Ranger Women?
Needless to say, I’ve had tons of email about this article which reports that women will be attending a girls-only Ranger class. They’ve been allowed to be observer/controllers for a cycle and now they’re getting their own class of about 60 ladies. More power to them.
It’s going to be the worst nine weeks of their lives and there’s no guarantee that they’ll get a coveted Ranger assignment. In fact, most men who graduate from the course don’t get the assignment. Ranger School is a touchstone for most infantry officers, regardless of their follow-on assignments. Even Robert Bateman, the least infantryman in the world went to Ranger School. I think I’ve had only one platoon leader who wasn’t Ranger-qualified in Bradley platoons, if I remember correctly.
So right off the top, women are taking Ranger School slots that would ordinarily go to people who actually need them and will actually apply the skills that they hone in Ranger School on the field of battle. All for a big social experiment. So, that’s not a waste of dwindling dollars for defense, is it?
Honestly, I have no problem with women going to Ranger School, or serving in combat units or any of the current discussion. I don’t subscribe to the theory that it will effect morale or unit cohesion. I also don’t think that men won’t be able to control their urges. What concerns me, is that t will turn out like everything else the social engineers get their grubby hippie paws on – standards will fall, standards that have been proven in combat for more than two hundred years and that will cost lives needlessly.
See, I remember back when women were forced out of the service when they got pregnant. The social engineers forced the military to change, and it reached the point in 1991, when my unit deployed to Iraq that an entire ambulance platoon in our support battalion got pregnant and couldn’t deploy – most had abortions on the German economy after we left.
I had female cadets when I taught ROTC who I’m sure could pass the requirements for Ranger School – they were hard-asses – but they are the exception. The social engineers aren’t going to be pleased when only a hand full of women get their tabs and they’re going to demand changes to the standard. Not that any of the women advocating for those changes will actually go to the course, or lead soldiers in combat themselves so that they know what they’re talking about – it’s all about numbers and shoving their version of equality down society and DoD’s throat. Regardless of the lives that it costs – it’s all for the cause.
Category: Big Army
Amen! This failed social experiment called the U.S. Army is driving me nuts.
I’ll say this agian: How does this make the U.S military more proficient at killing the enemy. Jonn is right about taking slots away from the guys that need them most. These are coveted slots and there are not many of them. Newly minted infantry officers and Batt Boys usually get first dibbs. That doesn’t leave a whole lot of slots left. Then you got the LRSD guys as well. They will be taking the slots away from deserving candidates and for what; a social experiment.
I think the gals who have what it takes deserve a chance to prove it . I wish this would have been an option for me when I was young enough.
Make an entrance test so that only the worthy will be selected. This way the number of slots for schooling wont be drastically affected?
Granted, I am a civilian and probably don’t have a clue. My experiences with deployments was at home waiting for hubby to come home. Although, Tuesday, my son swears in @ MEPS.
Congratulations on your son’s swearing in, me 2, and on reaching this point!
For the record these women weren’t just handed these slots like candy.
The women had to qualify according to the same PT standards as men (5 miles in 40 minutes, SU/PU, water test, etc.).
I wonder if 1st Sgt Moerk will be there?
Handing out ARCOMs like candy…
Probably not. It’s probably hard for her to be somewhere that she isn’t in charge and has nobody to berate.
And no Generals to suck medals out of.
And no internet to paTroll.
Climb To Glory…I agree. How does any of this help us kill people and break things in the most efficient, expedient manner possible? Jonn wrote, “What concerns me, is that this will turn out like everything else the social engineers get their grubby hippie paws on – standards will fall, standards that have been proven in combat for more than two hundred years and that will cost lives needlessly.” Of this, I have no more doubt in my mind than I do that my tires will eventually wear out and I’ll need new ones. It is a given. Once the MANY females graduate the women’s only course will they be assigned to women’s only Ranger units or intermixed? I guess I don’t give two rat’s asses if an individual is male or female, red or yellow, black of white, as long as they ALL meet the SAME long held and most important, PROVEN standards for Rangers. But in my experience of the self proclaimed. “socially elite” no nothings, putting their manicured, lotion softened hands onto anything regarding the military it is going to have one and ONLY one effect in the long term. More troops will die than is already necessary in combat. It is a terribly high price to pay for these social elitists to force onto others when they themselves never even see harm’s way. But I am sure it makes great Washington D.C. cocktail party talk. Meanwhile, perhaps at the same moment, a soldier, male or female just lost their life in a far away shithole, while these care for nothing but themselves, self serving ass holes are accepting a “here-here” toast for their foisted ideas of a “new age” leap into the “modern world of the military and warfare”. To end I will say this. God bless America. God bless and keep our troops as safe as possible. Protect them not only from the enemy they face ahead but enemies, more deadly and covert, that are behind them with hate and subversion here in our own country. As I have watched the recent issues unfold of… Read more »
We supported the Ranger Course Desert Phase at Dugway Proving Ground for a few years. My initial reaction to this was if they can pass the course without it being watered down give them the tab. I will defer to those who have served with a Ranger unit in combat to express any concerns about having a women on a mission. “Rangers Lead the Way”!!
“The social engineers forced the military to change, and it reached the point in 1991, when my unit deployed to Iraq that an entire ambulance platoon in our support battalion got pregnant and couldn’t deploy – most had abortions on the German economy after we left.”
This REALLY pisses me off more ways than I can count.
You and me, both.
I saw that more than a few times when female Soldiers came down on levy for Korea. Suddenly knocked up and out of the Army. Bumped into a couple once at the mall – “how’s the kid?” I ask. “Oh, I didn’t have it-I had to get an abortion.”
Uh-huh.
This way the exception however in my dealings with female Soldiers. Most were okay. Had 3 female Company Commanders also – 2 out 3 were okay, about the same ratio as my experience with male commanders.
I’m going to assume that the ramifications for the Army if none of the women complete the entire program won’t be the same as that of the USMC, who’ve yet to have a female complete the the course at Quantico’s Infantry School. Also, I don’t expect the same foolishness for the women that cause so many failures or recycles for the men (push-ups suddenly stop counting as good after 20, arbitrary event failures for “patrolling techniques, and other silliness). I’d also love to see the recycle plan for this class. They might be there until Christmas.
Again, to what military strategic end does this move towards?
The strategic end is the degradation and feminizing of our armed forces. Surely you don’t believe that the liberals and social engineers are interested in the best possible force to defend this country and our interests abroad, do you?
China, the Islamists, and our other enemies are loving this crap.
Bob, also the Women Marines are not rushing in great numbers to go any f the combat schools. The volunteers’s numbers are too low. I expect to see the female Marines ordered to attend these schools soon. Joe
Not quibbling here, but if the entire class is made up of and taught by women, how are they taking slots away from men?
That doesn’t jive.
I say give them a chance. If the standards aren’t lowered, that’s the true test. If the fail rate is comparable to the fail rate for men, what’s the problem?
The point was already made by Jonn that not everyone who passes the class goes on to Ranger duty.
Because of time constraints and resources, there are only so many Ranger School classes in a given year. This little dog and pony show reduces the number of males who can attend the school this year.
It isn’t going 5 be taught by women because there are no women as of yet qualified to teach it. The women “instructors” are just shadows of real Ranger Instrctors (RIs) there, I assume, to make sure women get a fair shake. Nothing more.
And to be able to back up the Army’s story that they held everyone to the same standard in the event there are 0 or few women graduates.
If they can hack it, more power to them. If they can’t and the government says the standards need to be changed, screw off.
I am outraged! A special class for women only? WTF is going on here. This is a step backwards. We need to get women into the regular training cycles that have been only male in the past.
Who knows what kind of asshattery is going on in these units? The egregious behavior of men when left to their own whims needs to be confronted and stopped.
It has been established by the highest echelons of the Army that proper social conduct takes precedence over merely killing the enemy. You people act like the most important thing in the military is just combat.
You people are so 90’s. Change with the times or get out of the way. There are countless women currently serving that will be disadvantaged if they are not give opportunities to receive career enhancing award s for stepping up and conducting on the spot corrections.
Jonn and the rest of you don’t seem to understand today’s Army and its mission. You are just out of touch with things.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/129759978@N02/16250121532/
Oh boy. ^
Please tell me this is a joke. This is a great joke right?
Exemplifying the highest standards of today’s military is never a joke. These ulta right wing extremists need on the spot correcting sometimes.
cc SMA
Nice. Give that man an ARCOM.
Am I right in thinking that in Dave’s case it should be a NAVCOM based on his branch of service?
He’s correcting the spots of the knuckle draggers in all of the forces. Give him one of these.
http://norbay.com/sites/norbay.com/files/imagecache/product_full/m0024.jpg
Ah, so that’s why Dave has been cc-ing everybody in the echelons above reality. He’s shooting for a Joint Services Commendation Medal,not a lowly ARCOM or NAVCOM.
But now the trolling Spec8 will have to widen her net into the other services as she WILL NOT be outdone when it comes to Blue Falconry.
The wise ass is STRONG within this one. 😀
Hey! I already got outta the way once by retiring. Would Australia be far enough if I gotta gets some more outta the way?
Why don’t they just do what I did and claim that they went?
https://thetruthaboutsocnetlies.wordpress.com/2012/03/05/john-giduck-did-not-provide-a-bio-claiming-to-be-an-army-ranger/
This approach made for easier, more sleep, and better food.
Along the same lines, I was really busy taking naps in Colorado when I claimed to be at the Beslan siege.
At least the faker part of my name is real.
sincerely
John “Faker 6” Giduck
Few thoughts:
1. If there is a large group female types that pass …
2. There should be a competion for the 12 hottest …
3. Then a calander shall produced entitled “The 12 Hottest Female Rangers” … I will buy that!
Neanderthal, knuckle dragging man, You are so offensive. How do you sleep at night. Stop this kind of behavior, or else. Dont make me start pacing.
cc DoD
Dave,
I 100% agree with you! Where do we order the calendar? Is it post paid?
I have one on pre-order. (for evidence only) Some former bubble head is doing the pictures. If this Chief Petty Officer thinks he can hide in his bunker and escape being held accountable, well we will see.
cc CNO
You mean Bernasty’s doing the photo shoot? I did not want a calendar he photo shot in a gay Portland bath house.
“Neanderthal, knuckle dragging man” …
Yes, that is me!
Now you have done it. With the current price of gas my attorney can afford to fill up his tank this time. Wait, is he doing the pictures? That might be a conflict of interest. I hope the PI doesn’t get hired to take pictures or it will turn out to be cheesy.
cc A P L
Pay no attention to my comment.
I am trying to learn how to put some spacing between my lines.
Is it working?
I guess I’ll find out when I hit the POST COMMENT button.
OK. I guess it worked.
Thank you for your time.
You are a “go” at this station. Please recover your gear and move on to the next one.
My apologies. I thought I was on the Weekend Open Thread post.
But after reading Jonn’s comment about the non-deploying ambulance platoon, that reminded me that the same thing happened on Fort Carson in the latter part of 1990 when the 43rd Support Group (a III Corps asset) was designated for deployment. Their Transportation/Maintenance companies suddenly exploded with an unexpected number of pregnant females and the hand wringing and finger pointing reached epic proportions.
Obviously, things have changed. We girls worked so hard to have the right to return to our jobs after maternity leave, and to actually get maternity leave without getting fired.
And now these weeniebutts abuse that privilege by IGP.*
Yeah, I am pissed off about that, too, because I was in the Navy at a time when you were expected to be ‘normal’ (whatever that is) but if you did something ‘normal’ like be a mom, you got fired for it. Lots of money was wasted on training people for specific jobs and then firing them for doing something ‘normal’.
I guess I’m just not as lazy as these silly broads are nowadays. Using sex as a way to get out of work? How tacky can you get? And how childish! Maybe that maternity leave for the military thingy should be rethought. However, the counter to this is that in the civilian work force, you can’t get out of doing your job just because you got laid and the egg collided with the sperm.
*intentionally getting pregnant
The “IGP” is (or was, during my time) strong in the Navy, too. I was in the last few months of EW school at Corry Station when the first females were allowed into the EW school. As a result, I knew most of the first ones in, and most of them were competent on operations side. The only real obstacle any of them had was having the upper body strength to load the MK36 decoy launchers.
Fast forward about two years and I’m in a follow-on school at FTCPAC, where I run into one of the ladies in the chow hall. I asked her where she had gotten orders, which turned out to be the Lincoln, due to deploy soon. So I ask if she’s looking forward to her first deployment. Her reply was that she wasn’t going, she was going to get pregnant so she could stay in San Diego with her boyfriend.
Needless to say, I was not amused.
Hard work and determination cannot change physical differences…no matter how much you rpar.
uʍop ǝpısdn pǝuɹnʇ sʇǝƃ ʇı ƃuıɥʇǝɯos ʇsod ı ǝɯıʇ ʎɹǝʌǝ
Are you in Bernasty’s airplane?
HE CAN’T BE, he still has fuel!!!
First off a disclaimer. I have never been to Ranger school and as a non combat Officer in the National Guard, I probably never will. My OCS class buddy served in 2/75 and we had many discussions about Ranger School and whether he thought people could hack it. One of the TAC Officers from OCS in Alabama, who pride themselves on being the 3rd hardest class in the Army. Instructors with SF tabs and Ranger tabs SAY Q course and Ranger school are the only things they have done harder than OCS. that backs up the fact that a female 1LT TAC officer smokes ALL the other TACS, and she’s 40 and she’s going to the first female Ranger school. My buddy Ranger called her a bad ass and easily capable of passing Ranger School, and that was before she started training.
All well and good. Now explain to me how this will improve the Army’s ability to kill the enemy and blow things up in an efficient manner.
The same way all female Apache crews do. I wouldn’t say it’s a matter of improving the way we kill the enemy. Does having an division airborne capable increase the ability to kill the enemy, even the cooks and morticians? The fine gentlemen at Ranger up call it a leadership course. On the same note, a incredible pt man I know is going to the next Ranger class and he’s a Signal NCOIC. A large majority of every class is newly commisioned officers who are destined for regular Army. If female Soldiers can achieve the standard, why not give them the opportunity to excel?
Kris, not a good comparsion.Helo crews do not walk 10 to 30 klicks with obsene loads on their person and are expected to kill the emeny. I am now “Old Corps|and so are you too Dave}. WhenI was in,NO Women aboard ships of the line,Nurses on the hospitals ships.Maybe some at inland Med Batts, never saw any while flying in and out.
I’m not entirely sure how the pipeline is actually working for this thing. They initially had over 160 volunteers. But that was too many to process. They then said 60 would attend the course. Is the 60 the estimate for how many that 160+ would be able attend after pre-Ranger?
or
Is the 60 the current amount of competitive applications that was dwindled down at the unit level? The 60, in question, that has to attend pre-ranger? The final tally probably being considerably smaller when the course starts in April. The PR has been very confusing.
From what I have read, and with a little math.
There are 160ish qualified volunteers.
120 get to attend one of three pre-ranger classes (each command will do its own OML to determine who goes to pre ranger).
The top 60 graduates of pre ranger get a school seat/slot.
How does that work though? Ifs pre-ranger is pass/fail. You either hit the cumulative point total or you don’t. You can’t deny someone who can hit those requirements. Likewise, you can’t push someone through who fails the standard.
Not unless there is some fuckery.
Also, I would LOVE to see the form of those pushups those 160 candidates. Willing to bet only tiny amount of them do them correctly.
If standards are upheld, that will washout a shitload of them.
Remember the APFT pre-briefing that if you are not doing the push up you do an about face and do not observe the soldier doing the exercise. That way you cant second guess the grader. But they already have a Female observer that can do basic math for that.
Just because it is pass/fail doesn’t mean that they can’t come up with an OML for the 60 slots. Units do it all the time (i.e. send 4 people to pre-ranger even though there are only two slots).
Pre-Ranger has some historic data for pass/fail that they can correlate to APFT and other things (MOS or duty position). Without knowing personally what that data is, my experience and gut tells me that 1/2 (60 of 120) making it through pre-ranger looks about right to me.
Yeah, but doesn’t that make a potential scenario where you may be taking a women who may have failed pre-ranger but she is the is one of the best candidates out of the pool of women? That they need to hit that number of 60?
It also stands to reason(judging from Marine SOI and ITB) that the female attrition rate could perhaps be significantly higher than the male attrition rate at pre-Ranger? Male attrition rate is about 50 percent for pre-Ranger. Isn’t there a serious chance the female attrition rate be perhaps 70-90 percent?
Are you implying that they are creating a different OML perimeters for female candidates than the male ones?
Btw, I’m not trying to be argumentative or a contrarian. I’m trying to get a firm grasp on this.
From what I read in previous statements, if they don’t pass pre ranger they don’t go to the school.
Given that the pre ranger pool is 120 they should get at least 60 to pass.
If they don’t, no big deal (well unless you were one of the 40 who didn’t get to go), they’ll just fill the slots with folks from the ATTRS wait list. Happens all the time at every school.
Sergeant Lilyea:
Where did you get that color photograph of that VERY seductive Rangerette?
I want to see a larger version.
Is that from a Hollywood movie?
Of course, I’m just another ordinary guy who can’t control his urges.
Welcome to the club…
I still remember the pride I had in being Platoon Guide while going through boot and Ft. Leanardwood MO. B 2/47. We were part of the Clinton years “Mixed Training Companies.
We won every streamer and dominated every evolution. I don’t think I was any kind of superman. I was just older than most of my fellow boots and had already worked as a street and E.R. Medic for several years. That helped me understand how to get tasks done and I tried to pass this on to my fellow boots.
I also remember that two days before graduation, when we were cleaning gear and rehearsing for our cerimony our C/O pulled up in her green Mustang with a rainbow bumper sticker and informed our Senior Drill Istructor that there “WILL BE A FEMALE MARCHING THIS PLATOON ACROSS THE STAGE. THAT IS THE POINT OF THIS COMBINED COMPANY”.
I was summarily removed from the Platoon Guide position and replaced with the worst female in the class. (I had carried her ruck strapped to my chest to get her through the last road march). Our Sr. Drill received Drill Of the Cycle for our accomplishments and the PVT. Female Plt. Guide was given an ARCOM and one pay grade promotion for outstanding leadership.
Our Lt. pulled me aside after the graduation cycle and showed me a certificate he had printed up on his computer as some type of condolence for what he knew was wrong. He put it in my records jacket but they just tore it out at my A school and tossed it in the trash. That set the tone for my ARMY career. I never regreted my service at any time, even then.
I still remember the look on my Sr. Drill’s face when he received that order. He had been at 10th Mtn and I’m surprised that the look in his eyes didn’t melt the Cpt. where she stood.
So this CO had a “rainbow” bumper sticker on her car? Sounds like she was part of the group that the “don’t ask, don’t tell” concept was made for…
“that women will be attending a girls-only Ranger class. They’ve been allowed to be observer/controllers for a cycle and now they’re getting their own class of about 60 ladies. More power to them. ”
If they want to be Rangers, they shouldn’t have their own special class. Mix them in with the men.
Yeah, this concept certainly seems to be sending an unusual message.
As I recall, a group of nine learned men determined – unanimously – over 60 years ago that “separate but equal” wasn’t really equal at all. I believe the exact language they used was “. . . ‘separate but equal’ has no place. Separate educational facilities are inherently unequal“. (emphasis added) I guess I missed the applicable “nuance” that makes “separate but equal” both acceptable and a good idea here.
Or maybe there isn’t any such “nuance”. If so, this is little more than a sham designed to produce a predetermined outcome.
Maybe they are training to attend a “Women Only” War????
When 90% quit AND fail within the first 36 hrs. (a conservative call) and the remainder fail in the next 6 days…an investigation will be enacted on the “sexist-misogynist Ranger School. Instructors will be second guessed (ALA Gen. Remo “no swim Butler”). EVERY interaction will be second guessed and interpreted that the instructors were coerced to flunk the females, when in fact they were encouraged to look the other way and pass them. The rucksack weight and stopwatch will be showed that they couldn’t hack it and the standards will then be shitcanned to allow diversity. Kumbaya!
Oh wait… This class is a set up. Never mind. Pink Tabs for the grads with tampon strings for those who quit in battalion. The strings will be pulled to remove the tab when they RTU.
The “standards” have already changed.
“they get their own class of about 60”.
I suspect gays and transgenders will have their “special” ranger class too.
Not necessary to have a separate class for the women. Pass the course and qualify. On the battle field no one gives a shit if your a man or women. Can you be depended upon to do what needs to be done to kill the enemy and protect your buddies ass… And accomplish your mission. Are you willing to make what ever sacrifices it takes to do that. If not stay home. This shit is not a game for social experiments.
Sorry… but what I’m about to say will come across as very chauvinistic and sexist.. but it’s just the truth based on my experiences.
I was in 2 different branches, totaling more than 10 but less than 20 years.
Beginning in the very early 80s came the push to put more women into “non-traditional” specialties; mechanical, engineer, signal, munitions, etc.( as opposed to the “traditional” female military roles such as administrative, finance, post hospital jobs, and such. In other words, mostly non-deployment, non-combat roles).
Well, in my opinion the experiment didn’t work too well. SO many of the women in the non-traditional jobs were not competent, and really didn’t want to be in those jobs. Most of them wormed their way into the orderly room, supply, NBC room, inspection shop, etc. Many got pregnant, couldn’t do PT, and were non-deployable. Others seemed to be on never-ending profile and couldn’t do PT. Yet all were getting paid to NOT do the jobs they were enlisted/needed for, and leaving their units/shops short-manned, though the MTO&E showed unit/shop as fully-manned for a particular MOS.
And us men had to pick up the slack and do the heavy lifting (literally and figuratively).
And now some want to be Rangers? Even if there are 2 or 3 that can do it, held to the same standards as men, it is still an absurd experiment which will not further the readiness or abilities of our forces one iota.
The experiment
The smart thing to do would completely scrap the lower requirements females in the no military are held to for a few decades and if that works out go to something even more difficult.
Instead it’s decades of lower standards and suddenly the poor myth that they’ll be held to the same standards this time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98G_xIPSgXA&feature=youtu.be US Rangers Combat School – 1 of 9 No Hollywood in this footage.
Forget about Ranger School. When are they going to drop the male-only requirement from this:
If you are a man ages 18 through 25 and living in the U.S., then you must register with Selective Service.
That will change if and when Congress decides to change 50a USC 453. Until then, only male US residents are subject to the draft.
I think the Army jumped the gun here. Before I say what I have to say know this: I have one of the first female Ranger candidates working with me. She is outstanding and tough. She has everything it takes to make it through and I support her 100 percent and then some in her endeavor. BUT, as I stated before… the Army should have taken a step back and said “Hey, could we use females more in Ranger or SF?” In my opinion females could be invaluable to SF units because of their unique mission set. SFADTs, Multi-Function teams, etc… I’m sure some females would make incredible snipers based on the fact that most have a more steady hand and more patience than males. But I see nothing they bring to Regiment being of use. Just my opinion. Make them fine-tuned Green Berets but leave them out of Regiment which is largely kinetic.
SFATs* Sorry… Been drinking a little bit since I have tomorrow off haha.
SFATs* Sorry… Been drinking a little bit since I have tomorrow off haha.
If the Marine Corps experiment with women in their Infantry Officer school is any indicator of how this will go for the Army, look for an 86% drop rate… on day 1.
Also, clicked on the article for the chick in the picture, am disappoint there isn’t a bigger version here.
They are not getting their own class. They are breaking the 160 down to 40 per for the next 4 Warrior Training Center Ranger Assessments at FT Benning. Those who pass will attend Ranger School in April. As of now the standards have not been changed. Also the Observers have not had an entire class to observe.