Heavy troops seeking liposuction?
Several of you have sent us links to the story going around about troops who might have problems making their tape going to doctors to get liposuction to cure what ails them.
A number of military personnel are turning to the surgical procedure to remove excess fat from around the waist so they can pass the Pentagon’s body fat test, which can determine their future prospects in the military.
“They come in panicked about being kicked out or getting a demerit that will hurt their chances at a promotion,” said the Rockville, Md., surgeon.
Some service members say they have no other choice because the Defense Department’s method of estimating body fat is weeding out not just flabby physiques but bulkier, muscular builds.
Yeah, I don’t think it’s as widespread as the article implies. And I’m pretty sure that it’s not combat troops who are looking for ways to get around the wide body control measures. How many combat units are there around Rockville, MD (a DC suburb)? I think these doctors are turning anecdotal incidences into a news article. But that’s never happened before, has it?
Category: Military issues
I know a guy in the MD Army National Guard (175th Infantry) who is short, and a built like a bulldozer. He frequently says that the way “taping” measures body fat puts him at a disadvantage because his height is too short for his weight, or something like that.
Maybe some day the Dept of Dumbasses will figure out that size and body fat are not the same thing.
Fat is mostly water. It takes up more room than muscle which is protein.
You can weigh 150 lbs and be a tub of lard and a size 22, or you can weigh 150 lbs and fit into a pair of size 10 jeans.
I’d like to see what happens when some really ripped and cut body builder show up for that idiocy.
I’ve long thought that the Army’s height/weight tables and tape test were nothing more than appearance control measures. If a guy/gal is hefty and can still do what’s required of them physically, I’ve got no problem with them serving. If they can’t hack it, their chain-of-command should “encourage” them to shape up with additional training – and if they still can’t, process them for reclassification or separation.
The key is that they be able to actually do what’s required of them in their assigned MOS and duty position. That means we’d need physical testing that actually measures what’s required for each MOS/group of related MOSs. And they almost certainly wouldn’t all be the same. Or maybe a base PFT plus MOS-specific add-ons.
The Army doesn’t want to do that. But it wants an Army that “looks good”. Ergo, we end up with a “one-size fits all” solution that does little more than ensure that soldiers “look good” to an extent. IMO, it doesn’t really do that good a job of measuring the ability of an individual to perform physically, or in combat. But it does ensure that units look reasonably good on the parade field.
Case in point: I served with a guy during the early 1980s who could run about a 6:00-6:15/mile pace for at least 10k. He was 6′ 3″ – and around 210 lbs. He was damned close each time he weighed in, and he didn’t look like your typical “flat-bellied, steely-eyed killer”. But he was damn sure in shape.
Ex-PH2: bodybuilders end up failing the Army screening weight. In general, they end up passing the tape test – because they typically have a very large neck and a proportionally smaller waist.
However, powerlifters – who tend to have larger waists – sometimes have issues with both.
Obesity in our society is now at epidemic proportions. The military does represent society in many areas, and unfortunately, this is one example. The BDUs of yesteryear and today’s ACUs hide the “banjo bellies” of a lot of soldiers. Put the picture of the above Marine in the old pickle suit fatigue or khaki uniform….see the results/outrage then!
With a draw-down (aka RIF), military (and civilian) education, PT tests, height/weight standards are the first line for getting rid of troops. Seen this type of action a few times over the years. It is a cyclical process. With technology (liposuction) a quick fix can be the solution to chronic “biscuit poisoning.” Remember…these troops know better, if not, shame on their commanders.
Ex-PH2, sadly, they have and at least in the Army some are out. The fact that muscle is more dense than fat and that the ripped and fit will weigh more means nothing to the paper pushers. Feh. These are the same types as are pushing uniformity in all things, including having everyone in a unit go out with all the same kit in the same place, even turret gunners… Discussion on that and link to a really good article everyone should read on “electrocuting the dog” up at laughingwolf.net. The problem there is the same as here, how do we fight the idiocy other than trying to shame AFTER they toss good people out?
Using a tape measure to determine BMI is completely wrong. I don’t understand that idea. If you want accurate BMI measurements, you use a caliper, which measures a pinch of skin, usually from the side of the abdomen.
So what the Army is doing is encouraging eating disorders and psychological dysfunction.
I’d be willing to be it’s some slovenly desk jockey who thinks that a size 10 (now a size 6) from the 1970s is fat. Yeah, that’s real smart.
Whoever came up with this crap needs to be educated.
I was put on the fat boy program a year after being in and i realized that it was on me. I basically did two-a-days every other day and ate like a vegan. I know that it isn’t easy for some but you have to battle all the time.
But of course, if you have a little paunch but can nail the 400 yard target with ease (something i was never good at)the Army et al would be doing a disservice to the Nation if solely places emphasizes on weight on whether to kick someone out.
@2: My roommate was 6’3″ and weighed 240 lbs. (he played linebacker at NC State) and he didn’t fit the height/weight chart, so they sent him to the doctor, who signed him off for 300 lbs. (he had 7% body fat), because the BMI showed him to be a lean, mean, fighting machine.
As for the pic in this thread; please tell me that’s a SV wannabe and not a real troop. When I was in, no one would have been allowed to get to that point. They would have been on the fatboy program and if that didn’t work, they would have been jettisoned, PDQ. It didn’t matter who you were, you did NOT look like Mr. Sta-Puft in cammies, period.
The Ht/Wt standards are not the problem, though they may need some tweaking. The problem is two folds (intentional): One is that Americans have been told that being fat should be accepted, for several decades. The propaganda has been so effective that today, more than 30% of the population isn’t just fat, but clinically obese. The second fold is that the tape test is not an accurate measure of body fat percentage. The Army has always known this. I don’t know if it is true today, but it was in the 80’s, that if a Soldier wished to contest the tape test findings, they would be given a water displacement test, which is accurate and was final. There are very few Soldiers put out (on BF%) of the Army that aren’t actually fat. There are some, but there are far more that are fat but instead learn techniques to cheat the tape test into passing. As to the suggestion that REMF MOS’s should be allowed to be fat, BS. REMF MOS’s need to be reminded and to be taught to be Warriors first, because when that convoy is attacked or the FOB is attacked the enemy does not excuse all the non-11B’s off the battlefield. No one has a “right” to have a job in the military. It is a responsibility to defend the Nation’s Citizens in the most intense life or death arena of combat. Those that accept that responsibility should not have to pick up the slack of those that think they’re entitled to the check but not the requirements to be ready for that responsibility. One should not have to train to be able to carry the 300lb man that gets wounded, who in turn does not train and cannot drag the 150lb woman out of the kill zone, while others are allowed to be the slack that does not and cannot do the heavy lifting. What each does have a Right to, is to be held to THE standard, and not be discriminated against for that which is outside the standard. Ht/wt standards are just the… Read more »
The Army used to have a Master Fitness Trainer Course that taught us to be personal trainers for the fatties. I still have my calipers for measuring BMI. But then they went to the tape thing, and they made weight management a personal thing. There are a lot of (dangerous) misconceptions when it comes to weight control, especially for a bunch of high school kids who’ve never been out in the world while their metabolism slows. I know I learned a lot from my course (as well as earned 7 college credits and a science lab). The Army did it right once, they need to dust off the lessons they learned twenty years ago.
@11
John…you (and I) will be happy to know the Army is bringing the MFT course back
Yes, O-4E, I am glad that they’re bringing it back. It was one of the best things that ever happened to me. My troops weren’t so happy about it, but when is Joe ever happy?
I remember when the Army first started their weight control program in the late 70s and they made it all waiverable, so fatties got fatter – until we got Reagan and then they started booting a lot of Vietnam experience. Everyone was surprised when the Carter-era waivers didn’t count anymore.
I served with a Samoan guy from Hawaii, Sgt. Kaina. He was your typical Samoan, short and stocky as hell. He had to have his BDU’s specially tailored to get his ginormous guns to fit. Needless to say, he always failed weigh in and had to get taped. He never had a problem with taping but he was a gunner for god sakes….he practically had to be pried out of the gunners seat with a shoe-horn…
The AF had some serious issues at one time, especially in the ANG (want to say mid to late 90’s??), and people WERE being put out for not meeting the new, unreasonable standards. We figured out that only anorexic distance runners could pass the test, and that most of us would be dangerously unhealthy is we even attempted to meet those standards. So we didn’t. I understand that some docs got through to the powers that be that skinny does not necessarily relate to being healthy for the vast majority of the force.
That’s one surgical procedure I wouldn’t mind seeing outlawed. It’s dangerous and unnecessary, and temporary. You WILL put the fat back on after having this done if you don’t get your life habits in line afterwards.
There is a massive difference between being skinny and being physically fit.
I do know of one field grade officer that had lipo done before his next promotion board- this would have been about ’94 or ’95 at Fort Riley. I was always being taped, at 6’02, 230 lbs with 19% body fat.
The entire concept of physical fitness in th Amry was ****ed and still is, IMHO. We should be training for combat- not a half marathon.
At 6′ and 230 Ilb for most of my last 5 years in the service, ya, I got taped bi-annually, it sucked. The only time in that time period where I was under 230 was in 2004 when we got back from Iraq, I came in at 2008, and STILL had to be taped. Ya, it sucked, lol.
I always got taped but passed.
This is sad.
The trooper in the photo above won’t be able to lipo 40lbs of fat off of his body…maybe if he’s got a really aggressive surgeon he might get 11 lbs in a single surgery (5liters tends to be the outpatient limit, but 5 liters of aspirate doesn’t translate directly to fat removed)…typically it’s less than 5lbs…for removals over that amount you typically need multiple surgeries… lipo is considered a contouring procedure by most surgeons not a weight loss procedure…
The Wt issue has been screwed up since they came out with it. It is supposed to be a way to drag out the out of shape service members and get them to work at it until they can pass the pft. The services have log lost sight of the physical performance aspect and zeroed in on the height/weight charts.
Those Ht/Wt charts don’t take into account ethnicity either. Who here knows of many Pacific Islanders over 30 that are under their max weight? Who many know of any of them that can’t flip up a VW Bug and throw it across a parking lot?
Is that guy Pyle, in that photograph?
Given the location of the clinic I suspect some 26ers getting scared. An officer gets through battalion command in tact and gets selected for O6 (usually around the 22 year mark) but then fails to get selected for brigade command. In order to retire as an O6 he needs to serve four more years somewhere. The Pentagon is full of these folks from every branch. Every time there is a reduction in force, they go after folks about to retire and try to catch them before they have enough time in grade to retire at current grade.
An O6 over 26 has a base pay of $10,570. However, if his fat ass is booted at 25 years, his base pay for retirement calculations would be $8600.
COB6: TIG for officer retirements at O4 O5 or above is 3 years. That can be waived to 2 yrs if (1) the SECDEF authorizes such a reduction and (2) the concerned Service Secretary approves the waiver. The POTUS must personally waive TIG requirements for officers in the grade of O4 O5 or above who retire with less than 2 yrs TIG to allow them to retire at their current grade. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/1370 What you say above was true for those covered under the older “final pay” retirement system. However, under the current “high-3” system, the effect appears to be much less. Retirement pay under the “high-3” system is based on the highest 36 months base pay during a career. If the guy/gal in question served 1 year as a LTC and 2 years as a COL and then got RIFed or SERBed, they’d indeed retire as a LTC – but their retired pay would be based on the average of 12 months base pay as a LTC and 24 months base pay as a COL. http://www.armyg1.army.mil/rso/docs/pre/CSBREDUXFAQS.doc? The high-3 system applies to anyone entering the military for the first time on/after 8 Sep 1980 who didn’t elect the REDUX option. Thus, anyone being RIFed in the next few years is very likely under the high-3 system. This is one of the few cases I know of where it’s to one’s advantage to be under the newer “high-3” retired pay system. It also raises an interesting question: what happens to an enlisted guy/gal who gets court-martialed late in their career and reduced, but doesn’t get a punitive discharge, then shortly afterwards retires? (I knew a guy who ended up retiring at 22 years as a E3 who’d been an E7 not long before for exactly that reason.) Under the final pay system, his retired pay got absolutely hammered, and common sense says that should be the case. But I’ve never been able to find anywhere that says the same kind of reduction in retired pay happens under “high-3” under similar circumstances. And I learned long ago not to assume common sense applies… Read more »
As a nation we’re quite fat and most of the time the only person to blame is the Big Mac eater him/herself. Medical issues aside, not too many excuses for not taking care of yourself. I can go on about my friend with fake hips who is an animal in the gym, or my own back issues; but that’s all anecdotal. Way too many of us Americans eat garbage and sit on our a$$es.
Hydrostatic testing is more accurate than tape or caliper, but the last time I checked it wasn’t used in services due to worldwide availability. The weight standards aren’t that tough to maintain, I can’t remember anyone booted who was a body builder or power lifter – doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, though.
I remember when they added HT/WT and PT test status to the Army NCOER. I also saw a bunch of people pencil whipped, which is a shame.
I’ll add that it isn’t as simple as calories in/calories out. There is a lot metabolism has to do with it, and weight training and eating more can often lead to healthy weight loss if eating right. I understand dieticians and other experts are available, the best thing for overweight soldiers to do is a lifestyle change. It can be incredibly difficult after years of eating sodium and fat laden fake foods and diet soda (which is worse for diet and metabolism than regular soda).
Liposuction is both stupid and a health risk.
This also looks like something fro the Duffel Blog
I don’t have anything to say here. But I question the photo, if I ever saw something like that in uniform there would be a problem.
BTW. In the Navy if you can’t fit through a 17 inch scuttle, you can’t serve at sea. That is the size of the smallest round horizontal passage.
But what the hell do I know?
21 inches on a submarine, Master Chief, but then you’d have to be shot out a torpedo tube if you wanted to get out.
…also raises an interesting question: what happens to an enlisted guy/gal who gets court-martialed late in their career and reduced, but doesn’t get a punitive discharge, then shortly afterwards retires? (I knew a guy who ended up retiring at 22 years as a E3 who’d been an E7 not long before for exactly that reason.)
I actually saw a couple of courts-martial like that. And the short answer is – yes, the guys got hammered on their retired pay. That’s because the statutes have exceptions in them for people who are reduced by court-martial…see subsection f of 10 U.S.C. 1407 and subsection (i)(2) of 10 U.S.C. 1406.
Alberich: thanks. Common sense told me that had to be the case – but unless it’s codified, common sense often is NOT applied where it should be.
Glad to see whoever drafted the law governing high-3 pay didn’t miss that. It would be patently unjust for someone who got reduced by court-martial but who did not receive a punitive discharge and who then retired immediately to get essentially the same pay as someone who retired at their pre-court-martial grade.
I know of two people who honestly struggle with the tape measurement but are/were in top physical condition. First, my son’s MTL from AF tech school last year was a big guy and just ripped and flunked the waist measurement. He was a great MTL but they kicked him out anyway.
The other is my new son-in-law (wow that sounds weird!). He’s 6’4″ – just huge – and does conditioning twice a day, MMA, running, etc. you name it. He constantly worries about not passing the tape measurement, even though he can run rings around just about anyone. He’s also almost 26 years old, not some scrawny 18-year-old. Oh, and he left for Army basic training yesterday (we couldn’t talk him into Air Force).
In comparison, there’s my eldest son who is 6’3″ and has always been scrawny (I didn’t get that gene!). He doesn’t work out or run in any way, except some heavy lifting at work. He also smokes.
It makes no sense to hold someone who is 6’4″ to a similar waist size as someone who is 5’8″. There has to be a better way of judging fitness and strength.
@25: Hondo, it’s not O-4 and above, it’s above the grade of O-4 or O-5 and above. One can retire at O-4 with 6 months TIG.
JohnC: correct. I read the statute quickly, and misread “above major or lieutenant commander” as “at or above major or lieutenant commander”. My error; it’s fixed above now.
Thanks. Second set of eyes helps to ensure accuracy and is always appreciated.
On the other hand, I have rarely made the weight limit since i came back in in 2003, but I’ve passed the tape test with flying colors every time, and I’m 5’8″ and 180 lbs. I’ve also seem a fair share of lardos that needed to be booted, but the Army didn’t because of personnel shortages, but now, away they go!!
@35… and your PT test scores? I know several (years ago) who had flunked the height-weight but MAXED the PT test. All good to go. Waivers not needed. All retained AND promoted.
The PT test is (was) the killer for the height weight problem soldiers.
Just a question: why do all these entries after #25 have lines through the text? Did someone forget to turn off the line-through format button?
If a tape measure is the basis for determing body fat, instead of being done with valid instruments, then it’s a false reading. Anyone can suck in their middle and fool a tape. I’ve done that when I’m sewing something. When I was younger and much skinnier, I could cave in my abdomen so much that you could count my ribs.
Whoever cooked up this nonsense doesn’t know his butt from a hole in the ground about basic human physiology or have a strong hold on reality. This is totally bogus.
“Don’t call me Norman, call me Chubsy-Ubsy.” One of the great bits with Jackie Cooper–1930.
I’m not seeing that, Ex-PH2. My screen shows 2 items in comment 25 lined through (they should be – I did that when I corrected an error in the original to mark the correction) and the rest of the text after them displaying normally.
Addendum: re-checked and found a stray character, which might have caused an issue in some browsers. Should be fixed now.
Well, when I made my post @37 above, everything above it was lined out, and my post was, also, but now it’s fixed.
I found this article which points out the fallacy behind the so-called ‘tape test’, which seems to be something picked up from the fashion industry. Considering that the boniest bone-thing women, many of whom are skeletally thin, are in the highest demand as runway models, whether or not they have jelly-like thighs and arms, my guess is that someone sees that as the ideal and not the man or woman who is physically fit, passes the calipers and passes the dunk test, both of which are more accurate.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20130812/NEWS/308120017/Tape-test-protest-One-Marine-takes-his-body-fat-fight-top
The part at the end, in which someone objects to the calipers becuase it ‘requires special training’, caught my attention. That is malarkey. What I see here is good people being dumped because they don’t meet an ‘inches to height’ ratio. Maybe those body builders should show up in their competition Speedos when they’re going to be ‘taped’, just to do a little ‘posing’ and let those muscles ripple.
Who comes up with this kind of crap, anyway? Where did this nonsense come from?
@40 damn html commands!!
Screw the tape, calipers all of that sh1t….if you can pass the PT test it should be no harm, no foul, carry on.
If you can’t pass the PT test it’s the potato boy platoon and road guard duty during marches until your fat 4ss can pass the PT test…if after the requisite time in the plumper platoon you still fail, then you should be separated and gone…
That’s kinda how I always saw it, VOV. But the Army doesn’t. They apparently want soldiers who are “pretty”, too.
Of course, that would only really be a good solution if you assume the fitness test in use is a good measurement tool for measuring an individual’s physical readiness for combat. Not so sure that’s the case today, really. But most good options to measure physical readiness for combat probably are too expensive to be considered – either in time or dollars.
Best comment I ever saw or heard on the issue was a letter in Soldiers magazine years ago. The letter writer complained about a photo he’d seen of a rather hefty soldier in the mag. The guy literally had a gut, and it showed.
The photo was of a tanker in the IDF. The cutting comment? Something to the effect of, “Yeah, if the IDF can ever develop an effective weight control program they might one day be pretty good.”
@44 “pretty”? geez…form over substance again…
I understand your point about readiness for combat, but the baseline ability to push, pull and move your own weight is a prerequisite for all of that. If a truck drive can at least run his f4t ass the required distance in the required time everyone knows he’s capable of at least that and can react accordingly…if he is going to blow out his heart climbing back into the cab…we should be weeding him out of the pool…
Not everyone will be fast enough, strong enough, or at the end of the day good enough. Passing the minimum standards is at least an entry point, additional requirements per MOS are also applicable failing those should force a separation or reassignment to an MOS their large buttocks can accommodate…
F$ck that pretty bullsh1t, that’s what that 4sswipe Chandler is doing with the tattoo bullsh1t…guys who were pretty enough when they were needed to take hostile fire are now not pretty enough to shine their brass and mop the barracks…
The dichotomy between function and form has always affected the military too, VOV. The French author Jean Lartéguy probably said it best:
“I’d like to have two armies: one for display with lovely guns, tanks, little soldiers, staffs, distinguished and doddering Generals, and dear little regimental officers who would be deeply concerned over their General’s bowel movements or their Colonel’s piles, an army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country. The other would be the real one, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage uniforms, who would not be put on display, but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That’s the army in which I should like to fight.”
We (and best I can tell, every other nation in the Western world) seem to vacillate between the two when it comes to the military. During wartime, we care primarily about function. During peacetime, focus turns to form.
Unfortunately, we pay in blood for that change in focus every time there’s another war.
@46 Great quote, thanks once again for a history lesson!!
I’m with the frenchie, I like the army in the field with the soldiers in camo….I was a sh1tty garrison soldier it made me crazy, but I loved the field problems…even the freezing cold winter ones at Ft. Drum…
VOV: you’re welcome. It’s one of the best military-related quotes on the subject I’ve ever seen.
Lartéguy himself is a fascinating character and (reportedly) an excellent author. Reading some of his works, particularly The Centurions, is on my “to do” list – assuming I can find English-language translations that aren’t exorbitant.
His background of having fought during World War II as an officer in the Free French 1st Commando Group probably was instrumental in his later writing and work as a war correspondent. He seems to have pretty much worked as a war correspondent in wars worldwide after World War II pretty much nonstop up to and including Vietnam (when he wasn’t writing articles and novels, of course). By the end of Vietnam, he was over 50 – so I guess he decided not to push his rather tattered luck any further.
He died in 2011 – at age 90. (smile)
Im a big guy, 6’1 225 lbs and jacked. I always had to be taped as I was only supposed to be 198 or something like that. I never had a probl3m being taped as I was told I was between 11 and 14 bmi depending on which time I was taped. If you are fit the tape test isnt a problem in my experience.