Children and Competition

| December 28, 2010

Cross posted from the Burn Pit.
Exit question: Which of these dorks is a 18 year old TSO?

wrestling

No More Thrill of Victory or Agony of Defeat?

A buddy of mine who likes to get me fired up sent me an email this weekend that seemed clearly intent on doing just that. He is the father of two young boys, both under 7, and one of the “games” they got for Christmas was something called “Snail’s Pace Race”, which according to the Company that makes the game (Ravensburger) is enjoyed thusly:

Let’s Play! Place the colored wooden snails on their matching starting arrow. At the beginning of the game, each player chooses the color snail that they think will come in first and the one that they think will come in last. The youngest player starts by rolling the two wooden die. They then advance the snails that match the colors rolled. If they roll two of the same color, they would then move that color snail two spaces. Play continues until all of the snails have reached their color circle at the other end of the game board. Just remember to keep track of which snails were first and last. The players who chose the right snails all win! What Do You Learn? Color recognition & task completion

Now, according to the one line in there, “[t]he players who chose the right snails all win!” one would assume that there are indeed winners and losers to the game. But my friend pointed out some of the comments to the game on Amazon.

Jack from Baltimore endorses it:

Our 5-year old loves this game and even plays it by himself and gives us blow by blow action if I’m making supper and can’t play. Our 11 yr-old likes it as well. Probably because losers are winners and the kids love to see how different the races turns out each time. The bizarre thing is the game is a lot like betting on the races without the exchange of money… so that aspect of it might not sit well with some. We, however, love to cheer on the colorful snails!

Kathleen from Tallahassee:

We bought this game for our son when he was barely 3 years old. He is now almost 6 and still loves it. The game is simple enough for him to play with his friends without adult help, since everything is based on colors and no reading is required. The beauty of this game, though, is that children can have fun without competing against each other. Since all children move all of the snails, it is the snails who race and who win or lose. Since no child loses, there are no hurt feelings.

One lass using the nom de guerre “Amazon Queen” stated her love of the game, although she misspelled “loser”:

The magic in the game is that the SNAILS are the winners so that no child is a winner or looser….PERFECT for the competitive types… no tears…. just fun betting on which colored snail will WIN!!! One of the VERY best games for little ones…VERY BEST!

Anyway, my friend snarkily commented:

In summary, goodbye Snails and best of luck not winning your way out of the recycling bin.

I’m pretty sure he’ll be sitting down to another rousing edition of “which colored snail can make it to the end first” at some point today, so no need to fear for the multi-colored wooden Gastropoda, but his underlying point was that things like this lead to the “wussification” of kids.

What do you think?

I found a video by some guy proclaiming himself the “Parent Professor” who provides some good context, and discusses at what age it is appropriate to start competition in earnest.

I’m not even sure that in a game (like Snails) that is entirely driven by random events, that competition can be so detrimental. The law of averages would dictate that if your two children play an infinite number of times, the chances of them each winning half the games is fairly high. It’s not like one kid can get too upset that he rolled bad dice that he might forever despair of his inability to help his inanimate piece of wood get home the fastest and thus quit the genre entirely. Or is it?

OK, so if we assume that the game’s design is proper, and that at lower ages focusing on winning and losing is not important, at what age should we shift? Consider this AP Article from 2003:

As the final buzzer sounds in the Northview Elementary gymnasium, parents burst into applause and 20 children in red and blue T-shirts line up to shake hands.

Their cheeks are flushed, their hair damp with sweat, and most of them are grinning. But the scoreboard is blank.

“It doesn’t bother me,” says 9-year-old Chelsy Stout. “I just have fun playing.”

In the Harrison County Parks and Recreation basketball league, standings for the under-13 teams are maintained only in the mind. Scores are kept by just a few parents, surreptitiously, on tiny notepads.

Like at least 2,300 communities nationwide, this north-central West Virginia county is taking a different approach to youth sports, toning down the competition to stress sportsmanship and equal playing time for every child, regardless of talent.

You know what makes it really easy to not be a sore sport? Never losing. I’m not entirely sure I get the concept of teaching sportsmanship by not keeping score, and I really don’t get the equal playing time idea. Bill Belichick isn’t going to put me in at right guard against Miami this week for the simple reason that I would suck. It doesn’t really destroy my self worth as much as you might think.

I grew up in a small town in Massachusetts, and my Dad was the Athletic Director and a gym coach. He wanted me to play basketball, as he had at the University of Maine. It became apparent quite quickly that basketball really wasn’t my thing. In fact, I was so bad that a kid beat me up on the bus one time coming back from a game and told me to “stop sucking.” That was in the 7th grade. So, I quit, and joined the wrestling team. I mean, it’s bad enough when you stink at a sport, but it’s even worse when you are so bad that your own teammates want to beat you up. And if I could find the dude that beat me up I would shake his hand for it.

In my school you could wrestle varsity in the 7th grade if you were good enough. It was simple mathematics, I had 63 kids in my class, only 31 males, and a wrestling team needs kids. So, in true egalitarian manner, if you won in your wrestle off at your weight class, you started. And for the first three years, I rarely if ever stepped out on the mat. But, I got better every time David Lupiani beat me senseless during practice. And by my Sophomore year, I was much better.

One of my buddies on the team didn’t have so much luck. I don’t know his exact record, but John Blanchard had to have been like 1-54 from Freshman through Junior years. He just was bad. He was in a weight class with no one else though, so he walked out, took his beating, and sat back down. Then his senior year he turned into a beast. I could say I don’t know how it happened, but I do know: he was tired of losing, and spent every waking moment working his butt off to get better. And get better he did, winning the Western Mass Wrestling Tournament his senior year. I’ve never seen a man more dedicated to his sport, or someone who derived more pleasure from winning. He didn’t spend 5 years getting thumped to just quit, he kept coming back. He was the epitome of perserverance, and it paid off.

I ended up good enough that I could wrestle in college. Technically, I was just good enough to allow everyone in the Southern Conference an easy win when they drew me in the tournament. My college career consisted of not eating much, and struggling in vain to not end up with my scapula in contact with the mat for 3 seconds. I didn’t do well at it. But the things I learned from wrestling would be all the same traits that would serve me well in 12 years of life in the Infantry.

So, what say you. Is this trend away from winners and losers a good thing? Or are we setting up children for failure when we don’t challenge them to achieve success?

(For those who care, I am the ridiculous stick-figure with the glasses in the picture above. This was when I placed third in the 1988 Massachusetts Division II wrestling championships. Curse you Chuck Hassenfuss of Dedham!)

Category: Politics

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Just A Grunt

I dabbled in wrestling in HS during my junior year. How I got there is a long story and for another time. To the point of this post however about competition I firmly believe it is healthy and desired. I learned more about winning by losing. Losing sucks. I hated it. Nothing motivated me more to succeed then failing.

The real issue is how you handle failure. You can whine and feel sorry for yourself or you can pick yourself up and try again. One segment of our Special Forces community has as it’s slogan “The biggest failure it the failure to try”.

I don’t know where my competitive nature came from, I just knew that it didn’t matter whether it was checkers or sports I wanted to win. It has served me well in life. While I have failed sometimes I never quit. My child seems to have picked that trait up also, although thankfully not with quite the fierceness that I could exhibit. She has stuck it out through some tough times. I do know that nobody should be able to exert more pressure on you to succeed then yourself. If you do not have that fire or passion please move to the side of the road and don’t impede traffic.

For some reason those in academia can not grasp the idea that in the real world there are winners and losers. Some folks become professional losers always sponging off of the sympathy of others. I don’t think they would really want a world where heads of corporations or even there favorite teams were staffed with folks who were just in it for the exercise and not interested in succeeding.

This also is another chance for me to flog one of my favorite books from my youth written by Green Bay Packers offensive lineman Forest Gregg titled “Instant Replay”. I recommend it for all kids, more for boys though.

BTW my wrasslin career lasted just the one year and then I went back to my real love soccer. Like I said long story.

Rob D

“For some reason those in academia can not grasp the idea that in the real world there are winners and losers. Some folks become professional losers always sponging off of the sympathy of others. I don’t think they would really want a world where heads of corporations or even there favorite teams were staffed with folks who were just in it for the exercise and not interested in succeeding.”

This is because they are accademics, they have never had to compete with others for that one promotion, they have never had to step up performance so that they will not be downsized. They have no idea how ruthless the real world is. It seems obsured to them that people would actualy have to compete for acheivement and advancement.

Old Trooper

Those mis-guided sports associations that won’t allow score to be kept in the game, because the kids are all winners, so no score needs to be kept, blah, blah, blah. You can bet bank that those kids are keeping score, even if the moron adults aren’t.

Jacobite

Perseverance is the one trait above all others that we seem to be losing in this country, and that’s not good. Our whole world seems to be boiling down to 15 second sound bytes, and instantaneous fulfillment.

That said, I doubt the bleeding hearts will ever be able to ‘hug’ the competitiveness out of our species, and by the time our children hit middle school, natural selection takes over whether the more mushy among us like it or not.

The snail game appears harmless enough to me, for the age group it primarily targets, and human nature will make it a competitive game at some point in a child’s development whether a parent likes it or not. The only way to stop that would be for the parent to interfere, and that’s the parents fault, not the game’s.

Personally I think it would be fun to find a way to introduce betting into the game, my irreverent 14 year old son would agree, lol.

Jacobite

Damned straight!! lmao!

Michael in MI

I wouldn’t worry too much about stupid games like this. Last I checked, every single video game most kids play today is structured for winning and losing. Every high school and college sport is still about winning and losing. And beyond that, the competition is there to be the best so one can get drafted into the professional sport and make lots of money and be famous. But this is the mindset of liberals. Instead of dealing with the realities of life and teaching children that they will experience ups and downs in life and will experience wins and losses in life and teaching them to stay humble in victory and to learn from defeat, they try to deny reality. They’re like the idiots in the movie Serenity who try to use a drug to take away aggression in people. They thought that it would make everyone peaceful and bring peace to humanity. Instead, it took away aggression so much that people stopped doing anything at all. Stopped being active, stopped going to work, stopped eating and eventually stopped breathing. A similar effect happens with this “no losers/competition” stuff. You take away the natural instinct to compete and you end up with generations of people who are failures. They won’t compete for grades, so they won’t work to actually learn in order to achieve those grades, so they won’t have good grades to get into college, so they won’t go to college, but they’ll have problems getting even average jobs, because they never bothered to learn anything, since they had no desire to compete for grades to achieve good grades. So we end up with a bunch of dumb, lazy, unmotivated people who feel entitled to “win”, since they’ve been taught their entire young lives that they don’t need to actually achieve to win, they just need to participate. The real issue is how you handle failure. You can whine and feel sorry for yourself or you can pick yourself up and try again. ========== This is another VERY important life lesson. The best part of participating in competition as… Read more »

Michael in MI

Another great one I’ve always liked:

Don’t Quit!

When things go wrong, as they sometimes will,
When the road you’re trudging seems all uphill,
When the funds are low, and the debts are high,
And you want to smile, but you have to sigh,
When care is pressing you down a bit,
Rest if you must, but don’t you quit.

Life is queer with its twists and turns,
As every one of us sometimes learns,
And many a failure turns about,
when he might have won had he stuck it out;
Don’t give up though the pace seems slow,
You may succeed with another blow.

Success is failure turned inside out,
The silver tint of the clouds of doubt,
And you never can tell how close you are,
It may be near when it seems so far;
So stick to the fight when you’re hardest hit,
It’s when things seem worst, that
You Must Not Quit.

– C. W. Longenecker

ROS

My 15- and 13-year-old would not do well with the snails as the snails are not designed to fly with assistance. Just saying.

BooRadley

well, with kids under 4, I don’t think I’d be playing a game with them where one wins, anyway…it just hasn’t been the case in my house– aside from racing, I guess. (I have ten kids, but only 7 were here since birth, hence my frame of reference)
They created their own games, and in nearly all of them there was a winner. They tended to be gracious to the younger kids, if for no other reason than to keep having someone to play with…I’ve found the younger kids tend to be more competitive, maybe out of necessity.
With the game in question, there’s still a winner– the one who guessed correctly… and we do play some made up guessing games.
As they age, I encourage competition between similarly aged kids….and then there’re video games, RISK– which my 7 year old is a jauggernaut at–, Civilization, chess, and such. With chess, the older kids (16, 17, 18) don’t LET the 7 yo win, they help him, show him moves…but they don’t play worse to let him win… and I like it that way.
short story long– if you teach your kids kindness and compassion the desire to win will not cause them to be mean or anything like that– supervise a little and if one is always getting his ass kicked change up the situation to fix it– but across the board elimination of competition is STUPID.

Anonymous

Hey, hey, left/liberals… there’re no winners ’cause they’re all losers!

Claymore

You can bet bank that those kids are keeping score, even if the moron adults aren’t.
You can bet bank that those kids are keeping score, even if the moron adults aren’t.
You can bet bank that those kids are keeping score, even if the moron adults aren’t.
You can bet bank that those kids are keeping score, even if the moron adults aren’t.

As a parent who coached baseball for 4 years starting when my son was 6 years old, I can 100% validate this.

BooRadley

no lie– while reading this my son and neice kept getting their butts kicked at Mario– and my neice says “we can beat this if we just believe in ourselves” and my 7 yo says “WE CAN BEAT THIS IF WE JUST GET BETTER!!!”

Old Trooper

Competitiveness is part of our make up as humans. We are born with it and every child out there is competitive, no matter how much the limp-wristed liberals want it not to be that way. Competition made this country the greatest on earth. Why people, including our current President (he bows and apologizes to every tin-pot dictator and islamo-fascist on the planet, yet smuggly tells republicans “I won”), want to work to take the competitive spirit away from us is beyond me. Maybe the next time one of these simpletons is in line for that promotion, the boss could say “well, I haven’t been keeping score and you’re all so darn good, so you all get promoted”; which in real terms means no one gets promoted.

baldon73

The “Parent Professor” musta’ been the last guy picked for the girl’s team. The whole thing about competition and winning and losing is to strive to improve,get better and win. Now,it’s scoreless- “Fun to Fun” and everyone gets a trophy and Pizza after the game. “You’re so special for participating.” What utter BULLSHIT. Not everyone can make the team,and to play and win you have to meet certain standards standards and follow certain rules and customs. If you are determined to play,you will do what you have to to meet those standards.
I think this has been what the hell has been going wrong here for the last few years. In order to make everyone feel all friggin’ warm and fuzzy we have been lowering the standards and letting everyone play, whether it be on the soccer field or the Military.

arby

The “Snails” game has nothing on “Candyland” when it comes to pre-determined outcomes. Once the deck for Candyland is shuffled, the winner has been determined. Only in the rare cases when you run out of cards (someone gets stuck in the molasses pit…) is the outcome of the game truly random. But, that rarely happens.

Oh, and if you want a game of Candyland to go faster, get the “Dora” version. It’s deck has so many more “double color” cards than the normal version.