Marines’ experimental unisex blues
Not my service, so it’s not my discussion. But, the MarineTimes says;
Everyone recognizes the distinctive dress blues uniform worn by male Marines: the high mandarin collar, the broad belt, the round white cover. Well, female Marines may get to wear that uniform too if all goes well with a wear test taking place now down at Marine Barracks Washington.
All female Marines stationed at 8th and I have been wearing the white dress cover this parade season, and a select number have also donned tailored versions of the men’s dress blues jacket instead of the traditional women’s lapel blazer with white-collared shirt and necktab underneath. At the end of the summer parade season, their feedback will be transmitted to Gen. James Amos, commandant of the Marine Corps, to inform future uniform decisions or changes.
I will add, however, that the last I knew, Army females at Fort Meyers were wearing male dress blues to ceremonies.
Category: Marine Corps
Good God
I hope this wasn’t dreampt up at the E-9 Symposium. If it was, all the SgtMaj’s and MGySgts should be ashamed of themselves – and ask to retire.
It could be worse…..
(What was the USAF board *thinking*?!?!?!?)
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c362/tmmkkt22/AirForceUniformESB1.jpg
Welcome to equal opportunity
WTF. I’m so glad I got out when I did.
Are we next going to have unisex showers, like in “Starship Troopers”?
Crazy, I was just talking with an Army E-7 on my flight the other day on about how unisex uniforms, for all services, are inevitable. Now that the military has gay pride fever, male and female military couples are going to be normal and we’re on our way to females in combat arms with new, lower and gender neutral fitness tests how can it not?
The next wall is transgender service members so you’ll have pre and post op men and women wanting to dress as the opposite gender. The way to avoid men in skirts is to make all the uniforms the same. Welcome to the new military.
The Marines, The Few, The Proud, the Unisex. Equal opportunity for all! I was not a marine but the male uniform just doesn’t look right on a gal. Sorry, gals I know that may hurt your feelings but as ChipNASA said about the USAF, what the hell are they thinking. First it’s with the common camo uniforms now dress digs. Like I said I was not a Marine and so my opinion is just mine and I don’t know how my Marine friends would take this issue, I ask some of them. But I know already it will go over like a fart in church.
Female members of TOG wear male ceremonial uniforms. When I left in ’08, though, the bulk of ceremonies were still conducted by the Infantry companies, and funerals in ANC were rotated among them (off-post funerals, conducted in greens way back when, were a different matter). The only time I recall seeing females in ceremonial dress was during Twilight Tattoo, when we’d use 289th MP Company to provide State & Territorial Flag bearers.
For uniformity in ceremonies, I can agree with standardizing the male uniform. For general use, though, they should keep the gender-specific uniforms.
I can see it now. 20 years from now, all the branches of service will be rolled into one big branch, and the rich history and traditions of the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps will be shelved and eventually forgotten.
What’s the objection, here? I am totally for this. Nothing more silly than soldiers and marines in skirts. Nothing I hate more than seeing a soldier in a cardigan and a skirt with heels as her Class B. The male uniform is much more Martial. And the female DIs look silly in their crocodile Dundee hats, too. Time to get rid of those, too.
ChipNASA, that’s still not as bad as the Navy going to blue camo BDUs.
And we need to start talking hair length, too. Either their is a need for a buzz cut or there is not.
Thank for the update. I was wondering what I saw them wearing on a recent trip to DC. I particularly liked the little pink bow centered on the ribbon on the back of the jacket. Nice touch given the direction the administration is taking the military in.
A few years ago I saw a video of an Irish Defence Forces OCS graduation ceremony.
All of the cadets/LTs were in the exact same uniform. And quite frankly their ladies in a “standard” dress uniform looked a lot better than US female officers in the “female” uniform. Same cap, jacket, pants, sam browne belt, sword. I wondered why we had never tried that. I dunno if they have female uniforms (skirts and shit), but in that video everybody wore the same thing.
All of the female uniforms in the US military look stupid. They just do. So this could be a good change.
#11,
A PFC in my brigade appeared before the SOM board last year in her skirt and pumps; when the CSM asked her why she was wearing that uniform ,she replied that it “made her look good”. She was kicked out of that board.
Obviously, she learned something from that. She became the division Soldier of the Year a few months ago.
Also, the covers female Naval officers wear are the dumbest hats ever.
Dammit, did they forget to fumigate for Good Idea Fairies this year?
It is just coming in waves, first repeal of DADT, then women in combat arms, then repeal of DOMA, now unisex uniforms. It is like this administration and the senior leadership of the Marine Corps cannot wait to come up with the next new thing. “If you thought that was crazy, wait til you see what we have coming next”. My father was a career Marine. I served for 24 years. I loved being a Marine and growing up around and serving with like minded people. One of the things that I thought made the Corps unique was its love of tradition. And the pride that we took in our uniforms. Almost every piece of the dress blue uniform has some symbolism that relates to the history of our Corps. From the Quatrafoil on the officers cover to the blood stripe on officer and NCO trousers. The Eagle Globe and Anchor Emblem and what that means to us. And all of that is shitcanned in the name of political correctness. General Amos, our current Commandant is taking our pride in our service and destroying it. But what you don’t hear our leadership talking about is how we are going to train for the future in this current era of shrinking budgets. Or how we are going to plan for re-taking our place as the worlds most capable amphibious force. A skill set that we have allowed to atrophy as we fought two land locked wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Instead, we seem to be focused on making sure that women are integrated into the Infantry Officers course and able to fit into a man’s uniform (in more ways than one it seems). I am very happy that I retired when I did. It was time to go. I will always love the Marine Corps. It is likely though, that the Marine Corps that I love will be the one I served in. Not the one that I see now that is racing to take pride and tradition and throw it away to score points with a politically correct and inept… Read more »
I always wanted to know whether females in the Marine Corps wear briefs or boxers. It’s probably best that I don’t know.
@13 Good point. If we are going to have common uniforms why not common haircuts. Women, no hair over the ears, high and tight and no moustaches beyond the outer lips, for those gals who are a bit hirsute, shall we say. Or…the other way, males with full beards and hair to their shoulders. It is all just too funny to ponder.
@19 – There was some movement recently for the Corps to start looking in to its amphibious doctrine again, and start implementing training in such a manner in which the Corps was founded in light of the irregular warfare we’ve been at over the last 10+ years, but that’s being shelved.
Instead of re-leaning and improving methods of how to win the country’s battles, it appears the senior leadership is appealing more to the political correctness that has run rampant over the last 6 years. As a result, the Corps won’t be able to fight battles because of it, but at least its members will all look the same when they’re being killed by the bushel in future conflicts.
///Incoming sexist comments
As a male Army Officer, and a member of the Army Nurse Corps, I’m all for standardizing uniforms. Cost, uniformity, morale, blah, blah blah.
I would like to make an exemption, however. The US Navy Nurse Corps female Service Khaki needs to stay. Professional AND easy on the eyes. Look; there’s enough that makes service in any branch rough as it is…Can’t we keep the Navy nurses looking delightfully female?
Then put in place one grooming standard. Why are females allowed to wear earrings and have long hair? Oh yeah I forgot anyone who considers themselves members of a victim class, will scream for equality when it benefits them but don’t give a damn when it does not. Bet you won’t see females be required to shave their heads. With all this nonsense you just cannot justify a different standard for anything. So inevitably leadership will cave. One standard will fall to meet the lower one in place (RE: the laughable gender neutral PT) and we will see male Marines with hair looking like the boston ahole’s on the cover of rolling stone. Gotta love “progress”
@19, they’re not shitcanning the “uniform” or losing any of the traditions. In fact, it isn’t right for the headline to say they’re “unisex” uniforms.
Because all that is happening is that women are wearing the men’s uniform with some slight tailoring changes to the cut. Basically they’d shitcan the ladies uniforms and go to one style: the men’s style. Which looks far better.
@24 “…members of a victim class…”
Hammer, meet nail.
Hey Spade, if they are putting females in a male uniform, they are indeed shitcanning tradition. And there is no need for it.
The Marine Corps bases much of its pride of service and mystique around it’s traditions. To change that is to change the culture of the institution. That is not O.K. with me. Because for better or worse, what we have been doing has been working pretty well for a couple hundred years.
@3: That’s too funny – the AF trying to ape the Marines. IIRC they did the same thing when they looked at adopting the Marines 8 point cap for their new sexy digital tiger stripe uniform. It’s as if the AF is trying way to hard to shed their “civilians in uniform” reputation by copying the hard core Marines.
As far as the uniforms go, though, I have to say “meh.” The reality is that women’s fashions change a lot more frequently than mens, which means that while our military male dress uniforms are more or less consistent with modern day business dress, our women are still wearing fashions from the 1950’s (or maybe even older, given the ‘pillbox hat’ that many of the women’s uniforms feature.) It probably makes sense to have a single uniform for males and females anyway. And I don’t know about the USMC Women’s uniform, but on the Army women’s uniforms, lining up ribbons was always a chore because unlike the male uniforms there were no pocket flaps to use as a horizontal reference point.
It always makes me laugh when these guys get so worked up about boosting search engine ranking. That letter claims one of the offenses was: ” 6) Boosting the Engine Rankings of the Google Search page/rank algorithm “. It’s as if they think Google a gov’t entity. Getting upset with boosting Google search hits would be like getting mad that someone bought multiple lottery tickets to increase their chances of winning the jackpot. Take it up with Google if you don’t like the way its search functions clowns.
don’t know if it matters, but I’m a former Marine and I have no problem with this. Female specific uniforms make the wearers stand out, emphasizing their differences. And I always thought the necktab thing looked stupid. On a positive note, Marines attending NCO school will no longer need to learn asinine uniform regulations for female uniforms. “What is the correct length for the Service Alpha skirt?” “fuck if I know. I’m a grunt and never see wookies.” And female Marines in the Drum and Bugle corps already wear the same uniforms as males….
@29 wrong thread. My appologies. Maybe I should complain complain that microsoft tabs caused me to miss-post.
@30 I was a grunt for 21 of my 24 years, tanker the first 3. It offends me to fuck with tradition. I know things change. I am not a dinosaur. But you need to be careful with the pace of change and what you change or you suddenly may not recognize what it is you were changing. I do not like many of the changes that are taking place in the military and in the Marine Corps specifically. There seems to be no rhyme or reason. Just change for changes sake. That is wrong and does not do our service justice.
Face it gentlemen…
The America we faithfully served is over and with it, our beloved Corps dies.
Semper Fi,
M/3/1 1969
This isn’t like going from the crew neck to v-neck and back to crew neck again.
Why the change? Doesn’t our Marine Corps have more pressing issues to concern themselves with other than social agenda?
Here’s a suggestion….. how the fuck are you going to go from 194,000 to 182,000 by 2017? Well at least those REMFs sitting on the uniform board for this proposed change will be safe.
6,000 WTF’s do not help me understand the logic behind this.
Glad that I’m retired…. S/F
@34 Amen brother…..
If everyone is supposed to be the same they should dress the same….I suspect there will be far worse things happening over the next 5-10 years than using the same dress uniform.
The problem is…when you make women dress like men…it looks ridiculous and unprofessional…period.
Men should look like men and women like women.
Look at that picture Chip posted at #3
That getup looks silly altogether..but looks really, really silly on a woman
Just my 2 cents
The photo linked in #3 is a bad looking uniform on both of them. Especially the woman. When I was in, enlisted collar insignia had a circle around the US, officers no. I guess that has changed unless that is just part of this new getup. I think the waist belt and three pointed pockets look like a doorman instead of a military uniform.
@38
No..the USAF (to their credit) shit canned that monstrosity before it was fielded
I spent 02-08 in a joint Army-USAF unit. In that time it seems like the USAF changed dress uniforms (and PT test) about 5 times.
I remember when that uniform was proposed…what the Air Force was going for was this:
What they got was that thing in #3
Actually I think a quality unisex uniform with proper tailoring is a good thing. If for no other reason thanit literally improves uniformity (it would be a bad pun if I meant it as one) in the ranks. That doesn’tman I have any respect for B.S. morale reasons that they dreamed Uoure time justify and exp lain it. I also question whether or not it’s worth it during all these budget cuts to develop a new uniform line.
Got very, VERY mixed emotions about this one. First, I would NOT like to dictate to the Corps what it should do, so please do not translate any of these words to mean that I do.
But, having come up in the USAF at a time when there were no other options for females other than skirts and that I had to buy my own combat boots and fatigues when they were needed to do my job after they were authorized for wear before they were issued to females, I can give a “been there, done that” perspective to all this.
Uniforms are supposed to be uniform. Having part of the force in one uniform and the rest in another has never made any sense to me. Pieces of fabric can be constructed for a multitude of body sizes and shapes. I just do not see a problem with having a single uniform for every one in a particular branch of service.
For things like Mess Dress uniforms, which are roughly equivalent to formal civilian attire, I have no issue with skirts for the females. Or for office wear, some hospital uniforms, or wherever else appropriate. Formations and such should be uniform.
Whatever. There really are bigger fish to fry here.
What little I know of women’s uniforms (wife’s) and fashions (wife and three daughters) tells me the uniforms will LOOK the same, but the female ones will cost three times more and cost ‘way more to tailor and clean.If they make them truly unisex, all costs will rise to the female levels.
It’s a Marine thing, this navy butting out.
On a side note… my first tour began in ’72. The USN has just started a great “working uniform” experiment that made all junior enlisted look like conscripts in the Chinese Peoples Army, only in dark blue. Thankfully, it failed. Not thankfully, I had to pony up my own cash sometime after to purchase the traditional bell bottom dungaree pants and chambray working shirts.
The persistence in polyester continued sadly though, despite the fact that cotton was selected by the “old” USN to begin with. The Navy working uniform was designed to be survival gear; the white hat, bell bottomed pants, and chambray shirt were all flotation devices and didn’t melt to your skin in a shipboard fire.
What can I say? The trend of modern military genius thinking continues in the same schoolbook mentality of the ’60’s that gave us the planes and ships without guns, all protected by aluminum “armor”.
Marines and Sailors really do need to etch this in their brains, however. The Naval Regulations adopted in 1972 omitted this preamble, “These regulations contained herein are to be interpreted to the spirit, not the rule.” Why?
re #19
“I will always love the Marine Corps. It is likely though, that the Marine Corps that I love will be the one I served in.”
I’m hearing more and more of this sentiment all the time and it’s a sharp, scary departure from the usual New/Old Corps grousing. The Marine Corps has always been the most resistant to contemporary political pressures but it seems like the momentum has really shifted and the new leadership is giving a lot of ground. I don’t know if this is because General grade officers just don’t have the juice on the Hill they used to, because of the new Joint Operations ladder they have to climb to add stars or something else but my Magic 8 Ball is telling me the outlook isn’t good.
I’m convinced that there is no one nowadays in any leadership capacity in any part of the DOD who has any taste or sense of style.
It is perfect for the transgengered Marine. You know what I mean: Terry on Monday … Theresa on Tuesday!
Just saying!
This is probably an attempt to save money, although DoD seems to change its mind with the weather report about uniform wear.
I do know that women are wearing the bib jumper and pants at Great Lakes and there is a khaki shirt/dark pants/skirt (maybe navy blue, can’t tell) issued to all lower enlisted including recruits at Great Lakes, and a garrison cap with an anchor tangled in line as the pin for it, but I’ve only seen the Navy band members wearing that one.
About 1975 the Coast Guard went to the ‘Bender’ blues. Made us look like Civil Air Patrol. We used an AF shirt with collar devices. One uniform for all ranks and rates. Officers hated it, enlisted hated it, and Chiefs really hated it. No more khaki’s. The one thing that made it possible to identify a CPO at 100 meters was gone. One of our W-4’s was catching a plane when a woman handed her suitcase to him and told him that she was going to the United desk. She thought he was a Sky Cap.
The female version was designed by Edith Head, but it made all of the females look fat. Their neck adornment had the Coast Guard slash in orange across it. Ghastly to say the least. Because we were given an initial issue we lost our uniform allowance for two or three years. This fiasco was the bright idea of the commandant at the time, one Adm. Bender. He said the only reason he did it was to put his stamp on the service. His legacy so to speak. Over 200 years of tradition down the tubes. Now that is a legacy.
fuck it bring back the wooly pully, rank on the utility cover and V-neck white t-shirts………….
yeah I was around for that stupidity. good times.
but if the Corps is going to go to unisex uniforms, why not go full retard and make everything unisex: grooming standards, PT standards, etc
@49 that’s the next step. I mean hell you know there is a problem when you can’t punish joe/boot with pushups when they screw up; in a time when too many service members are fat. How long will it take there is no discernible difference between the military and any other gov’t type job? We’ll have a whole force of Bradley Manning’s running around. I guess that is the ultimate goal of these turds though. “Kick in that door private”…“well you know sergeant I don’t like the way you say private. I’m gonna have to talk with HR about this”