Are Social Veteran Organizations Dying?
Jonn has graciously allowed me to place my soapbox here in front of you a moment…
To clarify, a social veteran organization is not like the ‘service’ organizations (Think VFW/DAV) which do a lot of work on behalf of the military veteran members. The organization or maybe better put the ‘portion’ of such organizations that I refer are the social aspect of sharing a common bond in service, unit etc and maintaining through real interaction.
82nd Airborne Division Association
Here’s the situation that I find myself in with my own chosen organization which is made up of both active duty and veteran service members whom either served with the 82nd or are airborne qualified or glidermen. The organization like many of its kind was formed from the WWII veterans that streamed back into the US borders and had only each other to talk to about the things they’d seen and done.
Flash forward almost 70 years and while the organization has continued the conflicts have had less troops involved and a volunteer force has changed the face of the military. The core of this group, as with many others, are seeing steep declines as WWII/Korea and even Vietnam era veterans either pass on or are no longer able to maintain a presence.
The organization has begun to bear the weight of past decisions and indecision to adapt to changing times. I am not sure if this is due to ignorance or just an inability to impact change because they simply do not know how to be anything different than what they’ve been for 6 decades. The hard truth is that it would appear things will get rougher in light of the economy of the past few years on an already burdened system.
There is hope that the next generation of combat veterans will be the shot in the arm that these organizations need but…
Can the Organizations wait for OEF/OIF veterans?
5 years. That is the most common statistic that I have seen that best fits the time that a separated military member spends before they seek out those old ties. Half the time that the current war on terrorism has been going on to simply start to attract the next largest number of combat veterans since WWII. In the same 5 years my organization and I suspect quite a few more have seen thousands of veterans pass on and even more grow old and no longer seek to run local or national operations. Gaps are forming where knowledge is not passed down and whole groups are faced with too few people to maintain a local function.
Most of the veteran organizations in my opinion fail to market well while members are serving. Don’t get me wrong, those who serve should be concentrating on the task at hand and while they shouldn’t be burdened with dealing with a veterans group they should be made aware that they are not immortal. One day they too will be ‘prior service’ and may be in need of assistance, benefits or simply an ear to talk about darker times nobody around them seems to understand.
Who will lobby for you in the future?
Many fine organizations offer services to veterans and support to the active military but I cannot help but speculate that as the ‘social’ members fall off, the percentage of individuals who volunteer and do the business of these organizations will diminish to such a degree that the future of the organization could be in jeopardy. The tragic result of this being that there may be a many more veterans who are fighting at home for benefits they deserve but doing it on their own.
Valued Resource
One thing I believe has been lost is the value in these organizations. Too many veterans feel that time on facebook or on various website forums is enough to cover those bonds. I find it funny that some of the strongest of these website groups are ones which have elected to get together at picnics or local gatherings yet many do not interact with organized groups. Is the value of the larger groups so far gone that veterans do not believe they can have that connection? Do younger military members feel that they do no need to band together after service?
If you’re a leader in any of the veteran groups let me just say that you should be fighting for change. Your future leadership has changed and if you are not already making the changes to keep locked in, you may just find yourself in a dead mans group and the last guy out the door will simply shut off the lights.
Change or die… so which is it going to be?
Category: Veterans Issues
This is going to sound way off the wall but I think the branch of service for specific organizations might have something to do with it. Everyone says Marines are brainwashed in boot camp, maybe in a way it’s true, but it’s why you see more vehicles, hats and clothing with Marine related things on them than any other branch. The 1st MarDiv Assn and the Marine Corps League are alive and well.
As for the American Legion, I personally think their rules for membership might be a bit out of whack. I didn’t serve during a time of eligibility for “regular” membership so I’m an associate member in the “Sons of the American Legion.” The membership rules have left out an entire generation of men and women who served between the mid ’70s and early ’80s. At AmLeg Post 41 it’s not a big deal because I’m the grandson, son, nephew, brother, cousin and close friends of late or full members of the post so I’m just “one of the guys”. There is a definite gap in the age groups of current regular members. Another thing that might affect membership might be how active the group is. Our post is located in a predominately lower working class, Hispanic neighborhood where our charity efforts make a real difference. Many of us grew up in similar circumstances to the folks in the ‘barrio’ around our post but we used our Veteran’s benefits to have a better life so we work extra hard to help.
Just my thoughts.
Don’t even ask me about the 11th Airborne Division Association. 2016 it will be gone?
I think it’s just a much larger generational gap which hinders OEF/OIF veterans and older generations from coming together. I don’t know of any other Post 9/11 vets that go to the VFW or anything like that to have a beer.
I haven’t actually ventured into one, but my idea of a VFW is a bunch of old WWII and Vietnam vets sitting around a bar drinking and talking. I think it could be a possibility of feeling inadequate among such men.
It’s really weird that you posted this today. Every Tuesday I go to group, which right now is kinda my “social activity”. While I was there at the Vet Center a couple guys from the Wounded Warrior Project was there talking to some of the staff about what they do. I have been progressing to where I want to get out into the public and try and actually do stuff. So I actually waited around until after they were done to talk with them. Hopefully I can get together with them and do some stuff with other vets.
Robert Putnam addresses this in his book “Bowling Alone” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone
But while this is also true of the larger society Rigger 82 makes a good point: we are entirely dependent on the government (via lobbying and political action) for our benefits. There are plenty of organizations that can help with this (AUSA is more than banking and insurance), but congresscritters respond to appeals from constituents and if you aren’t involved with a veterans group you are probably less likely to push veterans issues politically.
Once upon a time veterans were a huge demographic and elected officials knew that they had to take veterans issues seriously. But our numbers are not what they once were and our issues won’t be taken seriously unless we are active.
I think it’s certainly a generational issue. In years past, service members were less likely to be married and less likely to have the mobility of a car. They were also less likely to have many friends near where they were stationed, that weren’t in the military.
I think veterans social organizations were a product of those times, by and large.
I think this is more important than just carrying around a card. It’s my considered opinion that the solution to the suicide and PTS problem lies in the VSOs all reaching out to the newest generation of veterans. I’ve said a number of times that we all have a shared experience, whether you’re a combat soldier or a Cold Warrior. the younger soldiers really do appreciate our experiences in uniform and after we got out. I’m convinced that the reason so many guys harm themselves is because they think they’re alone. they don’t feel like they’re a part of society, and they left the closest friends they every had in the military. TSO began the process at the American Legion when he founded The Burn Pit and made the American Legion more attractive and more accessible to younger veterans. Rigger82 has done the same thing for the 82d Association. But I think that the VSOs need to do more than join the internet social networks. We all know how the AL and VFW are chocked full of old vets reminiscing with their friends at their own private bar, but that’s what the VSOs were for. How do you think they rebuilt their lives after the horrors they witnessed in WWII? It was the common bond, the shared experiences, all in their hometowns. A few years ago, several Medal of Honor recipients put together a video that reached out to the younger veterans that was something along the theme of “don’t let the enemy beat you at home”. It was a good start and I thought the VSOs would get behind those MOH vets and come to the battle at home, but it never happened. I think the VSOs owe it to this generation to formalize and cooperate on an outreach program. We all owe it to them. I’m a Life Member of the VFW, the 82d Airborne Division Association and a member of the American Legion. I joined the VFW when they came to my house when I retired and the local post offered to pay half of my fee.… Read more »
The ONLY “group” I have ever discovered, which is consistently intelligent and reliable — of ALL groups — is THIS AIN’T HELL, here, at the computer meeting hall .
There is a definite gap in the age groups of current regular members
You could say that about virtually any VSO. Consider–the youngest Vietnam vets are near 60, most are well into their 60’s or even 70’s by now. The youngest Korea vets are in their 80’s, and the few WWII vets we have left are in their late 80’s/early 90’s at least (I lost my WWII vet grandfather on New Year’s Day and he was 95.) This can be intimidating to a young person in their 20’s or even 30’s–hell, I’m in my late 40’s and still intimidated on some levels.
As far as the AmLeg goes, I would opine that how can a member have eligbility for the VFW but not for the American Legion? It can happen–ask, for example, a submarine veteran who served between 1976-90 who has either an SSBN patrol pin or Navy Expeditionary Medal, which would qualify him for the VFW, but not for the American Legion. Since many of the officers in one are serving or members of the other, one would think that a member of the VFW in good standing should be able to join the American Legion. This is something which should be addressed at a national level.
But as far as assistance goes, nobody from any of the VSOs save the DAV came to our separation lectures, and I never received a disability rating, so I figured that was that. I don’t know how or even if things have changed in the decade-plus since I left, but if they’re the same, it’s not that we don’t care about joining, but rather that we just don’t know, because the VSO’s haven’t done an effective job of reaching out to us. We don’t know what is available to us.
Maybe if the older vets didn’t treat the young ones like children or have that typical back in my day it was way tougher attitude. Heck I have been denied entry to 2 seperate organizations bars…that sure didn’t help my want to give them my wife’s money to be a member of their fraternity.
Maybe if the big organizations PAC’s weren’t working against us the more conservative of us would be more inclined.
Maybe if their wasn’t such a shitty economy and reentering the job force as a civilian “thing” going on.
Maybe if we didn’t feel like a target because of so called journalism, Tv, movies, and politicians.
Maybe if a trip to the VA didn’t seem as ied filled and more dangerous than a market walk in mosul.
Lastly the units at least in my experience don’t even have a closeness or that we will take care of our own attitude. The older leaders disdain and mistreat younger Joe’s. The army for one example has a real chew em up spit em out kind of feel amongst the younger Joe’s. The army has changed…dramatically. cold war leaders vrs gwot soldiers. Leaders eat first take leave first give bronzestars for paperwork to themselves go home everyday in ftx and just generally don’t do shit worth unless you call doing paperwork while having no sense of reality an accomplishment.
Guess my point is it is not the new generation sole responsibility to keep the old generations fraternities going. It is the old generations responsibility to make it invititng and safe and warm for us. Just saying welcome home while nice and a luxary viet Nam vets didn’t get isn’t going to endear an entire generation of people who weren’t even alive or taught or shown how it was.
I doubt it, Rigger82. There is a transition period that seems to me to be, a natural occurring event. Participation of veterans in these groups varies widely, from go mo to meh, I’ve got bigger problems to deal with. However, as I’ve learned from experiences with different sites, sooner or later vet’s rise to the occasion. It’s only a matter of time…
Why Jonn Lilyea. Your last comment is absolutely the most I have ever seen you post. Normally, you don’t say more than a few sentences. Very well done…Very well done! Hot damn, this man surprises me at times….Hooah.
Anon @10–it’s been my experience that the ones who pull that kind of shit were usually pogues or overblowing their accomplishments–read the posts here on Dallas Whitgenfeld and I’m sure you’ll agree.
By and large, I’ve been welcomed by both my local VFW and AL posts. Granted, the VFW post here doesn’t have a bar, but it does have some active programs for local vets and those serving overseas, and the Legion Riders here (sorry, not a member of that group) is very involved with local charities and rides for fallen vets here in NH.
Ok, mous. If you will, allow me to point out that the WWII vets have it ingrained into their minds, they are the greatest generation. Bar none. However, it is sad as hell that they choose to sit on their laurels, then shove into the faces of the next crop of vet’s how great they are. Sometimes I want to scream at ’em…”Any of you ass clowns ever rode a Huey in to battle”…Or, “WTF is wrong with you people” OR “Who da fuck do you think you are? GOD?”.
There is a very small number of Nam vet’s that take that same stance too. For them, I simply shake my head and sometimes ask myself if they got a frahking rip on their richard or what. As for me, I bend over to help you young guys ever damn chance I get and don’t ask a thing in return except maybe…Git out there, build yourself a nice life, don’t pay no heed to the chit heads because they will hold you down. Make no mistake about it. *Off my soap box*
ETA–final point, and I guess it’s all about marketing and targeting your largest audience, but the VSO’s are VERY slow to come around and identify with the younger generation–TSO’s article in this month’s Legion being a very notable exception. Most of the articles and advertising are geared towards older vets–kind of like the advertising you used to see in the Parade news magazine in your Sunday paper.
I know I’m old and fat (sort of) but I don’t need stretch pants that “look just like the real thing” or hearing aids just yet.
Well said Sparky. Somehow we’ve criss-crossed here. However, you not fat nor old, when you reach my age holla lil bro. LOL
Mr. Streetsweeper, your soapbox is formed of polished walnut, if you don’t mind my saying .
Doc, I sometimes slip up and say more than I should other times, I don’t mind taking it right to ’em. WE are all veterans no matter where our tour of duty was. Just, some have this fantasy thang attached, then I redirect ’em to people such as whom I consider longtime friends, Lilyea, 1stCAVRvn, Ponsdorf, et all.
By the way, I will take the polished walnut soapbox as a compliment. That is if you don’t mind, lol.
Hell, you did NOT slip — your traction is precise.
HONEST SINCERITY is practically an outlaw, and is often suspect — but it’s the only way.
I may copy your nice soapbox (make my own), from time to time .
Go for it, Doc. Just keep the shiny MP badge mounted mid-way polished. K? street out.
I understand what anonamous is saying. The previous events builds distrust then when you come home and you try to walk into the vfw, al or whatever and they kinda look down their nose at you because you are some “kid” rather than an equal a fellow vet it is hard. I may go crazy and get a lot of shit, but I have been around a lot of female vets and can imagine what it is like for a female who has been on a couple deployments to go into a vfw only to be handed an aplication for the ladies auxilliary? Every time I walk into the VA I hear about me being a young guy? I’m 36, I couldn’t imagine being in my 20s. Hell one time I had to bring my son because of an issue with a babysitter and I had an older veteran tell me that the VA was no place for a kid. There is a generation gap, many of the service organizations and social organizations are geared for mainly men 60 and above. They aren’t geared towards veterans who are now anywhere from 20 and up. Like sparky said I may be a fatty but I don’t need pants with 3inches of hidden stretch my wang does work so herbal cialis and penis pumps I don’t need, but I would like maybe a veteran hat that doesn’t look like a freaking bilboard….
“point is it is not the new generation sole responsibility to keep the old generations fraternities going. It is the old generations responsibility to make it inviting and safe and warm for us” quote from 10
“There is a generation gap, many of the service organizations and social organizations are geared for mainly men 60 and above” quote from 21
I am 28 on Thursday and refused to have my cheek pinched and told to go run along. Mr. Lilyea is right I do feel alone no doubt about that.
Maybe because we didn’t save the world from Hitler and Tojo or maybe because we weren’t all treated as badly as the Vietnam guys. But I do not have this great bond with people of my own generation let alone people from others. There is a small group of people I hold dear in my heart, most the men from my army I would not even recognize if I walked past them.
The few that I do cherish I do have a Facebook account for. I get to see them being funny, strong, see their kids, their wives, little glimpses into their lives.
Don’t even get me started on the VA.
” . . . refused to have my cheek pinched and told to go run along.”
Hell, I’m way over sixty — and I get that impression at times !! I just tweak whoever it is, or act a little arrogant, and see if the man adjusts. If not, he can probably go to hell.
I “lower” myself to no man — I prefer to rise .
Life member, VFW. Joined less than 3 weeks after getting home in 2004. It’s sometimes therapeutic to be among people that know exactly what I’m talking about, even when I don’t say anything more than “hooah”.
Besides…..beer’s cheap 🙂
I’ve been going to the American Legion for about 4 years now. I’m not a veteran, but I was eligible for the American Legion Auxiliary through both my father and my maternal grandfather. Even at 41, I’m still one of the “young people” at the Post. My fiance decided to join (I brought him along to the monthly socials and he was looking for something new to get involved in). I think they’ve signed up some younger members (one guy came with this wife, toddler and infant, but I haven’t seen the but maybe once since then). Here in Austin, I guess they don’t have good outlets to go talk to guys about to get out. They have been to a few Yellow Ribbon events, but if you know anything about those, many of the soldiers (NG in this case) don’t live around here. My fiance met a young veteran at his new job. He thought about inviting him to the Post, be then he had his setback with his heart and missed a lot of work. I need to ask if he’s seen him again…
About the magazine: I get the one for the Auxiliary. Yeah, the ads in there are all for old ladies… I can see that it’s the same thing with the Legion magazine…
I can endorse the principals of Rigger’s post. I am a life member of the VFW and have been some time. I have at times been an annual member of the AmLeg. (I mention this with trepidation that TSO will show up at my door, blue in the face, and requiring medical aid.) To those complaining that the youth have no responsibility to keep the Fraternal Organizations of Veterans alive, I ask: How long do you believe that the aging Veterans can keep these posts on life support waiting for you to take the lead, and morph it into the posts that your brothers want to visit? I ask that because that is what many of Our Viet Nam Brothers are doing. They are trying to keep their post alive long enough for YOU to come in and learn the ropes. Every post has its own personality. If you don’t like your reception at one, go down the road and check out the next one. They’re as unique as the individuals inside. My annual courtships with the AmLeg? Yeah, I didn’t agree with the personalities of those posts, or vice versa. I can tell you that at MY Post, we welcome the current generation. If an OEF/OIF/ODS Veteran walks in, they’re not likely to pay for a drink the entire night. They may get a chance to do so on their next visit. Our wall includes pics from WWI, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, Afghanistan, & Iraq. Yes, the majority of the membership are Viet Nam Vets, and they carry the weight of the responsibilities of the post. The AmLeg and VFW have a very important asset that will be lost if the youngest generation doesn’t join: Real Estate. Yes, this is important, because it means that Veterans can come together with people that understand US, because they are US, whenever we want. We can talk about things that are important, but more importantly, understood by us. Those old guys want things to be easier on you than it was on them. They want you to have the tools you need.… Read more »
Fella’s, I got one up on the three of you. Last Post I strolled into, I sat down, ordered a beer and looked around. Each of those men and one lady were looking sorta weird at me. One of them got a bur under his blanket and came over wanting to who I am, when and where I served…
My reply was, “I’m nobody really special, US Army Military Police”. Talk about get and stay the hell away from me…It was priceless. You simply had to be there, lol.
May I second what WOTN said?
Been in and out of only a few posts myself because first, I’m just not a joiner and second, because I just didn’t want the hassle.
Became a VFW life member only when a frined drug me in. Am now fairly active in a local post because another friend invited me there. They have welcomed me among them.
Will especially second the recommendation that folks find a post where they do feel comfortable, or find someone they know who belongs. It can be worth the effort in so many ways.
I might also make a suggestion: if you are considering the American Legion or VFW, I understand they both have ladies auxiliaries. If you have a spouse/significant other, you can try to get her involved with that. Legion activities are something my fiance and I can do together, though we don’t have to be joined at the hip while we are at events. Your “other half” may also benefit from talking to women who might have similar experiences (though I don’t qualify, as I was just an Army brat growing up and my fiance has been out of the service in the ballpark of 20 years).
Thanks everyone for the great comments and support. I really think that these organizations are going to be a solid support system but they need to adapt. Case in point is that LADIES Auxiliary stuff, in the 82nd we have a Ladies brunch yet we have FEMALE troopers with husbands.
Perception is reality and the simple act of inclusion and saying its a spouses event or auxiliary would go a long way towards showing that these organizations are not the ‘mens club and dutiful wife’ groups of the past.
Mark, a few years ago, the VFW (finally) approved the “Men’s Auxiliary” which is similiar to the Sons of the Legion. Not all (in fact very few) posts have initiated the Post version of it, but this is one way in which they are adapting in the way you’re talking about.
A point I tried to make in the above is that the organizations won’t understand the scope of any changes needed until the new generation is there, and making recommendations, if not also helping implementing those changes.
Does your post have a FB page? Statistics say no, but that doesn’t mean they can’t have one, if you set it up. That’s a simple thing for an OIF veteran, but not likely something a WWII vet would do himself. How about a web page? Little more of a challenge but many of the youth could do so.
And in no way did I intend my focus on the VFW/AmLeg to detract from organizations like the 82nd, but I had to stick with my experiences. I know nothing about that one.
But I would caution that there are look-alikes out there, like the IAVA or GSF that appear to be a VSO, but are actually a partisan political PAC.
Correction: BSF (PAC), not GSF
An outstanding piece and responses. I forwarded this to members of my American Legion Post. I even explained the TAH blog with a link and even what a blog is…etc.
The last paragraph and sentence was powerful and an attention-getter. I hope it does to others what it did for me- confirms my similar thoughts and observations.
WOTN, I understand about your using your experience, I didnt mention it but years ago I was in the VFW after Desert Storm and was so put off by the attitude of “shut up and sit in the back until you’re grey THEN you can talk” that I stopped going and let the membership go.
As far as younger generation stepping up. Here’s one of the reasons that I wrote this piece, the 82nd is in hard times and they’re scrambling to make money changes but I believe they are short sighted and not looking at the longer term future of the organization. I wrote and submitted to the HQ and to the facebook group for discussion my document (which you can read in PDF form here http://db.tt/ufJIqVdw or read the comments after https://www.facebook.com/groups/6278222209/permalink/10150885936187210/)
I was generally astonished at the lack of interaction. 4000+ people on the group and half a dozen people commenting. I prodded the younger troopers and found that many of them were waiting in the wings and had the attitude that ‘the old guys run things’ rather than the ‘step up and grab hold’.
The first time I walked into my post, I was greeted by a VietNam Vet with fire in his eyes and piercing questions. That turned 180 degrees when I returned with my DD214. He welcomed me in, and always invited me to his table. He introduced me to everyone that came through the doors. After a few years, he convinced me to get the Life Member card, which I’ve never regretted.
In those days we had 1 WWII Vet that still came by. Today the senior member I see is a Korean Vet, and we have a sprinkling of ODS/OEF/OIF Vets.
When I’ve traveled, I have visited other posts. Most welcomed me in, but even with a Life Member card, there have been times that I’ve walked into a post and was welcomed less than a folding chair in the corner, or met with passive aggressiveness.
I’ve also seen other organizations, with a growing membership, as they make the transition from one that meets at the VFW/AmLeg monthly, as they attempt to establish a physical presence of their own. It’s a steep mountain to climb. And there are VFW/AmLeg posts out there that are losing their charters for lack of membership or participation.
Oh and by the way for people like me TAH is kinda like my social group. I am working on not isolating I am not quite there yet but I am getting better. Have you thought about that as part of what you are competeing against. The fact that rather than going to a local hall someone can hop on a computer and talk to someone else of their own generation?
I agree with JPJ; although I’m not always in the same lane regarding politics and such with the majority here……more importantly most people here ‘get it’, and I don’t really feel comfortable around people who don’t.
Seems must the new generation are on the same page while comments from older have only reinforced or proved our points or thoughts.
For those that think they had it rougher than the new generation google small unit kill team. In response to wotn: if it was my or my generations fraternity how come we/they aren’t joining in droves. Is it numbers because we have them, huge combat veteran numbers.
Again it is not my responsibility to keep other mens fraternity going. I am not saddened by he fact that posts are closing. Adapt or die. If its closing it is probably for a viable reason. My local AmLegion doesn’t even have real estate. They meet in a retirement communities club house. I am not even allowed to live in that community. so why would I pay them dues they don’t have anything to offer me besides hostility passive aggresivness etc.
Can I black out my dd214? Void everything aside from my name and deployment dates? How would that fly? I don’t need to prove myself to another vet when it is him who wants my membership and money. He and the posts need to prove themselves to me. Why not speaker at the exit classes? Why no volunteer to help me exit? Not even a flyer or pamphlet or show of their want to recruit me as I excited.
I am not trying to bully or point fingers. I think that those organizations work for who is in them. They just don’t work for who’s out. Or make much off an effort to recruit. Wotn your comments pretty much validated the comments of the new generation.
I’ve been a life member of the VFW since shortly after I returned from Iraq in 2004. I paid the dues and stepped foot into my post maybe twice after that. I stuck my head in the door in the Cadiz, KY and Chester, VA posts and actually drank beer once or twice in Hopkinsville, as well as during a friend’s wedding reception in Upstate NY. Then all everything lined up nicely. The Baton Rouge post was right off my route home, and recruiting duty drove me to yearn for a quiet place for a beer or two. The regulars there welcomed me with open arms–from the 93-year-old WWII Airborne vet who still rides his Harley to the Vietnam vets. Unfortunately, the post only had few young members, at least two of whom had moved from the area. Having a Marine Vietnam vet start to shed tears when introducing me to someone was awkward before I realized that he was overcome by the sacrifices young men and women continue to make. On to the social organizations… I joined The Old Guard Association for a year and plan to join for life eventually (unfortunately, I missed out on the $50 life membership for active members of the Regiment). The Rakkasan Association will be the first I join for life, though. Ten years ago I was a young(er) E-1 who got to meet many Golden Rakksans during the Hamburger Hill reunion. It’s been some time, but I recall talking with the retired Colonel who commanded one of the artillery units that gave supporting fires. The esprit de corps instilled in my during my time with 3/187 hasn’t been exceeded since. Ten years after our time together, brothers whose names I’ve long forgotten send me friend requests in Facebook. Speaking of which, perhaps part of the reason for a drop in social organization membership is the advent of social networking. Facebook, for example, has many unit groups that are just easier for today’s generation to join. Pretty much all the social organizations I’ve checked into require an application to be printed, filled out,… Read more »
Is there a generational gap? Yes. And this is alluded to in the comments of JPJ and others that point to FB and TAH as their means of chatting with like-minded individuals. “They get it.” Yes, they do. That’s part of why we chat here. BUT, there is a difference in typing words to a faceless person, and sharing a beer with a friend. And it is demonstrated in the words of SUKT (#38) and others, and I paraphrase: “What are they going to do for me!?!?” I understand that there are many of today’s youth that are not self-centered, individuals, but team players, but often that “Army of One,” individualistic attitude is the thing that comes across to our Elder Brothers of prior wars, when viewing the youth. I’ll say this as clearly as possible: If your ONLY concern about whether or not to join an organization is what you can get out of it, and you have no desire to contribute to the Brotherhood of Warriors, then a VFW/AmLegion is NOT a good fit for you. There are enough leeches in society, and these organizations do not fill that role. They are not a teet for you to suck on. They ask their members to contribute and help their communities. There are certainly benefits to membership, but you’ll only get out of it as much as you put in. SUKT, I served long enough, as well as recently enough, to know how much easier it is serving in Afghanistan today than it was serving in Desert Storm. I have weathered out sandstorms in 120 degree heat, inside a GP-Small and in a CHU. I’ve put sandbags down in a soft skin HumVee with 4-60 (4 windows x 60mph) airconditioning and enjoyed the AC of an MRAP. I’ve humped 100+ pounds up the mountain to below freezing temps, using a rock as a pillow, and worn Mopp-4 in 100 degree(+) temps, for weeks at a time. I had an LBE that cut into my shoulders, with 1 qt canteens of “purified” water, and enjoyed the delivery of bottled water… Read more »
One point that you made, that appears to have been lost in translation, WOTN, is that these organizations may well be willing to adapt, but they can only adapt to what it’s members demand.
It is a shared responsibility. It is almost meaningless effort for any organization to pull ideas from mid-air which might or might not appeal to younger, more energetic potential members. On the other hand, few of us are willing to break down doors in the hope that a group will adapt to our presense.
One of the beauties of all the assorted veterans orgs is that they have various “rules,” some sort of framework for their priorities, within which to operate but a LOT of freedom for specific missions as well. That allows for the passing of some traditions while being flexible enough to modernize.
It’s all good. Really. We each get to choose if and how we wish to join. But, none of the orgs is going to be a perfect match for everyone. And none of them can read minds well enough to offer something they cannot know someone needs or wants without being informed.
Informing the existing organizations is the resposibility of the younger generation. Either that or you can watch them all die, then try to recreate your own version of them to suit yourselves. It might be easier to reform established entities than to build new ones.
I dunno. Maybe not. Your collective decision to make.
OWB, you are spot on. These organizations can NOT guess what those they don’t know are looking for. In a post that has no Veteran other than Viet Nam Veterans, they cannot grasp what an OIF/OEF Veteran is looking for. They want to keep their foot in the door until the younger generation is willing to walk through the door and take their seats, but if the post dies off because they die off, it doesn’t hurt them. It is only a loss to them because they couldn’t hand it off to the new generation.
They (the Viet Nam Vets) had to struggle to get their seats. They should not have to struggle to convince this generation to accept theirs. They want to give us a seat at the table, but they won’t beg, and they won’t suffer frauds any more than Jonn does. A 214 is proof, and it seems a popular idea amongst the frauds to claim theirs can’t be seen.
Ive considered a ‘virtual’ or ‘online’ based organization. Even pitched ‘virtual’ chapters to the 82nd but the acceptance is not there.
The thing is, it’s a team effort for change. The senior leadership has to be willing to do things it may not fully understand or even use (so long as those changes dont negatively impact the way they have enjoyed the organization), the middle generation of military (my age) need to get more involved, learn how the organization has been run so we’re able to step up and step in appropriately as well as STEER the change and act as the translator for the newest generation who must keep an open mind and trust that while they may not see it NOW, they will one day come to appreciate having a place that will support them, understand them and hopefully protect the earned benefits that they and their family may depend on.
We are only as strong as the unit. Division in the ranks weaken our ability to operate effectively and insure that those who send us to war remember the promises they made. Our JOB is not to keep the organization alive so we can drink cheap beer, it is to honor those who have gone before us, paid the ultimate price or suffer through the rest of life with challenges no one should have to bear. We need to support each other because we ALL know that nobody else will as well as a fellow veteran.
@43 I heard the State of Georgia’s Department American Legion is attempting to have a completely “on-line post.” This means you are a member of the post, can live anywhere and your IPOD/Computer etc. is your meeting hall, lounge etc.. They are working out the bugs (e.g. voting).
I second the comment @10. I’m 33, been an active duty Army officer in a pogue CSS branch for over 4 years, did a yearlong deployment to afghanistan based at a remote FOB from 2010-11. I’ve been considering joining VFW or AmLeg since I returned from Afghanistan last year. But I had my reservations, which this thread has only confirmed. With all the “back in my day it was SO much harder” and “if you’re not combat arms you aint sh*t” d*ck-measuring that seems to be rife in the VSOs (based on what I’ve read in the comments here), why the hell would I ever want to join one now or ever? Why would I pay money and put in my limited time (time I don’t get to spend with my family) to sit around and get shat on by a bunch of guys who can’t seem to bring themselves to respect anyone under the age of 65? The common thread for all veterans seems to be that you really only relate to those who served contemporaneously with you. I can’t really relate to anyone other than GWOT-era guys b/c frankly I can’t compare my military experiences and those of my peers with ODS, Vietnam, Korea and WWII vets. These were vastly different eras and militaries from what we have now and different social fabrics. Vietnam guys may even say the same about Korea or WWII vets. This is just how it is. There’s such a disconnect with the older guys and GWOT guys that the vast majority of GWOT guys are better off starting their own thing. And when we truly need our own VSO (as opposed to a PAC), someone will start one. Ultimately this isn’t about younger guys not respecting the sacrifices of previous generations. Every decent Soldier I know in my peer group has acknowledged, “I can’t even imagine being in the Army in Vietnam, Korea or WWII…it was so much harder/crazier/murkier then.” We know we have the luxury of CHUs, mobile PXs, DFACs with freakin’ ice cream at every meal, and wireless internet (even in… Read more »
one more thing…the ratio of CS and CSS Soldiers needed to sustain each warfighter in a combat zone means that in the pool of GWOT veterans, you have way more “pogues” than CIB wearers. if the VSOs continue to dismiss the service of all those non-11Bs out there, they’re setting themselves up for failure in the fight to keep the VSOs alive. it’s a numbers game and the math ain’t hard.
Cynic, et.al., Visit a post, or not. Join a post, or go your own way. Accept the gift handed down to you, primarily from those Viet Nam Veterans who have kept these organizations alive after getting it from Our WWII and Korean Brothers. I will say this again: If these posts die on the vine, it doesn’t hurt those who grew old and died waiting for YOU to pick up the colors. It only hurts the new generation, who was too proud to accept that gift. As others stated, Our Viet Nam brothers would be ineffective taking stabs in the dark of what OIF/OEF generation “want,” but they would be irresponsible to accept the word of every body walking in the door without proof of service as qualified for membership. The only one I’ve noticed talking about CIB’s is a CSS officer, not the current members of the organizations. With that being said, a high percentage of current members are NOT infantry, because there was a much higher ratio of support to Infantry in 1990 and 1970 and 1950, than there are now. The 90’s saw those support positions moved to DoD civilians and contractors. In Desert Storm, it was Soldiers “cooking” the T-Rats. It was an E5 running supply. It was an O2 and E7 running S4. It was a group of E3’s and E4’s doing finance and personnel actions. And even the “PX” tent was ran by the Battalion Retention NCO’s. And it was your buddy with clippers that cut your hair. Civilians on the battlefield. Yep, we had ONE. And those Troops did a better job than unaccountable civilians with no skin in the game, and cost less to do it. You know who pushed for payraises, to bring your current pay to closer to civilian pay equavalency: the VFW and American Legion. Who pushed for upgrades to equipment so your vehicles were armored instead of light skinned? Yep, the VFW and American Legion. Who pushed back when the politicians and protestors started turning against Our Troops, again, those Viet Nam Vets, in the form of Gathering… Read more »
I certainly don’t mean to come off as a selfish prick that is ignorant of what the VSOs represent. As a high school student I participated in the VFW speech contest for four years and got to know some fine American patriots who took the time to instill a love of country into a young kid growing up in the Clinton era. But I will also say that we now live in a society that is rapidly forgetting what the VSOs represent because so few have any stake in the military. They forget that it was their elected leaders who sent us off to war while they watched war porn on CNN and Fox. When we come back and my comrades suffer through hidden injuries like TBI they allow congress to slash VA benefits. In this sort of sad state, we all should band together as vets to preserve that sense of duty that is becoming rarer in this nation. Yet sometimes it just seems like older vets are too consumed with “sizing” us up. Maybe all it takes is a legit DD214 to dispel all that nonsense but I just don’t get the sense that the old guard is sending out a welcoming message effectively to the GWOT guys. I don’t want to see the VSOs die, maybe I just need to wait my 5 yrs after leaving the service to take that step. Anyway, that’s my 2 cents. All the way!
BTW: If every OEF/OIF/ODS Veteran joined, it would not outpace the number of Viet Nam/Korea/WWII Veterans that die every 4 years. In 2010, approximately 250,000 of Our WWII brothers died.
In 2010, there were 22.7 Million living Veterans. There were approx 27 Million in 2000. With the 10 years of war, Our Elder Brothers were dying faster than war created Our youngest Brothers. (DVA is the source of these statistics.)
No. 48 Mr. Cynic — I, for one, LIKE your attitude (SELFISH or not), and, your comments .