The terrorist has won
Last week, Dylann Roof murdered nine peaceful American citizens who were attending their Bible studies group. His stated intent was to start a race war and, behold, he has thus far been successful. Look at the news today – because this little cretin was holding a Confederate flag in some of his social media photographs, there is a movement to remove the Confederate flag from our national memory, from state houses, from toys. While the military denies that they will rename bases named after Confederate generals, the Stars & Stripes was still able to bring it into the national discussion.
The misnamed “Liberals” at The Nation claim that “The Greatest Threats to American National Security Are Guns and the Police” that, armed White Americans are a bigger threat to this country than the adherents of ISIS who are being rounded up nearly every day in this country.
It’s no longer about the actions of that little piece of shit in that church basement last week, it’s about all of us. The lesson of the Civil War is completely lost on the American conscience – that lesson being that half of the country went to war with the other half to correct a social injustice. That White people died by the hundreds of thousands to rescue Black Americans from a bad system. If every Black slave had revolted, they would not have been successful turning around the injustice of slavery without the support of roughly half of the White population.
There have always been bad White people, there have always been bad Black people, but there are many more good people of all races to correct the situations the bad people create. I’m not willing to accept that I’m as bad as Dylann Roof just because we happen to be similarly pigmented. I’m also not willing to admit that I am a racist because an unknown number of individuals who look a little like me happen to be racist.
Nicholas Kristof writes in the New York Times that “Tearing Down the Confederate Flag Is Just a Start” and he blames White America for the economic condition of Black Americans. The Black people that I know would take exception with Mr. Kristof. I know Black Americans who have worked their whole lives to overcome the stigma that Liberal White Americans have placed on their burden.
In short, Dylann Roof has been quite successful in his endeavor to create friction between the differently pigmented. It’s up to the grownups to determine whether the superficial differences between us are reason enough to escalate that which Dylann Roof started.
Category: Who knows
Gee, and I thought Ferguson, MO was the starting point for that.
Good article, Jonn.
When the so-called ‘liberals’ start paying attention to black-on-black crime and stop labeling dead crminals as ‘victims’ (they aren’t), the sun may explode in astonishment. They are all on the same bandwagon right now and will continue to ride it until people will better reasoning and better understanding tell them to shut up.
THEY are inciting a race war, not people like us. They should be careful what they wish for. It will come to their neighborhoods before it comes to mine.
Hear, hear!
I am sick and tired of pussies complaining, sometimes its just one asshole, and other assholes jump right on the bandwagon, like in this case amazon and walmart, those turncoat assholes now won’t sell a confederate flag….those flags represented STATES RIGHTS you idiots…, guess they don’t believe in states rights either, I think we are damned close to a revolution in this country!!
Good Post John. It reminds me of the discussions back in the 1990’s about “reparations” for slavery; . One of my more liberal (but young and idealistic)classmates/friends was particularly strong in his belief that “reparations” were needed. In response, I drove him to one of the local national cemeteries here in Indiana, pointed out the white markers from the 1860’s and said something to the effect of “There are your reparations.” That ended the discussions with him.
There are national cemeteries all over at least the eastern half of the US with Union graves. Visits to those should be a required field trip for every Jr./Sr. high school student.
Good answer!
Jonn,
I have been pretty vocal about my discontent and what all of this actually means. It’s unfathomable to me that the anyone links crazy with the CF or dares to call us ALL white supremacists because of history 150 years later. Fuck them all. They won’t be satisfied until Brown shirts are posted at every home telling us what we can and cannot do.
Who among us, black, white, southern, or honest liberal actually has awakened to find themselves in pain and suffering because of the Civil war and who died or who stood for/against slavery or state’s rights? WHO????
And WHAT will change because retailers don’t sell the CF, or it isn’t flown at a Gov’t Building? Absolutely fucking nothing. And it would not have stopped Roof from killing innocents, FFS because no CF’s were to be found or idolized.
Sigh. Rush was right. They’re coming for the RWB and Farrakhan’s followers are cheering. Get THEM the fuck out and put him and his friends on the terrorist watch list.
In the meantime, google Karen Cooper, Battle Flag.
Ban all Gold’s Gym apparel. Dammit, the peeps are offended…its just flat out raaaycist.
I question Roof’s “racist” motivation. To me it was more about him being a 21 year old loser. A 9th grade dropout with a felony arrest and probable impending conviction, he was a train wreck. His future was not looking good and like we’ve seen before of his ilk, he wanted to be famous. While there are the Confederate flag pictures, there are also the burning American flag photos and the reports that half of his FB friends are black. What I’m seeing basic political opportunism. I think that it is probably time for the Confederate flag to be retired to museums & historical sites, but the calls for statues of Confederate figures to be removed or rename Army posts is absurd.
I agree Phil. This little shit stain wasn’t a brainiac. He didn’t sit and read Mein Kampf or the works of David Duke and come to his own political and racial views. He was just a whacked out mentally, ignorant, little turd with a beef. He chose to take his beef out on blacks. He might have easily chosen his least favorite fast food place which last fucked up his order, or the last store which asked him to leave for lurking in an obvious attempt to shoplift. Who knows? Well the hard left thinks they do and they are ceasing the opportunity for each and every agenda they have issue with to be sure theirs is thrown in the “Dylann Roof pile of shit to correct and overthrow for our own satisfaction”.
He wanted a race war? He is sure to find one if he is put in general population in prison. He better pray to be segregated.
I blame The Moe Howard Haircut for this guys actions.
That’s an insult to Moe Howard and the entire “Stooges” brand 😉
The thing that gets me is that a bunch of white guys in the old south did not perpetrate slavery all by themselves.
When the slave traders arrived on the shores of Africa, did the indigenous Africans just come out of the bush and march themselves up the gangplanks themselves? Hell no. They were routinely captured and sold into slavery by their own race.
Also slavery existed on this continent before the white man ever stepped foot on it, as many Native American tribes and cultures practiced slavery until Unicorns and Skittles showed up in the historical record.
Slavery is bad, I get that; however, it is better to look at the peculiar institution as it has existed throughout all of recorded human history in order to understand what market forces caused it to exist and how to prevent it from ever occurring again. Banning a flag is just stupid, but expected.
It is easy for northern liberals and, indeed, liberals wherever they reside in this country, to condemn a display of a Confederate battle flag. No thought is required and, aside, perhaps, from some vacation stopover in the South, northerners have never even seen that flag flying in person. Come to think of it, I have never seen a Prius or a Volvo sporting a Confederate battle flag decal or bumper sticker. So, let them demand that all monuments to Confederate generals and units be removed from wherever they may be found. Let the retailers declare that they will no longer sell any item associated with the Confederacy. Have at it. Enjoy. Their lives will have meaning. They will have done something.
I was born and raised in Texas. When I was about 25 I went to Maine and lived up there DownEast for almost 2 years (1988/89). During that time period I was in Maine (Rt. 1 north of Portland), I saw one black person… and he was a tourist. I think there are things that some northerners have not seen besides a Confederate Flag. Ever seen a pan shot of a football crowd in the bleachers in bumfuck Wisconsin? Not much diversity going on…
As a black comedian named Dick Gregory said: “Down South they don’t care how big we get as long as we don’t get too close. Up North they don’t care how close we get, as long as we don’t get too big.” The North is as racist as the South and in about the same proportions. Which is to say not much but they have their assholes, too.
A buddy of mine is a black man from Maine. He used to joke that Maine lost 50% of it’s black population when he Joined the Army and moved away.
I can’t stand it anymore. The Civil War was about State’s Rights v Federal gov’t power. Slavery was about to be dead as a doornail due to the invention of the cotton gin. Roof killed a bunch of black people because he lost a girlfriend to a black man. The little self centered shit was a failure in the romance department. It’s not about flags or guns. It’s about someone who couldn’t understand that he was suffering from an ID10t failure.
State’s rights to continue to own slaves. The war was at its roots about slavery no matter what Southern apologists say.
Leaving aside the causes of the Civil War, THIS ISSUE is about states’ rights, too. The Federal government has no power whatsoever in this matter. What a state does or does not do with regard to its flags or monuments is for the state to decide. Will Arkansas change its state flag? Will the Rebels of this or that school change its mascot? Will a state refuse to issue plates bearing a symbol of the Confederacy or, if it has done so in the past, recall those plates for exchange? My guess is that the affected southern states will not, with limited exception, do any of these things. This ain’t their first go-round with this issue. And there’s a funny thing about this stuff. For many southerners–and this is something the northern libs don’t get–the Civil War is much more than what appears in US History books.
The government has found it’s leverage: people in the society stupid enough to do their bidding. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers — that’s what the government is counting on. The flag thing is a TEST. Guns are next, as soon as the technique is perfected. Believe me when I tell you that we are ALREADY screwed — we just haven’t figured that out yet.
One might argue the causes of that war are at the root of the problem.
One might argue those states that were defeated used those flags after the way to let their black citizens know where they stood in the eyes of the white folks running the state. Just because the war ended didn’t mean blacks were suddenly equal to white men in the eyes of those white men.
Flags and bedsheets went a long way in reminding the black man of his place in polite southern society.
The south pretending that the two are unrelated and going through a bunch of contortions to pretend otherwise isn’t much different than Japan or Germany pretending their cultures weren’t supporting their expansions and murder of enemies in the tens of thousands either.
Anyone can pretend anything they want. The states can certainly claim their state flags represent the spirit of rebellion and a proud history of individuality. It doesn’t mean anyone besides those states is obligated to believe that horse shit.
Institutionalized racism had to be systematically legislated out of existence in the south, it took 110 years after the Civil War ended to finally get some legislation that guaranteed that all of the South’s citizens had to receive equal treatment under the law, that was just 50 years ago. Most of those states denying blacks equal rights in the 1960s were flying those flags then and are still flying them now.
One man’s proud heritage is just another man’s symbol of systemic, white government backed racism.
But let’s all keep pretending it’s about State’s rights…that makes the folks responsible for the institution of government backed racism feel better and heaven forbid they get upset.
Fifty years of forced compliance with the concept of equality under the law doesn’t make the system perfectly equal for all regardless of how many times we say it does.
So, should we talk about how tolerant South Boston is regarding racial minorities, VOV? See a lot of the Confederate flag there?
From my perspective – and from what I’ve seen in many cities nationwide – my opinion is that racism is no more prevalent in the South than it is in the North (or the West, for that matter). There are bigoted idiots of all races and ethnic groups anywhere you go. No race/ethnic group/region has a monopoly.
And as far as “perfectly equal for all” – if you’re talking about anything except equal treatment under law, that’s a pipe dream. The poor guy or gal from the inner city or the backwoods will never have the same advantages as the guy raised by well-to-do parents in an affluent part of a town. But that’s true whether you’re talking “poor white trash” or an inner city minority guy or gal. Best I can tell, one’s economic standing and is hugely more important in race when it comes to how you are/will be treated these days.
And even when it comes to legal equality, there are practical limits. A rich guy can afford to hire a much better lawyer than a poor slob, regardless of race. Just ask the folks suing Cosby, or look at how OJ managed to get acquitted when tried for murder.
Racism is indeed prevalent throughout the nation, in many places it is in fact institutionalized as well. You can see that in the hiring practices of the Boston PD, as well as in Ferguson. That was not my point, at no time did Boston or Massachusetts as a whole make a declaration that their right to hold people as property was their right under statehood. South Carolina did, Georgia did, Texas did. Are you suggesting that the State Flag of Wisconsin was tied to a statement of government sanctioned ownership of other humans? I would not think you would make that correlation, from what little I know of you Hondo on this board. There is a huge difference between state sanctioned ownership of other people and racism inherent to a local PD or a local community. I’ve said it before in all my time in the South I loved every minute of it and enjoyed every person I met and I never once saw a member of the KKK. I had to come back to New England and join the CT ARNG and be called up to Scotland Connecticut to see a KKK rally. No matter how we wish to slice or rewrite history the state flags of some southern flags are synonymous with their actions 155 years because those flags haven’t changed much. When blacks couldn’t drink from the same fountain or ride in the front of the bus, that wasn’t in New England no matter how much the South Boston crowd complained violently about busing. Those state flags were flying when blacks couldn’t eat at the same lunch counter in the south because the law allowed that discrimination to take place. I am surprised that you would suggest because racism exists in South Boston that absolves the state governments of the south from systemic, organizational racism that was legally defined to allow separate dining, bathroom and drinking facilities. That Boston was wrong for its racism doesn’t make either Boston guilt free or any of the southern states guilt free who had to be compelled under the law to… Read more »
That was not my point, VOV.
My point was that racism is systemic and a part of the human condition, not something that’s regional. Your comments seemed to be implying the latter. Frankly, you sounded much like a Northern liberal from New England lecturing the “backwards” South about the ills of segregation – while living in a racially segregated neighborhood and sending their kids to a private school. (Sorry, but regardless of your intent that’s precisely how you were coming across above.)
Is the Confederate flag offensive? To many, yes. So is the Cross, or the Star of David, or the US flag. Do we mandate that those be removed those from public view as well, lest someone be offended?
If not – why not? And if so, who gets to decide which speech and/or symbols are permitted – and which are verboten?
Yes, the Confederate flag can be offensive. And yes, slavery was a great wrong; ditto the Jim Crow era. But last time I checked, our freedoms don’t include never seeing something that might p!ss you off. That includes our own history – which I’d prefer not to see given an Orwellian “rectification”, thanks.
Santayana’s quote about the fate of those who forget history seems apropos here. We forget our own history at our own peril.
Apologies for sounding like a Massachusetts liberal…good lord man that’s a hard shot…and one I must make amends for immediately.
If the people of South Carolina’s duly elected leaders come to the conclusion that a flag associated with their state’s decision to go to war with the Union over the right to own slaves is no longer appropriate, however they came to the decision I can respect it.
If they decide they will continue to fly that flag because they don’t believe that their secession statement and the flag have anything in common with their flag so be it. They certainly can decide that regardless of whether some perceived liberal northerner like me likes it or not…
Just like everything else in America some will disagree with it either way.
You equate the private actions of bigots (us know it all northerners who lecture the south while sending kids to private schools) as being equal to the public actions of a government that legally allows an apartheid state to exist inside its borders.
I would argue those are not at all the same thing and should be separated whenever possible.
Private and personal racism can’t be stopped without a long term generational education approach. And maybe not even then, the more I see our nation divide into a diversity of culture instead of a melting pot of assimilation the less convinced I am that racial harmony or cultural tolerance is even a realistic outcome over the long term. Too many variants of the hyphenated American for my liking.
Having said that, the difference between private and state racism is that state sponsored racism can be stopped through the courts in an instant (at least from the point the state no longer supports it) and enforced with the power of the police or national guard as appropriate.
Not trying to hit below the belt, friend. But that was my perception – possibly inaccurately.
I’m mostly in agreement with what you say here. Only counterpoint I have is that the state-run, legally sanctioned component of US racism ended in the 1960s. However, some people still seem to think the government needs to step in and “level the playing field”.
Unfortunately, on analysis what that turns out to mean is “give those whose grandfathers or great-grandfathers were targets of state discrimination decades ago special advantages today”. We see the result today in various state-sanctioned affirmative action programs and set-asides – as well as in demands for special consideration, claims that “you just can’t understand”, demands to accept nonstandard language as normal, and so on.
Such recommendations and positions are IMO just as thoroughly wrong as was Jim Crow. If it was wrong to discriminate against someone due to race or ethnicity under Jim Crow, it’s just as wrong to do so in their favor today. Giving one racial or ethnic group special privileges or advantages today of necessity means members of some or all other races or ethnicities are put at a corresponding disadvantage. There’s no way around that.
Equality and freedom should mean exactly that: you’re treated equally, and are free to succeed – or fail – based on your own ability. It doesn’t mean giving you an “in” because your great-grandfather was mistreated by someone who died 40 years ago.
It doesn’t mean giving you an “in” because your great-grandfather was mistreated by someone who died 40 years ago.
In this area we are solidly in agreement..
I did not take your comment about liberal personally, it made look at what I said and realize I had not explained myself well and sounded like a lot of half wits here in the PRoM which I need to be aware of as it appears that level of stupid might be contagious…thanks as always for a great discussion….
I have a feeling if you’re ever up this way we’d get a lot of adult beverages downed while solving the issues of the nation..
Except every single secession statement included the right to own slaves as the reason those slaveholding states were not going to remain in the Union.
It was all about slavery and the right of states to determine that holding slaves as property was their right to decide and their right alone.
It was and it wasn’t. The average Johnny Reb under Lee, Cleburne, and Beauregard was too poor to own slaves anyway and believed he was fighting against an overreaching and tyrannical federal government. The average bluecoat may have claimed Preserving the Union, Freeing the Slaves, or some combination of the two. Both sides also had thrill-seekers and “I’m just here for the benefits” guys as well. Both sides had good arguments. But the bottom line is that it all started because Southern Democrat slaveholders got butthurt that an abolitionist Republican got elected. They decided to spin it into a States’ Rights thing to gain broad support among Southern abolitionists and the large number of Southrons who didn’t give a shit if a bunch of old-money pricks got to keep their slaves or not. Yes, some slaveowners were very good to their slaves (others not so much, obviously), and some upper-middle-class folks owned only one or two (they were expensive as FUCK). And some were like Robert E. Lee, who didn’t like slavery, didn’t want slaves, but inherited them with the Arlington House estate from his father-in-law (George Washington’s grandson) along with a shit-ton of outstanding debt, and wanted to keep his wife happy. Northerners who fought to preserve the Union were fighting against a regime that split said Union because they thought they might lose their ability to own people as property. Some states, like Virginia, seceded because they felt Lincoln’s expansion of the Army to suppress the rebellion was provocative. Lee himself said (as quoted in “Gods and Generals”), “I never thought I would live to see the day that a President of the United States would raise an army to invade his own country.” That still put them on the side of the assholes. The Cherokee joined the Confederacy because they were still pissed about the Trail of Tears (not that I blame them). Same story. Robert E. Lee, James Peter Longstreet, Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson, George Pickett, Lewis Armistead, and Patrick Cleburne were among the greatest Americans who ever lived (Nathan Bedford Forrest may have been a genius,… Read more »
Nicely put Whitey
Always worth mentioning that Ulysses S. Grant (or more accurately, his wife) owned more slaves than Robert E. Lee, and only released them upon the passage of the 13th Amendment.
Also worth mentioning that Lincoln himself frequently stated that the war was not over slavery, at least initially:
“I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.”1
He only turned to stating that it *was* when the Union armies were having their conceptive butts handed to them:
http://abrahamlincolnsclassroom.org/abraham-lincoln-in-depth/abraham-lincoln-and-slavery/
Then, when he announced the Emancipation Proclamation, there were widespread protests, riots in New York, and resignations by Union officers:
https://books.google.com/books?id=IW5wAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=union+officers+resigned+over+the+emancipation+proclamation&source=bl&ots=kYuiS4g9Bq&sig=5EhM0Z9Ufdxt-6iHwvrCOv4-dB0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cV-MVc3KIYyqyATM4J64Cg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=union%20officers%20resigned%20over%20the%20emancipation%20proclamation&f=false
Also worth mentioning is the fact that while Lincoln was widely-known to be an Abolitionist, he had made no specific promises or plans to that end, or done much of anything at all, when South Carolina seceded. They were hurling labels like “tyrant” and “usurper” at him when he hadn’t even made a move towards doing what those slaveholding agitators feared. Lincoln was fairly elected according to the rules enumerated in the same Constitution South Carolina and other seceding states had ratified, but their guy didn’t win, so they pretty much said, “Fuck you guys. I’m taking my ball and going home!”
Their spin machine was active and effective, but the fact remains that Lincoln might not have accomplished–or even tried–anything regarding the “Peculiar Institution” had they not decided to split.
And for the record, I like the Southern Cross Flag, have a couple in my house, and think its actual meaning is worthy of remembrance. It was NEVER the official flag of the Confederate government (and all the shit it stood for), and most Confederate soldiers never even laid eyes on it until decades after the war was over. You bet your ass I’ll never tolerate a display of the Stars & Bars or the Bonnie Blue Flag outside of a historical setting. But then again, I actually study history instead of trusting Hollywood.
Absolutely correct on all points.
Another point to mention is why the “Southern Cross” got to be the symbol of the Confederacy in the first place. Some years after the war, the Union and Confederate veterans began to hold joint reunions, and at the fourth one (2-4 July, 1887, at Gettysburg) Union veterans strongly protested the Confederate national flags some Confederate groups were displaying. The battle flags, mostly square with the well-known “Southern Cross” pattern, on the other hand were viewed as fitting symbols of defeated but honorable adversaries.
Interesting that now the situation has reversed, with loud cries to rid the nation of even the slightest memory of the Southern Cross, while Georgia’s new state flag, for one example, has the same pattern as the ill-regarded Confederate 1st National Flag. Ignorance of history is such an inconvenient thing.
No flag can be racist on it’s own. It becomes a racist statement based on the person waving it or displaying it. The American flag becomes a racist symbol if the assclown waving it is wearing a white sheet and burning a cross. It’s an inanimate object, banning it won’t do a damn thing except piss people off.
I am beginning to feel like I live in Jonestown. I can see what’s coming, and there doesn’t appear to be any way out — the people in charge of the place appear to be hell-bent on destroying us, voluntarily if possible and by force if necessary.
Fuck these guys. The same people who blame a flag, the gun, or whatever else they come up with other than the sick piece of shit that actually did the act are the same fucking mouth-breathers who’ll be wringing their hands and crying that he’s being put to death.
Fuck him, and fuck them.
You are right that half the white folks decided it was time to end that abomination of slavery and try and kill the other half to get it done…a war with wounds deep and some of which appear to not have healed all that well.
Disassociated youth lacking social skills often find their way to the dark recesses of the internet, whether white supremacists or ISIS wannabees.
I do not believe Mr. Roof has created any more animosity in the US than was there the day before. What I do believe is that Mr. Roof was able to give the left something else to occupy their rage du jour over issues unrelated to what actually happened.
That it suits the meme of gun control is only because the little murderer didn’t know how to build a bomb. White hate groups have always managed to inflict their crimes upon the nation. I would argue they’ve done so far less often than the black drug gangs who routinely kill a few people every single day of the week usually in large urban areas over drugs. It’s apparently inappropriate to have a national discussion on race that involves addressing the reality of crime that is committed against blacks/hispanics by blacks/hispanics in large enough numbers to account for 95% of the murders in NYC and other major metropolitan areas.
Root’s hatred is easy to identify, it’s open, it’s ugly and it’s extremely obvious. That makes him and those ideas a simple target for the simpletons who talk about the news.
Nobody wants to talk about the complex issues surrounding the reality of life in the hood that makes killing a rival gang member of a street corner to sell crack or heroin a profitable life choice, because that’s uncomfortable and difficult and we all know that Americans don’t like to talk about difficult things. We’d rather worry about two idiots not serving gays in some dipshit community than the reality behind the bulk of the 14,000 murders that took place last year.
VOV. I agree with what you wrote immediately above, with the exception of the last paragraph. The daily shootings that occur in America’s cities, involving gang members and other denizens of the inner city, are not, in my view, avoided because their underpinnings are too difficult to ponder. Most of us simply don’t give a shit. In fact, I’d venture a guess that suburbanites and uptown folks are quite pleased that the street violence is concentrated in certain, nicely defined areas. Let the rabble do what they will, so long as it doesn’t affect me or mine. Who will admit this among those in the media focusing on a Confederate battle flag?
I agree with AirCav.
If it happened in Chicago, it’s the south side, or it used to be on the south side. As long as it stays in Englewood, nobody gives a damn.
If you are correct AC then for me it’s too bad we don’t give a shit about those people. We do have to deal with that reality somehow, I guess we’ve decided warehousing them in ever more violent prisons is better than addressing the reality of the issue.
I heard an interesting theory discussing the various reasons our crime rate has gone down so much since the 70s with respect to murder….all the usual comments were made about better policing techniques (which is what I thought was the main reason) and better community watch and technology. One of the more interesting views that was posited came from someone who made a simple statement that said abortion was the reason for the lower crime rate, they made the correlation that as crime started to drop in the 1990s it was because 20 years earlier abortion was legalized and now those would be criminals who nobody gives a shit about weren’t being born anymore to single moms who couldn’t care for them properly. They made a compelling case that the lack of low income males between the ages of 16-25 was a direct reason that crime was lower in a great many communities.
Maybe that’s a reason we should give a shit, because if we did maybe there’d be another round of kids who didn’t grow up to become killers and instead of being aborted maybe grew up to be productive and escape that geographical area that nobody gives a shit about….
Of course maybe we’ll all gather around and sing Kumbaya My Lord too. I’m not holding my breath, but less crime overall means less misery and less cost to our society all of which means a better life for most of us.
Interesting. I’ll be looking at that abortion/murder correlation. I don’t recall ever hearing that one.
I recall seeing it in Freakonomics. Also, here’s more on it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect
I don’t think that’s it, VOV.
I was able to find census demographics by age from 1980, 1990, 2000, and 2010 – and murder stats by year from 1960-2013. They don’t seem to support that thesis.
Assuming murder is essentially a urban “young male” problem is consistent with your theory. Let’s set “young males” to be 14-29.
Here are the numbers:
1980 – 23,040 murders; 40,439,000 young males
1990 – 23,440 murders; 38,377,000 young males
2000 – 15,586 murders; 40,398,000 young males
2010 – 14,772 murders, 43,534,000 young males
Urbanization and immigration (which is heavily skewed towards cities) has if anything increased the fraction of young males that are city dwellers. So if anything, that means we have more young urban males today than we ever have.
I think something else is going on. My guess would be that a much larger impact has been due to the general liberalization of concealed carry laws since 1986, which have allowed more honest citizens to protect themselves – effectively – against non-firearm wielding criminals. But I could easily be part.
Data sources were the Census Bureau website and “disastercenter.com” – but the latter claims to draw its data from FBI UCS statistics (didn’t have time to verify that).
Not my theory, just one I heard that I found interesting haven’t followed it yet.
I suspect it had more to do with more cops and stricter sentencing, I had never considered the abortion aspect but found the concept worth checking out. You’ve pointed me at some sources for consideration.
I did find it interesting that your fraction of young males increasing in the city statistic. That might mean that’s why the inner city murder rate is comprised primarily of hispanic immigrants and blacks living in projects. NYC stats indicate close to 92% of those killed were killed by the same race, black/hispanic while whites were next at 6% and asians a whopping 2% of the death toll. The specific neighborhoods where most homicides occur are also predictable.
Since those were lower income, subsidized housing situations also know for a higher prevalence of the statistical presence of abortion in the population the abortion theory had some interest to me. It may prove to be speculative only, as your preliminary research indicates.
Thank you as always for taking some of your personal time for this stuff. You are a fan of numbers as am I and I always find these kinds of discussions with you be informative and enjoyable!!!
🙂
Not to dispute any statistics, but the correlation to YUMs living in project housing hasn’t applied to Chicago since the projects were demolished in the early 2000s and the residents moved out into the neighborhoods.
The violent crime rates in the projects were higher than the violent crime rates in the neighborhoods. Now the violent crime rates in compromised neighborhoods has risen dramatically, especially since Mayor Rahm took office.
Not to get underfoot with your discussion, but just FYI — not only was abortion legalized, but birth control also became more effective and more available.
You are correct and perhaps they bear no correlation or perhaps they do in some way small or large.
It makes for interesting consideration in any event, and something I will likely review as my time starts to free up a little this summer.
Here’s a flag and cause that your Federal tax dollars do support:
http://amtrakridewithpride.com/pride-2015/
Well said Jonn! Now if we could clone your common sense into our political leaders it would be a great thing!
Might be easier to just kick the politicos out and put Jonn into office — but I can’t think of anything Jonn’s ever done to me that would warrant treating him that shabbily. 😉
I have a better idea: if anyone wants to be in politics, and gets elected to office, then he or she should be required to live in the neighborhoods that have the worst crime rates (regardless of gun stats/laws) until the end of their first term.
I only say this because when Jane Byrne was elected Mayor of Chicago, she was so disgusted with the criminal acitivty in Cabrini Green, a pressure-cooker high rise project on West Division Street, that she abruptly moved into it and stayed there until the building pests were killed off (roaches, not people) and the deaths by ‘accident’ stopped. The CPD would not go there unless they were forced to do so.
After she left the building, the thugs moved back in. She at least put her money where her mouth was, despite the Chicago Machine’s attempts to thwart her.
I’m going to put in my 2 cents’ worth in regard to slavery. Human trafficking, which includes forced (slave) labor, child pornography, and the sex trade, is alive and well and kicking its heels pretty damned high.
http://gvnet.com/humantrafficking/
From that website, a quote:
“Around the world, millions of people are living in bondage. They labor in fields and factories under brutal employers who threaten them with violence if they try to escape. They work in homes for families that keep them virtually imprisoned. They are forced to work as prostitutes or to beg in the streets, fearful of the consequences if they fail to earn their daily quota. They are women, men, and children of all ages, and they are often held far from home with no money, no connections, and no way to ask for help.
This is modern slavery, a crime that spans the globe, providing ruthless employers with an endless supply of people to abuse for financial gain. Human trafficking is a crime with many victims: not only those who are trafficked, but also the families they leave behind, some of whom never see their loved ones again.” – Author: Hillary Clinton.
Anyone besides me notice that her big mouth is shut on Roof’s rampage and the dustup that has followed it?
This link gives statistics and positions in the human trafficking trade.
http://gvnet.com/humantrafficking/00-Ratings.htm
Yes, it does go on in this country, too, in the form of sex trafficking, child trafficking, sweat shops, household help.
According to a friend of mine who is from Mexico, Mexico’s biggest industry is NOT the drug trade. It is child pornography.
These are not things I made up. They are facts.
When these screaming, angry jackasses decide to stop the human trafficking industry in its tracks, I WILL LISTEN TO THEM.
Until then, they can just shut the fuck up.
For those who want to read this little turd’s own words…
http://lastrhodesian.com/data/documents/rtf88.txt
An excerpt:
Patriotism
I hate the sight of the American flag. Modern American patriotism is an absolute joke. People pretending like they have something to be proud while White people are being murdered daily in the streets. Many veterans believe we owe them something for “protecting our way of life” or “protecting our freedom”. But im not sure what way of life they are talking about. How about we protect the White race and stop fighting for the jews. I will say this though, I myself would have rather lived in 1940’s American than Nazi Germany, and no this is not ignorance speaking, it is just my opinion. So I dont blame the veterans of any wars up until after Vietnam, because at least they had an American to be proud of and fight for.
“But I’m not sure what way of life they are talking about.”
Well, you murdering bastard, that would be the way of life that allows differences of opinion; a way of life that allows blacks and whites to live together or apart, as they choose; a way of life that allows people to go where they like and do what they like, so long as they do not harm others; a way of life that allows one to recognize and worship God or not, without fear of government reprisal; a way of life that allows folks to work, not to work, to attend school, and to pursue whatever licit occupation or profession they choose. I could go on, but you aren’t reading this, anyway, you piece of shit. If anyone wishes to emulate this murdering moron, let me suggest that you simply write down whatever it is your beef is, send it to the Washington Post, and then eat a bullet. I promise I’ll read about your beef.
A film started the “riot”, that got four Americans killed in Benghazi. A picture of Roof with Confederate flag in hand, wearing a Golds Gym shirt, got nine Americans killed in a church.
Everybody is so busy blaming this that or the other, none of them figures out that it was this asshats own fault and failure of ….*peronal responsibility*
“personal responsibility”
Unlike some people whose families actually WERE directly involved in the slave trade in the very recent past, mine has never been involved with human trafficking. Well, there was a brief moment in history when northern abolitionists “bought” slaves for the sole purpose of freeing them, and during that time my ancestors played the game. They never quit fighting against slavery in the general sense but also engaged in more practical, immediate actions which resulted in the freeing of many people from slavery. Of course, most northern states put an end to the practice as soon as it became evident. Seems that most Yankees were at least (if not more) racist than were the Rebs.
Well … at least the Confederate “First National” flag still flies in Georgia (with the addition of the state seal).
http://www.usflagstore.com/v/vspfiles/photos/60-100-10255-3.jpg
I’m certain I can still display the real “Stars and Bars” without anyone being offended because most people don’t recognize it when they see it; they think the Confederate battle flag is the “Stars and Bars”.
Around seven of my direct-line ancestors were in the Confederate infantry and cavalry; not one of them were slave holders. They fought like any other soldier in the world: because their country called them; then, while in battle, they fought for their brothers-in-arms.
Don’t blame me for slavery. My family didn’t get here till 1880
Same here, one relative on my dad’s side fought in the 7th Michigan Cavalry, my mom’s side of the family didn’t get here until 1891.
The only part of my family that was living in America at the time sent their sons to fight for a guy named Thomas Francis Meagher. And as far as we know, they all survived Marye’s Heights (fuck you very much, Ambrose Burnside).
Still on my “other minority” kick:
If I’m supposed to be ashamed of my past because other “white” people owned slaves over 150 years ago, are the “black” folks equally ashamed of their ancestor’s part in government sanctioned genocide?
To wit:
9th Cav
10th Cav
24th Inf
25th Inf
Otherwise known as the Buffalo Soldiers.
Another laughable moment here in Sorrytonio. Folks now want to change the name of a public school – Robert E. Lee school.
They say the precedent was set 1992 when they renamed Jefferson Davis school after a “prominent” civil rights activist.
His name: Stonewall Jackson Davis.
Can’t make this shit up.
To follow up on Jonn’s original point, Commander Salamander shows us what Reverend Goff of the Emanuel AME Church of Charleston had to say last Sunday:
http://www.cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2015/06/this-may-be-all-i-have-to-say-about-that.html
It ain’t the flag, it’s the asshole using it to stir shit up whether it’s who the libs bawl about or the snotnosed candyassed white guilt liberals. I have Civil War Ancestors who were Union, but I have no quips or qualms with those who have Confederate Ancestry that choose to fly their flag on certain days, I have issues with those flying it to stir shit up. These people grandstanding about this are tapdancing on others’ graves for publicity, making them attention whores in my view. Slavery? It’s still practiced today, look at the Christians in Sudan and other places that are sold as slaves if they aren’t murdered by the Muslims.
Quietly, not featured on the front pages of the Big Newspapers or the Nightly News with whoever it is that reads the news there, a curious thing is happening. Sales of Confederate battle flags have gone through the roof. Just google “Confederate flag sales” and see. Meanwhile, some of the, ahem, correct thinkers are busy vandalizing statues and climbing flagpoles to tear down flags they don’t like.