A-10 vs. F-35 report released – sorta
OK, let’s make one thing clear: I am a dry-land kinda guy. No amphobious (intentional misspelling) stuff, no higher’n corn, no lower than potato(e)s, not a wingwipe and could probably barely fly a plane to the scene of the crash.
Now we all know the Air Force has been trying to get rid of the A-10 since, well, they got it. Not exciting or sexy enough for the pilots, they say. But its battlefield abilities are unquestioned. Nowadays, the Air Force says all its functions can be done better with an F-35, and in 2018-19 they tested both planes in a variety of scenarios to see how they stacked up. Then they effectively buried the test results, and after finally resurfacing them, redacted the report heavily..
The flyoff focused on the relative abilities of the A-10C and the F-35A to perform three distinct mission sets: close air support (CAS), airborne forward air control (FAC[A]), and combat search and rescue (CSAR). Unclassified official definitions of those mission sets from the reports are reproduced below.
The ability of the A-10 and the F-35 to perform each of the three mission sets was judged on a variety of factors, but the report lists two critical metrics for each one. For CAS this was targeting time and engagement time. When it came to FAC(A) the focus was on brief generation time and correlation time. Lastly, coordination time and recovery time were the primary measures of performance with regard to CSAR.
All testing was done on a low- to medium-threat basis, since the A-10 was not designed for a high-threat (ie. dense SAM coverage) environment.
A-10s and F-35s involved in the flyoff flew a combined total of 117 and a half flight hours across 69 sorties.
Nowhere in the unredacted portions of the report is any definitive statement about whether the A-10 or the F-35 was deemed to be superior for conducting any of the three missions in either permissive or contested environments. The first bullet point in the executive summary, which might offer a broad general conclusion about the results of the flyoff, is entirely redacted.
A partially redacted section strongly indicates the flyoff concluded that more F-35 sorties than A-10 sorties would be needed to prosecute the same number of targets in permissive environments. This makes sense given the Warthog’s substantially larger payload capacity. However, this portion of the report also notes that “the number of sorties necessary to complete the same mission objectives in contested environments would depend on air defense suppression plans.”
There is too much in it to summarize briefly, so WarZone is the place to go. A few salient facts:
1) The CAS testing seems skewed to favor the F-35’s more limited targeting abilities.
2) For CAS, the A-10’s 30mm gun has 6 times the ammo capacity of the F-35’s 25mm gun.
3) You can mount a mix of weapons on the A-10’s wing hard points. On an F-35, apparently they all have to be the same – and mounting weapons there significantly reduces the “stealth” part of it. Sounds to me like that limits its adaptability to a changing mission in flight significantly.
4) Ground communications were restricted in a way that slowed A-10 response times.
5) Even with inert weapons, assessments were performed by computer imaging and self-evaluation.
6) And, has been said before, the Air Force is making no effort to pass along all the hard-won CAS knowledge the A-10 community has gained over the years.
From the sounds of it, the Air Force stacked the deck to make the F-35 shine as much as possible, despite its minimal loiter time, high expense, and limited adaptability. Read the article – maybe I’m wrong.
Category: "Your Tax Dollars At Work", Air Force, None
The A-10 may have the term “Hog” in its name but the ’35 is a pig with lipstick. The A-10 also has the word “War” in its name. God forbid that TPTB ask the WARrior that is going to be in a War, which he would rather have. One that is ham(ming) for the publicity or one that will make sausage out of bad guys. The Wart Hog is the one I’d count on for bringing home the bacon. Maybe to ’35 just had too much pork in it to chop it from the procurement links? I’m not ribbing about that so don’t give me a cold shoulder.
(GROOOOOAN!!!)
“minimal loiter time”
Now that’s where us Signal guys shine…..
There’s a joke in there somewhere, but I’ll leave it to someone else to take the shot. 🤣
If things are installed, operated, and maintained the way they should be, nobody even knows we’re there and loitering is all we do. Oh shit, that’s classified. Gotta go hide from the E4 Mafia know. That’s assuming they actually exist.
Fine, I’ll say it:
“Minimal loiter time?” That’s what SHE said!
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
Get in get out…..
Yo ho, yo ho, yo ho!
Avast there, Shipwreck.
Get off me, you’re heavy.
Two very different aircraft with two very different missions.
Kinda like comparing apples and fucking sweet potatoes.
I will take an A-10 anyday.
However, the AF staunchly maintains the one can do what the other does.
“okay, gimme 250 rounds!”
The real cool thing about the A-10 (well, there are many): it can go slow.
Go slow and fire a shitload of rounds the size of Coke bottles.
While carrying more deliverable ordinance than a B-17.
Each one individually targeted, not “to whom ot may concern”.
And then turn on the dime and do it again.
“Stacked the deck to make the F-35 shine as much as possible…” so “The Big Guy” can get his percentage (cut) on a program that DoD is heavily invested in.
FJB and F*ck Lloyd Austin.
In no way am I defending those two (have voted pretty much a straight GOP ticket since Bush 1), but I think big Air Force has always hated having the CAS mission all these years, yet had too much pride to turn it over to the Army. I kind of wish they had started up an A-29 Super Tucano operational squadron or too, instead of handing them off to the Taliban.
And we already know how the F-35 fares as an “air-superiority fighter.” A 40-year old F-16 kicked its ass in a simulated dogfight.
The F-35: aviation’s version of the Littoral Combat Ship.
Now, I love my A10, and I’m not saying this to compliment F35s but the reason we do love A10s is because they have been operating in as permissive an environment as it can get for the last 20 years. If we fight the wars we are preparing to fight, I’m not positive the A10 will survive the first couple rounds. I’m not saying the F35 is all that, but don’t extrapolate from Warthog’s lethality in a permissive environment to what it would / could deliver in a contested one. Were I on the frontlines in Large Scale Combat Operations, what I want over me is the platform that can deliver for multiple sorties and then come back tomorrow and the next day. If this study only considered low or medium threat environments because the A10 isn’t built for high threat environments, then it is really an irrelevant study, unless we are planning not to fight in a high-threat environment (and we aren’t). Just my opinion.
“the A10 isn’t built for high threat environments,”
Need to define “high-threat”. I would consider the airspace over soviet armored & mechanized formations, where the A-10 was designed to operate, as a “high-threat” environment.
Yes, but its ability to do so in the late 70s and 80s was iffy and it has only gotten far more complex since then.
By that logic, we should convert our Airborne and Air Assault units to leg infantry. If an A-10 can’t survive in a high threat environment, neither can a C-130, a Blackhawk, or a Chinook.
The usefullness of parachute troops is very limited and is certainly, as you say, not useful at all in a high threat environment. Helicopters aren’t much better. I think perhaps the Russians would agree.
If airborne was really worth a shit on the battlefield, there would not be only slightly more than one division in the Army that does it. The concept is obsolete.
The survival of any aircraft engaged in CAS is iffy; always has been, from WWI on. That would include the F-35 as well as the A-10. The goal is to accomplish a mission with an acceptable loss rate. If it means you win the war, a loss rate of 100% may be acceptable.
Iraqi Republican Guard had shitpots of triple-A and SAMs.
That’s why we have Wild Weasels.
A-10s did just fine.
And the current Ukraine mess indicates that Soviets/Russia probably were never the supers they tried to pretend to be.
It wasn’t just the Soviets who tried to pretend they were supers. As we found out when the USSR collapsed and we could compare CIA estimates with reality. There are still some who try to portray Russia as some humongous threat to “civilization as we know it”.
True, it was DESIGNED to do that, but it never did it. So there is no way of knowing if it would have failed in that environment or not. Other than First Gulf War, it has operated in a non threat environment pretty exclusively.
We all remember how the USAF tried to push a green painted A-16 Fighting Falcon to replace the A-10.
This USAF fact sheet lists all the virtues of the A-10C.
https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/104490/a-10c-thunderbolt-ii/
It is simple to operate. It can operate from austere runways closer to the action. It can carry smart weapons and fight at night or adverse weather. And it is very tough.
In fact the only special equipment that is A-10 specific is the loader for the 30mm ammo IIRC. So no matter how much the USAF pushes the Joint Strike Fighter, even though it was originally supposed to be an AV-8 Harrier replacement, it will never fully even meet the capabilities of the A-10C.
I should add this for historical perspective, when the Army Air Force tested the Me 262A against the likes of the P-80 Shooting Star the full report was never released.
There is a reason that obsolete, propeller-driven A-1s were preferred over faster, newer, F-4s, etc. for CSAR in Vietnam. There is also a reason slow, propeller-driven L-19s and OV-10s were preferred over high-speed jets for FAC missions.
As far as A-10s not being as suitable for high-threat environments as the F-35, it might be useful to remember just what environment the A-10 was designed to operate in and its design characteristics vs. the F-35.
It might also be useful to consider that all those missions require operating in/among/around terrain (i.e. low & slow), not above/over the terrain, as the F-35 was designed to do.
We do need a replacement for the A-10, and it’s not an F-35.
I might be showing my age, but I remember how well the A10 performed during Desert Storm. I’ll take it over the F35.
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/0893warthog/#:~:text=The%20A%2D10%20force%2C%20flying,that%20was%20repaired%20between%20sorties.
If the results had favored the F-35, the Air Force would have shouted it from the rooftops. Since the report had to “be heavily” redacted, it’s pretty obvious the F-35 got it’s feathered ass kicked by the A-10.
The F-35A performs the CAS mission better than the A-10C.
Yeah.
OK.
Sure.
In first Gulf War, the pilots flying the A10 were almost all guard pilots. The Air Force didn’t want it. When they saw how awesomely effective it was, the zoomies wanted it back.