Cry-baby atheists at Camp Pendleton
In 2003 before they deployed to Iraq, several Marines erected a crude cross in the sand at Camp Pendleton. AT east three of those Marines wouldn’t return from iraq. Their cross burned during a brushfire in 2007, but Scott Radetski rebuilt the cross and made it fireproof and helped to put it back in the spot where the original had been.
Now, the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers is offended by the sight of something they can’t see according to Stars & Stripes;
After an article about the new cross appeared in the Los Angeles Times, the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers protested to base officials that the cross violates the separation of church and state required by the Constitution.
At their website, the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers calls the cross erected by grieving friends of fallen Marines “stolen valor”.
Ya know, I’m not particularly religious…I haven’t been in a church in decades…but I’m not in the habit of ruining other peoples’ beliefs. And I don’t see the erection of a cross in the desert as particularly harmful or dangerous. And I certainly don’t like an organization who thinks that they have the corner on the market of “free thinkng”.
Category: Military issues
I’m a devout agnostic and believe that religion has no place in the politics of a free society, but I don’t have an issue with a cross being raised on Pendleton.
It goes to show that even fellow travelers go overboard and stain a cause with idiocy.
Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers huh?
I’m a Neo-Pagan/Discordian myself and I don’t feel threatened by religious symbols. Unless someone is swinging them at me, that is.
These folks are to free thinking what Fred Phelps is to Christianity.
Look at it this way. The atheists were overly represented before the cross was installed: There was nothing there.
Look at it this way. Before the cross was installed, the atheists were overly represented: There was nothing there.
Yipes. That didn’t go according to plan.
It’s a clever point, nothing wrong with repeating it.
Allow me to play devil’s advocate here (ha ha)…
I think the whole point of them wanting the cross down is not because it is a christian symbol- it’s because it is a religious symbol. According the the Constitution, our government of course does not endorse/promote religion.
I wonder if there would be the same outrage if it were not a cross, but instead a giant Buddha, or a muslim Crescent.
Gotta love how people get so fucking butthurt over something they don’t even believe.
@7: True, the Constitution says that congrtess shall make no law, however, the athiests aren’t being forced to become Christian by the government and the government didn’t erect the cross. If we want to travel down that slippery slope, then we would have to go to several public institutions of higher learning as well as several public schools and order them to cease with special treatment for muslim students. The college my daughter goes to has a “reflection room” that the school says is non-religious, however, the muslim students have taken over the entire room and refuse to let non-muslims in their. The college does nothing about it. The college I went to spent taxpayer money to put foot bathes in the restrooms for the muslim students to wash their feet before going into their little prayer room all provided by the school. My younger daughters high school set aside an empty classroom during EID for the muslim kids to go and pray, yet will not allow the word “Christmas” to be used at Christmas time, or Easter, etc. Why don’t the atiests go after the muslims? Fear. They know that Christians are much more tolerant and will give in. You can get funding from the federal government to put a crucifix in a jar of urine and call it art (yeah, they call that “edgy” in the art world, if they really want to be “edgy”, I dare them to try that with a koran), but some chucklehead says he’s gonna burn a koran and everyone loses their mind; the muslims with anger and everyone else with fear. The suburb next to me has a high population of jewish people and when traveling down the highway, you can see a giant wooden menorah during the holidays right by the highway. Does it cause people to swerve into the ditch? Do people go on 3 state killing sprees because of it? Hell, the muslims don’t even have a problem with it. The point is; who cares? Is just the thought of the cross being out in the desert enough to… Read more »
I can’t believe these people are stupid as to think that the phrase ‘Separation of Church and State’ even exist ANYWHERE in our Constitution and/or its amendments and to think that’s what the phrase meant to begin with when it was first used.
Public Education at its finest.
Maybe they should ask the dead what they think.
My sergeant, an avowed atheist, fully supported that cross. Nine months later I was climbing that hill, with the rest of my company, to put his rock at the base of the cross.
The cross is visible if you know where to look and if the clouds are not hiding Microwave.
BTW it is no more a violation of Church and State (which is not in the Constitution) than the hiring of chaplains.
I’m pretty much an apatheist these days, and I’ve got some strong opinions about the protection of our civil liberties. But I refuse to take seriously atheist groups who insist that obscurely-placed symbols threaten the entire separation of church and state, until those same atheist groups start protesting and filing suit over being forced to take a paid holiday on Christmas.
Good point, Andy!
In the meanwhile, there is more to that Amendment, which they conveniently always ignore – the part about interferring with the free exercise of one’s religion. As with all things, a balance is required. As long as your religion does not require me to participate (as in attend, take substantive action to avoid it or PAY for it), then you are free to exercise it as long as it does not violate other laws.
Still scratching my head with the entire concept that NOT believing in something is threatened by someone else believing in it.
Only the Atheists have a problem with Christian symbols. Only Christianity is being attacked by these Atheists. Have you heard about an Atheist suing because the Star and Crescent or the Star of David was displayed in the wilderness area of some military base? Have you heard about a Muslim or a Jew or Zoroastrian suing because they’re offended by some religious symbol that’s not of their own faith? NO and NO!
Only when you understand that the Atheists are at war with Christianity will you understand that everything they say is to support their position that there is no God. They claim it violates their freedom of religion, but their religion is that there is no god. When they go to court to ask the judge to remove Christian symbols from some classroom or some military base, they are practicing their religion. Some people practice religion by prayer, some by erecting glorious houses of prayer. Some people even go further and become monks or priests or rabbis. But when an Atheist wants to take their asinine religion to the next level, they go to court. An Atheist’s prayer is called an injunction.
Jack, there actually have been a significant number of cases of Muslims suing over the practice of other religions. (No, I don’t have cites for them handy, or know them off hand.) iirc, the ACLU has represented some of them, CAIR some – the usual suspects.
It is hard to believe that our parents (perhaps) grandparents (more likely), and great-grandparents (definitely) actually recited prayers at the beginning of each day in public school and, in many cases, studied the Bible as part of their school curriculum. Fast forward mere decades and we are at the point where a cross, erected in the middle of nowhere but on government property, is a problem. That’s amazing stuff.
OWB, it’s worth noting that the ACLU has also filed numerous suits and advocated on behalf of individual Christians’ freedom of religion.
http://www.aclufightsforchristians.com/
@16 – That’s why balance is important. There should be no issue with a private venture to erect a cross, even on public land, as long as the taxpayers are not obliged for it’s upkeep.
Likewise, there is not only no compelling reason for prayer in public schools, there is actually no prohibition of it. A student may pray at any time they wish.
@12 – Apathist…I like.
That cross has become an unofficial memorial for the 1st Marine Regiment. The Marines who helped erect it were 2/1 Marines and, as the article stated, three of them were killed. Usually, when a Marine was killed from 1st Marines, the Marines from his battalion would a carry a rock with that Marine’s name on it up to the cross and place it at the base of the cross as a way to memorialize their fallen brothers.
What this group is doing is spitting in the face of the Marines of the 1st Marine Regiment who have died during the GWOT.
Yes, CI. I was spotlighting the quicksilver-like pace of the change.
I wonder if the gov’t would be willing to lease the small plot to a private concern for, say, 99 years.
so I’m guessing athiests are pretty much screwed when vampires show up huh?
>Look at it this way. Before the cross was installed, the atheists were overly represented: There was nothing there.
Good point.. Not only that but due to the militantcy(is that a word?) of some of todays atheistic groups; they have become a religion onto themselves. If you scrub all religion out of the public spector-wouldn’t that be a government endorsing atheism?
>the part about interferring with the free exercise of one’s religion.
Yep CI, they usually forget that part. They also forget the part that until the courts starting messing with it-“Congress” was not a broad definition. It was in fact federal religion that the founders meant and many of states had state religions. Most of the colleges that we revere today were originally state funded religious schools. “Congress shall not” meant Congress shall not.
“There should be no issue with a private venture to erect a cross, even on public land, as long as the taxpayers are not obliged for it’s upkeep.”
You really think people should be able to erect permanent monuments on public land at whim?
It’s interesting that a group of people who deny the existence of God, acknowledge that there is a God, so that they can file suit to deny the existence of God. Simplified, I know, but ironic.
Yeah, there is and should be complete seperation between church and state. The ones who conveniently don’t believe in seperation are the ones benefitting from the prevailing religious predjudice. As history has shown, it’s a slippery slope. Put the cross on private land – problem solved.
Hey, Joe…c’mere. You left another pile on the carpet.
This nation was FOUNDED on Judeo-Christian principles. You can’t remove religion from the system of government we have anymore than you could remove the vital organs of a person and expect either to survive.
The whole bit in the first Amendment was to ensure that there was no state-sponsored religion, as the Brits had with the Church of England, or alternating between that and Catholicism back in the 16th Century, and all the great fun and bloodbaths that went along with it.
@26 – “You can’t remove religion from the system of government we have anymore than you could remove the vital organs of a person and expect either to survive.”
You can – and must for a free society – remove religion from government where there is not a secular value as well. There’s not a thing wrong with having code that is based on or comports with Judeo-Christian values, but it can’t simply be there to respect a religious dogma.
@ 27 was me….had to move to a new computer and forgot that my prefs weren’t saved.
Though they make up a part of our early history, this country was not founded on Judeo/Christian principles, that’s history. Our formation owes way more to various secular movements popular in the time than it does to religion. That being said, there is also no such thing as a wall between the church and the state in the Constitution, this is also history.
I’m a very comfortable agnostic and feel absolutly no threat in the face of religious symbolism on Govt. property, the whole debacle is representative of a minority position founded on stupid insecurities. The Marines should be allowed to keep their memorial.
@29: Early part? That’s still our history. a majority of this country identifies itself as christian, and I think you’d find an even larger portion identifying with christian values. HELL our whole system of Law is pretty much BASED on Jewish law (minus certain Kosher restrictions)
In every way shape and form we are living in a Christian society. The West hasn’t been Atheist or pagan since the Roman Empire, and most of our advances in science and math were because those men wanted to understand God’s creation.
It is only in the 20th Century that the West has tried to divorce itself from Christianity, and the results are clear. We have suffered social, economic, and in many ways spiritual stagnation. We have traded Hope for (false)Hope & Change, and been surprised when it tastes like battery acid.
People can believe what they want. I believe that I’ve come very close to getting killed. I should have been killed and I believe that God saved me. I believe it is wrong to tare down any symbol of worship or remembrance. Regardless of the “constitutionality” of it.
>this country was not founded on Judeo/Christian principles, that’s history.
Ahh yeah it was; that’ history. Almost every state at the time of the countries inception had a formal religion. As I said earlier, the schools were founded for religious learning. Back in the founding days, people weren’t scared of religion like they are now.
They understood the fact that people of the time had someone to answer for their actions that wasn’t the government–therefore they didn’t need the government to oversee their actions. The founders knew that if you took away a “creator” who gave you unalienable rights-that left the government giving you those rights. When the government gives you right; it has the right to take them away.
>Though they make up a part of our early history, this country was not founded on Judeo/Christian principles, that’s history.
And furthermore, I am really shocked at how ignorant people are of the history of this country. I mean you can argue what religion means for the country today, but to argue that this country was not founded on Judeo Christian principles is just flabbergasting. Read the fricking state Constitutions that were much more religious than ours. Some of them were written by the same people who had imput into our Constitutions and Bill of Rights.
Your side always quotes Jefferson, Adams and Franklin(selectively I might add), but they were only three of many founders- most who were devote. Try looking into Samuel Adams for once, and not the atheistic bent view that has arisen in the 20th century.
The Constitution guarantees freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion. These little bitch turds must be pretty shakey in their “non-belief” to feel pressured to convert to Christianity by this cross.
As far as I’m concerned, a person’s relationship with their God is their business unless they are actively interfering in someone else’s beliefs. A Cross in the desert is not an active interference in anyone’s beliefs or lack there of.
Many of the founders were deists. Their personal beliefs are irrelevant, though, as the Constitution clearly establishes a strictly secular government.
Usually, though, I ignore historical “imput” from people who can barely manage to string a few legible sentences together. Yeah, I believe you’ve read a lot of history. I bet it was all primary sources, too. Right…
Strange. Back in the day, we only read primary sources!
most of the primary souses I’ve read make it very clear that God was a fundamental part of the public right up till the Progressive movement, and even then Wilson used Deistic imagery to sell WWI. During WWII it was very, VERY important. More-so when we were facing thermonuclear war. It was only in the 60’s and 70’s that the “disillusion” really happened. Its also clear that immediately during and afterward America’s power massively declined, and it was only when Reagan came into power (a firm believer if ever there was one) did America begin to regain its glory.
Indeed if you read the primary sources, its clear that the more comfortable with faith a president, the (generally) better the country does.
Well, as has been documented many times and even part of the Congressional Record, one of the main points of the communists goals was to remove religion from every aspect of society.
Think about it: The ACLU was founded by a draft dodging communist. The enviromental movement puts “Mother Earth” as the deity. So-called “intellectuals” make it a prerequisite that in order to be a “free thinking intellectual” you must disavow religion, as though having belief in a higher being somehow makes you retarded. They have convinced themselves that having such beliefs are a sign of the intellectually stunted, which they do in order for them to feel self important and smarter than they really are.
Even when we had a more Christian oriented society; was there a concerted effort to wipe out other religions? Was there a movement to push the mention of other beliefs out of public life? What is amazing is the athiests, and their supporters, push to remove all mentions of Christianity out of anything that has to do with public anything. So; who is more tolerant? The athiest or the Christian?
As long as the Corps dosn’t take sides I don’t see the problem. The Atheists are free to erect a ….. uh…..hmmm….
Joey: I have a serious question for you. Are you retarded? None of us here want to mock, attack, or alienate you if you are. Go ahead. It’s okay. Just let us know. But please consider your answer carefully as the consequences depend upon it.
The Atheists are free to erect a ….. uh…..hmmm….. an atom? A molecule? The solar system? The periodic table? The human genome?
Time marches on, old, discredited views are abandoned, new, better ones fill their place. Remember when Zeus was god? Odin? Isis? Whatever became of them?
2-17 AirCav,
In answer – I hope not. But I am tired of smug, self righteous christians acting like their fairy story is the only legitimate version of realtiy.
@32 – “Your side always quotes Jefferson, Adams and Franklin(selectively I might add), but they were only three of many founders”
I’d be interested as to where you draw the lines for ‘sides’….but my main point is that you know your statement is a bit disingenuous. The ‘other side’ has just as much history of selective quotes. One need look no farther than David Barton to prove that case.
As far as gauging how devout the founders were or how much people relied on religion, let’s not forget the context of the very recent history [to that time] where religious interference in government – and vice versa – was the norm.
Doc Bailey,
Ever see “The Pianist”, when Spielman thanks Captain Wilm Hosenfled for saving him, and Hosenfeeld replies, “Thank God, not me. He wants us to survive. Well, that’s what we have to believe”. You have to believe it, and apparently that’s what you do believe it.
Okay, Joey, I didn’t think you were but I wanted to be sure. If you were, you would have had an altogether different response. So, let me ask you this. Why do you suppose so many of the fellows here have a difficult time with you? Why do you think that is? Are you here to fulfill some sort of personal mission? I mean, you’re not a military veteran or otherwise connected to the military, right?
That’s right 2-17 AirCav. I abandoned this site a while back, but on one of my computers I recently found TAH still in the “Favorites” list (I’d deleted it from the other machines), clicked on it for old time’s sake, seemed in the space of 3-4 months while I was away struggling with cancer the vitriol and shrill dogma had gotten even worse (as if that were even imaginable). Really kind of creeps me out. Having been raised in the 50’s on a diet of WWII movies with a father who served 4 years in the Pacific and participated in many of the major campaigns there, I still have trouble reconciling my sterling image of American military men and women with the angry, bitter, heartless, far-to-the-right-of-Attila-the-Hun people who inhabit this site. Just drop by from time to time to remind you here in the echo chamber that there are other Americans who see things a whole lot differently.
Just so you know, Joe, I was thinking of you when I posted this. Your irrational fear of Christianistas is hilarious and I want to draw it out of you every chance I get, ya old draft dodger, you.
Jonn,
You guys are big on principles. As far as the cross goes, it’s the principle of the thing.
And that principle is…?
Uhhh, Joe? You drop into a community in which you are not a part, among folks whose experiences you could not possibly understand, with folks who speak a language entirely different from yours and you seem to remain perplexed that you have no clue?
OK. Yes, you are welcome to drop in, but you are not welcome to express puzzlement and imply that the problem is ours. We know what we are talking about. You simply do not.
Whatever.
Seperation of church and state. The establishment clause and all that. And please don’t torture the meaning and logic of it – no gov’t involvement in religion, no matter how seemingly trivial (that’s how it always starts) .
Well OWB, I figure Jonn can block me and any other nonconformers from posting if he wants.
I only block excessively abusive people and to Joe’s credit, he’s not abusive, Being contrary is not a reason to be moderated here. “…no matter how seemingly trivial…” must include some Marines erecting a memorial to their fallen comrades. That is not government establishing an official religion nationwide.
My dog tags are stamped “no pref” and i never felt pressured by anyone in the military to associate myself with any religion, so your fear that soldiers reciting the Lord’s Prayer breaking down your door in the middle of the night and carting you off to be baptized against your will is unfounded. But, I’d read Dante’s Divine Comedy to get a preview of what’s in store if I were you.