Broken Arrow, OK updates
We mentioned earlier this week in our “feel good stories” the three teen criminals that were killed by a 23-year-old with an AR rifle when they returned to burglarize a home. 21-year-old Elizabeth Marie Rodriguez is rotting in a jail cell for driving the three to scene of their crime. She’s charged with felony murder for the deaths of her partners. According to the Associated Press;
“I understand he (the son) protected his home,” Rodriguez told television station KOTV. “He had his rights.”
But she said he could have shot the three in the legs. “He’s at the bottom of my list to be compassionate for,” she said.
Teary-eyed and often sniffling during the interviews, Rodriguez said she drove the teens to the home with the intent to burglarize it, while acknowledging the group had stolen items earlier the same day from a detached garage on the same property.
“I won’t take responsibility for the murders, I won’t. I feel guilty, but I don’t feel responsible,” Rodriguez said to ABC’s “World News Tonight with David Muir.”
Rodriguez also said another person was with her in the vehicle as she waited outside the home, but would not identify the person.
One of the criminals’ grandfather isn’t happy that his kin was out-gunned. From Tulsa’s Channel 8 KTUL;
[Leroy Schumacher, grandfather of 17-year-old Jacob Redfearn] agrees his grandson and his friends made a bad decision, but not one worthy of deadly consequences.
“They knew they could be punished for it but they did not deserve to die,” said Schumacher.
Redfearn, 19-year old Maxwell Cook and 16-year old Jake Woodruff were shot by the homeowner’s son while breaking into the Wagoner County house Monday.
Schumacher says his grandson didn’t have a chance. The 17-year old, he says, never got into trouble.
“Brass knuckles against an AR-15, come on, who was afraid for their life,” said Schumacher.
Since the shooting, Wagoner County deputies have arrested 21-year-old Elizabeth Rodriguez, the alleged getaway driver.
Schumacher believes she was the ring leader, and investigators say she admitted to planning the whole thing.
The homeowner’s son has not been charged with a crime. Deputies believe he fired in self-defense.
“There’s got to be a limit to that law, I mean he shot all three of them; there was no need for that,” said Schumacher.
Schumacher does say he supports the right to bear arms and protect your home. But he doesn’t agree with shooting and killing intruders.
Category: Crime
Also according to Gramps the only logical thing to do was for the victim to give the intruders the weapon and apologize for interrupting their afternoon of high school hijinks.
I am seeing conflicting timelines when this event took place. Was it the middle of the night or middle of the day?
They burglarized a detached garage apartment earlier in the day, then came back to burglarize the main home shortly after noon.
Yeh, didn’t deserve to die? You break into ANYONES house and EXPECT to die…shoot them in the legs? MY ASS, someone shot in the legs can shoot back, to hell with that…if you have to shoot, shoot to kill, stops the agression right now!
Okay, unless the (alleged) burglers present the homeowner with a formal declaration of home invasion outlining what weapons will and will not be used, how is the owner supposed to know jar far he can go defending his life and property. That would be like a nation conducting an unprovoked attack on another country’s naval facilities and ships, then crying when they get two atomic bombs dropped on them.
To hell with that bottom feeding bitch.
My kid gets shot robbing someone, I won’t blame the victim who was forced to defend their property, and lives. Grandpa is grieving, and I will cut him a tiny amount of slack…
They were all armed. The bitch knew that family,she preyed on them, and deserves the needle for putting in motion the deaths of those dumbasses.
Ditto
The moment they broke in, yes, they deserved to die.
The sooner mutants understand that, the sooner they stop doing it.
You can point that out to the mutants, with Powerpoint demonstrations and all, and some of them won’t get it. So, there will always be burglars/thieves/scumbags, because they think it’s easier to steal than to work for something.
Well, if nothing else got done, the gene pool got cleaned up a little.
I’d say use a 5.56mm Point rather than a Powerpoint. They are more efficient in getting the ‘point’ across. In this case, lesson learned times three by Elizabeth Marie Rodriguez’s ex-companions.
Sorry, Grandpa, but the moment they broke into the house all bets were off. Her comment about shooting them in the legs – apparently human anatomy wasn’t in any of her classes since you nail someone in the right place, they will bleed out just as fast if not worse. You want to be big boys and play stupid games, then you need to be prepared for someone to take you up on your games and respond. Why is Grandpa the only one that has made comment – where are the parents of these wonderful children at? Oh, that’s right – they were just out having a little bit of fun – they were all good kids that were getting their lives back together, right? Three (and depending on how she gets sentenced maybe 4) less idiots to thin from the gene pool now.
Gramps should be lucky his precious snowflake was only shot with an AR.
Imagine had he taken a .45 P+ hollowpoint or a full blast of 00 buck from a 12-gauge.
At two meters …
There definitely wouldn’t be any open casket memorials. Also, this shoot them in the legs is total bullshit, as everyone here knows. As all trigger pullers are taught, you aim center of mass and shoot to stop the threat. Where I come from that means until they are on the ground in a pool of blood or running away from you.
Exactly. You don’t pull out a firearm unless prepared to shoot, and you don’t shoot unless you’re shooting to kill.
And you don’t stop shooting until you are out of rounds or the threat ceases to move.
If you’re out of rounds, reload ASAP.
AZ, GB, you’ve quoted the law of Moses.
John Moses Browning.
Sorry Grandpa, but Oklahoma has a very good “Stand Your Ground” law.
Grandpa seems to believe that someone cannot beat someone to death with a set of brass knuckles, and besides, how the hell did the shooter that stood his ground know that the three intruders were not armed?
The main reason so many states have adopted a “Stand your ground” laws is because of the elevated number of those murdered in their own homes by the intruders.
Gramps also needs to do a little reading and look at murder statistics. Something like 3-4 times more murders occur with knives and blunt force trauma than occur with long guns, let alone “scary black guns.”
This actually falls under Castle Doctrine (inside your home/workplace) rather than Stand Your Ground (elsewhere). The reporters got it wrong. However your point is well taken.
Actually, Eden, he is not wrong and neither are you. (Sounds like I should run for office.) The Castle Doctrine applies as an exception to a legal duty to retreat. So, the first thing is that there must be a duty to retreat. If there is none, the Castle Doctrine would not apply because no exception is required in the absence of a duty. The so-called “Stand Your Ground” statutes apply to all situations, whether on one’s own property or not, and allows a person to stand and fight in defense of self or property when either is threatened. Both DYG and the CD are nothing more than self defense, by and large, and where there is no duty to retreat neither is necessary. Both help, however, when it comes to being sued by the injured assailants or their survivors. In the instant case, the prosecutor said his decision not to act against the defender was in concert with the state’s SYG law.
The only one who gets any compassion from me is the young man forced to defend his home. He’s going to carry the fact that he had to (yes, HAD TO) kill three miscreant little fucks who had no business being in the home.
Dear Grandpa–maybe if you beat grandson’s ass once in a while, he might not end up 62 grains heavier. But naw, that would mean taking a little fucking responsibility upon yourself, now wouldn’t it? And yes, this does reflect upon your character. While not universal, kids do tend to follow the examples set by the adults in their lives. Food for thought.
So next time one of these shitstains wants to whine about, “There’s nothing in his house worth killing for!” consider that there’s nothing in my house worth dying for in your case, mkay?
I had a call once where grandma wasn’t telling us where her adult daughter was (she had a felony warrant) and pulled the ‘You have to be nicer to me! Can’t you see I’m raising my grandchildren here!?’ To which I replied ‘You didn’t do very well the first time, what makes you think you’ll do any better this time?’
My partner threw me out of the house in the deafening silence that followed. Seems to be the case here.
Also, sorry SEA! Hit the wrong button right off!
Sorry, Grandpa… the minute the boys broke into the house, it was a bad decision going to worse. And, as for your Grandson being a “good boy”, well he wasn’t that good if he couldn’t look at the situation he was getting his ass into and decide to back out.
As for the driver, hope she is looking forward to a very long stretch at the Mabel Bassett Women’s Prison – my ex-wife’s sister did a stretch there for meth distribution in the 80’s. (don’t know if the death penalty is an option in OK).
OK has multiple methods of execution on the books, although I’m not sure if her case would fall under a DP case.
He was a good boy … Really, Gramps? If he was such a good boy, what was he doing stealing from his neighbor?
I’m really getting sick of this lame excuse. Regularly claimed by kin of dead dogturds, rather less often do the facts bear witness.
I agree with Senora Rodriguez. He could have shot them in the legs, if the all stood on their heads up against a wall. Otherwise, no. She feels guilty but not responsible? That one has me confoosed.
Her lawyer is probably banging his/her head against a wall right now.
This skank will be lucky to see the outside of a prison before she dies.
No lawyer- she waived her right to consul when she went to the police to be interviewed. Best guess is that she thought(and I use that word loosely) that she assumed her statements to the police would lead to charges for the shooter- who may have killed all three with just two shots.
At this point, it’s going to take a brilliant lawyer to get her three concurrent life sentences versus consecutive ones.
Play stupid games win extremely stupid prizes. Very interested while only one grand parent has a comment and none of the parents do. How about a little sympathy for the shooter who has to deal with the fact he/she took 3 lives because he/she felt threatened?
Like William Munny told “Lil Bill” Dagget in the Movie ” Unforgiven”
…. “Deserves got nothin’ to do with it”
Sure, no one should die for pinching some stuff, however when you break in someone’s house YOU are the one responsible for creating a situation that can lead to deadly force.
The sad fact is that far too many burglaries don’t end with the burglars taking stuff and leaving. They frequently kill everyone they can find in the home, as well, to cover their tracks and dispose of witnesses. Grandpa Snowflake and Whiny Driver need to understand that if you break into my home, YOU ARE THREATENING MY LIFE, no matter what weapons you are or are not carrying, and you will be dealt with accordingly!
+1
I also
‘“Brass knuckles against an AR-15, come on, who was afraid for their life,” said Schumacher.’
Can’t speak for Oklahoma, but in the PRofMD brass knuckles are considered deadly weapons. So the answer is, the home owner’s son, who has every right to defend himself and no obligation to match the level of aggression. The classic, “knife to a gun fight” syndrome once again meets Darwin’s Law.
Not to mention that an AR can be used for target shooting, hunting, etc – peaceful uses – while a set of brass knucks is a single-purpose item with no other possible usage than bodily harm. Maybe the boys didn’t deserve to die in the grand scheme of things, but the pity is that by their stupid actions they placed themselves in a situation which caused them to die. Either way, they managed to inflict a lot of grief on their families and the shooter.
Yeah, Pops, your grandson was a ‘good boy’ until he chose to be a lowlife criminal. It’s unfortunate the three are dead, but what was the homeowner to do? Wait for a positive outcome? Wait for the lowlifes to leave? Hope they didn’t charge him and beat him to death? Get a grip, Pops, they made a life-ending decision. It’s unfortunate but the homeowner is alive and he’s the only one I really care about.
Now, Pops, about your grand parenting skills …
Whiney Driver is responsible – she just doesn’t want to acknowledge it.
Gramps is an idiot. While I hope and pray (and work to the end that) none of my grandchildren take up a life of crime, if they did and died, I know who to blame. The person who chose to steal and rob, not the one defending their home and property.
OH – and Gramps? Three on one with brass knuckles? That can be a life changing experience. They threatened the kid – and deserved to die.
They went into a house that they knew was occupied. They were carrying weapons, yes, just about every state in the Union Brass Knuckles are weapons. If they wanted to just steal stuff, they would have come when no one was home. They were there for more than the stuff. They were there to hurt someone. If it was just burglary, why carry a weapon?
No sympathy whatsoever. Gramps is a moron, he obviously help impregnate and then bring up the father of the moron and then the moron father beget a moron son. Your grandson was going to hurt someone. He paid the price.
I just hope this Mensa member did not add any more idiots to the world.
The driver/mastermind has two or three kids already, and may have another on the way that will never know its father since the sperm donor in question was one of the dead dumbasses.
You now have just a little peak inside the minds of the folks who see you as “food”.
It is not appropriate for you to fight back. You are “food” and they are the predators. So you get what you should and they get what they want.
“Good boy” in such thinking usually means “shares the ‘take’ with older, less functional predators”.
Boohoo. They entered the dudes house with weapons. You enter my my house without my consent you’ll be leaving with more holes than you entered with. How do I know know what your intentions are? I’m not a fucking mind reader. “Oh, you were just here to take my shit and not to harm me by all means proceed then.” Are you insane. Fuck them. I’m sure there’s an ambulance chasing lawyer preparing to sue the shit out that homeowner. Possibly a plane crashing idiot that lives in Flor…oh never mind.
“they did not deserve to die,”
I respectfully disagree.
Maybe they didn’t “deserve to die.” But they sure “earned” what they received. Take a potentially fatal risk and that just might be the prize you win. Don’t want to die doing a burglary, then don’t do the crime.
Theologically speaking, we all deserve to die.
I’m thinking Gramps is confusing “deserve” with “I didn’t want him to”.
Yeah, Senora Rodriguez is a MENSA candidate, to be sure. She admits to every damn thing on TV, including the felony murder rule. That rule holds that if a person willingly participates in a felony (e.g., burglary) and someone, god guy or bad guy, is killed during the commission of that felony, the person who participated (e.g., drove the burglars to the house to be burglarized) is accountable for that death. She doesn’t have to feel responsible. She has already admitted her legal responsibility. Genius.
“Fair”, “Equally armed”, there is no such thing as a “fair” fight. One side of the fight sets upon the other. To be “fair”, both would have had to conceive the idea to have the fight. Protecting one’s self, or one’s goods isn’t at all about being fair. It is all about being alive after the event. While this happened in the day time, most home invasions happen in the night. Should this happen in my home, where I sleep in the dark, I will respond with “maximum effect” at any sound coming through my door or down my hallway. And, “Maximum Effect”, in my home is very severe, and only barely legal. I have no more intention of being a victim than of engaging in a “fair fight”.
Yes, so far as I can tell a burglary and a “gentlemen’s” duel aren’t comparable. Last I heard there were no rules for “fair” conduct and equal armament for a burglary.
If you are in a fair fight, you did not prepare properly.
“Fair Fight”
I would define that as
Everyone On my side goes home in the same condition they left. None of the Opposition even saw their Death coming, and died thinking “….what?”.
Seems fair to me. You don’t hear anyone bitching, do you?
11B, that is an understanding of “Fair Fight” with which I can wholeheartedly agree.
That notion of a fair fight applies only when there are two guys with a beef who need to duke it out to rid themselves of ill feelings. It also apples to boxing where there are weight classes and glove-weight limits. Beyond those things, a fair fight is a fiction. “Oh, the enemy has 10,000 troops and no armor? Okay, we’ll send in no tanks and only 10,000 of our guys.” Or, how about a police officer in a situation? “All units. No need for assistance. The suspect is alone. It will be a fair fight, one on one.” When one’s life is in danger, fairness is not a factor. It’s all about overwhelming one’s opponent by whatever means available. No one shoots to wound. That doesn’t mean a head shot is to be applied to an opponent who is down. At that point, the danger no longer exists. Until that point, though, when one shoots, it’s to kill.
Back in the law of the olden days, there was a concept in the law called “mutual combat.” And it was a viable defense to a civil or criminal action for assault and battery. But based upon my experiences in ride-alongs with the popo, if they find one of the two parties was beat upon by the other, someone is going to jail, usually the person who did not get the worst of it and/or started the physicality. So basically, mutual fair fighting outside of a ring is a thing of the past. Anyway, if the police are involved. The DA may not prosecute, but in most jurisdictions someone is going to spend the night in jail.
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
At least that is the rule of thumb I’ve heard about.
They came armed with weapons to invade a home. Obviously their intentions were to cure cancer and turn their lives around.
Per Grandpa Fucknuts’s comment, how the hell was the kid defending his home supposed to know what armament they were or weren’t concealing, or what their intent was? Maybe if he’d done a better job at preventing his grandkid from growing into a delinquent shithead who thinks B&E and theft are fun, the little cocksucker wouldn’t have gotten himself shot.
If you force entry into my house at any time of the day or night, you’re getting shot. Period. I don’t care if you just want the TV, because for all I know, you’re there to slit my throat, rape my wife, and do something unspeakable to my kids. You forfeited the benefit of the doubt the moment you decided to break in. I take no chances with my family’s safety, will assume the worst, and will keep squeezing the trigger until I’m confident that you no longer pose a threat to me and mine. That’s all there is to it.
As for the twat in the getaway car, this whole sad story is the direct result of piss-poor decision making by you and your shitbag friends. You played with fire, and now you’re crying foul because you got burned. Tough titties, bitch. You all earned what you got.
Interesting application of the Felony Murder rule.
Here in Colorado in order for Felony Murder to apply the killing itself has to be unlawful.
IOW if Bill and Ted agree to commit a robbery, with Bill driving the car and Ted robbing the store, and Ted shoots and kills the clerk, both Bill and Ted can be charged with murder under the felony murder statute. But that would be because the killing of the clerk was unlawful.
If the clerk pulled out a gun and killed Ted, Bill could not be charged with Ted’s murder because Ted was not murdered, he was killed in self defense, a “lawful” killing.
Either OK has a different variation of the Felony Murder rule or the prosecutor may have been overzealous in charging her.
To my mind, it’s difficult to say felony murder applies because “murder” by definition means an unlawful killing. Without a murder, how can there be a felony murder?
I am not a lawyer.
That point was explained to me as “goober #1 caused the killing of goober #2. -That- was not lawful killing.”
The “wrong” exists, and rests squarely on the surviving instigator of the fatality. Absent their actions, no death occurs, thus wrongful.
UPDATE: Just looked up the OK statute and indeed, there is no requirement in OK that the killing being unlawful, (The OK statute says “causes the death of another person”) so felony murder does apply.
Most states have a felony murder rule that does not require the killing of an accomplice to have been unlawful or unjustified. Burglary is considered an inherently dangerous felony and if a homicide occurs during its commission all of the principals (primary actors in the crime) are subject to a felony murder rule charge, if I recall my criminal law course correctly. Since she was an active participant in the crime, she is toast.
Too bad for her she and her crew they didn’t do the crime in Colorado.
It’s BAD enough this poor hero needed to shoot the pieces of sh** criminals who BROKE down a door to get in, I just hope NO criminal/civil charges come at him.
F**k the criminal’s families thoughts. lol YOU raised a criminal dummass. Sorry.
I read one article in which she says one of the criminals tried to get in the car but she drove off. No honor among thieves.
Fits what I’ve seen of the criminal mindset: “I’m with you until the fertilizer hits the ventilator, then I’m outta here.”
If these fuckers were just going to rob the place, and not go with the intention of hurting anyone inside the home…Why bring weapons?
The person that shot these rejects deserves praise, and now possibly some grief counseling because they were forced to take the lives of the intruders.
If they were going to “rob the place” there would had to have been a victim present. Robbery requires the presence of a victim subject to a threat of force. You mean they were going to commit a burglary, which does not require the presence of a victim to commit that crime. Many burglars bring weapons because they can’t be certain there won’t be anyone on the premises. It is still one of the five dangerous felonies because of the potential for physical harm.
What’s the female companionship situation in Broken Arrow OK? It must be slim pickings that this “female” was able to convince not one, but three men to commit a residential burglary. Of course, the three ventilated young men were no rocket surgeons.
Hey, be nice….no doubt she has a great personality, all the girls love her, is a great conversationalist, and makes all her own clothes. (Did I miss anything? That was the classic list when I was younger)
From the photo – she’s fat, so they must have been really hard up.
She’s a multiple recipient of the “Gold Medal Treatment”.
Good one, SFC D!
She’s what they would call in baseball a “slumpbuster”…
“I won’t take responsibility for the murders, I won’t. I feel guilty, but I don’t feel responsible,” Rodriguez said to ABC’s “World News Tonight with David Muir.”
Got news for ya, honey; it doesn’t matter one tiny, insect sized bit how YOU feel about it.
Ya see, the law holds accomplices as responsible if they are participating in the crime, and someone gets killed during it’s commission. So, you’re feelings and $2.75 will get you a Grande coffee at Starbucks.
Another thing; But she said he could have shot the three in the legs. “He’s at the bottom of my list to be compassionate for,” she said.
Yeah; he COULD have shot them in the legs, I can see that. But something you have to know about an AR-15 and the type of ammo it uses; he would have SHOT THEIR FUCKING LEGS OFF!! So, they would have bled to death before the ambulance arrived.
Howdy Mark – I agree with everything that you say, but at the end of your comment, you kind of wander off into the Gun Grabber’s urban legend land.
A civilian AR-15 can shoot many different kinds of ammo, and there are literally hundreds (if not thousands) of civilian variations of Mr. Stoner’s venerable platform out there. I will forego a lengthy lecture on ballistics, projectiles, twist rates, and etc… and just commend you to spend a few minutes on YouTube watching videos of the terminal performance of the wide variety of 5.56 NATO ammunition out there. While it is a very effective round, and I will be last in line to volunteer to demonstrate its effect on the human leg, complete amputation of the limb is a highly unlikely outcome.
Sorry to come off so pedantic – but the mythical performance of the 5.56 NATO round is one of the gun-grabber’s favorite talking points and I have to try and squish them whenever I see them.
Other than that, I have nothing but a hearty “Amen Brother” for your post.
That is all…
You are correct, Geet. One of the E-5’s in my unit in the viet of the nam was shot is the thigh with an M-16 round in a unfortunate friendly fire incident. I saw him at the hospital and saw his x-ray. Not pretty. But I saw him at a reunion about 20 years ago at Fort Campbell. He was an E-8 with the 101st Abn Div. and was walking on two good legs. He was still pissed he didn’t get to complete his tour all those years ago because of that medevac to Japan wound.
Thank you, sir. I am known for engaging in hyperbole to make a point.
My major bitch about people saying; “why didn’t he shoot them in the legs?” is that they have that old, movie and TV created idea that shooting someone in the leg (or shoulder, or arm, or some other “non-essential” body part).
They forget (or are ignorant of) the fact that the legs are a major highway for blood, known as the Femoral Artery. And shoulders are filled with bones, muscle, another main artery, and tons of nerves, that are very vulnerable to injury when a bullet passes through for a visit.
Don’t worry about “being pedantic”. I think there are shot for that now.
Thank you again, brother.
Since all the cops are trained to shoot at center of mass (usually middle of the chest), it is really absurd for anyone to think that shooting to wound an assailant makes any sense for a civilian. Police are also trained to keep shooting until the threat is eliminated, which explains why some officers fire so many shots defensively.
Am I the only one who thought this post was about the call “broken arrow?”–based only on the title? Raise hands please. I see that I wasn’t. Thanks.
I used to live near Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, so no. (And yes, I do know what a “broken arrow” is–too long in SAC. . .)
There will never be a shortage of IDIOTS in this world, the goblins and the Grandad are living proof of that. I remember a college friend who had stickers on the windows of his rental house in college that had stickers with a skull and crossbones saying “THERE IS NOTHING IN HERE WORTH YOUR LIFE” and I have the exact same attitude about Proud Infidel Manor®™. If I remember correctly, Oklahoma recently passed a law making a Firing Squad one of their means of execution.
I do feel bad for the son. Having to kill three people at such a young age inside his own home is going to take a toll. Knowing that they had it coming doesn’t mean it won’t effect him. They really suck for making him do that.
Had the shoe been on the other foot I doubt they would have given a boot full of piss for their victims.
Strange that grandpa commented and mom and dad for all four are really quiet. Maybe not so strange. What do you say when your kid gets killed taking part in home invasion?
“What do you say when your kid gets killed taking part in home invasion?”
Answer: “Dammit, George! I told you to keep paying those life insurance premiums. But, nooooo, you had to play the numbers. Idiot!”