Three Marines to be Court Martialed for Hazing (Updated)
The reason that the three Marines in question are facing a Court Martial is their actions lead to the sucide of a Marine. It was first reported back in July of this year.
Lance Cpl. Harry Lew, 21, died April 3 while supporting combat operations in Helmand province, Afghanistan.
He was assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment, 3rd Marine Division, III Marine Expeditionary Force, based out of Marine Corps Base Kaneohe Bay, Hawaii.
The military told the family Lew was shot in the head but would not release other details of his death. The incident is under investigation, officials said.
But then it get complicated when in September when it was reviled that he committed suicide. Also that his actions were driven by ongoing treatment from three Marines in his unit new unit with in Afghanistan. It seems that this is a second incident like this to have happened this year.
Jacoby, 21, is accused of kicking and punching Lew in the head. He is also charged with threatening Lew with harm. Johns, 26, and Orozco, 22, are also accused of dereliction for failing to supervise and ensure the welfare of Marines under their care.
Orozco, 22, allegedly ordered Lew “to do pushups, side planks, leg lifts with a sandbag, while wearing full personal protective equipment and pouring sand onto his face,” according to the cruelty and maltreatment charge against Orozco. He is also charged with assault for kicking Lew in the head and stomping on his back.
But then comes the part that I did a double take and cringe.
At a hearing last month, Marines from the same unit testified that the three accused punched and kicked Lew, forced him to do push-ups and other exercises in full combat gear, and poured sand in his face. The accused Marines argued that they were angry with Lew because he had fallen asleep on guard duty at a remote base in Afghanistan four times in 10 days, endangering the unit. After Lew’s death commanders said that the sleeping may have been a sign that he was suffering from depression or some other medical condition
After I had read that I had more questions then answers. Like a guy that falls asleep FOUR times? After two times then it is showing that what ever corrective actions are not working. Also after a repeating pattern why would you expect a different results without changing anything? Ok so three lost their cool/mind and went over board by hitting him and making threats. But in another link a few extra words change things even more.
The commanding officer of the platoon testified he didn’t think Jacoby was hazing Lew when he punched and kicked Lew’s body armor after the Marine was caught sleeping on watch again. “I think Lance Corporal Jacoby lost his temper,” said 1st Lt. Jameson Payne.
So that changes things from being randomly hit in the face or back uncovered to a knee jerk reaction. Now it brings into question what exactly was happening over there. Oh and ready for one more twist.
A House Armed Services hearing Friday on the status of suicide prevention programs in the military gave leaders from the Navy, Army, Air Force and Marine Corps a chance to answer lawmakers’ questions about identifying service members at risk and other steps they are taking to stop suicides. The military witnesses highlighted their efforts and described how services members often “dance with some dragons,” which was how Marine Lt. Gen. Robert Milstead Jr., put it.
Toward the end of the hour-long session, California Rep. Judy Chu talked about the life and death of Lew.
He was her nephew.
This will get ugly.
UPDATE: Here is a document related to this issue brought to our attention by Dunlop (post number 38).
Category: Terror War
YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
Sorry, I just had to get this out.
I wonder, what is the correct course of action to take with a sentry who has fallen asleep FOUR TIMES?
Physical violence probably wasn’t the answer. But court martial? Is it possible that these Marines were frustrated because he wasn’t being court martialed?
And then, of course, we find out that his falling asleep wasn’t really his fault. Because he was depressed. Stop me if you’ve heard this one.
You’re right, Ben. It’s the samo-samo bull manure. Kinda like the Clarence Thomas rerun being done on Herman Cain.
Spork:
Yeah it will – being a family member of a Congressho guarantees it. Complete with weeping and wailing, histrionics and drama. Eg: “How could you DO that to that poor child??!”
It sounds to me like those Marines did nothing wrong. In fact, keeping it in squad kept it out of his 201 so he had a chance to recover. That’s how I see it with the current information.
He endangered every swinging Richard around him. Sleeping on guard duty, in a freakin’ war zone. Jesus …
of course it will get ugly. They are going to look for someone to blame in this. The dude was a major fuck-up if he fell asleep on guard FOUR FUCKING TIMES! the question really should have been how did his NCOs keep their cool for so long when this jackass put everyone at risk.
making him do push-ups in full kit? no big deal. This is called CORRECTIVE TRAINING. The kicking him in the head and sides, if he was asleep at the time they did it, its actually understandable.
This is going to turn into another PC witch hunt, which is going to do its very best to de-ball the ground forces.
I know that some people are going to come here and ask: “Well geez, what’s the big deal about falling asleep on sentry duty?”
Hmmm…he could have gotten his whole unit killed?
But to some people it’s more important that he killed himself.
Again, pushups in full gear with sand being kicked in the face. That’s the big deal here? Sounds like basic training to me, and I didn’t even go through Marine Corps basic. I was an army pogue.
Okay, so they shouldn’t have kicked him. I suppose. I don’t think that they would have done that if they had known that he was going to kill himself. But now everyone is going to judge these people with their 20/20 hindsight and condemn them.
Here’s what should have happened–he should have been court martialed after the first incident of falling asleep on sentry duty. Then there wouldn’t have been a second, third, or fourth incident. He endangered his own unit, his brothers. He’s a shameful, undisciplined, sorry excuse for a Marine.
The main thing that I want to bring up is corrective training/actions only works if the person understands what they needs to be fixed. Also that even though that this is a Army Creed that this part should be remembered by all NCOs.
I will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal safety.
Or the Marine NCO Creed
I will strive to be patient, understanding, just, and firm. I will commend the deserving and encourage the wayward.
Because when does it cross the line between legit punishment and taking personal pleasure or talking out personal frustration.
>YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
I was thinking the same lines of “did you order the code red?”
This kind of blame the bully for suicide is the new thinking.. I am sorry, but if someone commits suicide they have more problems than a bully.
I have no love for bullies, but A LOT of people get bullied and don’t take an extreme measure like suicide. They roll with the punches and figure a way to make them stronger..People don’t want to put the blame squarely on the shoulders of the person committing suicide, but it is. They made that choice, and it is a selfish one.
Why did they still have this guy on Sentry duty if he had a problem staying awake? Is sentry duty the shit job you get if you fuck up and they didn’t have a worse detail for him? If he’s proven that he is untrustworthy to keep guard, why did they post him time and time again?
The NCOs showed very poor leadership skills in the way they handled this problem. Lew was letdown just as much as he letdown the men around him.
“Lew was letdown just as much as he letdown the men around him.”
You’ve got to effing kidding me.
Lew fell asleep on sentry duty four times. His depression is not an excuse. That means there were four separate occasions when flea-bitten Talibanis could have walked in and killed everybody while Lew sawed logs.
What was Lew’s big let down? They kept making him do his duty even though he blew it off all the time?
He should have been court martialed the first time. I’ve already said that. But there was no equivalency of let downs. He was a pisspoor Marine and other Marines who didn’t want to die because of his lack of discipline kicked him and made him do pushups. Later on he took his own life and now HE’S THE VICTIM.
Bullshit. You can’t let a guy off guard duty because he can’t stay awake. Most units in remote outposts, Patrol Bases, Battle Positions don’t have the man power to let a dude off like that. Trust me higher does not have the time to simply court martial and kick some guy out for falling asleep on post.
Do five minutes of research about Kunar Province about how many patrol bases, COPs, and OPs etc have gotten overrun.
I’m glad that shitbird killed himself. Nephew of some politician or not. He could of gotten people killed
It might be in bad taste, but is anyone getting Full Metal Jacket vibes out of this story?
I’ve heard that Marine basic isn’t as rough as it used to be. If true, I wonder if he wouldn’t have been drummed out in an earlier day and age. Either way, there’s more going on here than what’s being reported.
@9 He was the victim, as much as the Marine’s who’s lives he put in danger by falling asleep were victims. To be clear I’m not excusing his sleeping or suicide. There is failure on both sides of the fence here and, and no singular person can take all the blame. Easy, no lives on the line, example: If I ran a coffee shop and I had a guy who was good enough to do everything, but if I put him on the register he fucked up, I wouldn’t put the guy on the register.
You’re right, he should have been court martialed and removed from duty, but he wasn’t so whoever was supposed to watch for failures and start the procedures of that *coughNCOSANDOFFICERScough* weren’t on top of their game. By failing to handle this in a way you admit it should have been handled, the people in charge fucked up just as much as Lew fucked up by failing in his duty to guard his resting brothers.
Ben
But after the second time it should have been obvious that this person was not trust worthy to do his job. But a leader should manage the people below you. If a person proves to not be able to do his job like this for the safety of others that person needed to be fired or relieved of their duties.
By allowing this person to continue his duties with his past performance that he knew that there was a reasonable chance on this happening again.
Lets try this one.
Say that nothing happened the three times and there was a attack on the fourth. Lets just say for the argument that it is found that that if was known that Lew fell asleep on duty previously and allowed to remain at his duties? I am willing to put money on who would get the blame for the those killed and wounded in the attack.
@10 You’re telling me the only way to solve this problem was to stick him back in a job he already failed at? I very very seriously doubt this was the only Marine on hand who could stand guard duty or they would all be defenseless. If that is true, then not only did the immediate leadership fail spectacularly by placing such a danger to guard their men, the higher ups failed by not sending enough men in the first place.
It wasn’t murder, those guys were most likely not setting out to get him to kill him self, but they messed up by escalating the situation instead of defusing it.
@11 has it right, we don’t know everything and we can’t assume anything until we get more facts. As pointed out in the OP, depending on which article you read could slant your view on this in several ways.
FlyingCowOfDoom:
I agree with everything you’re saying except for one thing…
When you said that the leadership let down poor Lew just as much as he let down the unit.
Now, I can see that putting him out there on sentry duty was a hazard. He had shown that on four separate occasions. By putting him out there again, they were letting down the rest of the unit, not poor Rip Van Winkle. There’s no reciprocal letting down here.
And if it’s like Dirty Mick says, and there’s just no way he can be court martialed in such a remote region, then it’s a problem that has to be solved in house. They obviously didn’t “solve” it, but I don’t think that their behavior was terribly out of line.
I meant to address those comments to FlyingCowofDoom and Sporkmaster.
I understand that, but without the full details about the base and the number of people there it is hard to say what would have been the right way to handle it.
I have a few ideas like have him explain to the men on post why the “Died” due to his actions. Make him fully understand that when your actions or inaction affect people to this level that “would have, should have” fall on deaf ears and hardened hearts.
There are some more but again that all depends on what situation they were in.
I don’t know what was actually going on with this guy. Was he medically evaluated after a few incidents? Was sleeping on duty his only issue or was he an all-round screw up? Would you sleep knowing this guy was on watch? I wouldn’t. Would that alone lead me to take some serious corrective action? You bet. As for the corrective actions reportedly taken, they are hardly worth a mention. I recall–and never will forget–being whomped repeatedly with a clearing rod on the firing line in BT. My crime? Stupidity. I emptied a mag in a single pull when I was supposed to be practicing 3-round bursts. Yes, it left a mark–or two or three. The corrective action worked.
I am sorry the Marine did himself. I am glad no other Marines died because of him. I agree this will get ugly.
This is not an isolated incident. Others are doing the same.
It is a failure of leadership.
Damn, my link didn’t go through. http://www.stripes.com/news/special-reports/suicide-in-the-military/maltreated-and-hazed-one-soldier-is-driven-to-take-his-own-life-1.145941
I used to make my Marines Brush their teeth at the toughest hour of the watch or whenever they felt tired. However some Watch Tower raids with fellow NCO’s were indeed in order and DID work for some.
I cannot believe that I am agreeing with someone calling himself “The Flying Cow of Doom”.
Something else doesn’t seem right. Too many unknown variables in what is being reported. According to the links, IF you piece them together, he committed suicide by shooting himself in the head with a machine gun whilst sitting in a foxhole, unless I read the articles wrong.
I have more thoughts on this matter which I can’t seem to formulate properly, but seeing that it is 4AM, I should probably try to sleep a bit.
This whole treat the joe nice thing is way out of control. I left active duty a little over 2 years ago as a SSG (E-6) and we were barely allowed to yell at a joe without facing repercussions. I understand that respect works both ways and that beating a joe isnt really the right answer but I can definitely understand the anger and frustration with a young man who didnt care enough about his fellow Marines to either A) say hey I have an issue and need some help or B) man up and find a way to stay awake. Saying that these Marines were some how responsible for the choices this young Marine made is ridiculous.
I cant help but wonder if we as a society are failing these young men and women. It seems to me that we are raising a bunch of children who do not know how to adequately respond to criticism and whom are not able to deal with a world in which not everyone is willing to hold their hands to get them through their day.
@23. Are you exaggerating or has the service become THAT sissified?
@ 24: Dead serious. If a troop feels that you arent treating him/her the way they feel they should be treated they can and will go to EO,IG,JAG,the CoC or whoever they think will listen to their crying. We were no longer allowed to smoke a joe as of I think about 2008 in my unit. Dunno about the rest of the Army but from my fellow NCOs that I still talk to, it’s getting to be like that Army wide.
I don’t think it’s that far off the mark. Hell, on my last boat over a decade ago, God forbid you ever raised your voice to someone, even when they were a fuckup. But a few years before that, we had one of those shitbags. Set back in Submarine School FOUR TIMES before he got to the boat. Dumber than a bag of hammers. Used to go and operate equipment he wasn’t qualified on, “just to see what it would do,” in one case cutting out cooling water to the propulsion lube oil coolers when the ERLL watch was in another bay. When ERLL watch saw this kid operating the valve, he literally chased him out with a wrench and almost got written up for it. The shitbag went to mast, but it was dismissed. Went to mast several other times. Fell asleep CONSTANTLY on watch underway. Finally, after being written up for a FOURTH time and being told he would likely be tossed off the boat, he was standing topside watch. Tells the pier sentry to go take a forward draft, he walked behind the sail, pulled out his .45, and blew his brains out. He was 19 years old. There was a definite split amongst the crew. Some felt bad that the kid had taken so much shit from everybody and was in a situation where he was clearly over his head. Some felt relieved that this guy was no longer in a position to kill us all (a very real possibility if one fucks up at the wrong time.) And amazingly enough, a significant portion of the crew held BOTH views. One view that was nearly universal was the question, “If the command knew this guy was such a fuckup and a danger, why was he around as long as he was?” So yeah, Lew should have been busted back the second time this happened, and keeping this guy around was only going to become a bigger problem as time went on. But to blame these guys for his suicide is a load of horseshit. That being… Read more »
That’s light years from my experience. It’s not that we didn’t have some royal screw-ups. It’s that those sorts of problems were addressed internally and personally. If there was a complaint department, it was a well kept secret.
Sorry. I was responding to ARoberts @25.
@8: Yep. The line that stuck out for that is thsi:
“After Lew’s death commanders said that the sleeping may have been a sign that he was suffering from depression or some other medical condition”
I think they should have found that out BEFORE any of this other stuff took place. Now it will never be known. Although it’s very difficult to second guess them, because none of us were there, it does seem that other solutions could have been tried and senior NCOs should have stepped in sooner.
That’s just my opinion.
@26. “And amazingly enough, a significant portion of the crew held BOTH views.”
That’s exactly what we have in these comments. It’s a mix of sympathy for the poor SOB, an understanding of how his fellow Marines were at great risk, and frustration that those who should have reacted differently to the situation, just didn’t.
@27: In my unit, they sent the fuck ups to my room. I don’t know why, but I think it had to do with an incident after returning from a mission when we had an inspection and the room and my gear was squared away and the senior guy in the room didn’t have his shit together (I was an E-2 at the time and he was an E-4). After he left, and as time went on, the “problem children” were sent to my room as a last chance to get squared away before being jettisoned. Sometimes it was challenging and some didn’t make it, but others did get the hint and became good soldiers.
Being kicked in your sapi’s does not hurt, you’re wearing sapi’s. Kid sounds like a piece of shit, and these Marines don’t deserve what’s coming at them. But of course nobody outside of the Marine Corps is going to see it that way, and this aunt of his is going to ruin three good Marines because of it.
I remember in my first duty station (1st ID) the NCO’s had connex (Sea crates) counseling. If you screwed up, they took you out there and bounced you around a little bit, till you wised up. Nothing more was said.
20 years later as an E7, I couldn’t even hand out extra duty without loads of paperwork. Too many MBA’s running the Army as far as I was concerned.
Jerry: We used to call it “wall to wall counseling”.
There are many leadership styles and means of corrective training, but that practiced by the first-line leadership and peers of this kid seems excessive based on the report.
THAT SAID…it is likely overplayed in the report. I agree with the statements above that physical contact to wake up a sleeping guard is not too over the top. Nor is a healthy smoke session–so long as it is carried out properly. I’ve witnessed immature leaders smoke a kid for hours without reinforcing what it is they are trying to correct. I’ve also seen gentle hands mete out a two-way verbal counseling session that turned a Soldier 180 degrees. My leadership style has always been more toward the latter, though physical punishment definitely has a place.
The fact that the kid fell asleep four times while on guard indicates a problem. As a lowly Army SSG, I would rather take a shift myself and work my squad a little longer than risk having such a person compromise our safety.
Peer “encouragement” (read wall-to-wall counseling) only goes so far. First incident he should have been verbally counseled while enduring a little corrective training. For something of this nature, a written counseling might not be too much as it would help prove a pattern of misconduct. Second, written up and assessed by an NCO at the platoon or company level. Worst case scenario, he should have been sent to the rear to do some menial job that doesn’t risk his fellow Marines. If he was allowed a third time, UCMJ should be kicked in and Captain’s mast (or whatever the Marines call it) should have occurred. Given the fact it occurred in a combat theater, though, UCMJ wouldn’t be out of the question for the second instance.
#35. You hit the nail on the head. Every soldier is different, and responds to different motivation. It’s up to the leader to ferret out motivates them and apply it in judicious amounts. For some it’s about team, for others in individual accomplishment. Each person is different.
I have to admit though that sleeping on guard duty in a war zone is one of the worst things you can do. The fact that he did it 4 times tells me he should have been relieved of his post, counseled, and checked out if there was an underlying mental or physical condition.
Old Trooper
The reason for the paper trail is that if you want to kick someone out for disciplinary actions it has to be on paper. Because if it is not documented it did not happen.
http://timemilitary.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/lew-rpt.pdf
“Every soldier is different, and responds to different motivation.” I suppose that’s where differences are to be found between yesterday’s and today’s approach to soldiering. My hitch was characterized by the one size fits all approach and there was no Army of one. It was get with the program and fall in line or suffer the consequences. I’m not starting an argument between the black boots and today’s soldiers but I do have my preference.
Is this problem a function of training, resource, or discipline?
As our military returns to barracks/port – it’s probably time to review the legal and working definitions of Discipline. We know what works, what doesn’t work, and that there are folks out there who are simply unfit for any position requiring responsibility and self-discipline.
What is being taught at NCOES, and what is being permitted in the units (informal training)? Before he left basic training, LCpl Lew knew his 11 GO – and sleeping on guard duty usually isn’t among them.
Rule of thumb: 3 strikes works in baseball, and in disciplining a joe. 2 strikes for the Section Chief, 1 for Smoke (or Gunny), then it’s off to see 1SG and the BC for reduction in free time, money, and rank. And if joe was a spectacular clusterf*ck, a transfer to the Battalion HHB for special attention from the CSM for a few days.
The flip side is harsh: LCpl Lew made a choice, and chose poorly. In light of Lew’s decision, and the actions of the other Marines, DOD as a whole will be saddled with inhumane regulations that will undermine good order and discipline.
Once it became obvious that Lew wasn’t going to pull his own weight no matter what (either the 2nd or the 3rd time), he needed to be sent to the rear for a court-martial.
That nobody in leadership was willing to bite the bullet shows that my Marine Corps has some serious problems.
The phrase “Can’t smoke a quitter” comes to mind.
An interesting aside – did anyone else notice that Lew’s religion is listed as Atheist in his individual record?
I guess I’m one of those in both camps. Should he have been smoked for the first 2 infractions of falling asleep on guard duty? Yep. It’s not only his life that was at risk, but everyone else because he failed his duty and a little positive reinforcement wouldn’t be out of line. Should they have continued the same treatment after the third go? I believe that’s when senior NCOs should have stepped in and taken control of the situation and jettisoned his ass. He was a danger to the mission, period. No need to have someone you can’t depend on in the area, especially when lives are at stake.
Did they not do that because of who his auntie is? I don’t know. Either way, there was a leadership failure.
I don’t give a flying fuck if they shoved a plastic bottle up his ass. At the end of the day he shot himself – nobody else pulled that trigger and nobody else is responsible for his death but him. It may be an insensitive view, but having been on the receiving end of insane amounts of bullying (if you can even call it that in this situation), there is always an option and he chose to end his own life.
Bobo–noticed it, but didn’t think it relevant.
The fact that he was still being “sarcastic” right up to the end, THAT I noticed.
I am sorry for the family of this obviously distressed Marine, but the question to be asked is, which is a worse story:
“Depressed Marine who fell asleep at his post 4 times kills self”
or
“15 Marines were killed and 25 more were wounded after a Taliban suicide bomb squad slipped past an outpost sentry with a prior history of sleeping at his post.”
He fell asleep on his “first day with the new squad”, then “was caught sleeping again, this time while on post
He fell asleep on his “first day with the new squad”, then “was caught sleeping again, this time while on post out on an ambush patrol” a few days later? Those are quotes from the investigation.
Perhaps his peers decided to do their own “counseling”? And Lew may have suffered from an undiagnosed condition, like depression, but “hid all of his symptoms from his fellow Marines except for his inability to stay awake”? I’d say he did a pretty good job of hiding his symptoms, if he had any.
And,the NCIS agents did not heed Article 31, so what do they have, without the involuntary statements taken in violation of Article 31?
Sorry for the inadvertent post at #48, and the mis-spell in my name.