Open carry activists scare us?
Chief Tango sent us a link to a Daily Beast article which charges that the recent rash of open carry activists parading around in public spaces with their scary black guns is scaring folks away from support for the Second Amendment;
The incident is the latest headline-grabbing showdown involving open carry activists, who want the unconcealed carrying of firearms to be as normal as holding a cell phone. In groups armed with rifles and Gadsden flags, they’ve demonstrated at the site of President Kennedy’s assassination. They walk alone through state capitol buildings, and Home Depots, baiting police officers and frightening workers and ordinary citizens.
The brazen antics of this mainly libertarian coalition—think of them as the tea partiers of the gun rights’ movement—have had the unlikely effect of placing gun rights groups, law enforcement officials, and control advocates aligned in opposition. Legally, open carry activists are within their rights, protected, as they’re quick to remind their challengers, by the first and second amendment. But when does this type of protest become a menace, to the public’s safety and to the group’s own message of freedom?
I’ve remained largely silent on the whole thing although I fully support the open carry thing, the other side should be more concerned about the criminals who are carrying guns than peaceful activists. I fully understand the concerns that police might have, but none of those activists have opened fire on the unarmed. They have a right to be armed, if States allow it and just because a few anti-gun people are shaking in their Birkenstocks is not much reason to be harassing them. I don’t know about any incidents of open carrying folks committing crimes.
I’m not an open carry kind of guy and I fully understand their position, but if they’re open carrying their weapons they give the criminal something else to shoot at while I’m pulling out my concealed handgun.
Category: Guns
I am not “anti-gun” by any stretch, but open carry makes me a little nervous and I have yet to hear any good reason to open carry a long gun in a metropolitan area. Further, if you open carry, the police have a legitimate purpose in asking to see some id and asking a few questions so when they ask, don’t do the stupid.
Police with guns that I can see in public scare the heck out of me. I think that police should have their guns under cover at all times. A light windbreaker will do.
I’m all for people having rights, but getting a whole bunch of people together for the purpose of rubbing their lifestyle in people’s faces comes off a bit differently. That’s going to rub some people wrong. Switch things up a bit–say we’ve got one hippy with a drum. I can probably tolerate that, most folks could. But if we get a park full of them, things get a bit different and the police start looking for ways to keep the peace. Same thing, IMO.
I don’t open carry and I do conceal carry, a pistol, not a long weapon. I see no reason to open carry a long weapon other than to and from my vehicle for travel the range. I realize, though it is my right to open carry, that it does make some people nervous. It is my sense of being understanding of others that keeps me from open carrying. Not to say there are not times I would open carry, if need be. It does draw the wrong attention from citizens and law enforcement alike. Open carry folks are making a point and I am not always sure of the point the person is attempting to make when I see it. The statement made above is well spoken. In a bad situation the first person the criminal will turn to is the person who is open carrying. That is only common sense on anyone’s part. That attention is the worst kind to draw to myself. I agree with the writer, I would rather be the one with the concealed weapon, able to defend myself or others, than the the first target of opportunity for some thug. The current administration and in line liberals, are out to dismantle the constitution, starting with the Second Amendment. As well as the likes of Texas A&M Law Professor Mary Penrose. They have made no bones about it in their actions and now their words. If open carry is furthering their efforts then we have to decide when is it proper to make a point and how do we make it properly. This does not mean I think we should hide in exercising our rights. It means, take a step back and ask are we driving a stake in the ground to make a point and at what time are we going too far and breaking the stake off. Sorry this has been rambling, just off graveyard shift and heading to get some sleep.
I have no issue with anyone who as a part of their every day life takes part in enjoying the freedoms this country has to offer…
That said, I do have issue with “activist” who go out of their way to provoke a confrontation with Law Enforcment that they will video tape and place online as “proof” of their rights being violated. Once in a while they do stumble upon a cop who does not know the law as well as they should, but the majority of the time these activist” are simply stoking the fire and trying to get a negative response.
The in your face protesting thing bothers me.
rb325th: totally non-related note – I have a question I think you can answer based on your employment. Mind if I drop you a note and ask it?
Nothing earth-shaking, just something that’s bugging the hell out of me.
Open carry out in the woods — fine. Open carry in the city — no. You make yourself a target for criminals who’ll kill you for what you’re carrying.
Open carry doesn’t make you invicible, and it sure doesn’t help with invisibility, either.
@6 sure. fire away.
On subject: as the real estate saying puts it: “Location, location, location.” Someone carrying a rifle or shotgun openly on the street in a metro area is IMO acting provocatively, whether they intend to or not. In a rural area, maybe not so much.
When in Rome . . . .
Really I guess it all comes down to the difference between simply exercising your rights, and exercising your rights while being a total dick about it.
Seems like this is how one would go about setting up the attitude that their rights need some more limitation. How many laws do we deal with every day because of a few dicks somewhere needed shutting up?
I’m a big second amendment supporter, but the sight of a gun openly displayed in public makes me a little nervous. I personally think concealment is a polite thing to do. Just my 2 cents.
I’m a member of the NRA and an avid gun lover, but these people scare the crap out of me. They always carry over in Richmond (or they did until CA banned open carry, one of the few things the CA legislature has done that I actually liked), and you can definitely tell what kind of people they are. I only go to Richmond occasionally, and the punks walking around with sigs in full view flashing gang signs at each other from across the street is a big part of why. At least in CA, you could carry openly, but couldn’t have it loaded. So, everybody wore their pistol empty and put all the magazines on the other side of their belt. I avidly support concealed carry and would get a permit myself in a heartbeat, but most concealed carriers understand that lethal force is something that should not be undertaken lightly, and that they have a civic responsibility to be safe with their guns. The people who carry openly are 90% of the time just doing it because they can, because they want to be masculine, or because they want to show off how tough they are. Those people shouldn’t be carrying, period. And don’t get me started on people who carry AR-15’s openly in public. Jesus…
During my break in service was a police officer, then again after I retired. Live in an open carry state, and it never was a problem. May stop and talk to them but no hassles. What pisses me off are the ones who go out with the intent of forcing a confrontation, video and then claim victimhood. Also taught , part time, at a police academy and would always remind the newbies, it is gun you cannot see that may get you hurt.
Texas resident, NRA member, CHL holder, and I am at least as thrilled seeing people opnely carrrying as I am watching two people of the same sex tangling tongues. ‘in-your-face’ for the sake of being in your face is uncouth and just plain tacky. The only good I can see is that hopefully they make themselves higher priority targets than I am.
But when does this type of protest become a menace, to the public’s safety and to the group’s own message of freedom?
Never when law abiding citizens are involved…it becomes a problem when it’s a law breaking member of society, which is usually the case when anything becomes a problem.
When I lived in MN, I had my carry permit. Their permit allows one to open or conceal carry. (handguns)I’ve done both. Their reasoning was due to the fact that a concealed carrier might inadvertently “show” their gun or if the gun “prints”, they can’t be charged with a crime. Depending on where I was at depended on how I carried. There are tactical advantages to both conditions.
I now live in Texas and I have to say, their CHL laws really suck as compared to Minnesota’s, a liberal state, BTW. As far as these guys open carrying long guns, it doesn’t bother me a bit. I would like to be able to see people carry however they want. People need to get over their fear of people who legitimately carry. Criminals are typically going to conceal their weapons, anyways. For the record, I don’t mind a cop stopping and asking a couple of questions. The bigger problem is that all too often, the cops don’t know the laws and get carried away. I addressed this issue with my state congressman not too long ago.
“Sure I believe people have the right to feel safe. But I feel safer with a firearm on me,” Watkins says.
Sorry, but that’s not true at all. You do not have the right to “feel” safe. Just like you do not have the right to not be offended.
As for the article in general; meh, just another anti-gunner trying to sound logical and reasonable and not accomplishing that on either point.
As for open carry? I don’t give a shit if you open carry, or not. Those that don’t like it and get the vapors from someone open carrying can just sack up, nancy. There is no statistical proof to back up their fears or claims of “what if”. All anyone has to do is look at which states allow open carry and find out how often someone, who is open carrying, started mowing down people at the store. You won’t find much ammo (pun intended) to back up the claims, that’s for sure.
As for it being a matter of public safety; see my previous comments.
Open carry doesn’t “scare” me, it pisses me off. All it will take is one “incident” and this “activism” will be successful in getting anti gunners elected to office on the platform of “we’ve got to stop these open carry nutjobs from open carrying.”
My concern is that once a slate of anti-gun legislators gets swept into office, they’ll do a lot more than just outlaw open carry.
After reading about the dumbass in Tennessee that thought it was a good idea to open carry an AK pistol painted to look like a toy pistol, I have to question any open carry “activist” as to what their intentions really are- are they trying to increase awareness of open carry or are they trying to get the police to do something that would result in a lawsuit?
Activists scare me no matter what their cause. Activism can easily slip into fanaticism, which is always dangerous.
@20: Well stated. People going about their business is one thing, but when people try to “make a statement”, the statement they often make is “I’m an asshole.”
The Houston paper is running a series on police shootings… not only do the local polizei often shoot more people in a year than larger cities like NY or LA, about 25% of them in the last decade were found to be unarmed. There have been 288 in a row that have gone to the grand jury with no charges filed against the cops (we have the kind of grand juries where only the prosecutors testify – no defense attorneys are allowed) and the common story is that a prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich for a crime. Plus the cops here have less training than is recommended, not just shoot/don’t shoot but just in general range time. Me, I try to keep a low profile… but have already had a cop piull a gun on me in a TRAFFIC stop. Open carry around these yahoos?
OT, you remind me of a neighbor who says ‘I can play my music as loud as I want – it’s my stereo.’ Your freedom to do whatever goes as far as your neighbor’s nose – and if by open carry around a nursey you get a buncha helicopter moms upset, the law won’t be sympathetic. It’s called something like ‘creating a public nuisance’ and will get you ticketed on a good day, and could get you arrested and you’ll play hell trying to get your gun back.
Open carry attention whores are the ones that I dislike. They remind me of the gay community and their pride parades. Look at me, look how shocking I am. Dude just put your piece away, ain’t nobody got time for that.
@22: Did I say anything about “music”. No, I did not. If you want to know what my thoughts are on all this, please feel free to look at the thread posted about the Guns and Ammo editor. If you will notice, I state, in that story, very clearly that you have your rights, up to the point where it infringes on someone elses rights. Now; please point out which rights are being infringed upon in open carry?
And yes, I am fully aware of public nuisance charges, or disorderly conduct, etc., I’m not a fucking idiot, but I’m also not a pussy that loses their lunch from seeing someone carrying a firearm.
You know what scares me more than people who open carry? Uninformed people who vote, they have done more damage to this country than any open carrier ever has and yet no one is seriously saying they shouldn’t be allowed to vote.
When I lived in CA I used to open carry, because getting a CCW was an expensive and long process that just wasn’t worth it. I wasn’t a dick about it, I wasn’t confrontational about it, and almost every time I left the house with my glock on my hip, the cops would show up, not because I was doing anything wrong, but because someone was skeerd!!!!11!!!!1
Then CA banned open carry, and luckily for me the county I lived in elected a gun friendly sherif. Even with that it still cost me almost $600 and six months before I could carry again.
And I still had the police called on me. Not because they could see my weapon, but because they were skeerd!!!!11!!!!1 by the guy walking through the neighborhood with a ruck sack and his “big dog”. It was then I realized that the issue wasn’t open carry, or even a second amendment one.
Its a tolerance one.
I’m sick of people demanding that people comply with their wishes and world view, without extending that same tolerance to others. People who open carry (even if they are dicks about it) shouldn’t be the people who scare us. They might be a bag full of assholes, but they have a legal right to do so.
Its the people who demand that something be done because they are scared, that we should be afraid of. Its those people who brought us the TSA, the NSA, and an erosion of our rights in exchange for them feeling safer. Screw those people.
Not literially, but seriously we need, as a country, to stop catering to the fear crowd. We need to stop thinking of the children, and start thinking about our childrens future.
OWB-completely agree with you.
I totally agree with #15 and #20 here. I also support what Old Trooper is saying.
I open carried for years here in AZ, even after concealed carry permits became the vogue thing to get, and never had a problem with law enforcment or civilians. Oh I’d get a funny look from some prissy Yuppie on occasion, but as OT said, people who get all bent at the sight of a piece of hardware really leave zero impression on me. I never bothered getting a concealed carry license primarily primarily because of the cost, and because I don’t think I should have to pay for the right to defend myself in the best manner possible. For those that aren’t comfortable carrying openly, AZ now allows concealed carry without a permit, so either way it’s up to the citizen, as it should be.
Concealed carry-totally ok, and something to be encouraged greatly. Open carry-not so much. Contrary to the sentiments here, all the open carriers I have ever seen have been just doing it to flaunt and intimidate. I am sure there are some responsible people who just do it because they think it’s their choice and they can protect themselves and the public better that way. Still, though-there are WAY too many people abusing the privilege for me to support it, definitely the majority of open carriers. Sorry, but if you want to carry a gun in public, get a concealed carry permit.
I am not opposed to the open carry thing.
I would however feel safer if all law abiding carried concealed and were proficient in the use of their choosen weapon.
Old Trooper – because someone is uncomfortable with open carry does not mean they are pussies, it means they are uncomfortable with open carry. Open carry is fine in appropriate circumstances – while I think it’s just fine in some places, in the middle of a city it’s tactically unintelligent and pretty much unnecessary. Just as the folks who don’t believe in any guns, any time, in their lives need to realize that guns have a legitimate legal place in our lives, we need to understand the impression we give and the possible consequences of what we do. Drawing a SWAT team because 30 different people filed police reports is NOT what I would describe as a good day.
People that open carry long arms don’t scare me, I just question why they want to be a target. As for the argument that it’s a constitutional right, sure it is. With that said I defy you to find pictures of numerous citizens in the 1700s and 1800s walking around major cities doing daily errands with a musket slung over their shoulder.
@ David
Now leaving the ‘activists’ out of this equation, what you’re basically saying is I (or other like-minded individuals), should alter my behavior because it might offend somebody? Not actually inconvenience anyone, or infringe on their rights, but simply offend someone?
Sorry, I totally disagree. I don’t have to understand other people, or their insecurities, at all. The only things I need to understand are my rights, my limitations, and the law and my responsibilities concerning it.
If you spend your life being concerned about the ‘impression’ you give others and adjusting your behavior based on that, you’re essentially living your life for their convenience. Screw that.
Jacobite: everyone alters their behavior to avoid offending others at times. Just ask anyone who’s ever hit their thumb with a hammer or stubbed their toe in front of a member of the clergy. (smile)
I’ve done far worse than swear in front of clergy my friend, lol, that wouldn’t bother me in the least.
No, I personaly don’t ever alter my behavior to avoid offending others. People should want to know who I really am, not who they want to hear. Why give a false impression?
So this idiot is driving like one and I pull alongside to deliver a very brief and profane editorial and, lo and behold, the driver is a nun. I may have bitten a hole in my lip.
Like SGT Kane, open carry was my only viable choice in firearm carry in my California town. While we did elect slightly a more 2nd-A friendly Sheriff than our former head guy (but not the VERY gun friendly guy I wanted…), it is still expensive and time consuming to receive a CCW here. being in the Army, was enough validation that I had to be psychologically screened BEFORE my application would be accepted.
All of this would be moot anyway, if the dispatcher would simply ask the panicky caller if the person is doing anything with the gun. Then calmly explain that just a man with a gun is not illegal. Route an officer to observe, then forget the whole thing.
Funny, you don’t hear about these “OH MY GOD HE HAS A GUUUUUUUNNNN!!!” calls in Arizona…
Our own personal open carry story…
My daughter and her husband wanted some of their wedding photos with their guns. We had a Western theme and the photos were taken in the nearby history park so not an unusual request. Since Golden, CO is The People’s Republic of Boulder mini me, they went to the police and gave them a heads up we would have a variety of long guns with us.
They had 3 cops follow us throughout the history park while we took pictures. They also inspected the guns to make sure they weren’t loaded, even though that wouldn’t have been illegal. All went as planned and they left once we were done.
My husband was carrying the guns, in their cases, back to the car when he was stopped by some people who had been at the nearby farmer’s market. They were quite alarmed saying “What IS that?” and freaked out when he said “guns”. Mind you, my husband was in full Western gear, hat and boots included. Obviously NOT a threat to anyone.
Colorado and our heritage are quickly going the way of the dodo. Far too many people have come here from the left coasts. We’re hoping the next election turns things around, the recalls give us hope, but we’ve also been looking at property in Wyoming, where the West is still the West (except for Jackson Hole).
@29/30: Not all states have conceal carry and some states that have open carry make it rather difficult to get conceal carry permits, even though none is needed to open carry (California was one of them). If all states offered conceal carry with the same discretion as they do with open carry, then sure, we could all do so, but it has been my experience that states have an easier time allowing open carry versus conceal carry. In my state (Minnesota) I can do either with my permit, because it is a carry permit, not a conceal carry permit. That means I can, also, carry my AR on my shoulder while going down the street. Does that mean I do? Nope, but the option is there should I so choose. Does it put the public in danger if I open carry? Why should it? As others have said; it’s the guns you can’t see that should concern you. If a person or cop sees me with my sidearm holstered on my hip, should that be a concern, or should it concern people more if I’m wearing an oversized shirt/jacket on a warm Summer day and have my arm tucked in to my side like I’m guarding something under my jacket? That’s the big problem with personal perception involving guns; the sight of a gun is the problem, not what is, or isn’t being done with it. As I have stated; you don’t have the right to “feel” safe, but people think they have the right to tell someone what they can or can’t do based on their own phobia about guns. That’s why we have a 2nd Amendment, so that those people don’t get to control everyone else. Do I give a rats ass if someone doesn’t like it? That would be no. Does someone think that their personal problems override my rights? That, again, would be no. And that is the crux of the open carry debate. Just because you don’t like it, or are afraid of the sight of a gun doesn’t mean you can dictate to the… Read more »
#38 is me.
This isn’t the 19th century.
Unless you’re looking for a fight or some sort of confrontation, why would you rub peoples’ noses in it? What would be the point? Butch and Sundance went on their way a long time ago and the ‘open carry’ idea doesn’t apply unless you think you’re actually in some sort of physical danger.
Coming home from work at 2AM in Chicago could justify having a loaded weapon on your person, but are you after gangbangers or coyotes? Both roam the streets that late at night, and frankly, the coyotes are the more dangerous species.
@40: By that logic, the leftists are correct, the Constitution is old and outdated. I mean, it was written over 200 years ago and like you say “this isn’t the 19th century”. It’s not about rubbing anyone’s nose in it, because you aren’t harming anyone. Do you think that cops and security guards are rubbing people’s nose in it (that’s a trick question, which I addressed in a previous posting about those scary looking guns)? That’s the part that people on both sides of the debate are having a very difficult time in understanding. I’m trying to figure out why it’s that hard for people to grasp.
As for coyotes being more dangerous than gangbangers…………sorry, but we will have to agree to disagree on that one.
The issue with these “Open Carry Activist” is that they are actively seeking out confrontations wit hthe police. They are not simply doing it as a part of their normal every day life… and yes while many states do not allow concealed carry and open carry is the norm, it does not negate what the issue here is. It is the cases of individuals or groups of individuals actively seeking confrontation and creating controversey where none existed. So yes Old Trooper,that is exactly the intent of the activist… to rub other peoples noses in it. Though I agree, a gang banger is far more dangerous than a coyote.
I could open carry here, but it would be an absolute waste of damned time to do it because I wouod have the cops called on me more often than not. Hell, the first thing I do when I see a gun on someones hip openly here is look for the badge next to it, and damn if you can call me anti 2A…
Yes, the original topic was about ‘activists’, I think everyone here agreed that ‘activists’ of any stripe pretty much warrant suspicion and derision. What Old Trooper is saying is that your normal everyday individual who openly carries is not an ‘activist’, and not rubbing other people’s noses in anything. If someone feels their nose is being rubbed in something by someone who is simply living their life, and not trying to make any kind of statement, then the problem lies with the offended parties perceptions, not the other guys actions.
Come on down to Arizona rb325th, where the well-dressed gentlemen still wears jeans, a sport coat, and a bolo tie, and a tastefully holstered side arm is still a common enough sight that people don’t shit themselves when they see it.
@42: Why look for a badge? I’ll tell you why; you’ve been conditioned that only law enforcement or security guards can open carry a gun. Same with everyone else. I don’t open carry even though I could, but that’s my personal choice and I don’t have the right to tell someone ese that they can’t open carry because I don’t like it.
There are a lot of things I don’t like, but are protected by another person’s “rights”. I don’t like people burning the American flag, without wrapping themselves in it first. I’ve been told it is their “right” to do so, which means I can’t take that burning flag from them and wrap them in it while it’s still burning. No one gets arrested for “inciting a riot” or disorderly conduct, etc. for doing so; right? But I, and everyone else, is supposed to walk on egg shells because someone doesn’t like a person open carrying their firearm? I don’t like the Westboro Baptist Church scumbags showing up at the funerals of our fallen and making things worse for the families. I’ve been told they have the “right” to do so and that I’m not allowed to go over and shove their sign up their ass sideways with hot sauce on it. They aren’t arrested for inciting a riot or disorderly conduct for what they are doing; why should I be held to a different standard when I’m not doing anything close to what they are? We are told to behave ourselves around others, when they do something that offends us, makes us angry, etc., yet those who open carry aren’t given the same consideration; why?
Yeah, what 43 said 🙂
@ 1: Susan, I am not “anti-speaking” by any stretch, but people openly speaking in public makes me a little nervous, and I have yet to hear any good reason to openly speak out in a metropolitian area. Further, if you openly speak in public, the police have a legitimate purpose in asking to see some ID and asking a few questions, so when they ask, don’t do the stupid.
@ 3: Yeah, no-one should every get together in public “for the purpose of rubbing their lifestyle in people’s faces… That’s going to rub some people wrong.”
Too effen’ bad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selma_to_Montgomery_marches
P.S. @ 3: “But if we get a park full of them, things get a bit different and the police start looking for ways to keep the peace.”
WTF?!
How do you “keep the peace” against people being lawful and peaceful? Do you “keep the peace” by detaining them for being lawful and peaceful?
Fornicate me running….
@ 4: ” The statement made above is well spoken. In a bad situation the first person the criminal will turn to is the person who is open carrying. That is only common sense on anyone’s part.”
So I’m sure you can cite to statistically significant numbers of instances of this occuring, amIrite?
We’ll wait for you to dig some up. How about 10 times? Or, to be kind, 5. That should make for a good start, but won’t meet the criteria for “significant”.
@ 5: “… I do have issue with “activist” who go out of their way to provoke a confrontation with Law Enforcment that they will video tape and place online as “proof” of their rights being violated.”
Merely exercising the Right, peacefully and lawfully, in no way counts as “provoking”. If the police go out of their way to confront a lawful Citizen, without lawful cause, that is on the police, not the Citizen, and the police deserve anything that happens to them for it.
Why would any police officer interfere with a Citizen who isn’t breaking laws or creating a dangerous situation?