Starbucks & guns
The other day, Starbucks CEO, Howard Schultz, asked his customers to refrain from bringing their guns into his shops, and of course, a furor immediately started. I respect Mr Schultz’ property rights and admit that it’s his prerogative whether he wants to let armed people into his places of business or not. The same way I respect Denny’s gun ban – I just don’t go to Denny’s anymore. But, you know that us pro-gun people share some of the blame for Schultz’ decision. While it was fine to support their open-carry policy before this week, some pro-gun people would use Starbucks as a rally point for our cause, and I’m sure that wasn’t especially good for business. And I could hardly keep up with whether I was supposed to support or boycott Starbucks on a given day because conservatives attacked Schultz when he said he supported gay marriage recently.
I’m not a big fan of open carry, anyway – yeah, I know it’s your constitutional right to carry your gun outside your pants for the world to see, but it’s also my right to feel uncomfortable around someone who hasn’t bothered to go through the background checks for a concealed weapons permit. And mostly, anymore, people who open carry are just trying to make a political statement, and it has nothing to do with personal protection.
To his credit, Mr Schultz just asked customers to stop, so he could remove his business from the center of the controversy. I respect that. I mean, I don’t know how much my respect will impact his decisions or his business since the nearest Starbucks is 60 miles from my house, and I have, you know, a coffeepot in my kitchen. But, I don’t fault him for the decision at all.
The extremes of both sides of the gun discussion can be equally assholish. If you have a CCW permit, no one is going to know whether you have a gun or not – you know, if your intention is really protection.
Category: Guns
For open carry, against open carry, blah, blah, blah.
What concerns me is that there are many people here that are against open carry and disparage those that do open carry with name calling, just because “you don’t feel comfortable with it” or “it makes me nervous”, etc. Sack up Nancy! Why does it make you “feel uncomfortable”? Do you break out into a nervous twitch and wet your diaper every time you see some rent-a-cop security schlub open carrying? No. Why? Is it because he has a piece of tin on his chest and a snappy looking uniform? He has no more rights than anyone else and the botttom line is; it doesn’t bother me in the least to see someone open carrying, because you know that D’Brickshaw in the ‘hood ain’t gonna be open carrying, so it stands to reason that if they’re open carrying, they probably aren’t going to draw and open fire on anyone.
Pull your undies out of your ass crack and calm the fuck down.
You have a right to be safe, not a right to “feel” safe.
@51
And that’s something a lot of people seem to be missing. He didn’t demand that no one carry, concealed or otherwise, in Starbucks. He just asked people not to, and stated it makes some customers and some employees nervous.
@37, Stae Laws were also covered in the class that I took regarding self defense. To include
Obviously Lando your friends could have used a safety course if both you and your brother have been shot through negligent discharges… FOTTG=Finger outside the trigger guard. The gun is not going to shoot if you do not squeeze the trigger. or let me guess, they thoguht it was unloaded….
I’ve been pretty much staying out of the open carry discussions, though I do agree to an extent. That said, like anyone else that CCW’s I prefer bad guys not know I am carrying. At home, it is different and I open carry, but not so that it sticks out like a sore thumb. A rifle would be entirely different, have yet to figure out how to carry one CCW so unless it is hunting season, I don’t pack the rifle around, lol.
Old Trooper – you might re-read some of the comments above – there are quite a few valid reasons to not like open carry, especially in a situation in which it isn’t particularly called for. There are a lot of different kinds of folks around, and some of them don’t like guns. Learn to live with that.
@56: They can learn to live with people open carrying, also. I don’t give a fuck if they don’t like guns. I don’t like drooling moonbat leftist commie scum, either.
I have read all the “valid” reasons many times before. Sorry, but emotion doesn’t count.
FWIW I don’t open carry, even though I’m perfectly within my rights to do so.
@57
And people are ‘perfectly within their rights’ to walk around with ARs on their backs. Doesn’t make it smart. Or necessary. And it doesn’t make people see gun owners as anything less than slack-jawed, single-issue retards. Shit like that sets back any gun rights movement and gives ammo to the gun grabbers.
Wow, I guess people don’t like someone who abides by the law and love their rights. And you all are right. Someone who can’t flex their body right and can’t jog without pain can’t possibly be strong. I mean I did only move 600 pound cotton bales 12 hours a day for a few years at a place called Avondale mills. I mean, a guy can’t strengthen their muscles to help counter their back and neck problems. That never happens.
I never insulted people here, never called names and was calm the entire time. So, I respectfully bow out of the arguments here about rights and how people can you know, use them without being stupid or ignorant as people here claim is impossible. Still like pretty much all of you and respect you and your opinions and service if applicable.
And no, when my brother was shot, no finger on the trigger. Slide release was hit to load a round from the mag after a bushing comp was added and the pistol fired as the slide slammed forward. SLED couldn’t explain it either and for my shooting, people were trespassing and shooting at my range. Luckily the trees caught most of the pellets.
Old Trooper: The biggest argument against open carry are the attention-whore clowns who open carry. There’s no reason to open carry in the city unless you’re trying to make a statement, IOW, unless you’re an attention whore. Open carry doesn’t “scare” me, it pisses me off because the idiots who (mistakenly) believe that the 2nd amendment allows them to carry handguns openly on the street are going to simply cause the cities and states to start passing more restrictive laws.
After Heller and McDonald, we pretty much won the gun debate, rubbing our opponents faces in it and flaunting our guns in public is going to do nothing but generate a backlash that will hurt all of us.
^^^^ What martinjmpr said.
Old Trooper, I have no concerns about my personal safety. I narrowly missed being shot in a negligent discharge in Baghdad – how safe should I feel with some who knows what with unknown training hauling around his gun like Wyatt Earp? You’d best give a fuck, because otherwise non-owners will eventually legislate us off the map, and we’ll be watching guys like you taken down in some cabin in the middle of the woods on CNN.
This is a slippery slope, allowing business owners to make decisions regarding their own businesses. Next thing you know, businesses will refuse service if you’re not wearing shoes or shirt, either! Ohh the humanity.
Ok; for the last time, I don’t open carry, so your fantasy about me being taken down in some cabin in the middle of the woods (#62) is a moot point. Sorry to disappoint you.
As for the whole thing about open carry hurting us all; only if we let it. Let’s fight emotion with facts (#60); show me the statistics of where open carry is a huge problem as far as criminal activity is concerned. Please show me the numbers to back up your argument. THAT’s what is needed, not emotionalism. You can probably count on one hand the number of times someone open carrying was involved in a crime involving firearms, in this country in the last 50 years. As for untrained versus trained (#59); if you are wearing your sidearm on your side and not handling it, then there’s a good possibility that nothing is going to happen, unless you have one of those eeeevil guns that likes to jump out of the holster and start blasting away. I’m more concerned about drunk drivers than I am about a person open carrying their firearm. Maybe we should ban booze?
No one “needs” to open carry, but then again, no one “needs” to do a damn thing other than die and pay taxes.
You guys make we want to go out and buy one of these 80’s cliché shirts that say “Guns don’t kill people, I do.”
Geez.
@64: It’s not about statistics, it’s about public perception. Like it or not, people who don’t own guns, and who don’t like guns, get to vote, too.
So if these morons keep walking around strapped like they’re in Kandahar then it won’t be long before the city council (if not the state legislature) realizes that there’s a “problem” that needs to be solved, which will almost certainly result in restricting the rights of us normal people who don’t feel the need to show off our hardware.
Faggot hipster assault my senses every day. I applaud the brave individuals that go into their den to make them feel uncomfortable.
Eat shit, hippies.
@66: I have yet to see anyone “strapped like they’re in Kandahar” and in fact, many of the pictures I have seen are of people just going about their business and not even engaging others.
Public perception can be changed, but if that’s going to happen, then our side needs to stop hyperventilating about someone open carrying and actually promote discussing such things with those that “don’t like guns”. Yes, those people can vote, but I seem to recall that we live in a Republic and the Constitution has the final say. So, instead of telling people they shouldn’t open carry; maybe the focus should be on helping to promote lawful carry? The reason that there are so many that have such emotional issues with guns is because we allowed the other side to dictate the message for too long. There used to be school shooting teams in this country and shooting was considered an honorable sport to take up. I used to have my shotgun in my truck at school, during hunting season, along with several other kids and teachers, and no one said a damn thing. Now, you get expelled and arrested for having a fucking pocket knife at school, even if it’s in your car. Your fight isn’t with me, it’s with the bed wetters.
My take on it is that guns are like condoms. You have every right to own a condom and carry it with you in public. If you walk into a Starbucks,a Walmart or go into a school to pick up your kids with a pack of condoms hanging off your belt you are a fucking moron.
“carry your gun outside your pants for the world to see”
I saw what you did there Pancho.
Please don’t forget this started with a business (who admittedly has been involuntarily thrust into the forefront of a very emotional debate) ASKING, not demanding, that some customers who were making other customers uncomfortable by their actions change what they are doing.
And I think it’s pretty clear that even admitted gun owning, concealed license, avowedly pro-gun people think some of these open carry gatherings go a little far and make them uncomfortable. If it makes US uncomfortable, what about the other folks? Are we polarizing them the wrong direction? WE DON’T HAVE THE VOTES to change everything the way we each see it needing to be changed… we need other people, other groups, other coalitions to work with to achieve our ends. That’s called “civilization”. Driving them into the arms of the Brady group, Bloomberg, et al will not help us.
@68: Au contraire: Do a little google searching and you can probably find pics of the guys with AKs and ARs strapped to their backs sitting in Starbucks. They were “making a point” (I guess the poing being “We are idiots.”)
WRT the law, yes, the Constitution has the final say. Unfortunately, despite the repeated assertions of many pro open-carry folks, the Constitution says nothing about whether the practice of the open or concealed carry of firearms can be regulated, which means that cities and states can (and will) regulate the practice if gun owners don’t start showing a little restraint and common sense.
And I don’t really have a problem with that, but my concern is that the law is a blunt instrument, and such laws could very well intrude on other practices like open carry in remote rural areas as well. Right now there are no laws regulating the practice because there isn’t a perception that such laws are needed. Open carry is indeed changing perceptions, it’s changing them for the worse.
And before you say, “what part of ‘infringed’…” yada yada yada, consider that there are no rights that are “absolute.” None. Ask Bradley Manning if he had the “free speech” right to release classified information to WikiLeaks. Ask the FLDS founder why he was sent to prison for merely exercising the tenets of his religion (which included child molestation, apparently.)
As for trying to make “open carry” a social norm? Not going to happen. Not in a hundred years. I can’t think of one functioning civil society in which the open carry of arms by civilians is an accepted social norm. Even in the “old west” despite what people might think from watching 1950’s movies, the open carry of handguns was practically unheard of at least by law abiding civilians.
@68 – Bed wetters?
Isn’t that another name for people who are afraid of their own shadows?
Who never go outside at night?
And who, at the same time, think it’s OK to cross a busy street with heavy traffic in the middle of the block, against the light, wearing headphones that block their hearing?
They also think that butter and eggs come from the store.
@72: I’m sorry you think that I’m a dumbass, with your paragraph about “infringed” and the need to then explain to me what that entails, or the history of such matters of open carry in history. I’m not that much of a knuckledragger and I haven’t said anything that would lead you to believe that I am. I never said anything about it being a social norm, or attempting to make it so, however, we can lessen the hyperventilating by engaging in education and open discussion. Why is that so distasteful to you? Going along those lines of “social norm”; why do we “need” open carry at all, anywhere? Maybe we should just get rid of it and allow everyone to conceal carry, instead? Everyone, that is against open carry, should be all for that; right?
Actually, martinjmpr, I think the Constitution does address the matter. People don’t usually consider the meaning of the “and bear” clause of the 2nd Amendment. The phrase “bear arms” logically applies equally to both concealed and open carry. Indeed, one can argue that the phrase “bear arms” during the 18th Century either (a) meant open carry, or (b) applied equally to both open and concealed carry (e.g., both the rifle carried openly and the “gentleman’s” concealed derringer).
To my knowledge the SCOTUS has never ruled definitively on the issue of what the “and bear” clause of the 2nd Amendment means – or how it may be restricted.
#70, I wondered how long it would take someone to notice the Pancho & Lefty reference.
Townes would appreciate it…. blew right past me. I’m ashamed
In my neck of the woods, personal weapons are always under cover. I never ever liked the “lookie how big mine ia” approach to weapons carrying. In fact, it makes me darn right uncomfortable. I never wanted to know what was under a kilt and I don’t need to see your gun.
Sigh….
“…but it’s also my right to feel uncomfortable around someone who hasn’t bothered to go through the background checks for a concealed weapons permit.”
Yeah, that’s what I’ve spent twenty-three-year-and-counting in the USAF for… so the government can require a permission slip for my Constitutional Rights…..
May I please see proof of your training, back-ground checks and government permission for your First, Fourth, Thirteenth and Twenty-sixth Amendment Rights?
Oh, and please don’t let anyone see you use your Rights in public. That will make some panty-twisters “uncomfortable”.
I used to open carry a lot from the ages of 18-23, and still do occasionally carry openly on my property or when at a friend’s hunting lease. Here’s my take on open carry (OC) and the majority of its proponents: During those five years of carrying openly in and around Richmond, VA, I cannot count how many times I was stopped by a police officer or asked to leave a store due to complaints from other customers or an unhappy manager. Sometimes I was asked if I was a cop myself–I guess that presenting a clean appearance and carrying a Beretta projects a certain image. Those interactions ranged from humorous (albeit inconvenient: a trip to the adult section of the video rental store turned into an hour-plus of questioning and having my .357 run through the database) to infuriating (having a cop get extremely vocal about my decision to carry). In retrospect all of them were wasted time as well as situations that could have escalated quickly had they been handled differently by the cops or me. I also started feeling like a target–with a gun on my hip I would be the first one shot if a crime was in process, and even if I missed the incident, I’d be a prime suspect as witnesses would remember me as the “white guy carrying a gun” just prior to (or after) the crime. Even worse was the possibility of having my gun taken and being shot with it–a situation that happens more often that it should with police officers equiped with retention holsters. I’ve had my concealed carry permit for ten years now and have yet to feel uncomfortable while carrying, or to be stopped by the police for that matter. Based on my in-person and online interactions with OC advocates, most of them carry open for argument’s sake and little else. Visiting the various OC discussion boards will give you an idea of how quickly they like to pile onto local LEOs who are “ignorant” of the law and how keen they seem to be questioned about their… Read more »
As for Starbucks: When this whole thing started a year or two ago, the anti’s said they would boycott SB’s until they changed their policy about carry (this was, at the time, aimed mostly at CC, IIRC). In response, pro-2A people countered by supporting SB’s neutral stance. SB’s sales… went UP. As did their stock and corporate earnings. I have not seen anywhere that their income has suffered since.
They are, of course, free to have any rules they want on their own property. That’s what I love about America. And we, the public, are free to respond with our voices, our feet and our dollars. And we will.
I will predict you a prediction: This half-hearted half-measure will please no-one, annoy almost everyone, and their sales… will go down.
fm2176, interesting set of experiences you’ve had. May I ask what state and perhaps county you live in? Here in the Rocky Mountain and northern Pacific staes, OC is getting fairly common, and the police and public are trained and adapted to it, with rare exceptions. I’ve OC’d in Arizona for 6+ years, Utah, Wyoming, Colorado and New Mexico without any issues. I OC in New Hampshire and Vermont when I go home to visit family. No problems there either.
“Even worse was the possibility of having my gun taken and being shot with it–a situation that happens more often that it should with police officers equiped with retention holsters.” Can you cite to this ever happening to a non-LEO? I haven’t heard of one. It gets hypothesized a lot, but never supported by actual data.
@75- What do you have against bear arms? They give awesome bear hugs.
Ranchers here show up in town occasionally with open carry. Without exception, they get the cops sicced on them (“man with a gun” calls). Without exception, it’s always either a tourist or a California transplant.
@75: There are laws that go back to the time of the founding of this country that prohibit going armed “to the terror of the public,” so clearly the founders could have conceived of some regulation on the carry or display of arms in public. Furthermore, The original constitution, pre-1865, only constrained the FEDERAL government – states were free to craft whatever laws they wanted (see Barron v. Baltimore.)
Hondo you are correct in that the SCOTUS has never addressed the issue. What that means is that until they do, cities and states are free to put whatever restrictions they want on the carry of arms, either open or concealed and until such laws are overturned they are the law.
The next question is, do we really WANT a definitive ruling on this? There are some questions that it’s just better to not ask because once you ask and are given an answer, then the answer is binding. OTOH Without an answer each state is free to craft its own rules, but once a definitive ruling comes down, it would be much easier for states to pass laws that go right up to the limit of what SCOTUS says is allowed.
I am going to keep this post handy in case I am ever asked to use the word “assholish” in a sentence. [slow clap]
You know, PN, I might just move to Montana just to freak out the yuppies coming from their peculiar, insulated worlds to the real world by wearing a Colt revolver in a leg holster.
That would give me so MUCH pleasure!
@PavePusher: While you may not have ever run into LEOs that are assholes about open carry, it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. I lived in Vegas for quite some time, open carry is legal there (gotta be careful though North Las Vegas has some laws against it that are still being fought over). I was home on leave and open carried a Kimber .45 in to the local Del Taco to grab a to go bite to eat. Two rather assholish (yes I too love that word) SGT types with the LVMPD came in after I did and acted like I was trying to rob the damn place. These two clowns pushed me into the drink counter, removed my Kimber from my holster, and waved it around in the air while asking me “Dont you see how afraid all these people are of your gun? Why did you do this, is it just to make a point and scare people?” After all of that went down I got escorted outside in cuffs and watched these two buffoons attempt to “safe” my weapon. In the process they couldnt figure out how to drop the mag, drop the safety, and eject the round in the chamber. The whole while my husband and I are hoping that neither one of these idiots manages to ND a round into their cars or one of us. Once they got done running me, my gun, the husband, his gun (which he was carrying concealed with a CCW), and my license plates I got a 15 minute long speech about how open carry isnt safe, that it was so easy for them to take my gun what did I think was going to happen if a bad guy wanted my gun, and why didnt I just go get a CCW and be a responsible citizen? And to top it off, when it was all done and over with they emptied all of our mags into the floor boards of the back seat of my pickup truck. As for the Starbucks issue, if anyone wants to be mad… Read more »
@85. This is a regional–or more narrow–issue. That’s precisely why I said “In my neck of the woods” because there are places where open carry is not unusual or out of place and, thus, no one feels uncomfortable and, if they do, THEY have to adjust.
ARoberts, I did say “rare exceptions”… 8>) And yes, from what I’ve read, LV/NLV counts as one of those areas. Did you get any of that interaction recorded? If so, it sounds like you have a valid complaint for legal action. I’m very sorry you had to deal with that, it just doesn’t seem to happen here in Tucson, or anywhere I’ve been in AZ.
@Pavepusher Nope, this was in about 2003, before everyone and their mom carried phones that could record video. I did make a formal complaint, but nothing ever came of it. Youre up in Tucson? After getting out of the Army I relocated to the Benson area. Yeah its a small town with a lot of meatheads but its better than the big city. I rarely run into trouble out here, hell the cops want to play show and tell when we chat, but there are times our snowbirds cause issues and call the cops. That usually ends with the snowbirds promising to not come back next year LOL
@90 That’s precisely the problem. There should not BE an issue with it here. It’s the stupid, cowardly, in-your-face-via-stormtrooper mentality of the “progressives” who move here that is causing the problem. They come here, “my oh my ain’t it purty up here,” and then do their damnedist to make it just like the shithole they fled.
And to be honest, I rarely carry open. I am much happier without the attention, either positive or negative, that open carry brings. Its just easier to carry concealed and not have to worry about who might get butthurt or who might want to stop and ask all kinds of questions about my gun, my holster, what ammo I carry, or why I am now carrying a wheel gun as opposed to my Kimber. Not that I dont enjoy educating people but I really dont want to have this discussion in line at the WalMart or the Safeway.
ARoberts, ah, I see. Yeah that was about the time the OC movement was just starting to be a thing. I was back in England at the time, and had just started lurking on firearms forums, reading the laws and learning about the subject.
Then I moved to Arizona in ’07… 8>)
OC has been legal in Nevada for quite some time. Most of the time its not an issue. Yeah they will stop you down on the Strip for it, but with all the asshattery that goes on down there my personal opinion is that you would be a fool to OC down there anyway. In my circle of friends, OC was fairly common. At the time CCWs were a pain in the ass to get and expensive. So we figured that OC was the way to go.
When I left the Army in 09 a big part of my decision to move here was the new Constitutional Carry law that was going to be coming into effect. I had been stationed at FT Huachuca and liked the area so between that and the laws it seemed like a good idea. I am debating getting an actual CCW though, since my DD214 will suffice as proof of weapons proficiency there is no requirement for a course which cuts the cost of the CCW down considerably.
Choice. It really can be a good thing! For instance, there are parts of my yard that I don’t go without a firearm within reach or on my hip. Not so much inside my house simply because the bears, foxes, strange wild cat creatures, and such would likely take a while to break through the door or a window.
Open carry or concealed … Howie is still sh*t bird and his coffee tastes horrible.
It’s rather unfortunate that anti-gun elements have so successfully used this issue to drive a rift between those who OC and those who CC. I prefer to CC, but I do recognize that in many States OC is allowed. I know many folks who live in those States who OC and they do so responsibly. Its their right under the laws where they live and, as long as they abide by the law, I see no reason for them to be harassed or ostracized.
However, I cannot agree with those who use their openly display firearms as a tool for political activism; I don’t consider it responsible or effective–unless you’re trying to bolster support for anti-gunners. Overzealous pro gun groups chose to use Starbucks as a battleground and, obviously it didn’t work as they intended. I hope they learn to do a better job in the future, as their antics causes damage to the image of many working to promote our 2nd amendment rights.
Finally, Starbucks. They can do as they wish, it really doesn’t matter to me. I don’t visit there because their coffee taste like absolute shit and I can get free WIFI all over the place. If you find yourself enjoying Starbuck’s coffee–seek help.
Jackwagons, idiots, open carry attention whores, armed to the teeth (seriously?), open carry idiots, discomforting, asking for trouble…All those in less than half the posts. I wish I had a crystal ball like many here. I’d love to know why people do things. It would save me making unfounded assumptions about people I don’t know. I’ve never seen so many apparently insecure people in my life. It seems that among most here the only reason to open carry is if you have only a single brain cell and want to intimidate people. So it makes you uncomfortable. Too bad. I carry openly most of the time. I do it not because I’m an “open carry attention whore”, or I’m trying to intimidate people. I do it because it works best for my situation. I’ve heard all the arguments against open carry and reject 99% of them simply because I find them invalid based on my own experience.
Hey Michael …. come here. Yes you … a little closer … closer …. FUCK YOU!