Consulting the “experts” on women in combat

| June 18, 2013

I had to think a couple of times before I posted this link that James sent us because I didn’t want it to sound like I’m being the big bad infantryman bashing some Air Force chick, but, ya know what, she’s asking for it. She’s Senior Airman Stacy Fogarty and she says she served in Iraq, which is honorable enough, but I’m guessing that as an expert on women in combat, her experience is somewhat lacking. But that’s not what she tells the reporter dude;

“The enemy is not looking at us and say oh, they’re women. Let’s not do what we were going to do. They just see us as Americans and we should see each other as Americans not broken down by male and female,” she said.

“Do you feel that you had combat experiences when you were in the Air Force?” I asked.

“Absolutely. Yeah,” she said. “Civilians are throwing bombs over to the base. So at any time we could be hit. You’re not segregated out there as to who is combat and who is not. The minute you hit the AOR (area of responsibility) that’s a combat.”

Fogarty acknowledged there is a difference between being “in combat” and being in an infantry unit where you have to pull a trigger.

“Do you think you could have been on the front lines pulling a trigger?” I asked.

“I do. In the military you’re trained to do what needs to be done for the greater good,” Fogarty said.

“As soon as I asked that question I thought I’m not sure I’d even ask that question to a man,” I said.

“It’s interesting isn’t it?” she said.

Now, my wife’s friend, a nurse, was killed in Iraq when she was out running around the Green Zone one day when a mortar landed near her, I’m pretty sure that if she had lived through that experience she wouldn’t admit that because she’d been blown up, she’d make a good infantryman. But Fogarty, somehow thinks that because she *could* have been blown up at some point in her tour, that makes her equal to any infantryman. Actually all that makes her is a potential target. I’m sure she did a fine job, whatever that was, because she doesn’t tell us what she did in Iraq, but I think if we knew what her job was, we’d think her bravado would seem even more ridiculous.

While I’m sure her Air Force training was the best they could give her, I’m also sure that none of it had much to do with pulling triggers, not that it’s a bad thing, the Air Force seems more focused on their specialties and less on the ancillary war-fighting stuff, mainly because they have people in the Air Force to protect their technicians from the war-fighting stuff, and they depend on the Army and Marines for extra layers of protection.

I’m also sure that Stacy joined the Air Force so she’d be back from the battle, otherwise, she might have enlisted in the Marines or the Army. but, that’s just speculation because I don’t know what her job was in the Air Force, but she’s not exactly forthcoming on that point.

On edit: MCPO NYC USN (Ret.) dropped a video off in the comments, and it turns out that she worked in a medical supply room, so yeah, she’s a hardened combat vet more than qualified to comment on women in combat.

Category: Military issues

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Former3c0

To be honest I was embarrassed after reading that. I knew people would poke more fun at the AF for this. There are only two firing groups to my knowledge, one for those who have to arm daily/routinely for operations (you can read more in AFI 31-117) and those that don’t. I’m pretty sure her AFSC falls under those that don’t arm everyday/routinely and so I believe she’d only even get to see her M16 once every 2 years outside the AOR (for weapons qual). I’d really have to get a solid definition of what “seeing combat” means- if you’re only taking and not returning, is that really combat?

She seems to have an inflated sense of accomplishment in my opinion. Before you guys go jumping on me though, I haven’t done crap either, but at least I realize it.

Former3c0

One more thing, I didn’t bother reading into her at all or watching her videos so maybe someone who did can answer this for me: did she earn her Combat Action Ribbon? If so, what does the citation say?

Former3c0

oops, it’s a Combat Action Medal in the AF. Guess you can definitely tell who doesn’t have one… this guy.

OldSoldier54

Hmmmmmmmmmmm …

Dear Brooklyn Tool Homie:

Just running a quick systems check here, could you answer this:

1+1=?

Sparks

@82 WTF do you even mean by that comment! You have it ass backwards. You get the credit AFTER you do the work. What a dumbass retard you are. Get a clue about what this blog is for. We are not talking about who can stamp the most forms in five minutes over in supply. We are talking about military combat you dick weed. Remember you give credit WHERE and WHEN credit is due. Which is after real combat.

NHSparky

Okay, you zoomies can correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t E-4 Senior Airman/Sergeant, the difference being that you have to have at least a year as a SrA before you can become a Sgt?

So if that in fact is the case, our little “expert” (And remember what “expert” stands for, kids) was part of the E-4 mafia–but just barely.

Hondo

NHSparky: DoD’s web page showing current enlisted ranks and insignia ( http://www.defense.gov/about/insignias/enlisted.aspx ) says “USAF no have Sergeants any more”.

Supporting that, Wikipedia says that the USAF did away with the dual “Sr Airman/Sergeant” rank at E4 in 1991.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_enlisted_rank_insignia

The latter is Wickipedia, so take that with however many grains of salt you think necessary. (smile)

stacy

no one claimed to be an expert. so negative!

Former3c0

Well NHSparky, they only require 6 months TIG, 3 yeaers TIS (http://usmilitary.about.com/od/afpromotions/l/blafpromfacts.htm)

I sewed on SrA in Dec 2006, and tested that very next spring of 07. So it’s not a very long wait.

Former3c0

oh and SrA is NOT regarded as an NCO rank, it’s just the highest of the airman ranks, then comes the junior enlisted (SSgt – TSgt), and then SNCO ranks (MSgt – CMSgt). Again if you wanna read the little brown book (AF Enlisted Force Structure) check out AFI 36-2618.

Old Trooper

Wow, this thread has brought some heat. We have gone around on this subject for a long time, however, this is the first time that we have had someone so special as the focus of the story. I’m sure there are others out there that think like this gal, but as martinjmpr says in #11; it’s not a matter of squeezing off rounds at bad guys, but rather the day in and day out physical toll it takes on the body and the ability to haul it every day all day. Standards are there for a reason.

Former3c0

dammit, wish there was an edit button. I meant SSgt – TSgt are junior NCOs, not enlisted, though technically they are still junior enlisted under the SNCO category.

Former3c0

True Hondo and thanks for the links, the USAF did away with Buck Sergeants in the 90s. The difference between a Buck Sergeant and a SrA was the star in their stripes. The SrA I believe had only 3 stripes as their rank insignia, whereas the Buck Sergeants had 3 stripes with the star or roundel in the middle as we see the SrA rank of today.

Hondo

Former3co: yep. That was the distinction between the two, insignia-wise, prior to the abolition of the USAF Sergeant/E4 rank in 1991.

USAF trivia question for ya, amigo: how many upward-pointing chevrons did a USAF Master Sergeant have in the 1960s?

Former3c0

Do I get to answer?

Hondo

That’s up to you. (smile)

As a clarification: by “upward pointing”, I mean “point up” – as in an inverted-V.

Former3c0

Okay, now I feel like I’m walking into a trap. Tell me if I’m correct in saying that the MSgt rank used to look like a super TSgt?

Hondo

Correct. That was one of the other 1991 rank insignia changes. Prior to then, the MSgt rank insignia looked like the TSgt insignia with an extra stripe on the bottom. It lost the last bottom stripe and added the upward-pointing chevron above the star.

The SMSgt and CMSgt insigina also each lost a stripe from the bottom and added an extra upward-pointing chevron at the same time.

Dad’s last assignment was as a B-52 crew chief in SAC. He retired as a MSgt in the 1960s.

Former3c0

Well, we’ve gotten side tracked :P. Much respect to your dad Hondo, I LOVE hearing the old-timers talk about their AF back in their time.

If you wanna go over AF trivia/history I’d love to bust out my PDG and post some :D.

ByrdMan

From her description I was involved in some combats myself. So if indirect fire is a combat, is indiscriminate direct fire and RPG’s like Super combat. Then you 03’s and 11’s would be in Mega Combat. And then there would be the uber-crazy Super Mega Combat. The list goes on…

This rest of this comment may be viewed as misogynistic but, it’s a true story, from my time at SOI East, MCT, Golf Comapany, April 2005.

Being a POG among POGs I attended MCT with a cadre of Female Marines. Several of those young ladies were small framed and short in stature.

When we were on our hump from Camp Devil Dog to Camp Geiger some of those small framed Lady Devil Dogs fell out, leaving some of us Male Devil Dogs to carry their gear for a mile or so until it could be put on the truck. No fun for anyone.

The standards are in place to carve our warriors into the finest fighting force on the planet. I have no issue with a capable young lady locating, closing with and destroying the enemy by fire and maneuver and/or repelling enemy assault by fire and close combat. Just don’t lower the standard to do so.

DaveO

#81 Joe Williams,

Fort Sill does Army BCT only. Not Navy. It does AIT for Army and Marine Artillerists (Field & Air Defense). While BCT at Sill is gender-integrated, most of the women go on to non-combat jobs like FA Surveyor and anything Air Defense.

The only Navy at Fort Sill is the meth-heads bathing in the puddles on Gore Avenue after a rare rainstorm.

Brandon Bryant

my real name is brandon bryant regardless of any other people you know named brandon bryant, i am NOT homosexual and i do not care for that lifestyle

Hondo

Brandon Bryant (@121): you might want to use a different screen name when you comment here, then – I’d suggest “Brandon from Brooklyn”, or something similar. An individual named “Brandon Bryant” has been featured here in a couple of articles, and is thus well-known by TAH readers. He’s a former USAF RPA (“drone”) operator who claims he “caught the PTSD” from his work and was “traumatized” by his service. Most here view him as a whiny little shithead.

I certainly wouldn’t want to be confused with that guy. You will be if you continue to use “Brandon Bryant” as your screen name, as that’s the name he uses when he posts here (he has on occasion).

Combat Historian

My views on “progressive social experiments” with the military such as females in combat units and gays in the military is basically unprintable in an open forum, so I will not even try…