Why not a .22LR?
Want to start a gun fight? Just state on the Internet that the 9 millimeter is the best self-defense handgun round available and likely within seconds, most certainly within minutes, you’ll have a pack of .45ACP and .40S&W aficionados burying you in studies on one-shot stopping power, muzzle velocities, foot-pounds of energy on impact and bla, bla, bla. But there’s a curiosity which appears in almost all those studies and data tables to determine which ammo round is the best for personal defense, and that curiosity is the lowly .22 Long Rifle caliber.
There’s a very good reason that the .22LR is usually included in those studies even while being the smallest of the standard pistol rounds, and that is that it frequently outperforms other larger calibers like .25ACP and .32 calibers in both one-shot stopping effect and lethality and may equal even larger calibers. I’ve always wondered how that’s possible, yet federal statistics on gun homicides tend to support it. Skeptics would sneer, “That’s only because they’re so common!” to which I would respond, “Well, yeah, but they still kill those large numbers of folks.” Then I’d usually follow up with, “If you think a .22LR is just a pea-shooter, would you want to be shot with one? If someone pulls a .22LR on you, are you going to challenge them anyway because the gun isn’t a serious weapon in your opinion? Of course the answer is always no, and as it turns out I was onto something regarding the relatively high number of one-shot stops for the .22LR.
Writing in NRA’s Shooting Illustrated, Richard Mann explains in his article, “.22LR for Self Defense?” that a critical reason for any gun’s one-shot stopping power is psychological; by shooting the perp the first time, you have put him on unmistakable notice that you are armed with a gun and that continued advancement on his part means he is about to be shot again. At that critical moment, his brain is not calculating the caliber with which that is about to happen only that he does not want to be shot again and therefore, retreat is the preferred option. That explanation, coupled with the widespread ownership of the .22LR would appear to answer that long debated question.
As to the relatively high lethality data regarding the .22LR, Mann, as do others, attributes that to the ability to place follow up shots on target more easily and more rapidly due to lower recoil. With some .22LR pistols the recoil is so minor that the sights rarely leave the target during firing so that there is no necessity to reattain the sight picture as with larger caliber handguns. This will of course allow faster trigger pulling and more rounds fired accurately in a shorter time interval. Mann and friends tested this hypothesis and found it held; I was unable to find any data to support it but it does make sense.
Do not misunderstand me; I’m not advocating one caliber over another here. Of my several handguns, only one, a Ruger SR22, is a .22LR caliber which occasionally goes with me from the house. But the go-to guns in my cars and by my bed are all 9 millimeters loaded with personal defense ammo. However, for many women who need a smaller handgun and prefer it to have less “Kick,” a .22LR is a better choice than no gun at all. So, would I bet my life on a .22LR? You bet your life I would if it were the only gun available.
Category: Guns
A handgun is for fighting to a long gun.
A long gun is to fight your way to a belt-fed machine gun.
A machine gun is to fight to an armored vehicle with a main gun larger than 30mm.
That vehicle should give you enough time and space to get to a tactical nuke.
YMMV.
Roh-Dog,
I like the way you think!
And here ends the lesson on “Escalation of Force”. Class, please give Professor Roh-Dog an enthusiatic round of applause! Short, sweet, and to the point.
.22 calibre? Okay, so if two dimwits decide to try to hold me up on the backsteps of my apartment building in the spring of 1986, and the lead dimwit, WHOSE FACE IS STILL BURNED INTO MY BRAIN, YOU STUPID ASS, and my big mouth is the only weapon I have, and they run away because I walked toward them and yelled at them, does that mean my Big Mouth is a better caliber weapon than a Saturday Night Special?
I CAN STILL PICK YOU OUT OF A LINEUP, YOU IDIOTS, OR A COFFIN IF YOU DEAD.
It ain’t the size of the dog in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the dog.
They expected you to turn to limp noodles when they displayed the Scary Firearm. You didn’t, and they panicked.
Your mouth and stare are more powerful than a lot of firearms though, so you can’t count unless we start bringing up M-60s and M-240Bs and whatnot.
Are you SURE you’re not related to Mr (need to be respectful) Chuck Norris?
Yeh PH but we all know you have a 44 calibur mouth LOL 😉
First rule of a gunfight…have a gun!
Also, as one of my buddies used to say, shot is shot. You don’t hear too many stories that start “So I got shot this one time, and then…”
Better than a sharp stick or a rock . All handguns are defensive weapons ONLY ! They are meant to stop an aggressive action . Some stop it better . But as long as it goes bang and hurts , it’s worth carrying something .
As a recently retired LEO with 36 years of service , I strongly recommend all of you carry something .
LRRP@……….Amen!
Gunfight Rules: In a gunfight, the most important rule is ….. HAVE A GUN! Here is some shooting advice from various Concealed Carry Instructors. If you own a gun, you will appreciate these rules. If not, get one and learn how to use it…..then learn the rules: RULES: A — Guns have only two enemies: rust and politicians. B — It’s always better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. C — Cops carry guns to protect themselves, not you. D — Never let someone or something that threatens you get within 20 feet. E — Never say “I’ve got a gun”. If you need to use deadly force, the first sound they hear should be the safety clicking off. F — The average response time of a 911 call is 23 minutes; the response time of a .357 magnum is 1400 feet per second. G — The most important rule in a gunfight is: Always win. A gunfight is a deadly struggle. There is no such thing as a fair fight, so cheat if necessary. H — Make your attacker advance through a wall of bullets. You may get killed with your own gun, but he’ll have to beat you to death with it, ‘cause it will be empty. I — If you’re in a gun fight: If you’re not shooting, you should be loading. If you’re not loading, you should be moving. If you’re not moving, you’re dead. J — In a life and death situation, do something. It may be wrong, but do something! K — If you carry a gun, people may call you paranoid. Bullshit! If you have a gun, what do you have to be paranoid about? L — You can say ‘stop’ or any other word, but a large bore muzzle pointed at someone’s head is pretty much a universal language. M — Never leave an enemy behind. If you have to shoot, shoot to kill. If you end up in court, yours will be the only testimony. N — You cannot save the planet, but you may be able to… Read more »
“E” depends, I guess, on your firearm of choice having a safety that needs to be clicked off.
My handguns of choice will drop hammer, and use a heavy DA pull to impede a negligent discharge. The first sound a perp would hear from it is “BOOM!”.
I also like the saying “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.”
D – it is a given in training classes that if someone is seven yards away from you (21 feet) that you cannot draw and fire accurately before he can reach you.
Bill Jordan said about gunfighting “there is no second place winner.”
Doesn’t mean you’re just gonna stand there like a dumfukk. 🙂
That’s when your tactics include moving so that the attacker has to adapt to your actions.
that is absolutely true. At 21 feet away from you (7 yards), a knife wielding assailant can most likely stab you before you can fire an accurate kill shot. Most guys in good shape can cover 120 feet (40 yards) in only 4.4 to 5.0 seconds! When I worked for BRINKS and saw the
actual demonstration in training, my mind was made up. Take no chances when you are threatened! Also, the bullet vest will not help against a knife
I may add to this list; “No matter how trustworthy and intelligent he may seem to be, never loan your gun to a monkey”.
Truth.
AW1- Got that ape video a years ago or two and was hysterical after the ape went ape with the AK and all the terrs sitting there split. Funny
Yeah, that chimp was the smartest primate in the bunch.
Mark- I quess you wouldn’t want any “MONKEY Business” with the monkey monkeying around with the gun.
I stole this, I hope that’s OK, it’s a good list.
I put your moniker up with it on a page I write.
One of the stories told in my Sunday School class is of a fellow (I cannot remember if kin or friend) who told of shooting another guy with a .22 – “And he got mad!”
Of course these were country boys who picked cotton and hauled hay, so they may have more muscle mass to stop a .22 than your standard druggie punk.
On a more rational note: a .22LR FMJ or JHP can put quite a knock on someone. I think a good study would include the type of bullet used: lead, FMJ or JHP.
Of course, a .22S or .22L will not have the power of a .22LR
I do know that my father, who used a 1911 in WWII, but shot better with his captured Walther P38, preferred a Colt wheelgun in .22LR for his home defense weapon.
And regardless of the caliber of weapon, I always maintain that the secret of successful defense is location location location. Where the round impacts is, IMHO, more important than the size of the round doing the impacting.
A revolver is probably a better idea if you’re going .22 LR, or any rimfire. The lower bolt/slide thrust of an auto can be a problem if debris is present. I’ve never seen it but .22 LR isn’t a sealed case so humidity *could* effect powder burn rates.
Still, a .22 caliber is better than a 0.0 caliber.
Should have added that this was a SAA style wheelgun.
Still, in Dad’s hands it would have been lethal.
I bet, combat has a way of sharpening the skills. You fan that hammer quick enough and ‘wall of lead’ isn’t hyperbole.
Combat has a way of making all sorts of changes to one’s life. He was pretty easy-going and patient – but also put that P38 in the face of his no-account brother-in-law who was abusing his sister and told him, quietly, that if he came back Dad would kill him.
Dad would never fan a hammer. He believed in aimed fire. Rapidly aimed fire, true, but aimed fire.
A .22 round that actually hits the person is much more lethal that a 9mm that misses because the shooter flinches.
I knew a guy who could, under extreme physical/emotional stress–just finished intense cardio AND the range master setting off a string of firecrackers behind him, put a round into the target’s left and right eyes in less than two seconds.
Asked him where he learned to shoot like that, and he just smiled.
If needed RTF Now, a .22 in the hand beats a .45ACP in the gun safe every day.
I carried a LCR in .22LR but it was just not enough gun unless you can stick it in their ear.
Soooooo, I graduated to a LCR in .357 Magnum.
One round was enough to put .38 +P in it instead. Ouch!
Now I’m happy.
My hand still hurts though.
A S&W .357 sleeps in my night stand- it’s stoked with .38+P JHP because if you light off a .357 in a darkened room, everyone is blinded and deafened, and the drapes catch fire.
For .357Magnum I preferred the old Colt Python. Using either .38 Special or .357 Mag it was easy to handle.
For the lighter carry guns today, though, either of those is a bit hot. IMHO, YMMV.
It is a damn shame that Colt stopped producing the Python. 2d only to the Manhurin for most accurate production revolver ever produced. Also tough as they come.
A ‘new’ condition Python with case goes for several thousand $ last time I checked.
And a trigger that was smooth as glass. Loved that gun. But it belonged to my brother.
I always used a Smith model 19, didn’t like colt at all, to long waiting for the hammer to drop…like waiting for the other shoe to drop!
I’m a firm believer in .22 LR for my long guns, and teaching the kids to shoot that first takes away the intimidation factor when I introduce them to larger caliber weapons.
That being said, Mrs. SEA has her .38 wheelgun she’s used for years, and I typically pick between either my S&W 1911 or The Judge with PDX1 rounds.
But make no mistake, when TSHTF, I firmly believe a .22 rifle is going to quickly be the most useful. It’ll knock down small game without tearing it up, ammo is relatively easy to come by, store, and carry, and as mentioned, shot is shot.
My favorite caliber is 22.250. One can watch a milk jug full of water explode in the scope before you feel the recoil. It is my favorite ground hog eliminator and general long range scalpel. I have taught the wife and kid units that the Ruger 10-22 is for harassing and cover fire, it had the 100 round drums, the AR and the 30-30 is for intermediate and the shotgun and .45 ACP is for up close and personal. Also in the arsenal are a couple of field knives and machete’s.
Wasn’t it Col. North who once said “If I find out you shot me with a .32 I’m gonna be really pissed!”
I train retrievers for a hobby and I use a .22 wheel gun for shooting “blanks”.
In the truck is a ready supply of .22 JHP, just in case I can’t get to the 1911…..
CCI Stinger. A .22LR round that has been doing nasty things for over 40 years.
Also, boys and girls, remember that Ronaldus Maximus was almost taken out by a .22 round.
.22 LR is a great self defense weapon…for the incompetent and the lazy. Every justification for the use of .22 LR over a 9mm is completely based on a lack of proficiency and training with the larger caliber. The argument is almost always founded in recoil management. It is a valid argument but so is the solution to it. Proper training with a larger caliber. I have never come across someone that could not manage a 9mm caliber with training. Because of the shootout in Miami in 1986 there was a call for a more powerful handgun to be used by law enforcement. The 10mm caliber was tested. It was found the the recoil of that round and weapon was not manageable by the average officer. The solution was to keep the caliber and shorten the casing using less powder. The result was the .40, which is a 10mm with less gunpowder in the round. That is the strategy behind many calibers. If the recoil is too great…put less powder behind it and shorten the casing. In 9mm which is also .38 cal one can go in either direction. Add more powder behind a 9mm bullet and you get a .357 magnum. Take some power away and you get the .380 weapons. That kind of thing has been going on for many decades. The 30-06 was made shorter with less powder to come up with the 308/7.62 round. As I tell people these days, the 30-06 is just a .308 magnum. My point here is that there is too much emphasis on justifying using very small calibers with much less propellant because people do not want to properly train to use a larger weapon. There is of course a point of diminishing return. For example, it would be hard to justify training a 5′ tall 100 lb woman the virtues of carrying a 500 magnum. What has always concerned me is the unintended consequence of .22 LR being justified as a person defense weapon…THE LACK OF TRAINING If someone is going to carry a weapon they should get proper training,… Read more »
Dave,
Playing Devil’s Advocate – or more appropriate .22LR’s Advocate – here.
As I said above, my father, a WWII combat veteran with his CIB, who was neither lazy nor incompetent, preferred the .22LR for his home defense round.
He shot Expert with the 1911, shot better than that with the P38, was very good with a .30-06, had a bragging burst with a .30 machine gun in a battle of over a mile, and preferred the .22LR.
His stated reason? He did not have to worry about the .22LR going through his target and getting the neighbors down the street.
YMMV, but painting all advocates of the .22LR with one brush is unacceptable.
There are usually exceptions to every rule. My father-in-law who was a Navy Corpsman with two tours in RVN and an avid sportsman carried a .22 pistol in his truck. Its better than being completely unarmed.
The problem is your argument of over penetration has no merit when it comes to caliber. A .22LR has much greater penetration than a standard load .45 HP. If over penetration was the concern there are dozens of better choices. Exit wounds are common with the .22LR.
The notion that the .22 LR is not deadly at 300 yrds is a myth.
I was giving my father’s reason. And given that he had real-world experience with .45 and 9mm ball ammo and what it would do to a man (ball was what he available at the time – this was pre-personal defense rounds) his was not an uninformed opinion.
I prefer a JHP in any size, (.22LR, 9mm, .38 or .45) personally. The improvement in ammo choices makes a difference in end-game performance. But nothing matters if the shooter cannot put the rounds in the right location under stress.
Completely agree, the finest weapon in the world is useless if you cant put rounds on target.
My experience in general is that people who do not want to participate in any kind of formal training are the ones most likely to carry or depend on a .22 for protection.
I have one, it is what it is. If someone comes into my house with less than loving thoughts they will meet my Mossberg 500 with a pistol grip. I like the Winchester 3″ OO Buckshot, but thats just me. Its like shooting 18 .22 rounds at the same time.
One can never be too careful in todays world. Learning cover and concealment behind a screaming Soviet took some practice…but I think I got it down now.
Dunno, Dave. A .22 LR might be lethal at 300 yards, but its bigger problem would be accuracy. I remember shooting ground squirrels with both a .22 LR and a .222 and the difference was fairly dramatic. The .22 LR always seemed much less accurate at anything over 100 yards. Due, I’d imagine, to less muzzle velocity and a smaller grain bullet.
I had a former Teamguy turned FBI Agent (a 1 eyed former Teamguy – THAT former Teamguy) relate the classic joke: the die hard gunfighters at the FBI, after seeing their beloved 10mm gutted, began referring to the .40 S&W as the ‘Forty Slow & Weak’. 😉
LOL, the debate will go on forever. I carry a bunch of different weapons for various reasons.
I get shit from people for using Taurus as my choice of manufacturer.
The thought of having a Les Baer locked up in some evidence locker for years because I shot some crackhead who was holding .22LR disturbs me.
I figure my Taurus of any caliber will be worth about the same amount of money no matter how long is sits in some damp room with no maintenance for years on end.
Taurus…One of my .380s is a Taurus.
Good piece of gear. It was my BUG until I switched to a Glock43
I’ve got a 9x18mm SiG 230. Picked it up when working in S. America as a civilian where if you somehow were cleared to carry it couldn’t be a weapon that fired mil caliber.
I love that 230. Like an old-school Benz coupe of the .380ish crowd.
The Glock 43 is only slightly larger than the .380s I have, which I can completely cover with one hand, but packs a single stack 9mm…so now my primary carry and BUG are both Glock…I like the consistency.
My son’s Taurus wouldn’t reliably cycle with inexpensive ammo until he had a gunsmith work on it, so I have my reservations about recommending them to a newbie.
But they stay in business for a reason.
Haven’t owned any of their autos but have one of their .38 snubbies (which required a lot of work to get a decent trigger) and a .44 special that ALL my kids wan to inherit. Similar to the 5 round K frame S&W is building now and shoots like a dream.
my Taurus doesn’t even choke on CCIs. IME if your weapon doesn’t choke on those, it generally won’t choke on anything.
Even Russki ammo? Is the CCI worse than that in your experience?
My Sig handles it fine. Others get misfeeds/failure to cycle problems.
I don’t know how CCI compares to import ammo.
CCI is a good mid-price ammo – not hyper expensive and ‘way nicer than some of the cheap crap. One thing to remember about .22s – they have individual distinct preferences and when you have one, you should try to determine which brand is the best mix of reliability, accuracy and power for what you are doing. When you find that brand, stick to it. Used to shoot .22 Bullseye with a guy who had an old S&W 41 that shot the cheapest Federal crap in the world into tiny groups. Rest of us had to buy more expensive ammo and he laughed all the way to the trophies. Bastard.
S&W 41 is a great pistol!
I have one that is older than I am, my fathers competition Bullseye gun.
Sweet!
I should do a video on Taurus 9mm and .40. There are a couple of things that should be done/checked when you open the box. Easy to do and anyone can. 5 min of maintenance will ensure they operate flawlessly.
I have a Taurus .380 ACP. I broke mag release switch. I sent it back to the factory. Not only did they fix the release but enlarged the ejection port and polished the chamber. All for no cost. My Taurus Milliuem has been no failures to feed or eject. Joe
It’s not really a debate.
‘Guns, cars, and women: every dude has his own favorites and nobody is ever wrong.’
People laugh at my HiPoint 45 but its my truck gun for almost the exact same reason. It cost 150, shoots damn near any round (even steel case Tul-Ammo) and worst case scenario: I run out of ammo I will beat you to death with it.
THAT guy’s last name didn’t begin with the letter “N” did it?
I was friends with his best friend, MT, if your guy is who I’m thinking of.
MT & I were stationed at Little Creek at one time. Been many, many years ago now.
Lazy? On the other hand, no amount of training, proper or otherwise, will allow someone with major joint issues to shoot heavy-recoil pistols without damage.
If you are down to bone-on-bone, or have major not-really-repairable damage, a hot .22 might be your max tolerable round. The mid-to-low .38 becomes the highly-unpleasant “cannon” round.
Time respects no man.
The best research/’evidence’ I’ve read on the Civilian side of things was written by an L.A. County (?) Coroner, relaying what he’d seen re: handgun round effects ‘on his end’ (@ the morgue).
Unsurprisingly, the .45 ACP and other heavy or medium-heavy ‘hot’ (.357 magnum) rounds ‘won’, mainly due to their ability to penetrate the rib cage and reach/damage/destroy vital organs and/or major arteries.
As far as .22LR goes, it’s worth noting that the Ft. Hood terrorist shooter, using a 5.7 pistol (which I carried for a few months long ago) amazingly inflicted 100% fatalities with all of his rounds that hit the victim in the torso. I have had similar results with that pistol & mil ammunition.
In the end, know where to shoot and be able to hit where you intend to hit in the worst circumstances possible (low/poor lighting is especially important to train against). If you can’t reach a level in both of those activities (and hit location can fluctuate wildly based on target facing) ‘until you can’t get it wrong’, you need to reassess and reapply your training (routine).
Smaller caliber/lighter rounds of course require more precision unless you can generate a massive rate/volume of fire.
I’ve got a friend who is a German soldier. His grandfather was a Soldier (Wehrmacht) in WW2. He took a .30 carbine round in the back (shoulder blade) whilst fleeing a TOT barrage during the Ardennes offensive.
He was unaware of what hit him but the round plus shock from the barrage KOd him. He was captured and a US medic popped the carbine round out of his shoulder blade and jokingly showed it to all the US soldiers nearby.
When he got a translation of the joking banter it was words to the effect of ‘lucky SOB a Garand would have nearly taken his arm off at the shoulder.’
My dad, a retired WW II Army Major, joked that the M-1 Carbine was carried by officers so they could look like they were armed. He preferred the M-5 Grease gun while chasing Patton across Europe. It was easy to deploy from a jeep or Deuce and a half and had a pretty good rate of fire for close range interpersonal conflict resolution.
A counterpoint:
I had the opportunity, years ago, to speak with Jim Cirillo (legendarily of he NYPD Stakeout unit). He stated that he very much liked the M-1 Carbine. He said to me that that every single person he shot with one, fell where shot them.
I have also met serveral combat veterans who used and rather liked the carbine, stating that its reputation for ineffectiveness was overstated. They claimed it was superior in all ways to the pistol it replaced, and never failed in that usage.
.30 Carbine hollowpoints give it a bit more authority than GI Ball.
Mixed bag, indeed.
I’ve got an uncle who loves the M1 carbine.
He worked as an adviser in Vietnam, and the locals that he led/advised were often armed with the M1 so he had to know it inside and out.
We had an M3 Submachinegun kicking around when I was at Ban Me Thuot in RVN. It might have looked cool from a distance, but up close wasn’t all that impressive. Construction and finish were about what you would expect if the Tonka Toy Company had decided to build weapons. The sights were primitive to the point of it being pretty much spray and pray.
The Grease Gun wouldn’t have been my first choice as a primary weapon.
Perry,
Back in my 19E days we used to train with the M-3. I really enjoyed the M1911A1 and was fairly proficient when it came to hitting targets. I think among my fellow DATs the consensus was we are well and truly screwed if we were down to firing the M-3. I swear the thing should have also been called the chug gun.
Our 1SG definitely let us know that if were not using the weapons on our God-given, taxpayer paid for M60A1 or A3 he would rip our lungs out through our ass.
One of my son-in-laws was visiting last year and absolutely fell in love with the SR22.
Got one for him for his birthday.
He works overnights in the oilfield and carries it with him as his EDC.
I could be OK with a .22LR as a defense round given that my .22 pistol and I have been together for over 40 years, done a lot of competition rounds, and I have 7 magazines. BUT if I have a heavier caliber available I’d prefer it. I currently shoot and reload cartridges at most all the current caliber levels except .40, and any of them have adequate killing power if I do my part.
Dave, sorry, 9mm is CLOSE to a .38/.357 but don’t try interchanging bullets or loads. 9mm and .380 use the same diameter bullets, .38 and .357 use the same different size bullets, but trying to stuff .357 bullets down a .354 9mm barrel is pretty much gonna end poorly.
Once read a great analysis that concluded:
1) .22s work fine for killing things but not for shocking the target or having a lot of stopping power.
2) Everyone makes a big thing of one-shot stops, but in the vast majority of fights the SECOND round is what makes the difference. Many folks can keep on going after getting shot once, but most fights stop after someone is shot twice almost regardless of caliber – as the author put it, more because they get tired of being shot than of being mortally wounded.
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement… THEN maybe worry about the caliber. Make sure you can place every round accurately, plan for when you miss (‘cuz you will) and have an overall flexible layered defense: knives, handguns, rifles, shotguns, whatever ya got. My sister is gun phobic but has her ex’s 10-22 – bought her a couple of Ruger 25 rounders and told her when someone comes up her stairway to the 2nd floor, empty one magazine into them and then reload. Work with what you have. (Apologies for being longwinded)
Of course they are not exactly the same. I never suggested, if fact pointed out the fact that some are more powerful than others…that was my point.
Caliber has less to do with recoil than the charge that is behind the round.
I shoot .38’s out of my .357 all the time. I have done the same with 9mm. Going the other way A- wont work because the round wont fit and B would be another indication of someone not having sufficient training to know better.
It comes down to this:
I can put a hole in someone the size of a cocktail straw
Of
I can put a hole in them the size of a broom stick handle.
I will go with the latter.
“I have done the same with 9mm” – can you explain? Sounds like you’re advocating shooting 9mm in a .357, or?
I think he means the .38 Special.
I would qualify using .38 Specials in my brother’s .357 Magnum. I believe the major difference is the quantity of powder behind the bullet.
Less powder, shorter case – no argument on the .38/.357 side, just not sure where he is going with implying a ‘sub caliber’ (a la .38/.357 or .44 Russian/Special/Magnum)- I think maybe just a phrasing question.
Not advocating it, just stating the fact that it can be done. I never “advocate” people put any round in a weapon other than the one it was designed to shoot.
I load some of my own ammo. If I just want to go out plinking at some paper and bottles its much cheaper to use .38 in my .357. Its just a choice of mine. I never carry that weapon for personal protection with .38 in it.
“Knock down power” is the most misunderstood phrase in the gun world. To most it simply means how much energy is transferred to the target.
No gun of any caliber or charge will hit its target harder than the amount of recoil produced when fired.
That is just a fact, even my 45-70 with 540-gr +P ammo will not knock a grown man off his feet unless he was off balance to start with.
More training and less movies is what I advocate.
Those that believe the movies, deserve to.
You can shoot 9mm in a .357 revolver with a 9mm cylinder. The bullet diameter is the same. Ruger makes a Blackhawk with the extra 9mm cylinder. So you can shoot .357 mag/.38 special or 9mm with it. Thus, a good choice in pistol if you want to shoot all three in one gun, if you like single action wheel guns.
Think Ruger is the only company who does that, and it is a single action. Now you get into the whole slow-reloading debate of the single-actions vs. double actions! (I say this owning four of various calibers…kind of like my .22, I could use one and I think to OK with it – but one of them would be only a step higher than a .22 pistol.) Given a choice between virtually any single action and a semi-auto .22 rifle, I would be really tempted to grab the rifle first.)
Umm…nah. Again 5 min of work and any 357 revolver can shoot 9mm.
Even easier to shoot 45 ACP through a Colt.
Look up moon clips.
https://www.amazon.com/COLT-45-Half-Moon-Clips/dp/B004UA99X0
but if either round hits a major artery, you will still bleed out nonetheless. I had cousin who was shot in the back with a .22 from about 50 yards away and it killed him. The round bounced off his vertebrae and into a lung. That’s another thing that makes the “little bullet” so lethal. When I served in the Marine Corps, I wondered why we didn’t use a larger round similar to the 7.62cal., used by most enemies with an AK47, in contrast to our M16 service rifles. The 5.56mm NATO was a “tumbler” round which would cause more damage to vital organs once inside the body, by bouncing around. This prevented a combatant from continuing to charge which often happened from larger calibers going through the body without hitting vital organs…saying bye bye to “bonzai”
Dave, 9mm Parabellum is typically a .355 to .356″ projectile, not .380″
“David” not Dave Hardin. Whoops.
Correct on the .355-.356, but .380 is definitely a 9mm diameter – matter of fact, a couple of other names for it are 9mm Browning, 9mm Short, 9mm Korto. Gotta hit the coffee earlier, think I was thinking of 9mm Makarov which is a .363.
Yep, the Makarov is a beast of a different nature. Still, there is ammo that “will” work.
There is a company out of Ukraine that will ship…well never mind, I think you know where I was going.
Will a .22 LR kill a wild Boar?
Yep, I have seen it done…more than once.
Would I recommend someone go Wild Boar hunting with one…No.
The first time a 300lb Boar charges you after it has been shot will put an end to that nonsense.
I use a 45-70 Henry. Would I recommend people use that? No…It kicks like a mule.
I use it because if I shoot a charging Boar between its eyes the bullet comes out its ass.
Trying to put together a Boar hunt down in Texas for anyone interested. Private ranch owned by a friend of mine. You are welcomed to bring your 22LR I am hope I will get my hands on a .338 Lapua.
Suggestion to make your Henry make you smile… cast 400+ grain bullet with about 30 grains of IMR3031 wil give you a black-powder equivalent 1300 fps that is very pleasant to shoot, but will still go through a buffalo.
Where in Texas?
38 grains, sorry for the typo
Thanks, I have tried dozens of different loads. Always willing to try a new one.
If my safety or the safety of those around me is dependent on me killing something with it, I always use the same round.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570540tech.html
It has a Taylor knockdown score of 55…and I can offer my own personal attestation to that being a conservative number.
About an hour from Huston, TX. Owned by a Lawyer who keeps my ass out of prison…most of the time.
Here is a stock modification that may tame that howitzer of yours:
http://bumpbuster.blogspot.com
I have seen these used on shotguns. They can be fitted to rifles.
The is also a “Dead Mule” recoil reducer, which is a partially weighted tube that fits in the stock bolt hole, under the butt plate.
Gracoil also supplies mechanical and weight type reducers.
Thanks, I had not seen that version of a recoil reducer. Most of them use a counter weight to achieve recoil reduction.
I personally like the feeling of being kicked by a mule. It brings a smile to my face every time.
Plus, its always nice to have some black and blue marks that were not created by the Soviet. She has a recoil of her own.
My equivalent for that is not the 38 grain load, but a 405 JFP backed by 50 grains of 3031 – about 2000fps. For Texas hogs, though, the BP equivalent thumper will work (and has)quite well. If it’ll take down a buffalo (and it took down literally millions) it’ll do for a piggie.
405g lead slug
Case full of moderately compressed Goex FFg.
Boom
I’m up in Colorado, but i’d be interested in boar hunting Dave
Outsanding, hit me up on FB
In Kansas, but would also be interested. Any specific dates you’re looking at?
Not sure yet, I talked to him today. There are 4 bed rooms at the cabin.
We shall see, hit me up of FB if you want to know more.
There is no charge, anytime I can screw my Attorney out of something it brings me great joy and he knows it.
Is a .22 revolver sufficient to kill or damage a charging coyote?
The surprise factor and hitting him in the eye, should work, shouldn’t they?
The only reasons I can come up with for having a weapon on me outside of my home are:
1) – Coyotes or bucks in rut when I’m hiking on a trail. The coyotes around here are not the itty-bitty western coyotes. They’re the size of German Shepherds and are probably half-wolf, coming down the game trails from Canada.
A buck in rut is even nastier than a coyote. If you don’t should him in the head, the antlers alone can do you some serious injury.
2) – Someone wants my car with all my groceries in it, at the grocery store parking lot. I have to protect my groceries, you know, especially all that chicken I bought in bulk because I get a cheaper price that way.
What about me? You won’t defend me from some assassin while I try to have a beer with the Hooters Girl?
Of course I would defend you, but in a more subtle way than waving a gun in an assassin’s face. For example, throwing a bag of ice cubes on the floor for an assassin to step on will do some damage, as will throwing a pint of beer in his face, or a frozen strawberry daiquiri.
There is also the possibility of distracting an assassin by drawing his attention to the TV screens while you and the Hooters Girls escape unscathed, leaving poor old Ex-PH2 to get the assassin drunk on his butt and tied up in a corner with the cord from the Vitamix blender.
A friend in El Paso told of coyote hunting and their call attracted a large German Shepherd gone feral – took 11 5.56s to put him down for the count. He never coyote hunted with less than a .308 after that; said it scared the pants off him. Think a .22LR might be a tad light for you. Have you considered something a tad heavier…like a .357?
Why go .357 when you can go .50 BMG?
What’s a Barrett M107 weight? 27,28 Lbs…?
Worth it.
A cute, petite young lady of my acquaintance prefers a Desert Eagle in .50.
And she is accurate with the thing.
I’m glad we are friends.
fapfapfapfapfapfapfapfap
Wimps. Why not just carry a Howitzer?
Because the BATFE makes getting a DD hard…and I don’t have a tow hitch on all of my vehicles.
Blackpowder muzzle-loading cannon require no paperwork in most US locations.
They are a -hoot- to shoot.
I do… in my pants. (sorry, couldn’t resist)
No offense taken.
Well, actually a friend of my in By God West Virginia has one that we…umm…use for educational purposes only.
Hitting a fast moving critter like a charging coyote takes a lot of practice, IME, especially with a handgun. A lot depends on whether or not one has a clear shot, besides the practice/experience factor. In these East Texas woods the shot window can be fleeting if the animal is moving flat out. They say a coyote can get along at 40mph, top out at 69mph. That’s a lot of ground in a short time when trying to get a pistol into play. A whitetail tops at 48mph, according to the source I’m using. (http://speedofanimals.com/land)
The next factor is motivation of the critter. A coyote intent on game is going to take some time reacting to a hit from a smaller round. A buck in rut, similarly. They may eventually be deterred or die, but it might take them a while.
A criminal who is not under the influence may be deterred more easily with a .22LR. All bets are off if hormones or drugs are involved.
If the coyote is hunting game, she’s not going to be paying any attention to me, period. With a buck, the object is to distract and slow him down and then get out of his way – put a tree between me and him if he gets too close and put another one through his brain.
The only real buck I’m concerned about is Dave Hardin. When he gets going, a freight locomotive won’t stop him.
>snerk<
Thats not true and you know it.
Boobs are like Kryptonite to me. I lose all my super powers in an instant.
I’ve heard you were “faster than a speeding bullet” in such circumstances.
(I can not avoid such a perfect set-up.)
He is incorrigible, isn’t he?
And you keep incorriging him…
good one!
I happened to be standing about 15 feet away from a coyote one night last week. It had apparently come around to check out my female Border Collie. Having been around them a fair amount, it’s been my experience that coyotes are not usually aggressive toward humans. There are easier targets of opportunity.
Aside from being a risk to young livestock, smaller pets, and sometimes hunting in a pack, I’ve never considered a coyote to be any more of a threat than a cornered and seriously pissed off raccoon. YMMV
Until they go after Ex-PH2’s cats.
A certain former Governor of Texas had one go after his pooch. He also nailed that coyotes’ hide with a handgun he carries. Leading to all sorts of jokes comparing him to what a California Governor would do.
Gen. Phil Sheridan once said if he owned Texas and Hell, he would live in Hell and rent out Texas.
So it would not be a surprise to learn that a former Governor of Texas would pack heat on the slim chance he might be able to draw down on some broke-dick coyote, and have a Roadrunner moment.
Admittedly, our own former Governor of California is more inclined to hit on babes at the beach when he’s not bench-pressing Volkswagens. Nostra maxima culpa.
And in Texas, we say that Gen. Phil Sheridan made a good choice. Each man should stand by his native country.
The former Governor of Texas carried as a matter of course, because this is Texas after all. And he was out jogging when a coyote did try to attack his dog. And he did put a round into that coyote to save his dog.
“The Governor of California is jogging with his dog along a nature trail when suddenly a coyote jumps out and attacks his dog.
#1. The Governor starts to intervene, reflects upon the movie “Bambi” and realizes he should stop; the coyote is only doing what comes natural.
#2. He calls animal control. Animal control captures the coyote and spends $200 testing it for diseases, and an additional $500 to relocate it.
#3. He calls a Veterinarian for his dog. The Vet collects his dead dog and spends $200 testing it for diseases.
#4. The Governor goes to the hospital and spends $3,500 getting checked for diseases from the coyote, and to get his bite wound bandaged.
#5. The running trail is shut down for 6 months while the wildlife services conduct a $100,000 survey to make sure the area is clear of dangerous animals.
#6. The Governor spends $50,000 of state funds implementing a “coyote awareness” program for residents of the area.
#7. The State legislature spends $2 million investigating how to better handle rabies, and how to possibly eradicate the disease.
#8. The Governor’s security agent is fired for not stopping the attack and for letting the Governor intervene.
#9. The Cost: $75,000 to train new a security agent.
#10. PETA protests the coyote relocation and files suit against the state.
The Governor of Texas is jogging with his dog along a nature trail when suddenly a coyote jumps out and attacks his dog.
#1. The Governor shoots the coyote and keeps jogging.
The Governor has spent $0.36 on a .380 HP hollow point cartridge. Buzzards eat the dead coyote.
“… what a California Governor would do.”
Something like piss his drawers and call for Coyote Control Laws?
It would depend on the Governor, API. The Governator would probably shoot one member of the coyote pack and tell the rest not to come bach. The current Governor, Mooonbean Version 1.0, would likely want to give the coyote pack a group rate on his new choo-choo train to Merced.
Am I mistaken? I thought Ahrnald was anti-gun off screen.
he owns a tank
I’ve had coons show up on my front steps because they thought they could get bird food out of me.
You should have heard the growling… from my cats. Just glad that the weather is becoming more user-friendly and less intense with heat and humidity. I hope it lasts.
A boar coon can be a dangerous critter.
And I’ve had dogs who were cautious about going after an old she-coon.
I own an carry A KEL-TEC PMR 30 in .22 magnum. I comes with two 30 round mags. I think it is a damn good carry gun for the city or farm. I also own the FN FNX in .45. That one stays in the house. But a lot of good advice was given out in the comments above. A gun is a tool, and you must know how to use it properly. I always thought 40 SW was 40 SMALL and WIMPY:).
I’m partial to the .40 (thanks to the Clintoon Weapons Ban) but ANY modern JHP in common configuration (i.e. leaded and/or not light for caliber), in a casing that is center fired, and nonrimmed is fine for carry.
Tnoutdoors9’s tests are a great example of what does what. The ‘caliber war’ is the battleground of the mallninja/tacticool/keyboard warrior crowd.
KEL-TEL….mentioning those will get some arguments started.
I have 2 and like them both.
According to the ‘net you’re lucky getting 2 in a row that’ll work.
I’ve got 3 awesome KEL-TECs but they are what they are.
At the price point and the way forward thinking, I’m in the market for more.
Just make sure you buy new and fill out the warranty card. Never had to use it, but the rumor is they have amazing customer service.
I guess I’ll have to buy another one..in the name of research.
I would advise that the gun you -do- carry beats the one you don’t.
The gun you -do- hit with beats the one with which you miss.
The nice thing about low-recoil pistols is you can use them even when seriously debilitated. That comfortable confidence could be your winning edge, versus the cannon that makes you think “Oh is this gonna hurt…”
I will add one more bit of very hard earned knowledge:
The ability to shoot -well- with the weak hand is -very- important to learn before one actually needs it. Because when you need it, you will need it very badly indeed.
I bought 400 rounds of .22LR because it’s cheap and it works. I practice a lot with a beaman air rifle because it takes the same techniques to hit a target and saves me money. 500 air rifle rounds cost $7.
Y’know, I think Ol’ Poe was just wanting to up Jonn’s click count today.
Start a discussion on what calibers are effective personal defense rounds and sit back and watch the numbers grow.
LOL, whatever works.
Next time he will post which Bible is the best one for salvation.
My money’s on the one that doesn’t end in Armageddon.
To quote the great John Prine, “Jesus don’t like killin’ no matter what the reasons’ for..”
Yer flag decal won’t get you into Heaven any more.
My copy f that album has been played so much over the years you can hear both sides at once.
That reminds me of this song:
What’s the deal with Rolex wristwatches?
I don’t understand the attraction.
If I want to know what time it is, I just look at my cell phone.
By the way, cell phones are the reason watchmakers and jewelers are losing business.
Purely as a fashion accessory, I did buy a CHEAP pocket watch with a flip-up lid and a chain just to wear on my vest whenever I put on my best Sunday-go-to-meetin’ suit.
But, I haven’t used a wristwatch for many years.
Do you know why wristwatches replaced pocket watches in popularity?
It used to be that men considered a wristwatch to be effeminate, and most men only carried pocket watches.
The First World War, with trench warfare, changed that.
Men began wearing wristwatches, as it was more handy with their uniform, and it kept their hands free for combat.
Also, the First World War made smoking cigarettes popular, because it helped to endure the stench from decomposing corpses, and cigarettes were easier to carry than cigars or a pipe.
That’s also why the Army began including cigarettes in “C” rations.
In Viet Nam, there was a joke about how all the Special Forces guys wore Seiko watches, but I can’t remember how it goes.
Does anyone here remember?
“Big watch, little…..”
And that’s all I’m going to say.
Rolex dive watches – worn as an actual working time piece – are awesome. You just can’t be afraid to beat them up a little.
They became less of a standout with the appearance of G-shock-inspired dive watches on the market.
I’ve got a few thousand dives with the Submariner my dad got me when I graduated.
More mil time wearing a G-shock or Sunnto however.
I have a couple rolies..subbi and a GMT. Always have liked them for several reasons.
Latest toy is a Suunto Traverse Alpha. So far it’s pretty cool.
A Rolex is a good dive watch because of the case design. The deeper you go, the harder it tends to seal. The Submariners and GMTs also got traction among sailors for being, IIRC, the first wristwatches with chronograph accuracy. This meant you could use one for celestial navigation. GMT stands for Greenwich Mean Time, and that was where the additional hour hand was intended to be set for that model. They were also self-winding.
I’ve been a doctor and gun nut for 30 years
I’ve seen plenty of gun shot wounds and shot lots of different guns
Shot placement is the single most important factor in lethality in my experience
But I’ve never shot a gun inside a house without ear protection
Do any of our combat veterans know if shooting a gun in a darkened room without ear pro will cause permanent hearing damage or temporary blindness?
I’m toying with the idea of buying a silencer for my home defense CZ Scorpion, but it sure makes it much more clumsy and long
Come on doc, any exposure over 140db is going to cause damage.
But at that point, who cares.
Put a can on it, you’ll sleep better.
Permanent?
Probably not.
I’ve been caught way too close to a pair of AW gunners without my hearing pro on more than once.
The worst case resulted in my having serious hearing loss for 2-3 days afterwards. No idea of the long-term affects, but a pistol in a close room of average bedroom size…I wouldn’t worry about it. Especially when the alternative is not killing some scumbag who has entered your domicile and then your bedroom.
A shotgun in the bedroom is pretty much a no-brainer, in my opinion (in addition to a pistol or two depending on living conditions/current circumstances).
Doc brings up an interesting point about shooting in a darkened room. My own experience in Vietnam was after the first few few seconds in a night firefight or ambush I was essentially blind and simply fired where the enemy should be and at their muzzle flashes.
I’d say that in home defense that would argue for the .22 with its small powder content which would necessarily produce a much smaller muzzle flash.
Am I wrong?
Damage to hearing will vary. Folks who professionally and repeatedly subject themselves to unmoderated gunfire may not notice major deficits while active, but their audiologist will probably disagree with that later. Most folks dont pay attention to the really high frequency sounds, and that is what goes first. A few shots, once, in a closed room is probably the least of your worries for a civilian shooting. Surviving the fight, and the subsequent trip through the legal system is far more of a concern. Work on those first, is my advice. You might not even remember the sound, if the fight is sudden enough. Current commercial ammunition varies widely on “flash” in low-light conditions. Some occasionally is marketed/labeled as “low flash”. Almost anything that goes “bang” has flash you might notice. Quantity of poweder does influence flash, as more unburnt powder exiting the barrel leads to more flash when it finds O2 rich air outside the barrel. The type of powder also matters. Some are just more prone to flash, versus others, in a given firearm. The firearm used also contributes. Reduced barrel length tends to increase flash (generally). The general advice out there is “dont use handloads for social purposes”. I can’t argue either way. If one follows that, one is limited to commercial ammunition. Ideally, try your preferred loads in a dim or dark range, and see what you get. Now it is familiar, not a surprise. For folks not at war, nor carrying a badge, shooting in the dark may be legally indefensible, as you can’t really see who (and why) you are shooting. A good light is handy for identifying the thing that went bump in the night, and the light you throw will help your accuracy and reduce the impact flash has on you if you have to “bump” back at it. (Shooting in low/no light with a flashlight is another really useful thing to practice, so you at least know what to expect.) Practice is your friend, and practice that reflects the real world may just save your life. The ability to remotely light… Read more »
I’ve fired a gun inside a house (ND) and it was remarkably quiet. Granted, it was a .380, but it was still surprising. I suspect the carpeting, furniture, etc. in the room absorbed much of the sound, so YMMV depending on how the room is furnished.
Heh, heh…
You sneaky dog you.
What is this – sweeps week?
Pump and dump. Raise the enterprise value of TAH, get some quotes, sellout to WaPo.
Seen this routine before.
(Please don’t ban me, it’s a joke damnit)
I weep that Lars didn’t come on here and tell all of you that you’re fulla shit and that the most comprehensive collection of gun data resides at no other than his beloved Berzerkley and he is the curator.
Man, that would have really got it going.
Heh…
just need to say it two more times. 🙂
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I’ve always thought the best choice for home-defense is a shotgun. I use a 20ga Mossberg 500 my Dad bought for me for $75 at our local K-Mart’s closing sale when I was 14. It’s quick, light, has a fairly short barrel, and holds 6 +1 shells. Most importantly, it’s loaded with #2 shotshells which won’t penetrate (with enough force to kill) our lap and plaster walls at 10 yards.
That’s my go to in the hootch.
I carry a Springfield XDSC in .40 but am looking at the new Springfield XDE single stack exposed hammer in 09MM
Well, looks like this discussion is winding down and it was a good one. While I still value the .22LR as a self-defense gun more than many of you here, my own guns are a Beretta 92 in the old Caddie, a Ruger SR9 in the convertible and a Beretta/Stoeger Cougar 9mm in the bed’s headboard.
That little Cougar is one sweet piece; it’s the downsize from the Beretta 92 but when they brought out the PX4 Storm the licensed it out to the Turks who proceeded to make a very nice Beretta for a few hundred less than a B gun would cost.
For a nine, the gun has very little recoil due to the rotating barrel system developed originally by Beretta, which makes it easy to recapture the sight picture quickly. The result being subsequent rounds going where you want them to. That’s my reason for making it my bedside gun. Check it out here:
http://www.beretta.com/en/stoeger-cougar-8000/
I investigated a shooting 30 plus years ago. An old duffer shot his daughter’s ex boyfriend when he showed up at midnight threatening everyone in the household. He was warned to stay away, the old man was on his covered porch where he had two rifles, a .22 and a 30-06. Fortunately for the turd that got shot it was the .22. The guy was warned and kept coming at the old man. The man fired a warning shot then 3 shots into the turd. The first hit him in the shin, the second in the right nipple, the third did the most damage, hitting the collar bone. The creep left and checked into the local hospital, self defense all the way. I always thought it was the turd’s lucky day that the old man grabbed the .22 instead of the 06. The turd was 6-8 and about 295. The old man was about 150 soaking wet. Self Defense all the way. Moral of the story, grab the bigger caliber next time.
Ill stick with my .455 MkVI for nightstand duty.
6x 265gr DEWC= plenty of fuck off
The obvious conclusion one could reach from this discussion is that the best thing is to own a wide variety of ammo, and presumably, the tools to project same.
Hmmm.
For home defense, I’ll stick with my DEW cats, a cast iron skillet, something that sprays stuff, and a quick call to the poh-poh.
Isn’t there an old Murphey’s Law of Combat that goes “If the enemy is in range, so are you” ?
If the perp is in range of my cast iron skillet, I’m in range of his fist. Not my idea of a happy place. I want to have something that provides more range than the perp is likely to have. YMMV