Abrams MBTs to Ukraine

| January 24, 2023 | 96 Comments


Too complicated?

Another opportunity to excel for Joe’s foreign policy team.

US may deliver ‘significant number’ of Abrams tanks to Ukraine despite Pentagon misgivings

The Pentagon had argued that US Abrams tanks are too complicated to operate and maintain

By Anders Hagstrom , Liz Friden | Fox News

The U.S. could announce the delivery of “a significant number” of M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine as early as this week, a U.S. official confirmed to Fox News on Tuesday.

The U.S. and Germany have bickered for weeks regarding which should provide heavy tanks to Ukraine amid spiking threats of renewed ground aggression from Russia. The Pentagon has argued that Abrams tanks require more complicated maintenance and would be more expensive to deliver to Ukraine than Germany’s Leopard tanks. German Leopards are already stationed in Ukraine’s neighboring Poland, for instance.

Nevertheless, Biden moved on the issue following a January 17 call with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz and is now leaning toward providing tanks, The Wall Street Journal reported Tuesday.

Fox News

Both Austin and Milley argued against the transfer, citing training the Ukes for operations and maintenance would take months. Also the tank is not the right weapon in-country at this time. Err, what? Not my swim lane; I was of the impression a land war in Europe was exactly what the M1 was designed for- or did someone move the Fulda Gap? What they aren’t saying is how many US boots will be on the ground as “advisors.”

Category: Foreign Policy, NATO, Ukraine

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HT3

No, no, no!
We should be finding way to END THIS WAR instead of escalating it.
We don’t need those Abrams being left on the battlefield for the Ruskies to send back to Moscow for analysis.
The Uni-Party is the Party of War, period.
Da Nag Dick & Lindsey Graham should head out to the front lines and see what’s like before wanting to widen the conflict to WW3.

KoB

Spot on! Too bad that these Kongress Klowne Kritters are not as concerned about defending the US as they are their MIC Buddies.

“…sure to become aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.”
― Robert E. Lee

Marse Robert called it, didn’t he?

Anonmous

Democrats and RINOs be like:

QMC

Tanks instead of diplomats.

Pretty much par for the course so far from the same folks that claimed to be the return of the “grown ups” at the end of the Trump Administration.

Charles

Let’s see:
1-
Turbine engine.
2-
Computerized fire control.
3-
Active hydraulic gun stabilization.

Just the sort of weapon system to send to an army that will have to maintain and use it in a hurry.

The good news is that the US has a surplus of Abrams, since the Marines dropped them.

David

In a war there is no such thing as a surplus of weapons.

MustangCPT

Yep. Three most useless thing in the world: tits on a bull, runway behind you, and weapons left behind.

Andy11M

beat me to it.

STSC(SW/SS)

In for a penny, in for a pound Austin and Milley. If your against the idea you can offer your resignation.

President Elect Toxic Deplorable Racist SAH Neande

I like ‘Ed’s idea better.

Messy but effective.

26Limabeans

A C17A can haul just one.Abrams.
Dunno about the C5 Galaxy.
Just getting them there is whole big deal in itself.

5JC

It can only carry 2 even though it’s max lift capacity is higher

FuzeVT

<a data-flickr-embed=”true” href=”https://www.flickr.com/photos/taobrien/51021446832/in/album-72157718819133416/” title=”C-5 tanks”><img src=”https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51021446832_c9d0fd4c9a_z.jpg” width=”640″ height=”426″ alt=”C-5 tanks”></a>//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js

FuzeVT

That didn’t work. . . Trying another way.

C-5 tanks.JPG
Berliner

Don’t know if what stockpile they have in Europe. A roll-on/roll-off ship from CONUS via the Black Sea would be a BIG “oops!” target for Putin.

Sapper3307

War stock, still in Holland?

Hack Stone

Hack was going to comment on “ChipNASA’s” make money thread, but as he was typing, it looks that comment was placed in the Jehovah’s Witness Protection Program. Rest assured that as usually, it was witty and insightful.

Sorry, meant to write “Shitty and inciteful”.

KoB

The Abrams isn’t listed here, but you get the idea. Don’t think we are even making any new ones, just upgrading the ones we have. In the FA we called tanks, “targets”.

comment image

Mason

Only two centuries to replenish our Stinger supplies? Seems reasonable.

MustangCPT

That’s 218 MONTHS. Still an awfully long time. Over 18 years…might as well be an eternity. Hell, what really scared me is the shortage of artillery shells.

Anonmous

At skinflint Democrat-funded peacetime production rates…

Mason

Me read good.

Anna Puma

We have supplied that much?

Next Army maneuvers will resemble the ones before Pearl Harbor where a gun made of lumber is called an artillery piece.

Anonmous

Funny you should say that. Chicoms think Pearl Harbor was a great masterstroke.

5JC

There is no plan to rebuild obsolete Stinger inventories. It would be like rebuilding WWI fighter planes to fight in Vietnam. The Stinger (first fielded almost 50 years ago) is being replaced by the M-SHORAD with production commencing in 2027. They actually saved the Army billions in maintaining the Stingers and upgrading them as they were due for an upgrade extension in 2023.

The Javelins are also being replaced with Block-E & F missiles that have 50% greater range and is currently under production.

None of the HIMARS systems have been destroyed, and still belong to the US. The US can just take them back if we need them.

All of this though doesn’t really take into account the idea that one of only three near peer potential military competitors on the planet has been reduced to the point where it is no longer a significant conventional threat at very low cost to us.

MustangCPT

Fine. But like I mentioned a month or so ago, look at our artillery ammo. We don’t have a ready means to replenish what has been expended in Ukraine. And a MANPAD that doesn’t start production until 2027 does us absolutely no good during the next 4 years. As far as the Javelins go, how long to get these Block E’s and F’s in the inventory? Seems like a good time for someone to test us seeing as we won’t be “whole” for at least 5 years. And if you think Uncle Joe and the Dems are going to “surge” production anytime soon, I want some of what you’re smoking. It’s clearly some primo shit.

Anna Puma

2027?

So how much of a MANPAD gap does that leave the US?

5JC

The US? None really. The US operates under the assumption that air breathing threats will be destroyed by air breathing assets. If the entire US Air Force and the US Navy can defeat the threat it isn’t a war we are going to win anyway.

Stingers were to take out leakers (mostly slow movers) that some how got through. Since their fielding in the last 50 years there have been zero hits by a US force on an air breathing threat with a Stinger, and damn few even launched. There has never been the need. The Afghans, the Uks and others have shot down hundreds of Russian air craft with them though.

Due to the limited range and relative low speed of the missile it’s tough for an AD unit to get a hit on a fast mover or anything high. But under the right conditions with the right tactics they can be absolutely catastrophic. But isn’t how the US employs them.

timactual

How do those Stryker-based SHORAD systems fit in light infantry, air assault, and airborne units? Heck, how many will be assigned to each mech/armor company?

The M-SHORAD system includes a 30 mm cannon, 7.62 mg, and both Hellfire and Stinger missiles.

“The AIM-9 Sidewinder (where “AIM” stands for “Air Intercept Missile”) is a short-range air-to-air missile which entered service with the US Navy in 1956Boeing won a contract in March 2010 to support Sidewinder operations through to 2055,.”
Wikipedia

5JC

Not sure, under the old system the BSFV used TOWs, Stingers and the Bradley main gun. These were attached to armor units with each battalion typically getting a platoon.

Lighter units and HQs typically got either an Avenger or Hummer mounted 2 man team that would dismount during Airborne/ AA operations.

But as noted above, they didn’t get much play, especially with light forces. Properly deployed light forces just don’t make a good target rich environment for air assets which works in their favor.

timactual

“Properly deployed light forces just don’t make a good target rich environment for air assets which works in their favor.”

The VC and NVA might argue with that.

Graybeard

And I thought the ammo shortage we just went through/are hopefully coming out of was bad…

We may just have to invest in a pallet or two of 5.56 NATO, a pallet of 45 ACP, two of 9mm Luger, two of 7.62x51mm, a pallet of 12ga. 00…

Totally unrelated: anyone have any thoughts/experience with using a buried ConEx for tornado shelters?

SFC D

Don’t bury too deep, the roofs only hold so much weight. Saw one collapsed in Iraq that was overloaded.

Graybeard

Good to know, SFC D.

Anonymous

Meanwhile, the Chicoms know how short we’re getting.
comment image

MustangCPT

I’ll kill those bastards happily and if I get overrun, I’ll be content knowing I sent dozens to their graves. Fuck the Chicoms.

Wireman611

China chuckles

11B-Mailclerk

China is as fucked up as Russia, just a different mix of FUBAR, and a bigger pile of it.

Wanna see them totally lose their shit? Start talking like we are going to sell modern weapons to Vietnam.

Or, just destabilize the DPRK. 20 million starving Norks walking north would wreck the CCP. So would an East Germany style resolution event. Either way they can’t deal.

UpNorth

Hmm, Poland says it’s sending the Leopard 2 to Ukraine, sending them Abrams would just foul up their supply chain.
That would likely delay deployment of both tanks and increase training time.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/germany-not-stop-poland-delivering-leopard-2-tanks-ukraine-relenting-us-pressure

5JC

I think tanks are not such a great idea. Given the numbers of great ways that we have learned to kill tanks there is no reason to think that they are not dead meat on the battlefield. I say round up and send whatever old Soviet era machines are left lying around and find their final resting place there.

Mason

Giving weapons to an erstwhile ally to fight off a Russian invasion. I’ve seen this episode before.

RGR 4-78

How long before they sell a couple of them to the ChiComs for some walking around money?

Berliner

Morocco yesterday donated 20 of their 300 T-72b tanks they had bought from Belarus.

5JC

I love it. Of course they sold them to Morocco before they became a Putin puppet government.

President Elect Toxic Deplorable Racist SAH Neande

Anyone remember ITAR? Like, sending our MBTs to a non-aligned foreign power type no-no? Like, thrown under the jail type no-no?
I guess that applies only to us little people.

USMC Steve

Great idea. We have those excess Abrams tanks that our commandant decided we didn’t need in the Marine Corps, they can have those.

Arby

Oh boy – USMC castoffs – that’s not very inspiring. 😉

Arby

I mean how good can they be if even the Marines didn’t want them?

MustangCPT

That they stole from the Army…

Hack Stone

It will take a few weeks for the DoD contractors to translate “Wagner Loves Cock” graffiti in the vehicles to Ukrainian.

MustangCPT

According to Google translate (translating one word at a time):
Вагнер лос цоцк

Probably pronounced something like:
Vagner los tsotsk

Don’t know if that’s the correct syntax or if it’s grammatically correct but considering that one of their enemies is the Wagner Group, this would actually work on multiple levels. 🤣

Berliner

Probably crayon snacks in every corner and crevice. 😜 

Hack Stone
Hack Stone

The shit is about….

Stupid knockoff iPhone from a proud but humble woman owned business that sells software to the federal government formerly located in Bethesda Maryland.

ninja

From the article…

“Gerasimov has focused on shaving and haircuts while limiting cellphone use”.

Yep.

😉😎🤭

13173.jpeg
ninja

Yep.

Gotta crack down on shaving and haircuts…

😉😎🤭

13183.jpeg
KoB

ninja, I know it’s been a buncha years for me, but I don’t remember having those shades of camo like that Trooper. ‘Specially that peachy/rose. And try as I could, NEVER had a shave that close. I will say this tho; Troopers that look like that one are the most dangerous ones in the world. Talk about a danger zone…

Mason

He should write a regulation prohibiting dying in Ukraine. Now that will do the trick.

Berliner

I’m sure there is an exception for the prisoners “drafted” for the Wagner mercenaries. From the interwebs:

“Russian artillery doesn’t support Wagner mercenaries near Bakhmut. They are given away for slaughter He added ex convicts in Wagner are thrown forward to die.”

timactual

“Gerasimov has cracked down on behaviors, including the use of mobile phones, shaving, “non-standard haircuts,” non-regulation uniforms and travel in civilian vehicles.”

That’s bad? First I read complaints/comments about untrained and undisciplined conscripts, now I read complaints/comments about disciplined, soldierly troops.

I would note that George Patton had the reputation of being a stickler for having his troops present a soldierly appearance, including the wearing of neckties. And definitely shaving. Bill Mauldin even made a cartoon or two about it.

MustangCPT

Exactly. Sloppiness breeds inefficiency.

11B-Mailclerk

Rangers = weaponized OCD

MustangCPT

I was quoting the famed small-unit tactician, Major Malcolm Powers, USMC, Annapolis, Class of ‘72. 🤣

SFC D

The supply officer?

MustangCPT

Yep…
🤣

Hack Stone

Meanwhile, there seems to be a few openings within the Ukrainian government. Maybe Hunter Biden could fill a billet.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/ukraine-zelenskyy-purges-top-level-officials-anticorruption-purge-more-come-he-warns

Devtun

Hey Hack, ya beat me to it.😁

Devtun

FOX News reported several Ukranian officials resigned their positions due to corruption allegations. Haha, guys start being spotted w/ high end cars like Porches & Rolex watches might arouse a wee bit of suspicion. Corruption in Ukraine? C’mon, next thing you’re gonna tell me is that bears crap in the woods or that PINO is a serial liar, plagiarist, and influence peddler.

Hack Stone

Sounds like a lot of malarkey. I’m not joking.

jeff LPH 3 63-66

Tanks for the nice post Ed.

ninja

This post is for our very own beloved A1WEd and Mick:

“Conservative Twitter celebrates ‘Top Gun: Maverick’s’ Best Picture nomination: ‘Woke is unsustainable'”

“Tom Cruise’s blockbuster earned six Oscar nominations overall”

https://www.foxnews.com/media/conservative-twitter-celebrates-top-gun-maverick-best-picture-nomination-woke-unsustainable

13189.jpeg
MustangCPT

Shots fired…

KoB

INCOMING…Potential Counter Battery Fires from either/or Floating/Aerial Artillery Platforms! Get small! I expect there will be payback from flying into that danger zone Put those comments on ice, man or you’ll find your goose cooked.

The DA Form 6…a merciless task mistress. Is good to see that (a) People are paying attention as to whose day it is to be “that guy” and (b) Field Grade Ossifers recognize that they cannot assign details to Troopers that they are not willing to perform themselves.

ninja

🤭👌😇🫡

gabn

MustangCPT

Who
Who
Who
Who

MustangCPT

Not field grade yet. Maybe end up there, but I’m good if I punch out as a Captain. It’s been a good ride. To quote Jerry Garcia…What a Long, Strange Trip It’s Been!

KoB

ninja (and her hubby) are/were FG…and you should be. Do I need to make some phone calls, Pappy?

rgr769

A better solution would be for the Germans to give them their Leopards. The Poles are already giving the Ukes a limited number of Leopards. They run on regular diesel fuel and are likely easier to maintain.

11B-Mailclerk

Sell Poland the Abrams, so they can shift their Soviet armor to Ukraine.

And Poles driving M-1s ought to give the Russians good reason to stay far away. Far, far away

5JC

Yep.

MustangCPT

Hey Stasch…hold my vodka! 🇵🇱

MustangCPT

The Abrams turbine can run on multiple fuel types including diesel. We currently run them on JP8 since everything else from our trucks to our helicopters run on it. JP8 is similar enough to diesel that our Humvees and trucks have no issues switching back and forth between fuel types. Hell, you can run a Caterpillar diesel generator on Jet A with the only modification being a larger radiator since the engine runs hotter on kerosene based fuel (makes more horsepower too).

Anna Puma

So how soon before the BCT in Poland becomes the First American Volunteer Tank Brigade of the Ukrainian Army?

This is turning into how everyone from the Germans, Soviets, and Americans supporting the Nationalist Chinese against the Japanese.

Last edited 11 days ago by Anna Puma
Prior Service

Tanker here. This is an Obama (One Big *** Mistake, America). Just like the original one.

Anna Puma

“An Obama”

Euphemism for a steaming turd pile?

Sapper3307

63H contract work, SOON!

78nh2g.jpg
Graybeard

Man, there must be juicy stuff in those documents in FJB’s houses.
And the Ukrainians must really have some goods on FJB and his crackhead male spawn.

Wireman611

And how many other of our fearless leaders?

timactual

Would I be correct in assuming that Ukraine, like most of Europe, uses the metric system? And the M1 Abrams is built using the English (inch, foot, etc. ) system? So, before the first Abrams gets to Ukraine they will need completely new sets of tools (except maybe hammers and screwdrivers).

And, waiting at the airport or seaport, M1070 army tank transporter units & trailers, accompanied by M88 recovery vehicles (50+ tons for the M88A1, the oldest and lightest variant), which will need its own transporter and maintenance vehicles/personnel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Equipment_Transport_System

Then there are the maintenance, repair, and calibration personnel and equipment for the electronics.

If the decision is made tonight to send M1 tanks to Ukraine it will be months before they can be used in combat.

timactual

“If the decision is made tonight to send M1 tanks to Ukraine it will be months before they can be used in combat.”

Well, that didn’t take long. Should be interesting to see how full of shit I am.

God is laughing at me.

Anonymous

We’re asking Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, etc. to donate their Soviet equipment to Ukraine, too:
https://twitter.com/CitizenFreePres/status/1617724212743122945

Hate_me

While the Abrams was first introduced for the Fulda Gap, it is now outdated in several respects.

I question whether Austin/Milley are genuinely concerned about the maintenance demands of the vehicle (legitimate concern) or about exhibiting how outdated our best armor is in today’s world (only legitimate if they have plans to address it).

Regardless, the Leopard II is, objectively, a better vehicle. The Challenger 2 has less protection than the Abrams but much greater range, the difference is on the technician. All have hunter-killer capability (hell, so does the T-72, though archaic).

I get why Germany is so insistent on us committing the M1 (will we actually send SEPs?), and I question Milley/Austin’s motives (their, and Germany’s, should be in the best interest of their respective nations), but the Leopard II is the more ideal choice for Ukraine. Three different platforms is… obfuscating.

Hate_me

tactician* not technician.

Autocorrect is digital tyranny.