TAH Poll: Contractors and Veterans
OK, so we’ve said now repeatedly that it was about 50/50 on whether a contractor is a “Combat Veteran”. At this point, it really doesn’t matter to the fight, since superceding events have taken it elsewhere. Nonetheless, I am curious what you guys think. At this point, I don’t even know my own position, so I guess I won’t be altering your opinions.
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Category: Politics
Whoever left that first comment on the poll, I changed that answer accordingly. A very good point.
TSO: that was me, amigo. Please mark me down for the revised answer if you haven’t already done so.
Public employees – military and civilian – are “public servants”.
Public servants “serve”. Private contractors “work”.
Isn’t there a button to see votes?!?!
I refreshed and reloaded but it is stuck on the “Thanks” screen.
@2 Hondo. You made my point. Thank you.
@2Hondo. Thats the best explanation I’ve seen.
One of the guys I used to work with at Home Depot, was a civilian who worked as an interpreter. He did everything that the unit he was with did, but he wasn’t in the military. It was really hard for me to not consider him a veteran. We spent a lot of time talking and helped each other out a few times. In the long run it probably would have been better if he were in the military, because his paycheck was bigger as a civilian but the benefits weren’t nearly as good.
@2,4 Agreed. Contractors are putting in work. It may be combat but it is work, not military service. Thus they are not a veteran in the legal sense of the word. “Combat experienced” might be a better description.
Part of the issue is that contractors do not share the same code of conduct and regulations that bind military veterans. This is particularly true in theater in regards to ROE. They are subject to civil prosecution (rarely) rather than UCMJ. Huge difference. Also the type of training and quality of the company varies greatly.
Most contracts are “at will” and can be terminated by either party without penalty vs the military enforcement of contracts for the duration.
In the end, it is the obligation of servicemen and the unique nature of serving that gives them veteran status. Doesn’t mean there are not contractors who are fine warriors.
At the risk of sounding like a lawyer, I think the key here is intent. If the intention is honorable, then there’s no harm/no foul. However if the intention is to claim honors that one is not entitled to, by placing in the mind of the receiver a false impression (however factually true the statement), then it is dishonest and wrong.
Doesn’t the term ‘mercenary’ still apply? How are they different from contractors?
I’m one of those guys who’ve been shot at but not in uniform.
I’ll say I worked in Iraq but not served. I’ll say I’ve seen combat but am definitely not a veteran. If someone thanks me for my “service” I’ll tell them flat out I was just doing a job for a paycheck- although my motivations were not purely financial.
Voted for “Veteran of combat” but not OIF/OEF because it seemed closest to how I explain to others what I did over there.
Depends on how butthurt they get when you ask them point-blank.
I don’t understand why the “kills the enemy” bit is in there. As the Queen would say, “We are not pleased.” I really don’t think this will mimic the original separate camps regarding “combat veteran.” I think the set up and answer choices push one way.
This question is purely based on emotion and deference because legally, a combat veteran of OEF/OIF is a member of the Armed Forces. That is based on various state and federal laws and regulations on the subject… So I don’t think the first question can be correct in the legal sense. However, I do respect the opinions of those who in good faith consider contractors to hold at least a symbolic status for their work overseas.
But it does bring this question: What about State employees? Or aid workers such as Doctors Without Borders? They are not contractors, but some have been in areas where combat has occurred. They’re not in the military, so are they held in the same regard as contractors?
But to play devil’s advocate… Contractors accompanying US forces can fall under UCMJ jurisdiction, although jurisdiction relates specifically to their role as accompanying personnel and not as service members.
@13 – Don’t Doctors without borders almost fall into the NGO category?
I have a couple of observations:
Engaging the enemy is an inherently governmental function. Soldiers in the military engage the enemy.
Contractors are only allowed to defend themselves. They do not seek out the enemy and “close with” and destroy them. Contractors are contracted to guard a building, FOB, convoy, etc… Much different rules of engagement, exposure to danger, and purpose.
And, OEF and OIF have OPORDs. To be a veteran of the Operation, you have to be in the OPORD. I think both “veteran” and OEF have specific definitions and “guarded FOB” doesnt fit them.
He put OEF combat veteran for reason. The reason is that “private security contractor who defended himself” isn’t as sexy.
He got creative. And, like you always say…explain what your job REALLY was and be proud. So…I tend to think he should be ashamed to say he is an OEF combat veteran.
A Veteran is a former member of the US Armed Forces. They may never have seen combat but are a Veteran. Then you have Disabled Veterans (self explanatory right?), and Combat Veterans… that was self explanatory until recently as well.
A Contractor works for a private company doing work for the US Government or an agency of.
CIA is not military, though they have para military but they are not considered Veterans by the above definition.
All other agencies involved, they are not considered Combat Veterans either, though maybe their individul agency gives them some special recognition?
Does he/ she rate SGLI if they get killed? If not in a Uniformed military they would call you a Merc in most parts of the world. Just my thoughts
Do they bury contractors who get killed in a War zone in Arlington ?
Contractor working in theater of war, for sure.
“Then you have Disabled Veterans (self explanatory right?)” No, it is not, using Teti logic. If a Veteran (i.e., one who served in the military service of the US)is diasabled in a car accident as a civilian, he would be a disabled Veteran. Damn games. That seals it. My answer choice “A contractor who….”
@ #12: So this is kinda like most polls?
@12, fair point. I suck at writing polls.
I was trying to give that option more heft, as opposed to say the AAEFES person who sells tampons. Wanted to clarify the person had engaged in a shooting war.
i didnt like the phraseing of the question, as we still dont even know what titty did. he was a contractor, the KBR chow hall guys are contractors, that isnt saying much. on our way out, i saw contractors working at a mcdonalds on camp liberty! (why did the pogs get mcdonalds and we had haji food or mres? totally off topic) for this scenario, i put contractor working in theater, for titty, until we know what he did, i wont even give him that much credit.
Let’s clarify this whole “mercenary” thing. A mercenary is someone who is paid to FIGHT wars for a foreign nation. As such, contractors are not mercenaries for one or both reasons: they are NOT paid to fight (only defend, and only in some cases), and often are Americans doing so for the American govt. Secondly, like it or not, “Veteran” is not reserved solely for military service. Often the term “veteran journalist” or “veteran xxx” is used to denote that a person has experience in various fields. While I am not a fan of such usage, it is not only accepted, it is fairly common. Now, to the crux of the matter. Contracting in combat zones runs a wide gambit of “jobs,” some of which are far more dangerous than many military MOS’s, and others of which are less dangerous than walking the streets of DC. I seriously doubt that a Force Recon/SF Veteran would be hired to wash clothes (though it’s possible). As a combat Veteran (with DD214’s to prove it), I don’t have to deal with the innuendo of how to describe a tour of duty as a contractor, but I do know many contractors that did their jobs honorably, for God and Country, some of whom went that route because, following 9/11 the military wouldn’t get them back in quick enough, or because the Reserve/Guard component didn’t get them in the fight soon enough. And many of those contractors did more dangerous jobs, more professionally, than many that went to the same countries in uniform, with fewer protections, fewer assets, and less support. I also know others that collected a nice paycheck for maintenance operations on large FOB’s without danger. I also know of Senior NCO’s that collected Bronze Stars and CIB’s without danger on large FOB’s. I won’t besmirch those that performed a dangerous job in Iraq or Afghanistan, should they consider themselves a combat veteran, and I have greater respect for them, than the SGM that took a CIB for looking out a guard tower well after a rocket missed the entire FOB. OTOH, the… Read more »
I think this will sum everything up!
It was produced by guess who …
Same theater, same enemy, same bullets/bombs. I’d consider those CIA and DEA dudes operating as OIF/OEF combat veterans as well if they engaged in combat.
This is definitely a debatable term. He didnt fight in OIF/OEF. Shit I was out in middle east on a deployment and as a contractor. But be damned to call myself a combat vet. I was just in support of HR movement and PIFR slot times.
If I was him, just call himself a contractor supporting OIF/OEF at best. He could call himself a “combat vet” without the operations.
It’s different, but try telling anyone who has done contracting that. You definitely make a lot more money and have to follow fewer rules.
EdUSMCleg, right on that. Well the main reason why anyone takes a contracting job is for the money, no doubt about that. You dont get many days off, lucky to get one at times.
Having done both I definitely concur w/ 29. That being said my contracting job is sitting at a desk and conducting training development with Iraqi officers. So far from combat as could be.
A mercenary is a person who takes part in an armed conflict, and is “motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party”
That might not apply to all private contractors, but if you were offering advice shortly after 9/11 at a hefty price on counter terrorism techniques, one might suspect if you appeared a short time later in Iraq or Afghanistan as an employee of Blackwater or whomever that your motivation was perhaps less patriotic and more financial…and perhaps fitting the previous definition….I don’t know Mr. Teti’s motivation for becoming a contractor, perhaps it was patriotic perhaps it was financial. Based on his current behavior I would suspect it was financial.
Remember, all, that there is a term/condition not mentioned here but alluded to- as in ‘Vietnam-era veteran’ which was a term conjured up in the 70’s to separate out exactly WHAT kind of veterans there were back then. Many served say, in Germany, but not Vietnam, during that period. The USG wanted that distinction, so as not to ‘color’ all those employers who may have been ‘against the war’ when they were pushing the ‘don’t forget, hire a vet’ meme in the 70s.
Nowadays, we may not see quite as many ‘Iraq/Afghanistan-era veterans’ who actually were not in one or both theaters. At least, not just yet. Depending on when they ‘end’ combat ops in AFG, there may be a few who join and don’t deploy in the coming months/years. There may be a few in the Navy/Air Force who are Iraq/AFG-era vets who didn’t deploy in support of either (because fewer of them needed to).
Yeah, let’s just make it muddier.
Are contractors killed in OEF/OIF allowed to be buried at Arlington National Cemetery…NO..unless their earlier government/military service afforded them that RIGHT! During a Memorial Day Ceremony last year the committee wanted to include contractor’s names who were killed in OEF/OIF…fuck that…I bailed and went out of town. I can assure you it will NOT happen this year.
Can he submit a VA claim for any injury while under civilian, NGO contract, and wholly outside his actual previous military service time?
If not, then no “combat veteran” claim.
Beret, that’s some bullshit, just what the hell are these people thinking? You want the honors afforded to combat veterans, then ruck up like everyone else. You don’t get to get paid like a private sector employee AND get to claim to have served. Get fucked.
If you don’t have an ICM, ACM, or GWOT-EM you can hit the bricks as far as I’m concerned.
LOL #37 InfantryJoe, thats a simplified way of putting it. Different contracts military versus Contracting. So I dont really consider it being same thing. Civilian contracting vet?
Mostly I don’t care if a veteran who deployed as a contractor wants to shorten it, but then I find it obnoxious to parse semantic points when talking to people.
I do think you should be willing to explain it if asked, of course. When this first started it seemed Teti was alright (though, having seen their show a few years back I was… unimpressed.), but obviously he’s gone over the edge.
Disclosure: I’ve deployed twice as a soldier (NG) and once as a contractor and have never been in a firefight. If that makes me a sad little fobbit, well I guess I’ll live with that.
The difference is try wouldn’t be there without the paycheck
Soldiers have to be there whether they are paid or not. It’s more than just a contractor. They are bound by oath.
WOTN, the show I think you are referring to is “Man, Woman, Wild”, and I agree with you, she is hawt. Now if only I could get my wife to talk with a British accent.
@21 That was my point… Titty kind of bent and twisted all of that to hell. I hate semantics.
@41 That show was Mykel Hawke and his wife Ruth England. Quite a difference if you were to go to Hawke’s web site and read his bio compared to that of Titi. Hawkes resume is a bit stronger… yet he is pretty emphatic about the semantics of calling oneself a combat veteran as a contractor.
@42. Okay. I thought you were stating an ironclad one (disabled vet) and setting up the others. I misread it. My apologies.
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PART I: In all of this, once in a while, someone points out that the work Teti did as a civilian contractor remains unexplained. And that’s true. Who here KNOWS what he did? There are a great many assumptions based upon what Teti has hinted at but, unless I missed it, we do not know.
PART II: Where is the record of combat engagement(s) for Teti? I have seen no corroboration, only “combat veteran” from HIM, and, again, suggestions that point in that ditrection BUT it is only his finger pointing there.
I am a veteran of both OIF and OEF. That being said, everyone’s war experience is different. The same can be said of the contracting experience. Does someone that drives the shit sucker truck around Bagram Air Base have the same experience as one that served with Blackwater protecting diplomats. I think not…are contractors “combat” veterans? That is a matter of conjecture. IMHO, no, money was/is a primary motivating factor for most. I had no choice in the matter.
@36…I don’t get your meaning. As for contractors…they can quit at any time for any reason. No matter how insane the reason may be: ..being hollered at, environment too hot/cold …”get fucked?” Wow…think not. The Spec4 making $20,000 a year called in to save a bunch of merecenary big bucks truck drivers (contractors)…that Spec4 is being fucked.
I refuse to be associated with any group who lumps contractors and military vets killed on Memorial Day. To hell with those that will erode our country’s military honor…especially those that paid the ultimate sacrafice. Brick shit.
What was the legal status of the contractors who were captured in the Phillipines after December 8, 1941? Were they POW or just prisoners?
#47 Kidnapped contractors…
Actually what would LOAC call them? Not kidnapped combatants. But Kidnapped bystanders.
@47 That is why the SEABEES were invented. Private Contractors are not supposed to be in a combat zone by Geneva Convention. MERCs is what they are, taking cash out of the DOD budget that would have gone to troops in the field. F-them.