It is to laugh
I was perfectly happy to leave Jeff Bartos and IVAW alone after Bartos, the co-founder of the Connecticut Chapter of IVAW, was arrested at the G-20 protest in Pittsburgh last week. But I could hardly let this pass from another blog;
…Jeff Bartos was arrested last week at G20 protests while attending to the medical needs of a reporter that had been teargassed by police. After hearing of this arrest, the antiwar movement managed to flood the Allegheny County Jail with enough phone calls to engineer his release.
First of all, I’m pretty sure he was arrested for rendering medical attention – the police have nothing better to do than arrest people for stuff like that. I imagine he got mouthy with a cop and found himself unceremoniously tossed in the back of the paddy wagon.
Secondly, the anti-war movement flooded the jailhouse with calls, but not money. The IVAW put out a call for money Saturday night to bail Jeff out – and they were able to tap their 1700 members’ pockets for over half of his $200 bail. TSO and I were joking about it the other night. Their 1700 members must’ve given over $.06 per person to get the more than $100 together. We’re so proud of them.
In fact, if all of those people who called the police station had sent the cost of the phone call instead, they might have covered his whole bail. Phone calls don’t get people out of jail – money does.
Category: Antiwar crowd, Iraq Veterans Against the War
Actually, it makes perfect sense how he could be arrested for rendering medical attention. If a reporter was staying in an area that had been gassed and that the police were trying to clear, and Jeff stayed behind to help the reporter, the police probably would have arrested him for failure to disperse. I’m just throwing up one potential scenario. IVAW members are known for rendering medical aid at protests to all sorts of minor casualties, because even military basic-joe medical training is more than most civilians have.
This will undoubtedly be received by TSO tearing his hair and asking how I can be so ridiculous. Five dollars says yes.
You should have sent the five dollars to Jeff.
“Attending to the medical needs of a reporter”? What, he poured water in his eyes and told him not to rub them? And face into the wind. That’s about it for first aid for CS. And, if you don’t move when told to move, you’ll probably get arrested, even though you’re the second coming of Mother Teresa. Meanwhile, Jeff knows why he was arrested, it’s on his booking sheet/property receipt he was given when he bonded out.
You should have sent the five dollars to Jeff.
That would have made her the highest bidder, right?
I have to agree with upnorth. You really cannot do much for CS gas. It goes away on it’s own.
Also about the medical training of CLS that is done by the military, I have to question that the people who are protesting the military are getting the befits done by the same thing they are protesting.
WHAT??!! CS was used instead of pepper spray / gas?? (sigh) Now THAT would have gotten some action! Wusses.
Sporkmaster: I don’t protest the military, I protest a war I don’t think was necessary. I have no problem with the military as an institution, or the skills I gained from it.
So, like Jesse, you don’t mind killing, it’s that you don’t like killing these Iraqis at this time?
How about Afghanis? Do you not like killing Afghanis?
What about jahadis planting an IED along the road? Would you mind killing them?
Once you say you don’t mind the military (as an institution or the skills), we’r down to haggling over which type of people you wouldn’t mind killing…
AS: You’re contradicting yourself. The military carries out the orders of the civilian government. They don’t get to pick and choose which engagements they want to get into. Just as E-1s thru O-8s don’t get to decide if they agree with whatever war, or engagement they are tasked with. That’s not their decision. In fact, the decision is made the second you raise your right hand. Why don’t you get that part? As a NCO you should have figured that out long ago.
The military, as an institution, isn’t there for social experiments, those who want to be the conscience of the world, or whatever. They are there to do the bidding of the government. At the lower levels, it gets even more simple; they’re there to kill bad guys and break shit.
So, it comes down to whether you want to wear that uniform and carry out your orders, or you want to decide for yourself, whether a war, or engagement, is worthy of your time and talents. The latter is not how the game is played, if you wear the uniform.
Jesse, you’re a tool, an instrument of policy. When you took your oath, remember the part, “against all enemies, foreign and domestic?” Not, “against all enemies, unless I really don’t feel like it.”
OldTrooper: You can follow and carry out your orders, and still work to convince the civilian government to change their minds. You’re right, the military acts as a tool of the civilian government, and sometimes the civilians are wrong. But we are citizen-soldiers, we do not put down our responsibility to be active participants in the country’s politics when we put on a uniform. We don’t have to agree with what we’re doing in order to fight in the war-but at the same time, because we’re fighting in the war does not mean that we have to agree with it.
Dutch: I think that you are being deliberately provocative. I don’t think anyone really enjoys killing. Causing the death of other human beings is something solemn. Sometimes it has to be done, but it’s not an occasion to “mind” or “not mind”.
I think that we should withdraw from Iraq. I think we should pull all our troops out now. That belief has nothing to do with the “would you pull the trigger or not” belief.
SA: Why do you use the ever popular leftist tripe of “pull out now”? What would that accomplish? Would Iraq be in better shape if we did? Would the bad guys move back in and then we can sit back and watch a civil war from the comfort of our living rooms? What do you think would happen if we did just as you propose? Where do you get the evidence to back up your assertion? Remember what happened the last time we left Iraq in ’91?
The President is ready to cut and run from A-stan, is waffling on troop increases, and John F-ing Kerry (did you know he was in Vietnam?), amongst others, approving of such a measure. Is that what we should do there, also? Where does your doctrine on what war is valid come from?
Being a member of a group that votes not to remove those that advocate for domestic terrorism, sabotage, and fratricide, doesn’t pass the test for trying to convince the government to change their minds.
I know it doesn’t sit well with me, when I have people very close to me, that are in the shit right now.
I honestly don’t read AS comments anymore. Was giving me high blood pressure.
However, AS, as a soldier your ‘job’ includes the possibility of killing. You stated that you don’t mind the skills or the institution of the military, which only a fool would think would not include killing, but you don’t think killing Iraqis is right.
Well, okey-dokey then. For some strange reason you don’t want to kill Iraqis. I asked you if you minded killing Afghanis and but your answer it seems you do. How about those IED planters? Would your social morals allow you to kill them?
It may ease your soul to think about the lives you may save by killing them, if you must. Soldiers have had to justify their profession for a long long time.
I have no doubts the enemy would cut your head off with a bayonet if they got the chance. They wouldn’t car if it was in iraq or Afghanistan, or in the safe warm REMF that is Germany.
My question to you earlier is why you think the war in iraq is ‘illegal’ and how you justify questioning your orders as being unlawful in regards to Iraq?
Next, since you don’t believe in the Iraq campaign, your justification of the Afghan campaign since all intel sources are sure OBL is in Pakistan?
Lastly, since killing is never enjoyable (but I think if you look hard enough you’ll find plenty of people who think otherwise)why do people do it all the time?
Was IVAW always a seeming front for organizations like ISO that can care less about veteran well being. What I mean is was it always about “resisting” (deployment/capitalism) or did the original founders actually seek actual Iraq veterans who are outside the fringes of society? I mean this as an honest question and not an insult. I will always respect the veterans of IVAW for serving, and hold no ill thoughts to them or the group they’ve chosen to be a part of, but as a philanthropy or lobbying group or strength in numbers organization, it seems to be a failure.
When I served, I knew that the WMD wasn’t exactly the best justification to hang our hats on (UN resolutions/evil dictator without the extra WMD crap would have been justification enough, although Congress may not have approved to make it legal… yes Jesse, legal… blah blah).
My point is there were plenty of people, including myself, who said they would rather be fighting in Afghanistan because they believed in the cause and remembered 9/11. This crowd could have been fertile recruiting for IVAW. But I couldn’t consider joining IVAW because I am proud of my service in Iraq and have no regrets to the firefight results (AS is correct that this is solemn and not prideful), and also have no regrets for breaking shit (ode to Oldtrooper) because I served with honor and integrity at least the best I could. I don’t want to associate with groups like ISO, which is from my vantage point where IVAW has gone. To do otherwise would be an insult to those serving and just trying to get that year over with.
Dutch: I have never said “I don’t think killing Iraqis is right”. I have never made things that simplistic. Your trying to make it for me doesn’t make it so. I’ve said, it’s not about the morality of whether it is right to kill in a war which is not a “just war”. I believe in just war theory. However, if I am in a war which is not a just war, I will still do my job, as long as it’s not illegal or immoral. You ask me to kill kids for example, I don’t care what war we’re in, I won’t do it. But people do not usually fight (and kill) for the civilian causes, they do it because if they don’t, their friends and comrades may be the ones to die. I did my job even though I thought the war was wrong, because it wasn’t about that. I haven’t said I’ve gotten any unlawful orders re: Iraq. What I have said is that I don’t believe it was a just war, I don’t believe it was a necessary war, and I personally wish for it to be over and will advocate towards that end. OldTrooper: My personal opinion, and I don’t speak for the organization when I say this, is that the Middle East has been killing each other for 2000 years and I don’t think we can stop it in ten, or twenty, or thirty, or even a hundred. As far as my definition of what war is valid or not, it is very similar to just war theory, if you’re familiar with that. This might be because I was raised Catholic. I believe that war is a necessary evil which should still be considered gravely before entering into it. Is the war necessary? Will the war do more good than harm? Have all other options been exhausted? Is the war offensive or defensive? Will the war in fact make your countrymen more safe? (and no, this doesn’t make me a CO: “All those who enter the military service in loyalty to their country should… Read more »
“TAH doesn’t profile the usual members….”
If you’d introduce me to both of them, maybe I would.
Bob, IVAW may have started with the best of intentions, however, I can’t answer that for them. It turned pretty quickly, once groups like VFP latched on and some others like ISO had their own minions involved with the group. What sent them to the shit pile was the vote, when they had the chance to denounce those within their group who advocate fratricide and sabotage against our own; and they didn’t.
As for the merits of Iraq…….To be honest, I wasn’t for it, either, because I thought that the pressing engagement was A-stan, as well. However, once the case was made (I agree it could have been made without the WMD claim) and our troops were there, I was completely supportive. Whether right, wrong, or sideways, once we started, then we better sure as hell win, period.
IVAW had their coming out party at a VFP convention. Whatever influence VFP has over IVAW began before they were formed.
AS,
TAH isn’t the only thing I read. I base my view on the current state of IVAW on the fact that the chair didn’t serve in Iraq, the circus surrounding James Branum and friends, and the fact the IVAW seems to be involving itself as an organization with these fringy groups like ISO, Hugo Chavez. I could be wrong, but my impression is that Winter Soldier participants were not vetted properly which left the credibility in question.
I don’t know enough about VFP to make any conclusions, but a look through the IVAW site showed G-20 anti-capitalism policy by the director, mass accolades to Watada, a red star (at least what it looks like on my computer) for the browser icon, a whole section on “war resistors,” a mission statement that justifies “resisting” due to the “illegal war,” and then some links and projects that appear to be afterthoughts.
Was it always like this?
Bob,
The current Chair did serve in Iraq. So did the last one. I understand that from the outside, it looks like IVAW is deliberately surrounding itself with the ISO. Instead, the ISO has deliberately tried to take over and take down IVAW. It has not succeeded, but unfortunately they have left an impression. What can I say? They have a lot of money, pet journalists, and a propaganda machine that is far out of proportion to the intelligence of most leaders of that organization.
I can’t see any red star for a browser icon on the IVAW page. I use firefox. Has anyone else had that experience? Also, I hate to showcase my ignorance, but what does it mean? I have vague imagery of Russian crap but I could be wrong and would hate to step out there and talk about something I didn’t know anything about.
Bob, I would honestly be interested in answering some of your questions about IVAW. Please feel free to email me at sgtivaw (at) gmail (dot) com. I don’t want to miss any of it just because I can’t track replies to this thread. 🙂
I think part of the difficulty is also the difference in what is meant by “Resistance”. When some people speak of it, they do mean refusing to deploy, but that isn’t all it’s about by any means. Resistance is also used to refer to “GI Dissent”, soldiers who have different views and don’t want to be quiet about them just because they wear a uniform for most of the day. My blog, for example, has been viewed by many as “GI Resistance”, yet it is perfectly law abiding and conforms to current Army regulations. It’s a really catch-all term.
Jonn: Funny, funny. You know, I actually think there are a lot of IVAW members that if you met and they didn’t have their T-shirt on, you’d love.
AS: Decent enough answer. I am just trying to understand the peace movement, AS. Although I may seem to come off as…whatever it was that you sad I was coming off as, I do try to understand the twists and turns it takes for someone who is or was a soldier to protest a war.
So, you are perfectly fine that we are in Afghanistan then?
Thanks for the response, AS. I did feel like I was a bit harsh in my last comment and didn’t mean to make a “reasons why I won’t join” list.
As I said earlier, I have no problems with IVAW, and do have sympathy if your organization and its original intent has been hijacked. I guess the way to rectify this situation is to have strong IVAW leadership who take stands on things such as disassociating from ISO and Branum types. Not sure how it would be done, but I wish you the best of luck.
The red star as I see it appears on the browser tab of the newer version of Internet Explorer. On first glance, and if my color/contrast is set correctly and it is indeed red, it seems the same as the old Soviet/Communist star that one would see on Soviet military machines like tanks and jets. I know it’s not the 50s-80s, but i am interested to see if others see the same thing I am seeing.
Well the thing I find really amusing about the whole Communist/Socialist/Far Left/anti-war nexus is that I would put money on the table that they don’t have the first clue as to how COs, draft dodgers, or anyone else who wimps out of service would actually be treated in a real Communist society. Would CO’s/draft dodgers/etc. be actually labeled as heroes in the USSR? No, I think Suka would be the much more likely label that they would have received in the USSR.
dutch: Yes, though I don’t speak for everyone in the organization. There are members with differing opinions on it.
Bob: Looking on the tab, I do see a star, though it doesn’t look red-on my browser it looks gold on a white background. I have no clue what that means either though or if it does mean anything.
Fred: Communism and socialism are failed endeavours. My favorite quote about them (well really about socialism but it applies for both)
“I am opposed to Socialism because of its inhumanity; because it saps the vitality of the human race which has no vitality to spare; because it lulls to indolence those who must struggle to survive; because the theories of good men who are enthralled by its delusions are made the excuse of the wicked who would rather plunder than work; because it stops enterprise, promotes laziness, exalts inefficiency, inspires hatred, checks production, assures waste and instills into the souls of the unfortunate and the weak hopes impossible of fruition whose inevitable blasting will add to the bitterness of their lot.” -Edward Adams
Woe, the blog is apparently eating my anti-socialist quotes.
I didn’t read all the replies, I just think it’s so funny they couldn’t raise $200. I have that in my back pocket most times. Hahahaha
The $1,000 per kid credit is definitely nice. I can see where they will at some point have to reduce it as we can’t keep up with all these credits in the face of rising deficits. The one that I think will hurt the most is if they let the payroll tax cut (the 2% reduced to Soc Sec) expire. I was never really in favor of it because I knew it would be one of those things that would be hard to just let expire, and now look what’s happened.
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