Are guns child abuse now?
Old Trooper and Dominick sent us a link to this story about Shawn Moore who got a call from his wife that New Jersey Department of Youth and Family Services (DYFS) were at his house demanding to see his weapons. The original story appeared at Delaware Open Carry.
Last night I was out with a buddy of mine. I got a text from my wife that the cops and dyfs are at the house and they wanna check out my guns and needed me to open my safe.
I’m instantly on my way. I get in contact with evan Nappen on the way. I explain the situation. I walk in my house and hand the phone to the first cop I see. Then direct all of em outside. Dyfs got a call because of a pic on my son holding a gun. They wanted to look around and check all my guns out, make sure they were all registered. Obviously that didn’t go well because I refused. I had Nappen on speaker phone the entire time so they had to deal with both of us. They kept trying to pressure me to open my safe. They had no warrant, no charges, nothing. I didn’t budge. I was told I was being “unreasonable” and that I was acting suspicious because I wouldn’t open my safe. Told me they were gonna get a search warrant. Told em go ahead. Nappen (my lawyer) asked me for the dyfs workers name. she wouldnt give it. i asked for credentials and she wouldnt show em. i tried to take a pic of her and she turned around real fast and walked away. After a while of them threatening to take my kids, get warrants and intimidation they left. Empty handed and seeing nothing.
So what was it all about? This photo of Moore’s 12-year-old son holding a .22 rifle;
According to Moore, neither the DYFS worker nor the police had seen the picture, it had been reported to them. It should probably be emphasized that the police acted responsibly and professionally in this story…I’m pretty sure they wanted to be just about anywhere else that night besides escorting an hysterical social worker to the home of a legal gun owner.
Category: Guns
Feinstein would shit her pants at the sight of that picture. Nevermind the fact that the kid has better trigger discipline than her old, heinous ass.
http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Dianne-Feinstein.jpg
Kid’s got better trigger discipline than the NYPD and our friends the Kooky California Cops, they should hire him. Shame the ‘social worker’ probably won’t lose his job over this. Hell, it’s a shame he probably still has dignity with his job after this.
The original from where the story was taken:
http://deloc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8175
I really wish these panty twisting turds would go someplace else. I fully intend to teach both my daughter and son how to use firearms when they get a lil older, another year and they should be “big” enough. Report me all you want.
Maybe I shouldn’t try to post 20 minutes before I pass out. The worker’s she and guessing by her actions maybe she does have the last vestiges of dignity screaming incoherently at her.
Professionally and responsibly should be the minimum expectation when dealing with the police. Threatening to take his kids is probably not all that professional all though I am not certain if that was the police or the DYFS wienie…
I was told by a lawyer years ago to never, under any circumstance let the police in your home without a warrant unless you invited them there and to never agree to answer any questions unless you have a lawyer present because you never know if they are asking for assistance or if they are trying to close a case with you at the center.
No charges, no warrant, no conversation and no entry.
It’s not being difficult it’s you exercising your god given rights under the US Constitution and any LEO worth a sh1t should be able to understand and respect that.
Oh! Oh! Oh! Scary black gun! SCARY BLACK GUN!!
When I was a cop (don’t hate,) long ago, before I was paralyzed, I left a child protection-social worker standing at someone’s front porch after she threatened them with me entering their home and searching it (without a warrant) if they wouldn’t let her see the children. “… for the good of the children …,” she said, or roughly words to that affect.
I told them and her that she was full of shit, that I would do no such thing without any reasonable suspicion that something was wrong … and I left. (Side note; it was dinner time, and you could hear the kids all screaming and laughing and generally having a good time. And I had prior knowledge of this being an on again-off again child custody dispute. Something the social worker refused to listen to when I told her.)
She filed a complaint on me with my Sergeant and I got an ass-chewing, but that’s as far as it ever went.
Oh, and those kids … all grown up now. Healthy, good people, with kids of their own.
The only child protection-social worker that I ever met, that was any good, was a retired Captain from our PD. He didn’t take any BS from people, but respected their rights, and was quick to file charges on people for making false claims.
Bravo! That’s the way it works IF you keep your head and know what the police can and cannot do. But here is the bad news. If NJ is like MD, a complaint of child abuse or neglect can be made anonymously and the record is permanent. I would talk to the atty regarding NJ law.
So I’m guessing the ACLU is already representing him and suing the department for a violation of his constitutional rights?
@8. Many of us served in law enforcement here, Gravel. There is no dislike of police who know their jobs and try to do them well. But those who don’t, well, they are fair game like any other government employee–which they are.
FatCircles0311: my impression is that it wasn’t the police that were asking to see his guns to see if they were “properly registered.” I think that was the social worker trying to force the issue.
Per the NJ State Police, registration of firearms that can be legally owned is optional in New Jersey – not mandatory. The police would likely know that; a social worker might not. See FAQ, Firearms, Q10:
http://www.njsp.org/faq.html
So let me see if I understand this correctly: a picture of your child with a gun means …. what?
Some busybody said he saw a kid with a gun on Facebook.
Well, I personally would not post pictures of my children on Facebook to begin with, because it is overloaded with wierdos.
I am mystified as to what the assumption was about the photo, and why the DYFS worker refused to identify herself.
Without ID, I won’t let anyone into my house uninvited, period. I won’t even lower my car window for a cop unless I see his ID first, and it’s been years since a state trooper pulled me over because he couldn’t see my seatbelt (yes, he was that blind) and my German Shepherd stuck her head and shoulder out of my car window to say “Hi, there.”
Definitely need to take that department of self-important busybodies apart at the seams. Sounds like that silly cow is on a power trip.
I notice that the cops were being dicks about the whole thing. They had no warrant, no probable cause and they were in his house demanding the right to search. Good that they left when they were ordered but they should never have been inside at all.
Mea culpa. Read a few more linked articles on this that clarified a few things I misread. However, the cops should have escorted the DYFS worker away a lot sooner or just abandoned here there.
When I was in college, Social Work majors were just as screwed up as the Psych and theater majors. The vast majority of them were know-it-alls, anyone with an opinion other than theirs be damned, and that mindset prevails through the vast majority of child welfare agencies. Anyone remember the last time they heard of a bureaucrat being fired for incompetence? NR Pax, I agree with you wholeheartedly, those LEO’s should have either left her there “high and dry” or took her away!
There is a DYFS office, and there is someone in charge of that office, who should be fired for his or her employee’s failure to provide identification upon demand. Obviously, somebody has failed to train this government worker in the applicable law.
this will not turn out good.
Get Gloria Steinhem on the phone, make her do some graphic gestures with her hands, you’ll have a million bucks in the bank.
If not her, ask the ACLU what they are doing about this harrassment and violation of your rights. I’d also throw this in with “profiling” because DYFS is profiling you, which is unconstitutional as well.
I have to get my lawyer’s number and put it in my phone now. I live in Upstate NY so its even worse here I’m sure…
She wouldn’t give you her ID, but I’m sure the cops have it…
The only question I would have is this: Where and how did DFS get the picture? Did they troll the internet looking for pics like that, or did someone turn it in?
Outstanding son, boogerhook off the bang switch!
Social workers are employees of the state in which they work. 98% of them are idiots who have an associates’s degree (2 yrs) in social work (ASW). I kid you not. A few are 4-yr degree people. The 2% that aren’t idiots get through their careers by staying out of the business of seeing trouble where there is none. The other 98% should be given pink slips.
#17 Agree with valerie. Failing to provide identification when asked is absolute proof that the social worker was acting without legal, lawyer-approved authorization.
That the cops did not provide the social worker’s ID tells me they know they were well off the reservation.
Angry. I would pursue the DYFS in this instance legally, in the media, and in anyway I could think of that is within the law relentlessly.
Jesus, I wonder what the hell that idiot social worker would have done when I was a kid. By the time I was 12, I had gone from a .22 (age 9) to a shotgun (age 11) to full-blown hunting riles in .30-.30 and .308.
Yes, but Sparky, you and I grew up with cap pistols and played cowboys and Indians. We didn’t think it was wrong, because it wasn’t. My brother had a BB gun until he shot a chicken with it and pissed my dad off. He and I went squirrel hunting with the people at the gun club down the road from us.
None of this was considered abnormal behavior or antisocial. And none of us rob banks or set houses on fire, either.
This crap is really getting old.
I wonder what would happen if I posted this picture of my kids and nephew with my guns??
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee9/abrobb/HPIM0417.jpg
There is a chasm as wide as the Grand Canyon between the gun comfortable and gunphobic cultures. Where I live, rounds popping are nothing to blink at and no one is alarmed or concerned. It’s just the way it is. Elsewhere, pictures of a lad with a gun are cause for investigation. Go figure.
This has been going on a long time, I gave my son a Christmas gift when he was 14 it was a Ruger Standard .22 lr pistol.
After the kids returned from Holidays in January I get this call from his teacher demanding to know if that gun was locked up and kept away from the boy. This was 1990 and I told her the pistol along with the Marlin Rifle .22 lr and the Lil pal bolt action .22 he already had since 8 yrs old were all locked in a gun safe and only Me, His mother and the son had a key.
I told her to mind her own business and reminded her the school she worked for was in a different county than we lived in and I was well outside any City limits.
I told her if she did not like my answer to go and call the Sheriff.
The son said the teacher was all up in a fit of self righteous anger but she never mentioned it again to me or the boy.
Hell I have my first firearm still it was a Springfield .410 bolt action single shot given on my birthday so I could hunt rabbits and squirrels with my father when I was 10 years old.
The Son grew up and joined the Marines, worked on Choppers and was his units Marksmanship instructor and an Expert Rifleman reaching the rank of SSgt and raising four kids.
What ever happened to people minding their own GD business?
Pretty slick how a government employee doesn’t have to present official ID, isn’t it? Had I been the cop with her, I’d of tossed her ass right under the bus and land guided it backing up several times just to be sure it got her.
It stops when people stand up to self-righteous busybodies who think they know better than you what is good for your kid, even though they have none of their own and couldn’t figure out how to change a diaper or tell a 4-year-old to “get off the chair, it isn’t a ladder” without written instructions.
It stops when the hoplophobes (gun phobics) are told to jam it, and your kids get a better education at home or in private schools.
I didn’t own my first firearm until I was 18. Been catching up ever since. 🙂
Anyway, I had a couple of run-ins with the law due to BB guns when I was a teenager, so I can imagine how the hysteria has spread to reporting pictures of kids with guns. My friend and I went off to the woods one day to shoot at some cans; he with his Pumpmaster 760, and I with my Daisy Powerline. After about thirty minutes, a group of three cops came up on us guns drawn. A friendly neighbor had reported two hoodlums with “assault weapons”, and we got escorted back to my house. A bit later I was charged with “brandishing a firearm” after getting out of my vehicle with a BB gun (this time more understandable as it was a Daisy Desert Eagle). It went through the juvenile “justice” system the same as if I had been carrying a real Desert Eagle.
Maybe that’s why I spent my early adult years carrying open and wasting cops’ time whenever they harassed me for legally carrying. 🙂
Its on Fox News this morning. Pretty quick and solid turn around here.
I was a cop for almost 17 years. This ended up like it should of with them leaving and getting out of the owners house. It amazes me everyday how much closer to the edge we get and that for the most part people are so stupid that they say “OK Come on in and look wherever you want and do whatever you want”. People should worry about there own GD house and stay out of mine and my business.
Old Tanker, nice pics!
I guess the folks in NJ would love the video of my 14-year old last Thanksgiving shooting the Mini-14 and WASR-10 rapid fire…:)
Damn good thing the kid didn’t have a Pop Tart or Hello Kitty bubble gun.
@12: Then why did he mention that the police said he was acting “suspiciously”? They may have not had their whole heart in the job, however, they made enough comments to show that they were at least a little complicit in the actions of the social worker.
I live in the Peoples Republic of Maryland, and every time my kids go in for an annual checkup, I am asked if there are any guns in the house. I lie and say “no” ’cause they are great Doctors and “None of your damn business” would be punishing the messenger.
Old Trooper: the quote above says the guy “was told” he was acting suspiciously, but doesn’t identify who told him that. I’m guessing it was the social worker. Could be wrong.
I’d love to see this one end up in court, so we could find out precisely what happened. And I’d love to see the guy end up with big damages from DYFS – and from the local PD, if they were out of line. I have little patience with local bureaucrats or law enforcement officials who use their official position to abuse others.
I wonder how our little anti-gun nut Joey acts when he sees kids hunting deer, elk, and antelope while he’s off rock climbing.
Hondo, If it ends up in court would he find out who his accuser was?
@40: true
Twist: almost certainly. That’s one reason I’d personally like to see this one end up in court – to see that idiot publicly exposed.
My daughter – age ten: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snDftg9XUjI
Wonder if I’ll get a visit?
In the story, the social worker wouldn’t show any identification or credentials to the father. Guess what… you are no longer a social worker, you are an intruder. If you are working in an official capacity, then you are REQUIRED to identify yourself if asked. At that point, I would politely tell the woman to remove herself from my property until she could prove that she was a social worker.
If she refused to identify herself and provide ID, I would ORDER the cops to place her under arrest. If they refused, I would then tell the cops that she was an unidentified intruder who I felt was acting aggressively and that I was a bout to apply deadly force to a bunch of intruders. I would also call the county sheriff and tell them I had armed intruders in my house and was about to defend myself.
@47 – That’s EXACTLY what I would have done, too.
There are all sorts of warrants but most folks are familiar only with arrest and search warrants. If someone comes to my house and identifies herelf as being with ANY government agency, she had better not only show me the ID but also the administrative warrant or it’s door closed and no, you are not coming in. And, as always, give the quote for later use by you: “Have a nice day and thanks for stopping by.”
I could tell you a story about the poor census worker whose misfortune it was to get my address on his list. It wasn’t pretty and my wife was shocked but he really should not have set a foot on my porch without an invitation.