Navy to change training in 2018
According to the Navy Times, the US Navy is going to shorten training time at their formal schooling for new sailors;
The Navy is implementing a new rating structure that has redrawn many traditional community boundaries. The intent is to soon make it possible for sailors to cross train — and eventually advance — in jobs beyond their own traditional ratings.
At the same time, the Navy will continue to shorten the length of initial accession training, which has traditionally lasted up to two years. Instead, training will include a far shorter stint following boot camp that will be whittled down to only what new sailors need to succeed at their first duty assignment, getting them to the fleet sooner.
I guess their new strategy designed to cause collisions at sea requires less formal training.
Category: Navy
Lemme see. Boot camp was 10 weeks long. “A” school was from mid-June to mid-October.
Seems to me that this is just the Navy doing a pull back, regroup and strike again method, which means that they shouldn’t have ditched it in the first place (if that’s what they did).
Is this “revamp” a response to the Carter/Mabus keruffles?
What freaking idiot is running this show? There is no rating in boot camp, you get a white, red, or green SR rate stripe..NO JOB! and after boot camp, 2 years training before the fleet? Horseshyt, I went to the fleet (air craft carrier) right out of boot camp….these a.h.s are smoking something!! imo
Sorry, desert, get over yourself. I was a designated striker in boot camp, with a little PH patch sitting on the top of my green AA stripes, so that made me a PHAA and a few weeks later, a PHAN.
Disasters looming.
The best training in the world used to be at Service School Command.
I guess ppt training has won.
Another program brought about by some “good idea fairy” at Big Navy or NETC.
And this is going to fix the problems with ships running aground how?
Question for the readers of TAH – would you want a Bosun’s Mate in the OR helping with your surgery with a minimum amount of training?
“Sorry I’m late to assist with this surgery, I was heaving line at Sea and Anchor Detail. Don’t worry, I scrubbed up as best as I could.”
Hell no!
I have reservations about a Bosun’ splicing a line or standing forward Watch in today’s Navy.
Please don’t give him a scalpel.
Hack never trusted the judgment of a Corpsman that smoked, nor a Corpsman who ever received Captain’s Mast.
Those were the only green side Docs I trusted.
cheap bastards were always bumming smokes though.
You notice its the grunts that ran the ship aground, not the frigging officer running the ship…more bullshyt pass the buck!!
Um, desert, there are NO grunts on ships, unless they are Marines. Personnel on ships are called SAILORS.
Now go write that in your notebook 50 times.
Study all the PowerPoint you want, you still won’t know squat until you actually do the task. We didn’t use mannequins for 99% of our skills when I was learning to be a Doc, we learned on each other. Simulation and lecture is all well and good, but you have to do it to be able to really learn HOW you do it.
Cross train. I was sort of talked out of being transferred at the start of the 1960’s era Swift boats. So for years, I wondered how my MM rate would fit into the Boats and then a number of months ago, USNI Proceedings had an article about Officer LEADERSHIP on the boats and that everyone was crossed trained, so I now know how it worked. Strangely the article was written right after the US Navy Patrol boats were pulled over by the Iranian’s. The author claimed that the article had nothing to do with the Navy crews surrendering to the Iranians. Yea Right.
Yeh Officer leadership on the boats…like the FAIRY KERRY!!
They make it sound like everyone is going through two years of initial entry training.
If those freaks of nature want to improve ANYTHING, ask the enlisted of the fleet what will improve things…not some a.h. officer behind a desk!!
Someone wee in your Cheerios this morning, desert?
So many seaman recruits!
When I was in a deploying squadron we were in a constant state of training. Achieving and maintaining Aircrew Quals, annual NATOPS testing, Wing required ground schools, and the big one, the pre-deployment Operational Readiness Exam, filled up an entire year. On deployment we didn’t have a lot of time for training, we were too busy flying missions. So how is Big Navy going to shoehorn MORE training into that schedule?
Change is the illusion of progress.
“What’s this button do?”
Where’s the Good Idea Fairyswatter or the Get-A-Clue Bat?
This “easy to cross train” idea is part of that shit-canned program that Mabus blamed on the outgoing MCPON. It should be scrubbed immediately.
The idea to me boils down to sacrificing theoretical subject knowledge for faster acquisition of operational experience.
This works for everyday routine ops and will provide an initial influx of fresh meat to certain ratings in the fleet. But when equipment breaks due to battle damage or just plain fatigue, the theoretical knowledge is vital for troubleshooting and fixing the problem.
The Navy doesn’t need button pushers that only know to “hit the green button after this gauge hits 100” because that rate looks good on a civvies’ resume. It needs folks that can safely keep systems operational.
As an Army automotive repairman I found the theoretical easier to comprehend after a few months of hands on experience in a division maintenance unit that afforded lots of training opportunities. Also got to learn a lot about cause and effect before getting to go to two USAREUR level schools.
It they’ll still get their LGBQT Diversity Training, won’t they?
That’ll be a lot more hands on after the transexuals hit the fleet(snort).
My only knowledge of Navy boot camp and PT is that they mostly threw Frisbees around and not many handled a firearms after Basic/A-School. This is from my cousin who served as a Gunner’s Mate and my daughter who is an Army Combat Medic and watched the Sailors train at Ft. Sam Houston when she was in AIT. Cousin served about 10 years ago. Daughter is in her 3rd year.
Is this just shit talking or for you that were in the Navy or is it close to the truth?
I can’t imagine a Corpsman spending any less time than the other branch medics. I thought they are well known for their skills.
I think the Army has gone in the shitter since I was in 26 years ago and firmly believe all 4 branches should go thru the Marine Corps boot camp.
The Army is now bringing Drill Sergeants into AIT – not sure if they were dropped from OSUT – due to lack of discipline, etc.
Bringing drill sergeants into AIT? When did they leave? I didn’t go OSUT; Basic was Ft. Jackson and AIT was Ft. Lee, but still with drills.
They got rid of the AIT DSs in the mid/late 2000s to better simulate the environment of an actual unit. They are bringing them back now because there have been complaints about lack of discipline and respect.
I don’t think the Army has gone in the shitter at all.
In the last 26 years the Army has carried America’s foreign policy on its back with no complaint. It has fought and won under incredibly austerity conditions against enemies determined to destroy it, and done so on a shoestring budget- if the political leaders decide to cede those hard won victories, that is up to the American people to change.
USMC boot camp is awesome- for Marines. There is a lot to admire about it and the Marine Corps but the Army makes Soldiers- and does a pretty good job of it.
READ your Army history…..not a hell of a lot there to be proud of imho
Not sure what history you’re reading.
At least the Army’s history isn’t filled with made up shit
I ‘spect his “history” is more “fairytale”, O-4E.
FWIW, when my son went through Basic (2008 or 2009, after a few years in college and the workforce) he felt that the kids fresh out of high school probably were not up to the demands it makes.
He is personally motivated as well, and so has done well so far. Nothing makes me think that the Army has fallen in the slit latrine as far as that goes. YMMV
Here’s the issue I have with your train of thought
Our Prussian style method of training recruits is dated (IMHO)
Drill Sergeants/Instructors are great and all but do we have NCOs screaming at folks like blabbering idiots at any point after basic training / boot camp?
No. Nor should we. So why do we even do it to begin with?
Are there not better ways to enforce discipline and standards than some DS/DI screaming like he’s about to stroke out? Or is it simply a matter of “this is the way we’ve always done it”?
If you have a better way to teach young recruits that there are times in the military that a superior will tell you “Jump,” and that no matter how ridiculous it may appear, jumping, right now, is your only option, then let’s hear it. I don’t particularly like the DS/DI optic you describe either, but I can’t come up with a more effective/efficient way to teach a kid that following your leader sometimes means that there is no time at the moment to get into the whys and wherefores of the order to do/not do something.
The best way to train that is as a part of a team in tough, realistic training that is conducted to the actual performance standard.
Discipline doesn’t mean mindless instantaneous reaction to orders.
Someone sent me this video a few years ago to prove to me that USMC Boot Camp was tougher than Royal Marine Commando officer training: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Ae-eGOgxI. Those young officers began learning that they were responsible for their own kit the moment they got off the train. Those US Marines learned that they better not do anything without someone yelling at them
This is another great one: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v= DI is resorting to what he thinks gets results. The only Result is that he looks like an idiot. Do DIs normally hit themselves in the head with their clipboard when they are frustrated? He’s not teaching anything but poor leadership and an inability to adapt.
Yeah I can name several militaries that develop some damn solid Recruits without resorting to the borderline childish nonsense displayed by Army and Marine DS/DIs
Good. Here’s hoping that somebody in the Navy also knows about those techniques.
Got no quarrel with improving things as more information becomes available. Seems like back in the dark ages when some of us were schooled, that was rather the purpose of scientific inquiry.
Wanna know what’s dated? Officers and the idea that six weeks of dumbshit and a community college diploma makes you a leader. That’s dated.
We should transition to a Mustang only advancement system and keep all the screaming and double the amount of throwing shit.
I’m a Mustang (served 9 years enlisted out of 26), I don’t have a community college diploma and I had substantially longer than 6 weeks of training prior to commissioning
But yeah. I think the way we select and train Officers is as outdated as our methods to train Recruits.
I’d start by getting rid of the service academies (in their current form) if I were king for day of that gives you any indication on where I stand.
I had a pretty good inclination as to where you stand. I was 99.44% confident you wouldn’t take my comment as an insult.
I think the entire 0 and E system is fundamentally broken and I agree about the academies.
With the exception of dir3ct commissions, all officers get more than six weeks of training prior to commissioning. Up9n commissioning, all officers (again, except for direct commissions)get several weeks of Basic Officer Leader training followed by all sorts of specialized training.
I’ve been around all sorts of officers- College Op OCS, traditional OCS, ROTC, Academ6, and direct commission. There are a few bad ones out there, but each path has its merits and the system works. Mattis was an ROTC grad.
Don’t confuse the Hospital Corps with Fleet Navy. They are different animals. The Hospital Corps has it’s own problems but this will have little impact on them. Worry about FC’s, OS’s, MM’s, CT’s, ST’s etc who run the gray floaty things. They are the ones being forced into wearing bad idea jeans.
Do you REALLY need entry level training to push buttons on a multi billion dollar floating / submerged nuclear warfighting platform? Fuck it, just show’em where the on off switch is dude.
I went to GM A School in 00, and 9/10s of it was circuitry and the other 1/10th was small arms which is the only thing I utilized in my career. I just came back in as an IS and just went through A School and half of it was BS tests that literally you will never utilize. The other half was briefings, which is core to the IS rating. I can kind of see Big Navys argument here (yikes!). There’s too much one size fits all strategy and it’s inefficient and may even be detrimental to young sailors development. I just believe that A Schools need to be reformed in general, I mean I just graduated IS A and the curriculum is years behind. I mean come on.
Thanks for the input and perspective. Great discussion. I appreciate the information so I don’t stick my foot in my mouth. Not enough room in there already. Certainly there are DS/DI/TI’s that go overboard and/or should not have became cadre in the first place. As NCO’s, they are still responsible for the well being of their recruits. To this day, one of the few most influential people in my life was my head Drill SGT in OSUT. I will never forget what he taught me and how instrumental he was in my transition into adulthood and personal responsibility. Over the years I have re-examined and passed on to others, things may suck, might not make any sense or seem cruel but there is a method to the madness and as many of our mothers told us, you don’t have to like it but you still have to do it. How I trained and what I learned in OSUT prepared me for how I fought in war, how I survived in harsh conditions and how I was able to mentally and physically handle whatever was thrown at me. The enemy doesn’t give a shit about your feelings or if you are sick and having shit come out both ends in the middle of a battle. They don’t care if you’re cold or about to pass out from heat stroke. There is no time out, no breaks and often, very little or no sleep at all. As to the Army’s readiness, our military is still the best but our warriors have been coddled. Yes, we have developed better ways of doing stuff and getting stuff done. Every generation of warriors owes their success to the generation before it. As to officers, my personal feeling is that they should have to be NCO’s first. There were more than a few butter bars that came fresh from OCS and were not just incompetent but a danger to themselves, others and the mission. There has to be a separation but I have a lot of respect for an officer that isn’t afraid to get dirty,… Read more »
And how many levels of schooling does the Navy have before one settles down and goes to work in your career field? Reading this it sounds like three, I think.
NONE! I went aboard ship, was an undesignated stryker and they put me in the boiler room…no school, no training….just a 130/140 degree boilerroom!!
Choose your rate, choose your fate.
2 years in the nuke pipeline is barely enough to determine if you’re not going to do bad/stupid shit when you hit the fleet.
What’s it gonna be now? “Okay, guys, all ya gotta know is keep the rock hot and covered.” See ya in six years!
While I fully understand the criticism here, it seems to me the Navy enlisted education system leaves a lot to be desired.
Maybe one of the Sailors on the board can fill us all in on the career training pipeline. My understanding is that after Recruit Training, most but not all sailors go to an A School of varying lengtht, designed to teach you your MOS skills. After that, some sailors go to a C School for more technical or specialized training on specific aspects of the job. The example I keep seeing is that all Aviation maintenance technicians go to one Common core A school followed by the C School for the specific aircraft they will work on.
After that, promotable sailors may attend a 3day non resident Petty Officer Selectee Course, a 3day non res PO1 selectee course, and a 3day non res CPO selectee course as they are selected for those career gates. Is that correct, or are there other courses in there?
https://usnwc.edu/naval-leadership-and-ethics-center/Non-Resident-Leadership-Courses,
That’s basically correct, but the length of schooling can vary widely based on NEC.
That being said, the school houses have long (at least ~20 years) that they’ve been of the, “pump versus filter” variety. Get as many warm live bodies to the fleet and they’ll learn there, so the theory went.
Problem is, you’d have kids who are E-5, fresh out of C-school, who still didn’t know shit about their specific gear, let alone their rating in general.
And worst of all, the Chief’s Mess is increasingly politicized, and consequently hamstrung, to motivate or shitcan the sub-par performers.
JMO. YMMV.
During my Joint assignment I was amazed at how little formal professional military education the Navy POs had. Contrast that pipeline to an Army NCO:
After Basic and AIT or OSUT, a new NCO goes to a one month resident Bsic Leader a course, a Staff Sergeant goes to an MOS specific Advanced Leader Course that is months long, and Sergeants First Class go to a Senior Leader Course, about 2mknths long. After that there is a First Sergeant and Sergeants Major Academy.
Along the way are all sorts of special skill and additional skill courses like Master Gunner, Ranger, etc., etc., etc.
Not sure about the Marines or Air Force, but I think they have a similar path.
No school, no promotion- of course, everything is waiverable, but the Army has been cracking down.
During my Joint assignment I was amazed at how little formal professional military education the Navy POs had. Contrast that pipeline to an Army NCO:
After Basic and AIT or OSUT, a new NCO goes to a one month resident Bsic Leader a course, a Staff Sergeant goes to an MOS specific Advanced Leader Course that is months long, and Sergeants First Class go to a Senior Leader Course, about 2mknths long. After that there is a First Sergeant and Sergeants Major Academy.
Along the way are all sorts of special skill and additional skill courses like Master Gunner, Ranger, etc., etc., etc.
Not sure about the Marines or Air Force, but I think they have a similar path.
No school, no promotion- of course, everything is waiverable, but the Army has been cracking down.
Oh, that.
Yeah, compared to the other services, we don’t get jack shit as far as leadership training goes.
I think I went to a 4-day leadership development course when I was an E-6. Whoop de freaking do.
I did three or four, ranging from a couple of days to two weeks. Mostly horse hockey. Your leadership capabilities came from your own leadership style plus whatever you learned in those plus whatever you picked up from everyone else.
So, I’ve never driven a ship (I do own a 30 year old ski boat), but I would think that the lack of formal PME would contribute to cronyism, complacency, and a lot of “that’s how we do things here” kind of stuff, which is always great until it isn’t.
In addition to the up to date technical, tactical, and leadership training, the beauty of recurring trips to the Mother Ship for Re-greening is that everyone is back on a level playing field for a few weeks.
Everyone has to pass PT/height/weight without their buddy in the training room pen I whipping it, everyone has to pass the same tests, and everyone gets their papers graded by someone who doesn’t really care if they are a big deal back at Hood or in Division.
Also, once you get past the E6 level, you are working with NCOs in the same broad functional area (Fires, Maneuver, etc),and at the 1SG and SGM level it is cross functional. You also have Joint and international students along the way.
To be sure, the Army has issues with our NCO PME, it it turns out some pretty good tactically and technically proficient leaders. A US Army oR USMC NCO (don’t know enough about Navy or Air Force to judge) could easily serve as a commissioned officer in most Armies of the world- would probably do better than most of them especially when it came to tactics and ethical leadership, in fact.
I think a large part of that is do to lifelong learning.
>due to<
Used in a sentence: My many typos are due to way too much Jameson’s and that Old Fashioned I had earlier.
I think the Navy should give this a chance. Army NCOs definitely learn leadership from the ground up- I’m sure Jonn can write a few books on that- but formal education has its place.
I think the Army need to go further- we need to get all of those courses accredited. An NCO should be able to combine PME credits with outside college to earn. BA/BS at some point along the way. It would be good for the Army and great for the NCO
And then it all gets changed to conform to college sensibilities, not produce leaders.
You might get some to accept them as-is, but “just tweak this…” is the wrong path.
Leadership, Management Education Training (LMET). Four days with building blocks and the finale was “12 O’Clock High.”
No, really.
My understanding is that sometime in the late 90s training command started getting scored based on the number of drops. At that point the strategy went “full pump.” I went through the pipeline in the early 80s when nukes and conventionals still went through Pipeline together up through A school. I got to clean the steam plant in GLAKES through BEEP, then got to learn to troubleshoot deep fat fryers and elevator logic in A school. These were actually useful when it came time for advancement exams.
My personal philosophy is NO PUMPS!
Training? You can overtrain until people are useless and stupid! My best petty officer boss was a 1st class by the name of Jim White, I was a 3rd class when he came aboard our squadron at Miramar, after awhile, if you had a question, he would tell you where to look and make you find the answer, it pissed me off..but as time went by, I was more and more proficient because I knew where to find the answers for anything, (I worked in the Captains office, officer records, classified material, aircraft accident reports etc), befor my discharge I made 2nd class and if I had, had one more year, could have made 1st class thanks to Jim White!
Sounds to me like some of the higher level echelon decision-makers are strap hangers from the last administration…bound and determined to destroy the Navy from within.
Someone needs to put a stop to this shit and identify the fuckwits who thought up this nonsense and tell them it’s time to retire.
AMEN!
Retirement via wood chipper.
Consumer: Hey! It would be great if that there Arabic linguist was a 3/3 when they leave DLI!
Navy: “Well, we only have the time to teach him to understand “My hovercraft is full of eels.” We’ll teach him the rest later.”
You would think 63 weeks was enough to learn a little more than THAT!
Did the cryppies go through with getting rid of Goodfellow? The plan some years back was to shift the “A” school training from there to the field. I was not in favor of that at all.
Yeah, they moved out of there. The CTIs go from DLI to the center of excellence to do the initial Goodbuddy type stuff.
64 weeks (they added one weeks to take care of intro to language studies)… enough for some folks to get to 2/2, some to get to 3/3, and some to bomb the whole thing ;-). Hopefully, the Navy will understand that you can’t just “give the basics” at DLI and expect them to get farther in the fleet.
As you can see by this PowerPoint presentation Admiral, by going to this shortened training we are saving money by the truckload.
(Me shouting from the back of the room) Yeah, now look behind you at the rising repair costs because outside contractors do the repairs because the shipboard crew doesn’t know how.
After reading this and digesting it if you will, I must wonder if Big Navy is as out and out insane as Big Army is. Their goals seem to be the same, destroying their organizations, or at least rendering them ineffective.