Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell ends
So everyone is emailing us to let us know that Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell will end this week since the Senate voted to repeal the policy. The Stars & Stripes sent us this;
In a stunning turnaround, the Senate voted 65-31 Saturday to repeal the “don’t ask, don’t tell” law as soon as the White House and the Pentagon certify a plan to minimize any disruption to the armed services that may result from the abolition of the controversial law.
Too late, it’s already an unnecessary disruption – anything that has taken this long to resolve which has nothing to do with our national security is a disruption. The President emailed us this;
Jonn —
Moments ago, the Senate voted to end “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.”
When that bill reaches my desk, I will sign it, and this discriminatory law will be repealed.
Gay and lesbian service members — brave Americans who enable our freedoms — will no longer have to hide who they are.
The fight for civil rights, a struggle that continues, will no longer include this one.
This victory belongs to you. Without your commitment, the promise I made as a candidate would have remained just that.
Instead, you helped prove again that no one should underestimate this movement. Every phone call to a senator on the fence, every letter to the editor in a local paper, and every message in a congressional inbox makes it clear to those who would stand in the way of justice: We will not quit.
If only the President was this committed to fighting the war in Afghanistan to a successful conclusion. The only real upside to this whole discussion is that now dicksmith’s material has been cut to about a quarter. What will they have to talk about at VetVoice now?
Can we talk about something else now? Something important? Something like killing large numbers of our enemies who won’t tolerate gays either?
Category: Barack Obama/Joe Biden, Military issues
Dutch, thank you for your service, sounds like you had a full and distinguished career, but no thank you for the wild generalizations and lack of confidence you are putting out there concerning our service men and women. My own experience both in war and in peace has been considerably different than yours, and the only reason I can think of for that may be because we expected better behavior from our people and we got it.
To top it off, it is exactly men such as yourself that are needed to help guide the younger generation as the military starts to change, instead it sounds as if you are willing to capitulate and give up the farm to exactly that which you spent volumes railing against. What does that say about you? Leaving the service when it might need you the most? I’d expect more from someone with the years of service and experience you claim. If you care that much for your people you’d hang in there and be there for them rather than retreating with a whimper.
@Rob
Touché, but there is also a ‘me’ in meat, as in dead meat, something one becomes if they think they can fight a war all by themselves without the support network that keeps them alive.
Jonn:
“The ‘young troopers’ who pull triggers do give a shit.”
No. They don’t.
When the perimeter collapses, don’t worry, I won’t come crying to you for protection. You’ll be on the wrong side of the barricades anyway.
“You’ll be on the wrong side of the barricades anyway.”
You betcha.
jfx–and what makes you so fucking sure?
When the perimeter collapses, don’t worry, I won’t come crying to you for protection. You’ll be on the wrong side of the barricades anyway.
You realize that when the barricades come down, those people you welcome with open arms will be sawing your head off first, right?
Well, I’m not as old as some would think, although I do feel that way, once in a while. Although, when I go to the VA, I’m in the middle of age groups. What is timeless is good military order and discipline. It doesn’t change and shouldn’t. What hasn’t been answered by the “gloaters” is what is actually gained in enhancement to the military or its mission by repealing DADT? What improvement is being made to make our military a more effective fighting force by foisting a social experiment upon the vast majority of the military in order to appease a very, very small minority of personnel and their civilian enablers, who would never join the military anyway?
The leadership provided by that 27 year Veteran is more of a loss than someone that can’t follow orders and is more interested in their sexual preference than they are about doing their job. That may be the type of military you want, but that doesn’t mean it’s an effective military when you turn it into a running social experiment. Maybe you can push for unionization next? Or personalized uniforms (that would mean, of course, that they fail to become uniforms)? Shit, let’s let them have their own grooming standards, cuz when I was in, I really wanted to be able to grow my hair a little longer and maybe have a soulpatch and goatee.
Be careful what you wish for, because you might just get it; good, bad, or otherwise.
The leadership provided by that 27 year Veteran is more of a loss than someone that can’t follow orders and is more interested in their sexual preference than they are about doing their job.
==========
This is one of the most enraging parts of all this. The military leadership has explicitly stated that it considers the Dan Choi’s of the military to be good soldiers that the military wants and that anyone who has a problem with the Dan Choi’s of the world are not good soldiers and should leave for the “betterment of their troops” and so the military can “move forward”.
When Jacobite asks Dutch why he chooses to leave, instead of stay in and help the younger generation, my response is ‘why bother?’ Dutch and those like him were explicitly told by the military leadership that their kind are no longer welcome in the military. So even if he wanted to stay in and try to make a difference, he has been told that the way he wants the military is not the way the military leadership or the civilian ‘leadership’ wants the military to be. So Dutch and others like him would no power to do anything.
To Joe, wherever he may be: I’m sorry for ever calling you the world’s biggest douche. You’re actually the second biggest.
dutch508,
Thank you very, very much for your long service, and also for your heartfelt description of how you see the issue. I hope you will reconsider your resignation, if the repeal of DADT is the main reason behind it. As one contributor put it, guys like you are crucial, esp. in times of transition. I also hope that by the time summer rolls around, maybe you’ll have had time to reconsider, or maybe you’ll find the changes less onerous than you originally thought.
Oh, Hey ROS,
You think I’d keep visiting this site if I took things personally?
Jacobite: What does that say about you? Leaving the service when it might need you the most? I’d expect more from someone with the years of service and experience you claim. If you care that much for your people you’d hang in there and be there for them rather than retreating with a whimper.
When your senior Commander tells you to suck it up or get out; that’s a hint that your leadership doesn’t have your back (of course, he could have said that to the gay crowd, instead, but chose to tell that to the vast majority of troops that aren’t gay). Dutch laid out the reasons why he’s retiring and it’s not with a wimper. It’s hard to fight when the person behind you doesn’t have your back and instead is lining you up to get stabbed in the back. No one needs that.
It is about crazy here and over at Blackfive it seems that all civility and other decorum have been thrown out the window on this issue. Not sure if the trolls are attacking or if this issue is just that heated, either way it kinda sucks.
I can say that I am an 11B currently reclassing to 68W. I have served with soldiers that have been gay and do so now. The people that I have served with have all be profesional and their sexuality has never become an issue.
I sadly feel that this will change. Just as we were all at one time just americans now everyone wants to be hyphonated. Seems like this is the same sort of wedge that was placed into society now being driven into the heart of the military.
I can understand and I do empathise with people that will leave the military over this issue. I have grappled with the choice myself. I will stay in for the fact that I love my country and love what I do.
I hate that our political “betters” have forced this choice upon so many of our expierinced NCO’s and Officers.
I have a feeling this is gonna suck for a long long time, and I am not looking forward to all the sensitivity training that is heading our way.
“When the perimeter collapses, don’t worry, I won’t come crying to you for protection. You’ll be on the wrong side of the barricades anyway.”
jfxgillis, enlighten us on your impressions of this upcoming revolution/’pocky-klipse/ social upheaval. Details, please.
Personally, I’m not worried about this DADT event. The Brits have homosexuals serving & their Army hasn’t fallen apart.
Junior AG: what British army?
Regardless, gonna be hell to be a Chaplain.
Junior:
“enlighten us on your impressions of this upcoming revolution/’pocky-klipse/ social upheaval.”
I don’t think there’ll be one. I’m mocking Jonn’s belief that I need armed semi-literate homophobic bigots to protect me from the perimeter collapsing.
“The leadership provided by that 27 year Veteran is more of a loss than someone that can’t follow orders and is more interested in their sexual preference than they are about doing their job.” I agree, but can you address for me how that differs from someone who will quit because they’re more interested in the political ramifications of this stupid debate than they are about ‘doing their job’? That wrecking ball swings in both directions, and as has been dealt with here ad nauseam, just ‘doing your job’ is what it’s supposed to be about, right? Or do you believe that the military, the people’s military by virtue of the constitution, has suddenly become the soldier’s military. I know there are a good many in uniform who believe they are, or should be, autonomous, but while it is a fact that there is no right to serve, those who do serve still serve by contract to and at the pleasure of the electorate. I never kidded myself while in uniform that my environment was to always be what I wanted it to be, peace or war, and I counseled my soldiers to at every opportunity take advantage of a system that was by god going to take advantage of them. I empathize with Rob concerning sensitivity training, I loathed it myself. The 6 or so hours of it we were required to sit through once a year were pure mental torture and I have no doubt that what will be added to it by the coming policy changes isn’t going to make it any more enjoyable, but the fact is I knew it was going to be a part of military life when I joined, and anyone who’s joined in the last three or more decades knew it to, or should have. This from Rob is what I love to hear; ‘I will stay in for the fact that I love my country and love what I do.’ He hates what’s coming, but like a good soldier he’s gonna suck it up and ‘do his job.’ Bravo, that’s the… Read more »
NHSparky:
“You realize that when the barricades come down, those people you welcome with open arms will be sawing your head off first, right?”
I’ll take my chances.
@jfxgillis
Dude pick up a ruck and a rifle and come play with us. Other wise quit being a troll on this site. Honestly if you’re annoying the piss out of me you probably are a stain on the human race.
Rob D: likely it’s just trolls adding mogas to the mix.
Consider that the whole thing has been about money.
For one, since there’s been no repeal of DOMA, and the POTUS’s open support of California’s Prop. 8, the homosexual community closed it wallets to the DNC.
Repealing DADTDP is a good-faith effort on the part of Democrats to re-open those wallets and get the homosexuals back on the street getting out the vote.
With this social change should come the necessary changes in rules and regulations. That will take time, and require monetary resources. With a $10bln drop in funding, the money to hire folks and so on to re-write all those rules has to come from somewhere. My guess is for the Army, the family programs will take the largest hit. Again.
The medical issue that folks always avoid is likewise straight forward, if you’ll forgive the pun. The military will be further tapped, monetarily, to provide R&D funding, as well expand care, treatment, and such. The cost of blood, and blood products alone may be prohibitive. But if directed by Congress to provide medical care, the services will scrap MWR, housing, and a host of other quality of life issues to fund medical treatments.
There are other aspects to running a military of any size and demographic that cost big bucks. With finite dollars, any change to the system will cost money that had been budgeted for other needs, leaving commanders to operate in crisis mode.
For folks who retire, or just leave, there’s a lot of money going to be paid out in pensions, compensation, and benefits.
This whole thing is about money: the wallets of a population brought to heel in support of one political party; and the hated US military crippled financially. Neither AQ nor Russia could have hoped for a better outcome.
>I agree, but can you address for me how that differs from someone who will quit because they’re more interested in the political ramifications of this stupid debate than they are about ‘doing their job’?
How about for years the gay agenda was “stay out of our bedroom?” Now men who have been deployed multiple times in life or death situations have to come home to “sensitivity training and education” for a very small minority that “couldn’t just suck it up and do their job or leave.” Incidentally what the leadership is now telling all those “homophobes” to do. So after a year of being shot at when you just want to be with your family and get some down time, you now have to be sensitized to someone’s bedroom behavior. Nope, not worth it! Sensitivity and respect goes both ways and can’t be taught; it must be earned. And the leadership(Gates, Mullen et. al) and the gay agenda hasn’t done that. In fact, they have been so confrontational it seems they want to weaken the military not make the transition smoother. Who wants to fight in a war zone only to come back and fight within their own unit too?
Jacobite: “He hates what’s coming, but like a good soldier he’s gonna suck it up and ‘do his job.’ Bravo, that’s the type of soldiers I remember serving with.”
Thanks for making my point for me. That is what should have been said to that very small minority of personnel that are gay, but instead, it was said to the majority Which means that as a hetero soldier, you don’t have senior leadership watching your back, but instead, you have to become more sensitive to the wants of a very small minority that feel they don’t have to suck it up and do their job.
Rob:
“Otherwise quit being a troll on this site.”
That was my intent at one point yesterday, but when I checked back today it seemed like a squad of rejoinders were sniping from the high ground.
As to your larger point. No. I don’t have to join the army to be qualified to comment on particular matters of public policy and there’s nothing magical that occurs when some West Virginia 18-year-old signs enlistment papers that entitles them to greater authority in commenting on such matters.
As Jonn seems to have figured out from reading my web page, for my entire adult life I’ve been dealing with loudmouth right-wing combat vets who think they have a right to a monopoly on these kinds of political questions.
The fact that you got shot at by the Viet Cong or Noriega’s personal militia or Saddam’s Republican guard doesn’t give you veto power over the electorate’s judgment. If it did, that would mean we were living under a military junta, not as a democracy or democratic republic or however you want to style our system.
jfxgillis:
Agree that you have a right to voice your opinion even though you never served. On the other hand it is my right to comment on how little you actually know about the military.
Frankly, the repeal of DADT is bullshit if the military is still forced to segregate women and men when it comes to berthing/heads. Also, many things are done in the country today that make it appear we are becoming less a democracy and more of a Minorities rule and the Majority can fuck-off and like it. Of course that is what people like you desire; the supposed intellectuals telling the rest of us low lifes how to live.
jfxgillis:
I will always listen to someone who has been there and done that over someone who can only intelectualize about it. It would be like listening to a doctor who has practiced medicin for 20 years vs a kid still in pre-med….
Now as to having to listen to “right wing vets”. Most vets tend to be very conservative because in the army it is very true that “Rocks are hard and water is wet” we don’t have much time for liberal life theory when hard facts save lives and ideologies get you killed.
Rob:
Please. “Vets hold a certain ideology because they know that ideologies get you killed” isn’t much of an argument.
To put it another way: You don’t have time for liberal life theory but you do for conservative life theory?
“I will always listen to someone who has been there and done that over someone who can only intellectualize about it.”
Okay. Let’s reverse that. Unless you’ve been discriminated against in law and a victim of bigotry for being in a minority, why should I listen to you try to defend discrimination in law and bigotry against a minority?
> why should I listen to you try to defend discrimination in law and bigotry against a minority?
Depends on what you consider a minority. Do you consider someone in the BDSM lifestyle a minority? How about someone who has a foot turn on.. These things are preferences, orientations.. They are ingrained.. People certainly don’t choose what gets them off. Who would choose to be whipped? Something in their psyche (or in their genetics) wants the pain/arousal.
See how that works when you go into sexuality? Sexuality is very complicated. When you open pandora’s box by introducing sexuality as a “minority” and a civil right- other sexual needs are right there knocking at the door to be included. You think Gay, bisexual, and transgender is all there is?
melle:
It’s pretty clear what this law means by “minority.”
Moreover, as I’ve pointed out on other occasions, ironically, to firmly committed anti-porn feminists, most BDSM is female-dominant-heterosexually-oriented anyway.
>most BDSM is female-dominant-heterosexually
That lifestyle and sexual component is much more complicated than that. That is like saying a gay guy is just someone who hasn’t found the right girl. 🙂
>anti-porn feminists
Btw, I think porn is fine to be sold in the right context, and I am an anti-feminist.
>It’s pretty clear what this law means by “minority.”
And yet, federally/ and in other jurisdictions sexual orientation is still not completely recognized as a minority-so that is in some dispute. As well as within the GLBT community, some consider homosexuals a different gender than their hetero counterparts.
>most BDSM is female-dominant-heterosexually-oriented anyway
BDSM and other sexual identity/behavior etc. is more complicated than that. That is like saying a gay guy is someone who just hasn’t found the right girl. 🙂
> anti-porn feminists
Porn should be sold in the right context, and I am anti-feminist.
melle:
“And yet, federally/ and in other jurisdictions sexual orientation is still not completely recognized as a minority”
Well it is now in this new law.
“sexual identity/behavior etc. is more complicated than that.”
I know. Which is why the law shouldn’t involve itself in such things absent underlying criminality unrelated to preference (rape, pedophila, etc.)
I agree with all who say that this repeal is but the first step in the leftards continued attack on the military and Christians. But, instead of leaving the military, I say “SUE BACK.” The ACLU uses the threat of lawsuits to legally blackmail the average citizen / business. I say “Countersuit.” It’s time we sued back. Stop playing defense and use the courts offensively to stop the blackmail. Take a page out of the NRA’s playbook– unite and sue the he!! out of everybody. That’s why the NRA has been successful and the tobacco companies are the government’s ATM.
I know it goes against the grain for warriors and conservatives to use the whining, hysterical tactics of the left but you need to get over it. They are counting on your honor and dignity to stop you from punching back hard. Sue, Sue and Sue. And get some Black soldiers to sue so you can throw in some hate crimes, too. Remember, they are counting on the dissenting soldiers to go quietly in the night. I say, go Godzilla– smash everything in sight and spew fire at your enemies! Whatever you do, don’t go quietly…
DADT has no effect on trans people BTW. Transsexual is no more a sexual orientation than being brunette is. Trans people may be Gay, Bi, or Straight.
Yes, I agree they’re counting on your honor not to fight back hard. I guess you’re proving them wrong.
gillis: Okay. Let’s reverse that. Unless you’ve been discriminated against in law and a victim of bigotry for being in a minority,
Guess what; as a white male, I’m the most discriminated person on the planet. When I went to college, the program I wanted had a 2 year waiting list, unless I was a woman or other minority, then I could get in on the next day. Once I graduated, the grad program had another 1 1/2 year waiting list, unless, you guessed it, I was a woman or other minority. I sucked it up and charged ahead. I waited my time and still went on and graduated. Plus, there were scholarships available that I couldn’t apply for because of my gender and skin color. So fuck off with your discrimination bullshit.
#135, couple of points brother, Service members are forbidden by law to sue the DoD, the US Govt or any of its associated agencies. They passed that little gem after the flood of agent orange claims. When you see a suit filed against the Army, its an ex-soldier or usually one of their family members.The fundamental problem that civies and trolls do not understand is that while we may not agree with the idiot’s decisions, we will follow our orders. That’s what makes us better then them. We are, however, allowed to vent a bit amongst our brothers and sisters. While it galls me beyond my poor ability to describe it, I will salute the flag pole and do the do.
I have never agreed with Jacobite more.
#138 I understand that you can’t sue while on active duty. My point is don’t resign, take a stand against the nonsense every step of the way. Make them articulate their anti-Christian, anti-conservative positions. This they are reluctant to do because it will reveal just who they are. Make them do it. Make them throw you out. Then, sue, sue, sue. They are counting on you sucking it up and taking whatever BS they throw your way.
“That’s what makes us better then them.” No, that’s what makes you unemployed or a pariah in the military for expressing conservative or Christian beliefs. This “take the high road” crap is useless against a devious and deceitful enemy (lefties really do hate you). Such attitudes have allowed the lefties free reign in the universities, in entertainment, and now the military. Death by a thousand cuts. They know that they’re at war with the military and western civilization but so many on our side think it is more important to suck it up than to fight back. Then, they are so surprised that their beliefs and principles are openly mocked or dismissed while Nidal Hassan is free to give pro-jihad power point presentations.
“No, that’s what makes you unemployed or a pariah in the military for expressing conservative or Christian beliefs.”
Interesting, 21 yrs in the service, and while I certainly was discriminated against on occasion for being a non-believer, I never once saw discrimination expressed against either conservatives or christians. Was this something you were personaly subjected to BR?
War on christian beliefs in the military? I have no idea what your talking about. There is no war on christians in the military. The largest part of the chaplain corp is christian and let us not forget the whole pray before and after every damn ceremony. As a non-believer, I assure you, Christianity is alive and well in the DoD.
As far as suing the Gov’t, have at it if that’s what you want to do. I just pointed out the law. Me, I was a cavalryman, we are never happy so I’m used to it.
#141 Jacobite: “Was this something you were personaly subjected to BR?”
I am not in the military but I have family and friends who serve. Since I’m black, lefties always assume that I am a democrat and feel free to vent in front of me. It’s like being undercover at a Klan rally. So my experience dealing with them is through the university and living in California. I am a 9/11 republican and it has been an eye-opening experience listening to them rage against Bush, Palin, the evil Haliburton and the Industrial Military complex. Bleeding heart liberals who say that “Bush should be shot, conservatives make them sick, Christianists are destroying the country and shouldn’t be allowed to vote.” When you challenge them on their hate, they just blithely state “that’s just how I feel and I won’t apologize for it.” So, they think it’s okay for gay people to attack Mormons and vandalize Mormon churches. So I said “well why don’t gay people go down and attack black churches?” Silence. “Because you know that the black church goers will kick your a$$.” So, the lefties routinely trash conservatives and Christians but not the 85-90% of black people who support Obama. How convenient.
The lefties, many of them lawyers, have told me that Chaplains and religious people who have objections to the gay agenda should be thrown out of the military and banned from speaking at all events. As they say, “Christians deserve to be shot.” So, the next step on the agenda will be to have Chaplains and Christians (who are symbols of hatred and bigotry) to be banned from any activity in the military.
So after 10 years of listening to lefty lawyers trash conservatives, Christians, the military and the police, I understand them well and recognize their tactics. They really, really hate you and if their policies get soldiers killed or damage the military- that’s a feature, not a bug.
#119 jfxgillis–“I’m mocking Jonn’s belief that I need armed semi-literate homophobic bigots to protect me from the perimeter collapsing.”
#121 jfxgillis–“I’ll take my chances.”
I bet you will, Nancy Boy. You couldn’t protect yourself if your life (and others) depended on it. You’re a bitch, pure and simple, and can be read just like a book.
And I’d that to your face, anywhere anytime.
Me…24 years of service, enlisted and commissioned, in war and peace.
My problem is more with progressive fucks like you shooting off your cock holster about something you know nothing about than the actual repeal of DADT.
>#135, couple of points brother, Service members are forbidden by law to sue the DoD, the US Govt or any of its associated agencies
And yet homosexual servicemembers who were ousted by DADT sued in federal court, also it is logical that someone who feels they were slighted for ANY reason now by the military could sue if they are kicked out. As it stands the federal courts have said the military must have a compelling reason to discriminate, if homosexuality isn’t compelling, then Christianity isn’t either.
@#145
He ment currently serving service members are forbbiden to sue.
All the examples you cite are of former service members sueing, not currently serving members.