiers, no matter how they’ve been re-branded, is not the way you signal the end to a war.
As far as this latest IVAW action, no one has yet been able to tell me how they plan to actually help Service Members get help if they are facing deployment.
Jax:
I am going off of what he said about having to deal with someone regarding escalation of force. I am having a hard time why he got so emotional about a “Almost”. There were at least three times when there was a almost and the escalation of forces rules worked. So I would like to know how he expected it to go if this were to happen somewhere else? What was wrong with the system of escalations of force?
Debra:
No one is saying Iraq is finished but it’s events in the past years have shown that it is winding down and will be finished. That is why Afghanistan has has been the focus now then in the past. I mean did you ever hear of Afghanistan Vets Against the War in 2005?
Because even an almost situation can have a big impact on the human mind when it involves the possibility of taking a life in combat/war. Like I said, I would highly recommend reading some of LTC Grossman’s work, as he breaks it down & explains it very well. Some research also points to physical differences in the brains of individuals with PTSD. The question remains if those differences existed before or after the exposure. But those differences could point to why some people are more susceptible than others. That’s why I don’t think you guys should just brush off what Jason says about his experiences.
But again it comes down to what he tells us. If his biggest thing was that case were he almost had to use his weapon than I am not sure what the big deal is. If there is more we will look into that.
Also how many time solders had to use escalation of force rules. Also it does not help that he belongs to a group that had members claims PTSD from CQ and eating ice cream for 6 days in Afghanistan. It is like the boy that cried wolf, if people are going to claim PTSD for everything then people will stop taking new claims seriously regardless of if they are true or not.
Also considering that different type of of the past wars and today also plays into how people are affected. Consider WW1 when chemical weapons were used and how that can affect a person’s mental state.
Shouldn’t he be wearing a big DouCHE’ shirt w/ ‘ABIDE’ on it?
“Looking straight at someone and coming so close to killing them leads to a great amount of guilt”. Nope, it just isn’t true in all cases. I can’t speak for Col. Grossman’s experiences,or that of anyone else. I did come “so close” a few times, not in the Army, but in my career as a LEO. And, a good friend of mine shot and killed a guy who came at him with a knife. Did I have any guilt over the times when I “looked straight at someone” and came very close to squeezing the last 1/10th of an inch? Nope, never a second of guilt, and, believe me, I was looking them right in the eyes when I was ready to drop them. My friend never had a problem, ever, with what he did.
Well UpNorth, I applaud you for never having an ounce of guilt. Maybe you’re one of those lucky 2 percent.
And, once again, you all have brushed off what I said about the findings of actual physical differences within the brains of soldiers with PTSD.
Mr or Ms Anonymous in Jax, maybe you should clue us in on all your experience as a combat 11Bravo. Or are you just the common jaw jacker that knows …nothin?
You know,some of the drone pilots are crying PTSD while flying one of these things from LAS VEGAS. Gimme a freakin’ break!
As far as Debra goes, there’s you a non uniform wearing anti war twit if I ever saw one.
Jax… I’m brushing you off because you just talk and cite facts that are skewed to be convenient to your own rhetorical arguments. I feel guilty for not catching on to an IED that eventually exploded on some of our guys as I walked by relatively unharmed. However, I don’t feel guilty for almost shooting an Iraqi who technically fell under the ROE, but after a second thought, I opted not to shoot and instead chased him down. Feel free to posit your own first-hand accounting rather than you knew someone who saw something.
Anon, have YOU ever actually read LTC Grossman’s work, aside from quoting soundbites from killology.com? I have, he is a family friend, and one hell of a Warrior. I had the pleasure of attending his Battlemind seminar prior to deploying last year. Do NOT equate LTC Grossman’s writings with that POS that Jonn has been writing about. The guy is a coward. Yes, he has been to Iraq, but that does not excuse his behavior.
Joseph, Debra paid her dues in uniform as a CID Soldier, calm down boyo
Jax says:
“Chew on this for a while….Swank & Marchand’s WWII study showed that soldiers who do NOT show some signs of being a psychological casualty have one thing in common….and that is a predisposition towards an ‘aggressive psychopathic personality.'”
So you’re suggesting that people who come back from war without PTSD might have psychopathic personalities? Really? Hey, Jax, chew on this for a while…it’s my middle finger and it’s saying a big go fuck yourself.
Sorry, sorry…just my aggressive psychopathic personality acting up again. Really need to work on that.
Hurds a whiney Turd, end of Msg.
Hurd is a good amn and a personal friend. Regardless of what others here might think of him (or what he might think of Jonn,) he served his time and having spent time with him, I can attest that he does have nightmares. (Every night I cannot say.) PTSD is a very personal beast. As many of us here know PTSD has many stressors. What stesses one person beyond the breaking point may not leave any mark on another. I know several people who have been crippled by the fear of things that never actually happened. Yet, the waiting and the fear have casued long term anxiety and psychological damage.
I have read Grossman’s On Killing as well as several articles by/on him. I find it to be an excellent work. I also recomend War and the Soul, I cannot remember the author.
Anon, “one of those lucky two percent”? Maybe, I just put it down to affirming in my mind every day that I would be the one who went home every night/morning when my shift ended, I figured I owed that to myself. That seems to be a pretty good defense against your definition of PTSD. No guilt, no worries.
Hurd was testifying that the ROE didn’t work in Iraq. Yet he didn’t shoot the woman because he followed ROE. Apparently, the ROE worked.
We all have nightmares, none of mine include people I ALMOST shot. Many of my nightmares include members of IVAW. Maybe we should end IVAW because of my nightmares?
Joseph; in defense of Debra, she is a Vet.
As for anonymous in Jax; yeah, everyone deals with the power of life and death differently, however, no one ever mentioned war was sanitary and clean, at least not while I was growing up. I have read some of the diaries of men on the battlefield during WWI and it is amazing the horrors they saw and the way they described them in their journals.
Almost squeezing off a round on someone is like almost getting pregnant. I fail to see where guilt would come in to play when you actually didn’t do it. Would the guilt come from not drilling them? Or, would the guilt come from realizing that playing war with your buddies and being in war are two entirely different things? There is a difference, also, in being a volunteer and being a conscript. Did mr. Hurd join the military of his own accord in wartime, or was he kidnapped and forced into being a soldier?
So many people to answer to & so little time….no, I am not an 11B. I couldn’t be an infantryman even if I wanted to be because I am a female. So please forgive me for that one, as I really had no control over that. As for LTC Grossman’s work- yes, I have read his work & I find it to be quite interesting. In fact, the “sound bites” I was throwing out there weren’t pulled off of killology.com. I actually have one of LTC Grossman’s books on my nightstand. It applies to my field of study and I re-read chapters of the book quite frequently. And Jack, sorry if I hurt your feelings….it’s just that is what the study showed….wasn’t my data. I am simply trying to point out that everyone wants to mock Jason Hurd for his own personal story, but as one person up top mentioned, PTSD is a very personal beast. I also know Jason and am a personal friend of his & believe his struggle to be a genuine one (and believe me, I have met plenty of malingerers). To my knowledge, Jason wasn’t kidnapped and forced into being a soldier, but he did join against his father’s wishes (as his father had PTSD and didn’t want his son to go to war & experience those same things). I do believe Jason joined at a young age & we all know how immature and ill-informed we can be. That’s enough of that though, since you obviously will never change your opinion of Jason. I just don’t like to see a personal friend trash-talked. As for the comment from CPT Me about positing my own stories….well those are the stories I have….numerous stories of PTSD from the soldiers I treated at Walter Reed and in Iraq. Sorry if you don’t like them, but they are what I have. And so yes, maybe I am a little bit anti-war and maybe most of my PTSD stories are going to be the worst of the worst kind of stories, but like I said….those are the cases I… Read more »
Just an afterthought- the original place I heard about Swank & Marchand’s study was in LTC Grossman’s book, “On Killing.” So he cited that study too. Does that make it any easier for you guys to swallow??
Typical rhetoric… Nobody here doubts the effects of PTSD. But I seriously doubt that the “worst case” patients that you describe got that way from ALMOST shooting someone. That’s why thisclown is being mocked. Basing PTSD on such a scenario seems like just another opportunist using PTSD for his own devices. As someone who claims to deal with legitimate cases, I wonder why you aren’t madder than heck? Or is it because this guy is preaching to the choir?
No, it’s because I personally know Jason Hurd and believe he is genuine. He’s not one of the IVAW members you guys always complain about- he’s not with the ISO, he doesn’t burn flags, etc. etc. There are other IVAW members who are way less genuine in their PTSD claims in MY opinion and those people DO make me madder than hell, but thats a conversation for another day. As for how the people I dealt with got PTSD- they got it in a number of different ways….and I doubt Jason’s PTSD is the product of just ONE incident.
“No, it’s because I personally know Jason Hurd and believe he is genuine. He’s not one of the IVAW members you guys always complain about- he’s not with the ISO, he doesn’t burn flags, etc. etc.”
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Let’s say that he is genuine. Why the hell is he involved with the sh!tb@gs of IVAW? No one in their right mind joins with that bunch, especially not if they want to truly get help and make a difference.
The fact is that IVAW was exposed as a group of frauds and sh!tb@gs YEARS ago. No one takes them seriously, and has not taken them seriously for years now. Thus, anyone who is “genuine” and truly wants help and wants to make a difference should know better than to get in with that group.
Michael makes a great point… As the saying goes, if you lay with dogs you’re going to get fleas, or something like that… By hanging his hat with the IVAW crowd, he instantly loses credibility and does not get the benefit of the doubt.
I have met Jason Hurd and he is fucking rad! Why does he hang out with folks in IVAW? Because like it or not folks, most people in IVAW are veterans, no matter how many of you try to brand them traitors, deserters, cowards, fagets, sh@#bags, etc. I missed this recent conflict by just a few months (I got out in April 01, why does that seem like I describing getting out of prison???) but I didn’t have to leave the barracks or my base to see combat. I am part of probably the smallest minority in the military. A male soldier who was sexually assaulted by another male soldier and because of policies like “dont ask, dont tell”, and good old peer pressure, I never said a thing about what happened. I did what every soldier does, drowns themselves and their problems in alcohol and cigarettes. Till one day my luck ran out and I left a party wasted. You can imagine what happened and if you cant then allow me to illuminate, I will walk with a limp forever. I was just fortunate not to get deployed because Clinton “the good president” knew Americans wouldn’t be down for sustained conflict. They like their war like their food fast and cheap! Somalia ring any bells?? Operation recovery is a campaign and something we all can get behind. Why are we deploying troops who are on anti-depressants like Prozac and Zoloft??? Why are troops/vets asking for help and being denied it?? How are we, how are you going to help??? If you suffering from PTSD and they wanna deploy you there are people who can help. Find some in IVAW, Courage to Resist, call the G.I. Rights hotline. If you really think Vets are fine and the war is great then why did Jesse Charles Huff kill himself on the steps of the dayton, oh va??? Why are active duty suicides at an all time high??? 130 last year, that was 1 every 3 days! Ya they make it home and then they kill themselves. Why is that??? Could it… Read more »