Deputy kills Marine
The LA Times reports that an Orange County deputy shot and killed Sgt. Manuel Loggins Jr., when the deputy saw Loggins getting into his SUV with his two daughters
Jim Amormino, a spokesman for the department, said the deputy was fearful that Loggins — who he said appeared to be acting irrationally — was about to drive off with the girls.
“The real threat that was perceived was the safety of the children,” Amormino said.
“The deputy formed an opinion that he had a deep concern for the children, that he would not allow Mr. Loggins to drive away with the kids,” Amormino said.
Nice call, deputy. The Times says that Loggins regularly took his daughters to school early in the morning and walked the school’s track while reading his Bible. That’s pretty irrational.
In another article, the union blames Loggins;
When Loggins abruptly returned to his SUV, he ignored orders not to start the car and instead put it in gear, preparing to drive “and further endanger the children.”
The union said the deputy, positioned by the driver’s window, fatally shot Loggins as he began to pull the vehicle forward.
People who know Loggins doubt the union’s side of the story;
Loggins’ friends and fellow Marines, who said they were baffled by the incident, described him as a deeply devout Christian who had received good-conduct medals for his military service. Aaron Banks, who served with Loggins and saw him as a mentor, said he didn’t believe the union.
I, honestly don’t see a reason to shoot someone dead because they’re driving away from an officer. If it’s true, the Marine wasn’t armed with a weapon and presented no danger to the officer, who probably already had enough information on him to arrest Loggins later.
But then, I wasn’t there and I’ve never been a cop.
Category: Legal
Police Union wasnt a witness so their opinion is shit gossip
There’s also the question of shooting into the vehicle with two children on board; and is there dash-cam video of what happened?
Sounds very much like an execution – are there any criminal issues Loggins was witness to?
@2: If there was dc video, you can bet it’s been erased by now.
Deputy Found Guilty – Used Poor Judgement (future headline)
Deadly force is lawful (gernerally) to protect against serious bodily injurgy and/or death.
In this case we will probably find that, the Marine MAY have needed help for whatever reason, and the Deputy should have helped. Further, the assessment of “fear” and “endangered the children” will not hold up (it is a stretch). Did the Marine move to seriously injure and/or cause the death of the children? If NO – the Deputy and the deaprtment will have to account for their clear lack of good judgement in this case.
The LAPD has apparently provided two different descriptions of the incident. In the one provided above, Sgt. Loggins was “about to drive off” with his daughters. But in this one, Loggins was coming back to his vehicle.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-marine-shot-20120210,0,584000.story
I can understand initial and final reports being different. But both of these public statements were made well after the incident – at least 2 1/2 days after. You think 2 1/2 days would be enough time to get it more or less right.
I’m no cop, and I wasn’t there. But something just doesn’t seem quite kosher here.
Sorry, that should be “Orange County Sheriff’s Office” vice LAPD.
Something really STINKS here. I’m obviously not up on OCSD policy, but firing into a vehicle is generally frowned upon, especially when you don’t know what/who/how many are in the vehicle, and this took place in the parking lot of a high school there.
I really can’t see how driving away justifies deadly force, if in fact that’s the case. Driving away with kids in the car certainly doesn’t, unless he threatened to harm the children, of which there’s no indication here.
Yeah, I don’t see how the shooting goes from being outside the SUV to inside the SUV;
Loggins emerged from the SUV and headed toward the athletic field, apparently ignoring the deputy’s orders to stop, Amormino said.
When Loggins turned and headed back to the Yukon, the deputy suddenly felt threatened and opened fire, Amormino said.
Amormino said he did not know why the deputy felt threatened, or how many shots were fired, or whether Loggins was armed. Marine sources said Loggins was not in possession of a weapon.
An idle question: Was there any marking on the Marine’s car that identified him as a Marine? The police pay close attention to military/NRA/weapons stickers on vehicles.
Even though I love those stickers, and have a pile of them, I would NEVER put one on my car, for fear of causing a cop to “red-line” before he even got to my window.
That was my first thought too, PN #10, but I didn’t see any in the videos of the SUV.
No weapon in hand–check.
Never cleared vehicle–check.
Not coming towards the deputy or otherwise causing deputy to fear for his life–check.
This deputy is screwed. OCSD has taken a big hit since Carona got nailed for corruption, most of it richly deserved.
I’m hearing six different stories. Which one was true?
1&2) Was he being chased by police and refused to pull over or was the officer nearby and saw him “acting eratically?
3&4) Did he crash through a gate or did he drive through an opening to the street that was gateless?
5&6) Did he flee from the officer then turn and confront the officer in a menacing way or was the officer standing beside the driver door when Loggins began driving?
What crime did Loggins commit? There is no mention of the crime from any of the sources which is highly unusual for such a case.
He was unarmed, why was he not pepper sprayed or tazed first? Orange County Sheriff Department include tazers as standard equipment now and have included pepper spray for I don’t know how long.
I will not make any assumptions until more information comes out, but it seems that the officer’s/union’s story is bullshit.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=San+Clemente+High+School,+Avenida+Pico,+San+Clemente,+CA&hl=en&ll=33.439677,-117.617598&spn=0.000423,0.000431&sll=45.30466,-122.962019&sspn=0.008074,0.013797&oq=San+Clemente+High+School,+CA&hq=San+Clemente+High+School,+Avenida+Pico,+San+Clemente,+CA&t=k&z=21
This is where the SUV is pictures as having come to a stop. You can see the black door on the building in the picture in the story linked below.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-marine-shot-20120210,0,584000.story
There are no gates that he could have crashed through to end up in that position. The path leading to the track does not have a gate. The only gate visible is in the news video linked in the third story, and it is shut. The parking lot of the high school, which the police spokesman said Loggins crashed into the gate to enter, does not have a gate, either.
Something smells here and I cannot wait until the local NCIS bureau is able to begin their investigation, if they haven’t already.
“Loggins, who was based at Camp Pendleton, was driving “at a high rate of speed” when he crashed his Yukon SUV through a gate at the parking lot about 4:30 a.m. Tuesday, said sheriff’s spokesman Jim Amormino”. I don’t see any damage from the “high rate of speed” impact with the gate, and there is no gate on any of the entrances to the parking lot, unless they were added after GoogleEarth took the pics.
Next, if his daughters were in danger, where is anything on what statements they may have made to an investigator? And, like Flagwaver said, what “crime” was involved? It’s not a crime to take your daughters for a walk at 0430, 0530 or 1730. I find the absence of anything from the two witnesses(the daughters) to be highly suspect, much like the story of the high speed impact, and the deputy’s “feeling” that the girls were in danger. Did they communicate that to the deputy? Did they communicate anything to the deputy before the shooting?
Too many different stories, not enough evidence, definitely not a situation in which a gun should have been used. Aren’t tasers issued nationwide now? Isn’t this the exact sort of scenario they’re designed around?
My curiosity isn’t just on the officer at this point, but on the department as a whole. Like it was said above, something stinks and unfortunately I don’t think we’re going to find out all the sources of this obfuscation.
Fry Deputy Dicksuck! That cowardly sonofabitch needs to lose his badge, pension, freedom, and pretty much everything decent in his life!
Deputy Dicksuck most assuredly violated policy by shooting first. Whoever the Fucktard LEO is, went straight for the top of the escalation of force ladder, instead of going to OC or Taser first, then open palm hands on technique, then weapon. If the SGT was such a threat, where the fuck was Deputy Dicksuck’s backup? Policy in most jurisdictions dictates to not approach unless backup is close if threatened. This is another example of LE trying to be too much like the Military.
There isn’t enough damage visible on the vehicle to support a claim that it crashed through a gate at high speed.
It comes down to “he said”, “she said”. And unfortunately Sgt Loggins isn’t around to tell his side. If there’s any justice (increasingly rare, especially in Big City Kalifornication), Mrs Loggins will take the OCPD to the cleaners.
@12, Sparky…you only hope that the cop will be found guilty. Unfortunately in these days, more than likely he’ll be put on paid leave while an “investigation” takes place to soothe the sheeple public and then it will be quietly swept under the rug with him returning to duty and possibly some “rehab” training to brush up on his trigger happy skills.
I feel for those kids. Typical of the Assn. of Orange County Deputy Sheriffs to claim that it was their own father putting them in danger, but oh no, shooting their father dead in front of them isn’t in the least bit dangerous at all…physcially or emotionally.
The continued desensitization of the public to the killing of it’s own citizens without a by-your-leave.
It’s ironic that if SGT Loggins had killed a Taliban using similar ROE, he would have been court-martialed for murder.
@21, NothingSpecial…you hit the nail on the head! I was thinking as I was reading all these articles the same thing. Of all the mind screwing we had with ROE over there and the whole “win hearts and minds” BS, it amazes me that we couldn’t pull the trigger on known enemies but our civilian cops can do so on us whenever the hell they feel like it with no penalty. I can’t even pull the trigger on an intruder in my own home unless I can prove after the fact that I tried the retreat method first!
gi_janearng, you’re living in the wrong state. In Texas, at least, I do not believe you have a duty to retreat when in your own home…
gi_janearng: God forbit it comes to that – but if it does, if necessary pull the trigger anyway. Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.
Retreat just far enough to get the shotgun.
I posted this in the wrong thread, but…There looks like a “blue on blue” element here. The report I read said the deputy had been with the department for 15 years after serving 4 in the USMC.
Regardless, this is tragic and inexcusable.
“Other sheriff’s personnel arrived and comforted the children, who said their father “had been acting oddly,” the statement said. When Loggins abruptly returned to his SUV, he ignored orders not to start the car and instead put it in gear, preparing to drive “and further endanger the children.”
Speaking from the POV of a retired police officer/supervisor here:
So, which is it? Did he try to drive away with the girls or were the girls being comforted by ‘other sheriff’s personnel’?
If other deputies were present, how did the victim get back into his vehicle? If one of my officers allowed someone they thought was dangerous to get back into a vehicle, serious discipline would have followed. Did he fight his way to the vehicle?
If it interesting, and utterly ridiculous for the to point out the officer involved is also a former Marine. The service of either of the individuals is inconsequential.
Something is definitely wrong with story. Attorneys for the family should subpoena copies of the reporting system logs, log-ins and backups since the time of the incident. It sounds to me like some reports have been “amended” regarding this situation. The time stamps on those files can prove that. Most incident report software keeps an audit trail, logging who pulled up the report and when, who printed the report, and who made any changes and when those changes were made.
I have stepped away from blogging for the most part since doing my analysis of the Guerena debacle, but might have to find time to concentrate on this incident.
@#10: Most cops are pro-gun and know that those folks with NRA stickers normally aren’t a threat. We do, however, have our share of mommy-coddled dipshits who have no military or life experience prior to putting on the badge. I can understand the reasons behind your caution.
My point was simply that I didn’t think it was a case of shoot him because he is a crazy Marine thing if the shooter was also a Marine. Regardless, this looks like an excessive use of force situation and nothing in the reporting seems to make clear any of the following:
1. What did he do to draw the attention of the officer;
2. What exactly made the officer fear for himself or the children;
3. Where exactly was the Sgt. when he was told to stop;
4. Where was the officer vis a vis the Sgt. when he told him to stop;
5. Was the officer in uniform;
6. Was there any indication that the Sgt. actually heard the officer;
7. When, exactly, did any officer communicate with the children;
8. How many officers were present when the incident occurred…
I could go on but you get the point.
I went ahead and drafted up a short post pointing out the conflicts and the f’ed up police procedure based on the various news and official reports out there.
http://beatandrelease.blogspot.com/2012/02/sgt-manuel-loggins.html
Any lawman
Any where
Who is him or herself armed
And is afraid of an unarmed man
Will Commit Murder
Willing to bet the murdered man’s ipod earphones are missing from his ears. And he was recently diagnosed with PTSD/societal reintegration issues.
@#30. Nicely done, B&R. It addresses the same things that troubled me. If he was a “danger”, why was he allowed to get back in the vehicle, if that’s where he was shot? If he was a danger, why weren’t the two girls removed from the vehicle while he was absent? And, as others have posted, why wasn’t a taser or pepper spray used. And, where are the girls? Why haven’t any of their statements surfaced? And, I’d also like to hear the audio between the officer and his dispatcher.
I know each situation is different, but my sister has been w/PD for 15 yrs and has yet to unholster her weapon. A high school buddy just retired after 30 yrs and pulled his once, on a Pit Bull. Something just doesn’t feel right about this.
First thing after reading BnR’s estimation is to FIOA this asshats 214…
This stinks even worse than what those Pima County bozos did to Jose Guereña.
Thanks for the writeup B&R. I am a former LEO myself, though only for a short while. I enjoyed your musings on the Guerena incident and found myself in total agreement with everything you posted. I referred a number of my friends who I had served with to your blog regarding it. I’m hoping you’ll stay on top of this incident too. It’s going to be interesting to see what happens as the picture of what exactly happened becomes clearer.
B&R, thanks for the great synopsis! I’m not the most computer savvy Joe around so trying to collate everything was giving me a headache! As my compadre Ricky Ricardo would say “Lucy, you got some ‘splaining to do”! My sister and her squad, my nephew-in-law and his squad and a couple life long friend’s (LEOs) are all monitoring this and they don’t like it.
If you go to this link for ABC7 it appears that the SUV had a broken driver’s side headlight and a large scuff mark on the driver’s side of the front bumper as well as a shot driver’s door window. The gate that was crashed appears to be the common small metal gates used to close off vehicle traffic to a road.
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/orange_county&id=8539913
If this school is like those where I live and work, it is a violation to be on them without permission and you can be detained and cited. In fact alot of schools in SoCal get burglarized for the computers/electronics or just tagged/vandalized.
Also the sergeant appeared to be at his service limitations and preparing to get out of the Corps. Sergeants have 13 years to make staff sergeant or they’re out. It’s possible he could not make staff sergeant because of his MOS, but would believe there was probably another cause. That is alot of stress for anyone let alone with 3 kids and a 4th on the was.
The deputies did not know he was unarmed probably till after he was shot and was then searched. Many officers have been shot by unarmed assailants that were able to take the officer’s weapon away during a struggle.
It would be nice to let the investigation be conducted before saying this was a murder and an attempted cover-up. I do share a concern in how did the sergeant get back in the vehicle since if he was acting irrationally it becomes a danger to the kids. But once he was back in letting him leave with the children is not an option. Too many parents kill their kids these days and unfortunately where I work this has occured twice in the last 8 years.
“Jim Amormino, a spokesman for the department, said the deputy was fearful that Loggins — who he said appeared to be acting irrationally — was about to drive off with the girls.” I saw this and the first question I asked myself was what exactly was he doing that was irrational? What was he doing that constituted the need for lethal force? As you pointed out, even if said officer didn’t know this was routine for him, he was obviously unarmed. So again what was the threat?
#6 Okay, thanks for link to article. It concedes that it doesn’t know why the officer felt threatened either. I’m with you, things aren’t adding up.
YatYas, I see what you are saying, but it just does not seem to completely add up. There are too many stories and too many coincidences… and I don’t believe in coincidences. I want to see the dash can footage, hear the radio recordings, and read the reports.
Ok, I’m not trying to start a fight, my experience is as a firefighter until that roof fell on my head. BUT my sister, nephew-in-law, friends, etc have said more than once you don’t shoot through glass, especially car glass because of the possibility of a ricochet. So was Sgt Loggins such a threat the deputy was willing to injure one on the children in the back seat? If Sgt Loggins was such a threat, why was he allowed to reenter his vehicle? If the deputy was so concerned that the Sergeant would leave and possibly harm his daughters, why didn’t the deputy disable the vehicle! Shoot out a tire, hell, shoot the motor, etc? I don’t know, I was a “boy in blue” who ‘fought fires and saved lives’. I’m just going by what my LEO peeps are saying/asking.
How about TRIGGER HAPPY ? I want a BADASS REP !
The video lends credence to the fence destruction. Point to OCSD. Unfortunately, it still does not justify pulling, pointing and using your firearm on an unarmed man. The fact that Loggins was allowed to re-enter the vehicle without any LEO going hands on to stop him is still a major sticking point in this incident.
“They didn’t know he was unarmed until after they searched him..”
That’s the way it usually works. So, why don’t we just assume everyone is armed, just to be safe, and point our firearms at everyone we deal with on the street? The use of force matrix does not advocate jumping straight to deployment of a firearm on an uncooperative suspect when he hasn’t displayed or threatened the use of a weapon. If the deputies were concerned about his behavior and the safety of his children they should have gone hands on when failed to obey verbal commands. Next step would be OC or Taser. Those levels appear to have been skipped.
Amarmino’s comment in the video is curious – “I’m here to explain and not to defend…” Really? Is this a tacit admission that the deputy failed to follow training and procedure?
Even after watching the video, there are too many questions.
What happened to the high speed chase that the Sheriff’s Spokesperson (or was it the union spokesperson) originally reported after the incident?
The deputy feared for the safety of the children, but left them in the vehicle for five plus minutes?
Rather than block the door, the deputy allowed Loggins free entrance to the vehicle even though he was fearful for the safety of the children?
Even if Loggins was getting out of the Corps, he was enrolled in a Vocation program (probably paid for by the Corps), thus the assertion that he was despondent over his future is no longer valid.
There was dash-cam video taken into evidence, but no spokesperson has made mention of it on the air. It has the power to completely clear the deputy, but it is not even brought up. Oh, and OCSD use the pen-microphone system, so it is both audio and video evidence.
Updated analysis based on new information.
http://beatandrelease.blogspot.com/2012/02/sgt-manuel-loggins-new-info.html
There will be no justice for the Marine,and that cop is nothing but a murderer. Take up a collection, get a hit, and waste that motherfucker.
@USMC Steve … now WE all know your NOT serious. But other knuckleheads out there might think that you are.
Cop kills (insert murdered person), blames (insert murdered person) for it. Big surprise.
You’re better off fending for yourself vs. criminals. At least they can’t just execute you legally.
The Marines have jumped into it:
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2012/02/ap-military-police-square-off-over-marines-death-021912/
[…] the story about Orange County Deputy Sheriff Department shooting of Marine Sgt. Manuel Loggins Jr, which we first discussed last week, members of Loggins’ unit are speaking up to dispute essential elements of the deputies in a […]