Distress or disrespect
In the space of about ten minutes, I got this article from three people last night. It’s about a business owner in Wisconsin who decided to protest his local government’s refusal to issue him a liquor license for his restaurant by flying his US flag upside down on the 4th of July along a parade route, apparently.
The police reportedly stormed his private property and took the flag down (Daily News);
Hours before a Fourth of July parade, four police officers went to Congine’s property and removed the flag under the advice of Marinette County District Attorney Allen Brey.
Neighbor Steven Klein watched in disbelief.
“I said, ’What are you doing?’ Klein said. “They said, ’It is none of your business.”’
The next day, police returned the flag. Brey declined comment Friday.
I don’t blame the police, by the way, they were just doing what they were told to do. But it turns out that the guy who turned the flag upside down, is an Iraq War veteran.
Congine, a Marine veteran who served in Iraq in 2004, said he intends to keep flying the flag upside down.
“It is pretty bad when I go and fight a tyrannical government somewhere else,” Congine said, “and then I come home to find it right here at my front door.”
I can’t testify to his service in Iraq, but he was (is) a Marine;
But this is probably why he can’t get a liquor license;
He was arrested for a theft of less more than $10k. The only thing I altered in that record was his home address.
Anyway, last year I wrote a post about how no one was that upset when people were flying flags upside down to protest the war until after election day (the pictures in that post were all taken on Federal property and only one was removed by Capitol Police after I took thepicture). I don’t approve of folks doing that, but I approve less of using the police to squelch free speech like they were used in the case of Vito Congine. Especially when they trespassed on his private property without Congine’s permission.
The ACLU is contemplating a lawsuit against the village of Crivitz, WI and good for them- if they plan on seeing it through. Like I said, I don’t approve of people flying flags upside down, but they certainly have the right to do so without government intervention.
So, OK, flame me now.
H/T to Olga, Sporkmaster and The Wolf for the story.
Category: Legal, Protests/Rallies
Flame? FLAME? Letting people fly flag upside down, anytime/place?
That’s MOAB-flameworthy. DISTRESS is the ONLY time that should be used. How about shouting ‘FIRE’ in a theater, just to make a point that the movie sucks and everyone should leave? (or that it has objectionable content). SAME thing. Flying flag upside down has a POINT-
Just like flying the flag is a point- and not a ‘statement’.
While free speech is a wonderful thing, and we use it hourly around these parts,there are certain things that are too objectionable to the populace, or at least certain parts of us ‘populace’ to do.
How about online viewing of abortions? Its legal. Its doable. But damn if that wouldn’t upset a few folks. But it’d sure make a statement.
Or those people that fly other country’s flags ON TOP of Old Glory. Yeah, that works.
Wolf
Free speech counts whether we agree with the message or not. In this case, I don’t either, but I REALLY have an issue with a bunch of overzealous cops WAY overstepping their bounds which overrides my displeasure at someone flying a flag incorrectly.
Perhaps you’ve also heard of this little thing called the Fourth Amendment, Wolf? Apparently the cops in Wisconsin aren’t exactly familiar with it.
Mr. Wolf:
Last fall an anti-abortion group displayed a collection of pictures or late term abortions and handed out literature on the central common of my university. I assume they have a website. People were clearly upset and there was a counter protest. However, the exhibit stayed on campus for the agreed upon three days. I did not like it, I did not like the attitude of the organziers who brought it, not did I agree with their message. I would defend to my death their right to display it.
The flag regs state that the flag can be displayed upside down to show diar distress to life or property. Like it or not one can make the argument that this fits. The rest of us could, if we chose, use our free speech to say how much we disprove of this tactic.
What the cops did has really yet to be defined in cases like this- whereas, someone flying the flay in an ‘international distress signal’, can they come in and do something? What if GreenPeace flew their US flag upside down in protest on ships? Think that would be acceptable?
I think this needs a court case to settle it. Burning is one thing; flying upside down in a highly public area is another.
Wolf
Sorry, Wolf–wrong again. RIF. And the cops knowing violated the Fourth Amendment rights (and possibly 14th–but ask our budding lawyer TSO) by going onto private property without a warrant or probable cause.
The police had no business removing his flag, period. If they want to get zealous all of a sudden about how our flag is treated they could easily find many offenders who leave tattered and faded flags outdoors all year long. Not to mention the idiots who burn them.
Here is my view on it.
I think that his actions are overkill. I mean to me turning the flag upside down is on the level as dialing 911. The police would do go after those that would call 911 for not having any chicken nuggets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZDIsCMLbPE
So why would you not expect to be told to fix it for something so small? I would imagine that you would do that if your boat is at sea and have no radio. Not because you cannot get a license.
Olga, Sparky, agreed to both of your points. If the D.A. was that upset, HE should have done this the correct, from his standpoint, way and issued a search warrant, then sent the LEO’s, not just tell them to go get the flag. And I doubt that it was, technically, a legal order.
Also, I’m confused by the court records. It states in one section the “filing date” is October 20, 2008, but the “offense date” is January 1, 1999? They waited 8+ years to file? Was that because he was gone for that time in the USMC, or he was so clever they couldn’t find him in all that time?
Anyway, I can see why the denial was made, depending on the outcome of the case. In Michigan, you have to divulge any arrests to the Liquor Control Commission, and depending on the offense, you can be denied. If alcohol is involved, or the total record of the individual applying, those are things that are considered. It would be interesting to know the story behind the charges.
But, in all, I would have politely, but firmly, declined to obey the order to remove his flag.
I haven’t commented on this yet, UpNorth :o)
First, a nit-picking: he was charged with a theft of MORE than $10K (the open end is away from the number) that’s why it is Felony.
Second, for me, flying the flag upside down equals to the REAL distress, like danger to one’s life, not because he could not get a liquor license.
Third, I do not like the cops going onto his property and removing the flag.
Fourth, he should have known that with a felony conviction he had a snowball in hell chance to get a liquor license.
Fifth, if the $200K invested in the “Italian supper club” were not his, wink-wink, then his life might indeed be in danger and then his flying upside down flag is justified…(do not flame me for the last one, I came from Bensonhurst in Bklyn, so I know what I am talking about)
This is cool that so many people are seeing more in this story than some guy who has flag upside down. The census seems to be that a flag is at most a symbol, but more likely a piece of colored cloth that he owns. I really do not know what to make the anti-flag burning laws in this country.
For all those supporting the police in this comment thread, please note that it was not illegal in that community to fly a flag upside down (at least according to the article). The justification for the seizure of the flag was that it upset people and illegally caused a disruption (talk about vague and overbroad!). How can it possibly be the conservative position to censor expression merely because it is unpleasant?
I haven’t decided my opinion on this one entirely yet. But I would suggest that this would be the same as someone repeatedly dialing 911 and having the cops come out. If the flag upside down is a sign of distress, would not the police HAVE to respond? If police are walking by a house and woman is calling “rape” out the window, would they not have to respond?
Like I said not certain on my feelings yet, but if the flag upside down does convey distress, like a 911 call, wouldn’t the police be obligated to respond?
“…flying the flag upside down equals to the REAL distress, like danger to one’s life, not because he could not get a liquor license.”
I agree. He should be free to protest, but flying the flag upside down didn’t send the right message.
“And the cops knowing violated the Fourth Amendment rights… by going onto private property without a warrant or probable cause.”
The “probable cause” was the signal of someone in distress one makes by flying the flag upside down. If the cops were all pumped up with adrenaline thinking they were entering a life or death situation only to find a disgruntled shop keeper…yeah. They may have overreacted at that point!
TSO,
You reasoning would work if the cops merely, say, entered the building to investigate, but what does that have to do with confiscating the flag? If a person hangs a sign on her door saying “Rape”, and the cops go in without a warrant and verify that no rape is taking place (which could be constitutional), what would give the cops the authority to then seize the sign? I’m sure there are statutes barring making false reports to the police or interfering with police emergency operations (and I assume that would cover the 911 call), but it’s hard to say that merely hanging an ambiguous symbol on private property viewable by the public is the same thing.
So you think that it is an ambiguous symbol right? Then explain to me what message is conveyed if it is ambiguous. Would it not then be an “inarticulate grunt” as one of the Justices phrased in Texas v. Johnson?
TSO,
get off the web, you have like 1 week left before the Bar!
OLga, I have 6 months. Have to take in February. More on that later….. But it is a good thing, trust me.
Sorry Olga, my bad. Upon further reflection, I would have told the prosecutor to go seize the flag himself, if it bothered him that much. It’s private property, unless it’s flying from a public flag pole.
Also, Mr. Congine was an ass for flying the flag in this manner, considering his service, and what he claimed was his justification for doing so. And I don’t see how Briggs can decide a concensus has been reached, when the opinions on this are all over the map.
The flag seemed to be making people “upset,” not panicked, so that tells me they thought of it like hanging a crucifix upside down (disrespect) not a symbol of distress (shouting “FIRE” in the crowded room). Now, had the flag caused a panic because people understood the symbol and freaked out, the police might have a leg to stand on. But really…”causing a disturbance”? The way they’re constructing their legal argument, they’d have the right to take away a sign of a parade bystander that said either “BUSH SUCKS” or “OBAMA SUCKS.” It’s a blatant constitutional violation.
However, judging by the reaction it got, protest fail.
1. I am pissed that a Marine, present or former, would do something so juvenile and stupid.
2. Upside down flag equals distress, period. If he did that, he should have expected the cops to come looking.
3. Cops taking down the flag and taking it with them equals THEFT. It is not contraband, so they had no legal right whatsoever to take it. If they were told to do so, that would quite probably constitute entering into a criminal conspiracy, creating a felony in most states. And committing crimes under color of law is not protected in most states that I know of either.
4. Given that an upside down flag has a given understanding or interpretation, he might have a hard time going the first amendment route, but again, I would expect more adult behavior on the part of a fellow Marine in the first place, particularly a communicator.