Vet death I find hard to mourn

| July 31, 2024

Many of us older folks hereabouts recall the Vietnam War era. Some the war itself, some were sheltered in other places like Germany, some weren’t directly involved at all due to age, student status, asthma/bone spurs, what have you – but I suspect all remember the most infamous officer in the war, Lt. William Calley, the platoon leader held responsible for the My Lai massacre. He died on April 28th, according to the Washington Post. He was 80.

Calley had lived in obscurity in the decades since he was court-martialed and convicted in 1971, the only one of 25 men originally charged to be found guilty in the massacre that helped turn American opinion against the war in Vietnam.  AP

During the Tet Offensive in January 1968, attacks were carried out in Qu?ng Ngãi by the VC 48th Local Force Battalion. U.S. military intelligence assumed that the 48th Battalion, having retreated and dispersed, was taking refuge in the village of S?n M?, in Qu?ng Ngãi province. A number of specific hamlets within that village – designated M? Lai (1) through M? Lai (6) – were suspected of harboring the 48th. S?n M? was located southwest of the Batangan Peninsula, a VC stronghold throughout the war.

Task Force Barker was assigned to go after the 48th.

It was formed in January 1968, composed of three rifle companies of the 11th Brigade, including Charlie Company, led by Lieutenant Colonel (LTC) Frank A. Barker. S?n M? village was included in the area of operations of TF Barker.

In February 1968, TF Barker had already tried to secure S?n M?, with limited success. After that, the village area began to be referred to as Pinkville by TF Barker troops.

On 16–18 March, TF Barker planned to engage and destroy the remnants of the 48th Battalion, allegedly hiding in the S?n M? village area. Before the engagement, Colonel Oran K. Henderson, the 11th Brigade commander, urged his officers to “go in there aggressively, close with the enemy and wipe them out for good”. In turn, LTC Barker reportedly ordered the 1st Battalion commanders to burn the houses, kill the livestock, destroy food supplies, and destroy and/or poison the wells.

On the eve of the attack, at the Charlie Company briefing, Captain Ernest Medina told his men that nearly all the civilian residents of the hamlets in S?n M? village would have left for the market by 07:00, and that any who remained would most likely be VC or VC sympathizers.My Lai Wiki

Remember being lectured to about illegal orders? It was a hot topic for both enlisted an officers’ training 50 years back, and My Lai was why.

Instead, over several hours, the soldiers killed 504 unresisting civilians, mostly women, children and elderly men, in My Lai and a neighboring community.

The men were angry: Two days earlier, a booby trap had killed a sergeant, blinded a GI and wounded several others while Charlie Company was on patrol.

Soldiers eventually testified to the U.S. Army investigating commission that the murders began soon after Calley led Charlie Company’s first platoon into My Lai that morning. Some were bayoneted to death. Families were herded into bomb shelters and killed with hand grenades. Other civilians slaughtered in a drainage ditch. Women and girls were gang-raped.  AP

Some, including platoon leaders, testified that the orders, as they understood them, were to kill all VC and North Vietnamese combatants and “suspects” (including women and children, as well as all animals), to burn the village, and pollute the wells. He (CPT Medina – ed.)  was quoted as saying, “They’re all VC, now go and get them”, and was heard to reply to the question “Who is my enemy?”, by saying, “Anybody that was running from us, hiding from us, or appeared to be the enemy. If a man was running, shoot him, sometimes even if a woman with a rifle was running, shoot her.” My Lai Wiki

Out of 25 charged, only Calley was convicted. His defense was an Einsatzgruppen-like “I was just following orders” – many felt CPT Medina was culpable, but Medina was acquitted and Calley alone took the rap. He served three days of a life sentence before President Richard Nixon reduced his sentence to three years of house arrest.

Months after the massacre, he returned home, then re-upped for another tour. Eventually, he was wounded, awarded the Purple Heart, and won two Bronze Star medals.AP

Interestingly – I combed through quite a few images and all the ones of him in uniform show NO medals, not even an NDSM,  much less a Bronze Star. Only a CIB.

Category: Vietnam

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2banana

To some vets. That is the only one that matters.

“Interestingly – I combed through quite a few images and all the ones of him in uniform show NO medals, not even an NDSM, much less a Bronze Star. Only a CIB.”

5JC

They may have stripped him of his medals. BG Koster was stripped of his DSM when he was demoted for his role. He then resigned right after.

2banana

Sometimes?

“If a man was running, shoot him, sometimes even if a woman with a rifle was running, shoot her.”

Anonymous

As depicted by Stanley Kubrick:

Last edited 4 months ago by Anonymous
RCAF-CHAIRBORNE

Get some!

USMC Steve

The dude above is the guy they originally wanted to play the DI in that movie. After half an hour pretending to be a DI he was too tired to go on. Ermey did the heavy lifting from there.

Dave

Even tho he was involved, he was the scapegoat. Seems like more should have paid the legal price, especially Medina.

5JC

Yep.

SFC D

Absolutely concur. This atrocity did not start with Calley.

Last edited 4 months ago by SFC D
KoB

And not the FIRST ( 😉 ) time that American Troops wiped out villages. (see Creek, Sand and/or Knee, Wounded)

Some say Calley shoulda gotten more punishment, others say he was following what he thought, at the time, were lawful orders. I served with NCOs and Mustangs that had been in country at the same time and had been in similar circumstances. Only thing that they really agreed on was that The Ring Knockers, for the most part, were protected, and Calley was persecuted for…reasons.

War is dangerous for children, women, and other living things. If the politicians had to fight the wars they started, there wouldn’t be any wars.

SFC D

You’re absolutely right, Calley didn’t invent that. He seriously took one for the team, though.

Skippy

Agree
The LT was definitely the fall guy

Anonymous

Blame the LT who got through OBC on his second recycle.

Anonymous

P.S. Born in ’43, graduated high school in ’62 (at 19) so he flunked a grade in there, too.

Last edited 4 months ago by Anonymous
RCAF-CHAIRBORNE

He was scapegoated much like Breaker Morant, Harry Handcock and of course, Chauvin.

rgr769

No. He gave the orders to kill non-combatant civilian women and children. Moreover, he participated directly in shooting some of the victims.

SFC D

He’s guilty as hell, but he shouldn’t have been the only one convicted.

rgr769

I agree. Medina was guilty and so were other officers and NCO’s.

RCAF-CHAIRBORNE

He definitely was guilty, but he and Harry weren’t the only ones who practiced Rule .303
It’s more about the selective prosecution as it was much less controversial to execute ‘ Colonials ‘ than a British officer who likely came from the ruling class and had friends in high places.

Much like Breaker and Harry, Calley shouldn’t have been the only one who got the book thrown at him. Selective enforcement is the injustice.

Last edited 4 months ago by RCAF-CHAIRBORNE
Marine0331

Agreed Dave! I was a just a kid back then but read a book and several bits of documentary over the years and yes, Capt. Medina should have been held responsible as well. I remember reading that the troops pretty much all hated Calley and that he was of low intelligence (could not read a compass), but this smells of the upper echelon just wanting to shut up all of the voices and find a scapegoat. Very much like Captain McVay being court marshalled for hazarding his ship in WWII. Of course, that was total bullshit and probably had more to do with a high-ranking Admiral who hated McVay’s father and wanted to get him back by busting his son. Calley, on the other hand was guilty as hell, but was NOT the sole officer responsible. Sounded to me from what I read that he carried out his orders as he understood them.

5JC

By the time I was in officer training Thompson was part of a case study in ethical courage with Calley the example for not following or issuing illegal orders. There were few Vietnam vets left serving at that time but they all hated Thompson, second only to Jane Fonda.

FuzeVT

Warrant Officer Hugh Thompson Jr.? If they really hated him, did that mean they were ok with what Calley/Medina did? Seems strange to me. For context, I’m 51 and served from 1995-2019 so that wasn’t my war.

5JC

This was pre-google and the amount of rumors and falsehoods that were floating around were epic.

FuzeVT

Shoot, it’s not like you get solid information FROM Google.

Anonymous

There was a lot of “they all want to kill us, f*ck ’em” attitude and Calley/Medina killed them right back. Thompson interfered. That was it.

Last edited 4 months ago by Anonymous
FuzeVT

Months after the massacre, he returned home, then re-upped for another tour. Eventually, he was wounded, awarded the Purple Heart, and won two Bronze Star medals.AP

Didn’t know that.

Just An Old Dog

He never was fully reinstated and never did another tour.

Deckie

It says that on his death certificate, the section asking if the deceased is a veteran of the armed forces was checked “no.”

USAFRetired

Vietnam was my father’s war. He served as part of 1 MAW at Danang.

I remember the reporting nightly of the courts martial as it occurred while my father was serving in-country.

Sam

Maybe someone from the Americal Division will some day tell us “the rest of the story.”

Anonymous

Whose combat patch is he wearing on his right shoulder? After all that, one would think he’d have Americal on there (like Colin Powell).
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Last edited 4 months ago by Anonymous
rgr769

The above patch is the 23rd ID patch. In the pic Calley is wearing the patch of the 11th Inf. Brigade, one of the three division brigades.

Anonymous

“The brigade is known for its responsibility in the My Lai Massacre,” says Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_Infantry_Brigade_(United_States)
comment image

Last edited 4 months ago by Anonymous
USMC Steve

I didn’t know anything about him going back over and apparently doing his job correctly.

Old tanker

I have a question. Is this paragraph referring to calley or medina?

Months after the massacre, he returned home, then re-upped for another tour. Eventually, he was wounded, awarded the Purple Heart, and won two Bronze Star medals.AP

Seems to me a conviction in a courts marshal would preclude staying in the military particularly since the original sentence was for life. Even if the sentence was commuted the conviction still stood.

SFC D

It may have been prior to the court martial.

Anonymous

Got his ass kicked by Marines in ‘Nam on his second tour before getting arrested for My Lai in ’69.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley

Last edited 4 months ago by Anonymous
rgr769

There was no second tour.

Anonymous

Did he extend? Was still over there in May/June ’69 before being busted and My Lai was March ’68 w/ a one-year tour.

Anonymous

P.S. Ah, I see your stuff on it below…

rgr769

No, he was flagged. When charges are preferred or there is an Article 32 investigation, the suspect is administratively “flagged” and cannot DEROS, rotate at end of tour. This occurred to three men in my company in Germany, who were being held on charges by the German authorities.

I believe Calley was still in Chu Lai on hold until sometime in early 1969. I imagine once the investigation resulted in charges, he was shipped back to the states. Supposedly, per Wikipedia, he was formally arrested for his crimes sometime in 1969. According to Colonel William Wilson, investigating officer for the IG, he directed that Calley be returned to CONUS from Vietnam by June 9, 1969. His harrowing tale of what he uncovered is in his article in American Heritage.com dated Feb.,1990. Read it if you want the whole truth.

Anonymous

He was flagged when he and two occifer buddies out and about mistook Marines for soldiers (probably being *ssholes about it) and they took offense then.

USMC Steve

The Marines beat the Army officers asses and only stopped when one of the officers produced a .45 and loaded up. They were indeed being assholes and the Marines didn’t recognize them as officers.

jeff LPH 3 63-66

I remember the incident. Didn’t know calley had a year on me in age.

President Elect Toxic Deplorable Racist SAH Neande

1971, the year I graduated HS. I joined up 1978, My Lai was before my time.
But I remember all the news stories and fuss about it.
I still feel that he was a patsy, someone higher up (who was not punished) tripped his trigger. Yes, he could have denied that illegal order, but didn’t.

USMC Steve

If I recall correctly, the Americal was always a problem child outfit. Their performance in Vietnam got to be so problematic that they just started calling them the 23rd Infantry Division, vice the Americal.

rgr769

False. The Americal was always denominated the 23rd Infantry Division. American was a nickname from WWII. And no, it was not a “problem child” any more than any other leg infantry division. It simply had the misfortune of Calley. I served in it and the 4th ID. Both had comparable problems, but operated quite efficiently, IMHO. Anyway, that was my “lived experience,” as the Progs like to say.

rgr769

Effing autocorrect!!! That should say “Americal.”

Sam

The Americal commander comes out better than others. As I understood it from someone who was with him.

USMC Steve

My point was that the Army stopped referring to them as the “Americal” and started referring to them by the division number. Others who served in it during Vietnam that I talked to had a rather low opinion of it and a lot of the people in it during the war, at least the later stages of it.

rgr769

Well I was in it for the last 10 months of its existence. So I’ll stick with my assessment. Plus, I spent most of that time as a rifle company commander, a Ranger company commander, and on fire bases as a staff officer. So, I have a broader perspective than whoever you talked to.

rgr769

When the Americal was first reactivated in September 1967, it was designated “23rd Infantry Division (Americal).” That is what all my division level orders say. So, your supposition is false. Its immediate predecessor was a division sized task force called Task Force Oregon. Read some history instead of making shit up, Marine.

USMC Steve

I will stick with what I was told by some folks that were there in it. People who actually made some of that history. That outfit’s sole claim to fame other than losing several major engagements, was the largest mass murder conducted by allied forces in the war. Glad you were impressed with them though.

rgr769

I never said I was “impressed” with the entire division. Like every combat unit in that war, there were good, competent, well functioning infantry companies, led by competent officers and NCO’s that never harmed unarmed civilians. And occasionally there were bad ones. Even the vaunted 1st Cavalry Division had a rifle company that mutinied. You can’t make broad generalizations about dozens of units over a fifteen year long war, based on one event by a couple dozen men. I had excellent officers and some terrible ones, across two battalions in two different divisions and a separate brigade.

No officer, I ever served with said what Calley and his platoon did was okay.

USMC Steve

I did some further research and found that there was no way Calley ever went back to Vietnam, as he was either under house arrest or jail or filing appeals until late 1975. Not sure who wrote that original source article but they were wrong.

SFC D

The writer wouldn’t have passed my freshman year (high school) English class, but I’m thinking Calley’s second tour may have been before the court martial, when the Army thought they’d successfully covered their collective asses.

rgr769

False.

rgr769

As soon as what Calley did came to light at division level, his investigation began, and he was aggressively prosecuted. Five of the six officers on his court martial jury were Vietnam combat veterans; they all voted to convict him.

rgr769

There were some inquiries about what happened at My Lai before the IG investigation by Col. Wilson. Commanders at brigade and division level did attempt to cover up or whitewash what occurred.

Anonymous

About like that stupid article that said Steele of Black Hawk Down fame got relieved as a Bn Cdr w/o doing sh*t because the Bde Cdr and a peer Bn Cdr lied about dumb stuff and we got taught that at an Army school (Don’t do unethical sh*t as a leader ’cause you’ll get shafted anywhere near it!) because nobody made sure the material was straight and found Steele actual jacked-up his career as a Bde Cdr w/o being reilieved.

rgr769

You are correct. Calley was flagged over the investigation of his crimes and reassigned to another unit in Chu Lai until he was shipped back to the states. He was forever a 2LT butterbar. Platoon leader was the only assignment he ever had. He sat around Chu Lai with nothing to do until sent back to Ft. Benning for court martial. He did not have a second tour. He was confined to quarters until convicted. Every infantry officer I served with thought he was a murderer who should have served 20 years or more in Leavenworth.

Claw

Well, he does have 18 months (3) worth of Overseas Service Bars sewn onto the right sleeve of the Greens uniform, so there is that.

rgr769

Calley may very well have extended for some months after his year tour was us up. But there was a division level investigation that caused him to be flagged. I served with guys that were in Chu Lai when he was flagged and first being investigated. He never returned to RVN on a second tour; he was still in Chu Lai in May, 1969.

timactual

“Remember being lectured to about illegal orders? It was a hot topic for both enlisted an officers’ training 50 years back and My Lai was why.”

I arrived in RVN about the time of My Lai and well before it was public knowledge. I can’t speak about everyone’s experiences there, but Everybody who arrived at Cam Ranh Bay went through at least a week of processing and orientation. A prominent topic in that orientation was Rules of Engagement. It was stressed that killing or otherwise abusing civilians, even VC suspects, was a no-no and would be punished under the UCMJ. We also received a briefing and a wallet sized card listing our rights as a POW under the Geneva convention. That last I still find amusing.

Upon arrival at An Khe, then the HQ of the 1st Cav. Div., we received another week or so of orientation and training. Among the topics was, again, a briefing on rules of engagement. Once again, we were told mistreating civilians was a no-no.

So, any idea that what are sometimes called War Crimes was encouraged or a general policy of the US is Bullshit. Any idea that Calley or his men were unaware of the official ROE are also Bullshit. Were there assholes who abused Vietnamese civilians? Yes. So what? There were assholes like that in Germany where I was also stationed, and there were assholes like that in WWII. Calley was a murdering SOB who deserved to hang. As were some of his subordinates.

It ain’t rocket science, folks. The same rules apply here and now in the US; you do not rape, kill, rob, or abuse other people. If you don’t know that by the time you are 18, you should be in jail just on general principles.

rgr769

You are absolutely right, and that was my experience.

Shortly before I left RVN in 1971, I was tasked with conducting an Article 32 investigation into whether or not an NVA prisoner had been hit with a rifle butt when he was captured. The investigation was triggered simply because the enemy POW told an MI interrogator that someone hit him with a rifle butt. There were no significant or even apparent injuries to the man, but the MI unit initiated the investigation. I could find no evidence that it even occurred. The MI lieutenant admitted he saw no appearance of a physical injury to the prisoner.