Zimmerman trial controversy
I guess the big story for veterans in regards to the Zimmerman trial isn’t the incredible witnesses or the 911 calls, but rather why a cop who was testifying was wearing an occupation ribbon, among other military decorations on the stand. I’ve got an avalanche of emails, Facebook messages and stuff about it. Even Navy Cross recipient Jeremiah Workman got involved, I guess. From the Military Times;
The Sanford Police Department could not immediately be reached for comment. But Workman got a hold of them and said they told him they didn’t have their own awards system, so they went to the Army-Navy store around the corner and picked out Defense Department military ribbons to fit their own format. The WWII was selected, the police department official told Workman, because they knew there weren’t many veterans from that period alive so they didn’t think people would notice.
“At the end of his explanation I thought to myself, ‘So that makes it all better now because these guys are dead?’ ” Workman said. ”The fact that that was their response is still pretty shameful, I think.”
Honestly, I don’t see what the big deal is. As a commenter at Military Times said, there are only so many patterns that will fit on an inch-and-a-half piece of ribbon. As long as the police aren’t pinning Navy Crosses and Medals of Honor to their uniforms and claiming that they earned those ribbons, I don’t see the problem. I appreciate them being gentle with tax payer dollars. While I certainly wish they’d use other ribbons, I’m sure that between the five services, they’ve probably got every color scheme covered already.
Now if the officer was wearing a military uniform and those ribbons, I’d probably have a problem if she hadn’t earned any of them. But, it’s not stolen valor, in my opinion, unless she is trying to convince the media that she really did occupy Berlin at the end of World War II.
Category: Who knows
It is a non issue. That police department and others came up with their own awards system using existing ribbons fro mthe military in order to save a few bucks. She and others are not trying to portray themselves as having been awarded the military equivelant.
All for busting out posers wearing Military Awards pretending they earned them, but this is not the case. Sure, they should develop their own… but it is not Stolen valor.
I get where they’re coming from, but I think it would have made more sense (maybe) if they had gone to the State of Florida and worked out some deal in which Sanford PD was allowed to adapt/adopt the ribbons Florida uses as state awards for the National Guard.
I kind of politely disagree.
They’re civilian law enforcement.
DO NOT WEAR MILITARY DECORATIONS!!! (from ANY ERA, IF. YOU. HAVE.NOT. EARNED.THEM! *PERIOD*
If we can do this just for our own amusement then these farkers can make up their OWN got-damn awards.
http://www.strangemilitary.com/images/content/4807.jpg
/sheesh…..”huff off”
I’m not completely buying the explanation provided by the SPD. At least one of the ribbons the lady is wearing is NOT from World War II. The top inboard ribbon is the ribbon for the Defense Distinguished Service Medal – which didn’t exist until the 1970s, as I recall.
This is where I disagree. Cops only need to wear their rank and a badge. They’re public servants– let them act as such. Put their awards on sheepskin and let them hang them on a wall somewhere, not pin ribbons on their chest.
Holy Sweet Mother of the His Most Blessed Jesus Christ … WTF?
THIS IS A HUGE ISSUE.
The meaning, color, symbology, and heraldry of each ribbon MEANS something to many!
Pentagon Institute of Heraldry: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Awards/dec_awards_military.aspx
@3.
I agree.
They should make their own and standardize them.
But the problem lies in the many unconnected law enforcement areas and arenas.
It would be difficult for them to get on the same page.
@5 Military are Public Servants also. so should we also not wear ribbons or awards?
Police and Fire Departments have their own awards system, and yes they should develop their own award ribbons… but this is not the same thing as some assmonkey throwing on a Military Uniform and pretending to have been awards a Silver Star, etc…
Two questions:
1. “Were you awarded each ribbon in conjunction with your military service?” If the answer is no, them the ribbons are to be removed now.
2. Is it acceptable that a military ribbon be used for any purpose other than that for which it was intended? If the answer is yes, then let’s get that list together of the non-military acceptable uses.
@9 No, the military is NOT a public servant institution. They hold, or should hold, a far higher level of distinction than that. They are nothing less than the life-blood of the very survival our nation, and deserve a level of recognition far higher than any other profession, regardless of the dangers involved in the others. We should hang awards and ribbons on our military until they clank when they walk, as far as I’m concerned.
If the Police and Fire Departments want ribbons for their people, then they can design their own and pay for them out of their budgets. They need to leave the military ribbons alone.
If cops want to wear decorations (and frankly I don’t see the need) there ought to be acceptable substitutes other than military decorations.
Not that big of a deal, other departments do it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hialeah_Police_Department
One has to ask though, why didn’t they just model it after another police department that had an awards system in place?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_law_enforcement_decorations
And if its on wikipedia it has to be true…
I have seen ribbons worn by my local fire department on their dress uniforms and by FDNY and Port Authority (New York). Except for one ribbon on a couple of the guys at my FD, they had unique ribbons to denote their “acts above and beyond.” The on on my local fireman was an Army Service Ribbon and I found out that there are three awards current and former service members could wear on their Fire Department uniform, as long as they earned them during their military career.
Personally, I can understand how and why the PD uses the ribbons. Though, I do not agree, they are offering an acceptable explanation. So, at this point, I am in the middle regarding this issue. I do not think it is entirely appropriate, but their explanation is understandable.
There are web sites law enforcement agencies can purchase ribbons and other LEO awards, similar to USAMEDALS and MEDALSOFAMERICA that the military uses.
As we used to say as kids… “Go get your own.”
As the wife of a living WW2 veteran, this is offensive to both of us.
@11 in my opinion the Military is a Public Servant occupation. We served the People of this country, therefore that makes us Servants of the People, not unlike our police departments but on the global scene not the local and state like them. We, as do police take oaths to uphold and defend the constitution. We placed our lives on the line each and every day we donned the uniform, just like Police and Firefighters do in our communities…
If the Military is not a Public Servant, paid for by the taxpayers of this nation…. what are they?
To say that the Military is the life blood of the Nation is true, but the Police and Fire Departments are the life blood of our communities as well.
Hell, most cops I know have faced a great deal of danger and more so than many Soldiers I know. They deserve to be recognized for a job well done and heroic acts, just as much as Joe Snuffy for doing 3 years without getting into to anything too stupid.
I will concede that they should develop their own awards, but to say they do not deserve them at all…
PS, I clank when I walk already. Looking like some Air Force Airman (Bolivian General) with awards for showing up on time is not required.
I was awarded the Army of Occupation Medal (World War II Germany) for service in West Berlin from August of 1985 to January of 1987. It was fun to tell newbies Stateside that I had a medal from World War II.
So yes, they are the same ribbons (physically). However, their wear, and reasons and criteria for being awarded are completely different animals all together. They have made no claims as to their being military in nature (Although some police departments allow wearing of military earned decorations on their uniforms)
It’s not meant to misrepresent. I really don’t see what all the hubub is about.
Can I buy a police badge and wear it as a decoration?
everything they wear is based on the military including their rank structure. i guess they have no imagination! hell,,they even have our vehicles now.
Totally a non issue. PD’s and FD’s have been issuing award ribbons/medals for more decades than any of us have lived. They have been worn only on the uniform of the PD or FD from which they were awarded.
Anyone who wants to get their nose out of joint on this non issue really, really, really needs to look into when any PD or FD began to use a particular award device and will likely discover that some predate the use of same by the military. Then, you might try researching the assorted state NG/ANG awards. Many are a reversal of an active duty award in another branch of service (For instance, one of my earned state ribbons was a high Marine Corps award reversed and occasionally got strange looks.)
So, yeah, unless you want to invent some new colors and such, there is a finite number of potential combinations possible for placement upon a uniform, any uniform. No one in particular “owns” proprietary rights to a ribbon until it is combined with a specific uniform, thousands of which exist across this country.
@16 The military is the only occupation (as far as I know) that can order you to die as part of the job. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
And the PS was hilarious; I hope I read that the way you intended. 🙂
And that said, I’m from Northern Arizona. I worked EMS there, and I will challenge the ANY person to tell me that the 19 firefighters from the Granite Mountain Hotshot crew weren’t public servants equivalent to the military. They lost their lives defending their community and their fellow citizens. They burned to death defending other peoples lives and property. How is that any different than what we do?
We secure our way of life via Armed Service. Police, Fire and EMS secure our way of life by Civil Service, by ensuring we have a home to come back TO….So people, back off the knocking on respective service levels. We all have a role to play.
” so they went to the Army-Navy store around the corner and picked out Defense Department military ribbons to fit their own format”
Sounds like laziness to me, if you cant be bothered to at least make an attempt to design your own decorations then you should probably just be happy you have a badge to wear. Grandpa didnt go to the Pacific and earn his medals just to have a police force co-opt them for their own use, neither did my Great Uncle who was on Iwo Jima.
I’m sure they could spend a bit of time designing something that would be more cop oriented, like the noble order of the Krispy Kreme, two bronze donuts on a coffee colored ribbon.
@23: I’ll tell you how it’s different: The Uniformed Services of the United States are not there to “protect and serve”, they are there to kill people and break shit. They are an attack force, not handing out speeding tickets. Also; police are not going up against someone else that’s trying to kill them on a daily basis. The military, when not on duty, can’t walk around with their service weapon, because the police get themselves all whipped up that they aren’t the big dog in the heap if that happens. The police can arrest a member of the military for carrying a weapon, but a member of the military cannot arrest a police officer for the same. In many ways, the military is treated worse than the police, yet are expected to sacrifice more than the police.
I’m off my soapbox, now.
Oops, meant 24
I am pretty sure that was meant for me… “@16 The military is the only occupation (as far as I know) that can order you to die as part of the job. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.”
Unlike the Japanese in WWII, we do not order our Soldiers to die for the Nation, we order them into situations that very well could cost them their lives due to accident or from the result of hostile action.
not much unlike the recent deaths of firefighters in Arizona ordered in to fight a wildfire in order to protect lives and propoerty, or a police Officer in Boston killed by a terrorist in the line of duty… He was not ordered to die, but he did.
Oh, and the PS was meant to be funny. Glad it was taken that way.
@3& 26…I agree 100%. Cops/firefighters can quit at ANY time. I don’t care what the military ribbon is…it still shows a commitment and sacrifice of 24/7. Cops do sacrifice but can quit and leave any time they darn well please….just like any other civilian. Soldiers sacrifice and if they quit, they can end up in Leavenworth.
All,
One very salient point….Police and Firefighters can quit and walk away from their jobs at their leisure with no repercussions.
Military members Can NOT.
/Tah DAH.
On one hand they aren’t trying to pose yet on the other those ribbons have designated meanings. Redesigating military awards for others to wear not only cheapens their overall meaning but obviously is going to issues. The saving money bit is bullshit.
Mil ribbons are iconic and garner a favorable view of accomplishment. From ROTC to the police dick riding off that designation only cheapens it.
Just a reminder that the Army Occupation Medal was authorized for those stationed in Berlin up until 1990. Completely plausible given the age that she appears to be.
@ #23: Not quite sure what you think is happening when cops, firefighters, and EMS personnel are dispatched into city riots, but it is as likely that they will die responding to that and many other situations as in most military operations.
There are as many variations upon a theme among civilian PD’s and FD’s as there are among the military. Most members of the military do not carry weapons around 24/7 because most members of the military are not exposed to the sort of danger that would warrant it. Many PD’s really didn’t need that sort of protection either until the past couple of decades. Now, there are hazards in pretty much every community in the country.
Ask a buddy of mine in a large FD who was gut shot responding to a fire alarm. Ask any cops who work inner city beats with lots of drug use. Yeah, they are in more danger 24/7 than most members of typical military day to day operations.
I consider anyone whose pay comes from taxpayers a “public servant.” The money paying the military does not drop magically out the sky! But, I also agree that military service should be something of a higher calling. But then, so should it be for police, fire, EMS, etc, and arguably anyone who takes money from the pockets of taxpayers.
The Sandord PD has an authorized strength of 140 sworn officers. That’s 1-4-0. That’s more than Mayberry but a whole lot less than the NYPD. They want ribbons? Make ’em. Doris there can hot glue the department’s own fabric color choices over the military ribbons they’re wearing now. Problem sol-ved.
The argument that “there are only so many possible ribbons” is a cop-out. And yes, here the pun is intentional.
Even restricting a ribbon design to 6 equal-width stripes and using only 16 possible colors for the stripes, there are over 13,800,000 possible patterns (16 x 15 x 16 x 15 x 16 x 15 x 16, assuming no 2 adjacent stripes are the same color). I’d guess the US military have used somewhere between 100 and 200 designs; the states, maybe another 1,000. There are plenty of unused combinations left if a force wants to “roll its own”.
And if they’re going to re-use military ribbons, why not just re-use the ribbons for the DSC, Silver Star, Bronze Star, and Purple Heart to show “extreme bravery”, “conspicuous bravery”, “bravery”, and “wounded in line of duty”, respectively? After all, those already exist too. And they’re not wearing them on a military uniform, right?
Sorry. If a police force wants to establish medals and ribbons as part of an awards system, fine. But IMO, they should “roll their own” vice appropriating the existing military ribbons. Those already have assigned symbolic meaning.
There are first responder ribbons made by various companies. A simple google search would have provided them with what they need without using existing military awards.
http://www.publicsafetyspecialties.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=89_82_86&zenid=om5lf60r1ck3n342opjh250tq5
@24 ANCCPT: Off topic, but just this. I watched a friend of mine, who was and still is a fireman, suit up and calmly enter a building basement that was filled with gas, to find the gas main and shut it down. One spark could have blown the building to hell, and vaporized him. He is one of the bravest men I know, and typical of the breed, shrugged it off when I talked with him about it.
Your strong emotion where these specialists are concerned is certainly understandable, and I would never denigrate any member of the fire service.
An American soldier can be ordered to hold a position in the face of the enemy on pain of death.
Cops couldn’t even secure an intersection during the Rodney King riots.
Not the same.
Uh, guys? What percentage of the military force are going to face repercussions for deciding to quit mid term of enlistment? Any other than those on their first enlistment obligation and some in a stop loss situation??
Come on. It’s OK to be offended by whatever you want to be offended by, using whatever criteria you wish to use. But please don’t try to justify it with arguments that are full of holes! Not all members of the military are precluded from walking away on short notice. Maybe half?? (I really do not know and am hoping that someone around here actually does.)
Things are getting a little off topic. I never thought I’d say thing, but you need to adjust fire back into the appropriate lane.
Military, police, fire, and even paramedics all have dangerous jobs for different reasons. The difference is that the military have an oath to the Constitution and the others have an oath to the people they protect.
This is not a discussion about whose job is more dangerous or who has a higher proclivity for death. This is a discussion of the use of military awards in a city or county where they tried to save a few bucks.
On the one hand, the military awards are designed to reflect the unique circumstances of the reason for the award. In most ribbons, they have an associated medal that goes with them.
On the other hand, this police department uses the various ribbons to denote its own service rather than the military-designation of the ribbon.
I do not know why they did this. If they did it because they were lazy, then it is probably not a good thing. If they did it because they were strapped for a budget, then it is understandable but they could have done a little more research into what other law enforcement agencies use.
I ask that you try to stay on target with regards to this issue. I do not believe it is a matter of stolen valor or that they are claiming them to be unique to their organization.
Tell it to Eddie Slovick OWB.
@31.
The GPA ribbon, perfect attendance ribbon and the “Order of the World Wars” ribbon.
There are 100’s more.
In a rare moment of mild agreement with AirCav, I think an ‘acceptable use’ policy needs to be hashed out by those defending this. OK, so Police & Fire are acceptable. What about EMS crews? Consultants who work with any of the above? What about uniformed services like the NOAA Corps? Can they reconstitute these ribbons for their purposes? Going with the ‘public service’ angle, what about teachers? Can they wear WWII-era ribbons provided they alter the meaning to reflect some sort of milestone of work?
I like the idea of savings cost, but using WWII awards seems unnecessary and coming up with an acceptable use policy is likely more difficult than simply putting together a police standard – even if some colors are duplicate with the military ones.
Sorry, not acceptable. There’s a cottage industry that designs and sells ribbons and other awards to Public Safety/First responder personnel.
Heck, JROTC has its own array of ribbons. There’s any number of cheap and easy ways to buy ribbons that can honor the service of Police and Fire personnel without causing this kind of confusion and possible ill will.
I don’t think Sanford PD was being malicious. Just not very bright.
2 seconds on google found a supplier.
https://www.gracoind.com/pss/index.htm
Good points OWB & 68W58!
They already exist, and this isn’t the only company that makes them. No cost other than purchasing the ribbons, no different than when they were using existing military awards. I’m no detective and I found the website below with a simple google search. Are they trying to say they couldn’t have done the same? Laziness or incompetence led to their latest PR problem.
http://www.publicsafetyspecialties.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=89_82_86&zenid=om5lf60r1ck3n342opjh250tq5
Anonymous: NOAA already has their own set of awards and decorations. Ditto the US PHS. They’re also authorized to wear military decorations awarded while serving.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_National_Oceanic_and_Atmospheric_Administration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_Public_Health_Service
@ #41: OK, be glad to.
Maybe this is a generational thing. Most of my best friends through the years are guys who served in both the military and in the police and fire services, sometimes concurrently. We all saw it as variations upon a theme. All the same-same for the most part. Extensions of one career to another, a natural progression, so this “us vs them” kind of thing is entirely new to me.
Yes, I know of one particular award which the military coopted from a civilian service. Whether it was intentional or an accident is not known but no one seemed to care one way or the other. It meant one thing on one uniform and something entirely different on the other. No big deal to those on the line.
They aren’t the only ones doing it. Hell, I’ve seen employees/security guards at Six Flags Fiesta Texas wearing National Defense Service ribbons. I asked one of them what they were doing wearing a military decoration and he just shrugged his shoulders. He had no idea what I was talking about.
I understand the need to recognize ‘above and beyond’ in first responders, but using WWII ribbon patterns, or any other military ribbon pattern, because they went around the corner to a surplus store seems a little disingenous to me.
Those patterns are printed on grosgrain ribbon of a specific width. The ribbons are cut to a length that will wrap around the ribbon form, which is heavy cardboard, no glue, and clamped into place with a small brass bar. Then the pinback is added.
Almost all fabric stores carry grosgrain ribbons of various widths, colors and patterns and that stuff is inexpensive. I used some of that to make up ribbon pins for Star Trek conventions. It isn’t that hard to do and the resulting ribbon pin then doesn’t imply that someone has served in a war zone or war era.
On the other hand, if there actually is a resource as someone pointed out above, that is where they should go for this kind of thing.