A Jimmy Carter welcome home to the troops
Chief Tango sends us a link from Rick Maze at the Army Times, reporting the news that the Rand Corporation endorses a pay freeze, a cut back in bonuses and caps to subsequent pay raises, because “Smaller military raises are “unlikely to hurt capability and readiness””.
I hear Jimmy Carter applauding loudly, because these are exactly the policies that gutted the military in the late 70s. When I reenlisted for 6 years in the infantry in 1978, I got a $2300 bonus paid out in four increments. If I hadn’t been so in love with the life, I wouldn’t have stayed. Two years before that, there was a $12,000 lump sum bonus for six years, for your comparison.
When I got promoted from corporal to sergeant, my monthly pay went up $23. And then a month before the 1980 election, Carter gave us a 25% raise. The following year, three years away from the election Ronald Reagan gave us a 36% raise.
The Rand Corporation complains that there have been years that the military pay exceeded the civilian sector. Gee, that’s too damn bad, isn’t it? If the civilians were so jealous of military pay, why didn’t they join the military – there’s always that option, huh?
Maze writes;
Rand, however, says that a one-time pay freeze or one-time pay cap has the best chance of passing because they would be viewed as short-term responses to the high unemployment rate in the civilian labor market and an effort to reduce deficit spending.
Longer-term cap caps would be harder to sustain, especially if the civilian job market improved to the point that military recruiting became more difficult and mid-career service members decided to leave the ranks to take civilian jobs.
Yeah, well, unemployment during the Carter years was nearly double-digit and I didn’t see job-hungry Americans flocking to the recruiters’ offices – but, you know, that’s just a real life example, not a Power Point presentation ginned up by a computer model and thunk on by the brilliant denizens of the Rand’s offices who probably have more military experience than me.
Couple these suggestions with the recommendations for cutting the pay of National Guard, increase the amount of training time that the military will require the Reserves and the National Guard and I see the toothless military that Reagan inherited in 1981. But what do I know…I remember jumping from the tailgates of duece-and-a-halfs as they drove down Sicily Drop Zone so we could practice assembling on the drop zone because there was no money for aircraft.
I’m sure some of you have your own horror stories of the Carter years.
Category: Military issues
What is very bad, in ANY workplace, is up-and-down uncertainty about work, pay, and benefits. I left a very good job because we kept being told about pending layoffs. They never came, but the uncertainty of being laid off made me jump. I wouldn’t have left, except for that.
I notice Rand never suggests cutting or capping bureaucrat pay/bonuses, politician pay/retirement, or limiting consulting fees.
I thankfully wasn’t around for the Carter years. Unfortunately, I was around for the Clinton years, where I had a grand total of ONE payraise that kept up with the rate of inflation.
Now I grant you, if I were in the Navy today at the position I left (E-6, over 12, over 7 for sea pay, nuclear-trained submariner, SDAP, married), I’d be pulling about 65K a year unless I was in base housing, in which case I’d be pulling in about $55K a year.
Great deal, right? WRONG.
For that “righteous” money, I’d be expected to be at sea 250-300 days a year, 7-9 month deployments every 20-24 months (whereas it used to be 6 out of every 18) where at sea I’d be working upwards of 18-20 hours a day, and in port I’d be on the boat overnight every third day with duty, and on my non-duty days working about 12 hours if I was lucky. If I wasn’t lucky, we’d be in SRA or the yards and working upwards of 16 hour days. My first boat I had 4 days off in my last four months there.
Bottom line, even with that money, I’d be making right about minimum wage if they paid me OT over 40, etc… Now be that E-6 being faced with a possibility of quite literally DOUBLING one’s salary right out the gate for an average of roughly 50-hour weeks, no deployments, no requirements to stay every other or third night, and in fact your employer is mandated to send you home after so many hours so you don’t get too fatigued!
I’d humbly suggest these fucktards who came up with this brilliant idea spend a few weeks underway or on a deployment in Afghanistan before opening their cock holsters.
My pay as a Spec 4 in 1976 was less than $400 a month. But all I had to buy was shaving cream, razor blades, a few civ clothes and bier….mostly bier….but it was good German bier. Did I mention the German Bier? It was very good.
Years later, when we got paid so much for going to a “weekend” drill in the Nat Guard– we’d often work 16 hours a day or more- with no Over Time.
On deployments, many times we were working 7 days a week and 12-18 hour days.
Now, for most of the civilains who whine about military pay–they’d have a fit. I never did it for the money…but the free ammo was a bonus
As my wise RCLPO told me as I was considering reenlisting, “Sparky, if you’re reupping for the money, get the hell out. It’s not here. All you’ve done financially by reenlisting is save the taxpayer a shitload of money by not having to train someone to replace you.”
UH, NHSparky . . . not exactly true. During the entire period 1994-2001, military pay raises exceeded CPI 5 out of 8 years. The only 3 years it didn’t were 1994/1995/1996. (I used 1994-2001 as the 1993 budget was essentially that of Bush-41 and the 2001 budget was essentially that of Clinton).
Here are the figures:
Year CPI Mil Raise
1994 2.6 2.2
1995 2.8 2.6
1996 3 2.4
1997 2.3 3
1998 1.6 2.8
1999 2.2 3.6
2000 3.4 6.2
2001 2.8 4.1
Give Slick Willie some credit for learning from the results of the 1994 election, even if it too a couple of years to sink in.
I was out at the beginning of 1999, so I really didn’t care about 99/00/01.
Sounds like he didn’t learn shit if pay didn’t cover inflation in 95/96.
NHSparky: as I said, it took a couple of years for the lesson to sink in. Starting in 1997 (that raise is based on the budget prepared in 1996), mil raises were consistently well above CPI for the rest of Clinton’s time in office.
Hondo, but granting your point, it was still a shitty time to be on the waterfront–Clinton gutted R&D, we were still reeling from the “peace dividend” started under Bush 41, and op-tempo and work-life balance went to shit as we were (and still are) decomming ships faster than building them. That also translated into shitty promotion rates, to the point a lot of rates where E-7 or E-8 was normal for a 20-year career, one was lucky to make it past E-6.
Case in point–I was eligible for CPO three times: 1996/97/98. For my NEC, there were about 200 board eligible selectees each year. The total number of CPO’s selected prior to Billy Jeff was about 50-60 per year. But for the three years I was up, it was 28/12/8, and since I was under 11 years each of those times, I was considered an “early selectee”, meaning no more than 10 percent of those CPO selectees could come from the early select list, no matter how outstanding their packages. We had SOY’s not making CPO, it was that bad.
Maintenance wasn’t getting done, or worse yet, we were cannibalizing parts, which in nuke land, is a very, VERY bad thing. All the while we were being told, “Work smarter, not harder.” Some of us laughed when we heard that. Some of us punched bulkheads. A lot of us got out.
I don’t remember the Carter years, I was too busy learning how to tie my shoes and how to read. I do remember the Clinton years where you would go to the field for two weeks training and recieve 15 blanks and were told not to use them all at once, vehicles being deadlined for 2 years because we couldn’t afford parts and not qualifying for a whole year because we had no rounds.
Didn’t the Obama administration give the Military the lowest pay raise since 1962?
I came in at the end of the Reagan Era, spared of the depravation of the carter years… though equipment was just beginning to catch up from RR’s spending increases.
I got around 880 a month as I recall as a young private back then. No OT, days off when I was told I could take them… sure we had all that free medical and room and board, but really? Equivalent to Civilian pay?
Not really when you think about when I was making 20-35 an hour, sure I busted my ass for it but I got to go home at night, eat a home cooked meal, see my kids, and to top it all off not be shot at (except the one time I got shot at working as a volunteer for Habitat for Humanity and how is that for a Carter tie in?)
During the Carter years the US Army was treated like the Job Corps. Clifford Alexander was Secretary of the Army and an edict came down that it was OK for tank crews not to speak English, if they could understand each other. Record Cat IV recruits were allowed to enlist. Social experimentation with mixed gender basic training. It was a fucking disaster. Carter did inherit “Today’s Army wants to join you.” Again another disaster.
Interesting that despite headwinds Jimma faced in late 79 thru 80 – with Iran hostage crisis (I went to school in Iran in ’78), stagflation, high unemployment, low consumer confidence, and general sense of malaise – most polling had Carter and Reagan in dead heat for ’80 election. The power of the incumbency was formidable – things only broke Reagan’s way and ultimate landslide victory with the 2nd debate in last week leading to election.
Jimma was despised by military as a whole, but Carter and DCI ADM Stansfield Turner were especially hated by the CIA rank and file. They gutted the CIA HUMINT department 20% (Halloween Massacre) in favor of SIGINT and IMINT – feeling technology could replace the case officer for most tasks. Reagan Administration largely reversed course on this, but in truth rapid advancement in technology in 80s made SIGINT/IMINT a highly preferred method to snoop with lower costs and risk to personnel.
At least nobody is calling these cuts and trimmings our Peace Dividend” YET!
BOHICA
NHSparky: Count your blessings, amigo. The Army went from 16 divisions down to 12 during 1993-1996 (if I remember the years correctly). During the 1990s, the Army’s authorized active-duty strength dropped by roughly 300,000 – from approx 780,000 to approx 480,000 – a reduction of nearly 38.5%. Promotion rates throughout the decade were pretty much in the toilet.
Believe me, it wasn’t much better in the Navy. I made E-6 off the September 1992 exam, and there I stayed until I got out in early 1999. I’m firmly convinced that I might, MIGHT have made CPO by the time I was going to retire around 2006, but only just.
Pay cuts, caps and reductions for blood sucking teachers, firefighters, law enforcement, city and state workers – good. Pay cuts, caps and reductions for the military – bad.
And just when was the last time you worked 30+ days straight with people shooting at you (or the folks you supported), Joe?
Joe, for myself, I’d rather see cuts begin in monies to foreign governments. Then, if that wasn’t enough to begin to cut the deficit, we might begin looking at domestic cuts. But taking food away from the children to feed the neighbors (so to speak) is wrong. I don’t like to see teachers, firefighters, law enforcement, or city and state workers lose any income, either.
For you Sea Dogs out there!
In the Navy we have traditionally tracked active ships as a good metric for strength. Go to http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org9-4.htm
Great historical footnotes to support numbers and trends.
The numbers are frightening. Here are some for you:
Battle Ships Highest Number: Nov 1918, 39 Battle Ships
Attacks on Pearl Harbor: Dec 7, 1941, 790 Ships
Highest Number: Aug 8, 1945, 6768 Ships
Height of Viet Nam: Jun 1968, 932 Ships
When I joined (Oct 79): Sep 1979, 533 Ships
When I left Sea Duty (Jul 89): Sep 1989, 592 Ships
Attacks on Homeland: Sep 2001, 316 Ships
Lowest Since 19th Century: Sep 2007, 278 Ships
Recent number: Sep 2011, 285 Ships
YO JOE … DID YA JUS CALL ME A BLOOD SUCKER?
I enlisted in 1976. During the Carter era the Tankers did manuevers in jeeps instaead of tanks (no fuel). We had to get a motor office to sign for more than 5 gallons of fuel. When we did go to the field, 1/3 of our vehicles remained behind for lack of spare repair parts.
Jerry … you just reminded me.
Basic numbers for that time in the Navy (under Carter): 1/2 of the ships could not get underway (or should not have) because of restrictive equipment casualty reports (CASREPS). 1/2 of the planes and helo’s could not fly. Of the remaining balance, 1/4 were canabalized for parts to keep the rest flying. Oh … and everyone was HIGH!
And Joe–don’t give me that “bake sale so the Air Force can buy a bomber” bullshit.
And compare a public employee’s retirement plan to that which is offered in the military. I guaranfucking-TEE that the public workers get a shitload better deal than damn near any military retiree.
#19
With you, but life is harsh and several cities are or near bankruptcy. Revenues simply not keeping up with expenditures for whatever reason. A scary glimse into the future. Much blame being pointed to exorbitant union wages and pension plans in some cases.
-Stockton, CA is near bankruptcy and recently several dozen cops and firefighters were given pink slips. Predicted to default on more than $20M of debt, employee pay and pensions. City expected to go into Chapter 9 protection. Yes crime has rocketed WAY up as there is serious lack of police presence, and lots of gang activity in this city. Gun laws be damn, residents are fearful and now seeking to arm themselves as police are cash strapped and will only respond to most serious incidents (namely you or aggressor is dead or dying.)
-Scranton, PA can’t pay bills or salaries. Most recently Mayor put all city workers on minimum wage, including the Mayor himself. He reversed himself after pressure from unions – Mayor will now impose significant raises on property taxes to meet shortfall. How long can this charade go on? What happens when your tax payers get fed up and decide to pick up & move?
-Pritchard, AL was in news not too long ago for filing bankruptcy twice in 1999 and 2009. The city stopped paying pensions since 2009, and HAVE not done so to date.
NHSparky: state and local workers might. However, most federal civilian workers don’t.
Virtually all federal civilian employees get a pension of 1% of high-3 average per year of credible service and have to serve until at least age 55 (or later) to get it. And they don’t get free medical insurance – they get the privilege of paying around $4000+ per year (give or take) for family coverage.
The federal civilian retirement system is better than many others. But the military retirement system is a substantially better system from the retiree’s perspective.
Hondo–I’ll take that over what I’m getting now or what I’m “promised” under Social Security. I see too many retired cops and firefighters stashing sick and vacation time and cashing it all in to make a HUGE final year to bump their pay for 25-30 years of service to a level that was actually HIGHER than when they were working. There are simply too many people who have gamed the system on our dime to make it sustainable much longer.
Had I stayed in until 20 and made E-7, I’d be looking at (after taxes) about 1300-1400 per month. Not horrible, but certainly not nearly enough to retire unless living like Ted Kaczynski appeals to you.
Oh, and our union contract is up in December of 2013. When do the major provisions of Obamacare kick in again? To say that I’m hoping Obama is defeated is an understating things just a wee bit.
NHSparky: as I said, the current federal civilian retirement system is better than many. But it’s hardly gold-plated.
For what it’s worth, here’s a comparison. A Federal civilian making $80k a year retiring at age 55 with 30 years of service would get a pension of around $2000/mo – before taxes and medical insurance deductions. This corresponds to a GS12 midway on the seniority scale outside major metro areas.
An E7 retiring today with 20 years of service would receive about the same pension before taxes – about $2000 a month (E7 over 16 base pay is $4089; E7 over 18 is $4209). However, he/she would start receiving it immediately – likely in his/her late 30s or early 40s.
As I said: the federal civilian retirement system is better than many, but hardly gold-plated. A mid-seniority GS12 retiring at the end of a 30-year career gets about the same pension as a E7 retiring from the military after 20 years at age 38. And until age 62, the civilian gets smaller COLAs.
This comparison is based on the current Federal retirement system, FERS. It also doesn’t include law enforcement, ATC, or certain other special career fields, which have somewhat more generous retirement systems (and different rules for retirement ages) but which also affect only a relatively small number of Federal employees.
The previous Federal retirement system, CSRS, was substantially more generous. However, that previous retirement system was closed to new entrants on 1 January 1983.
One other point: unlike some states and localities, federal civilian employees cannot “cash in” additional leave to up their final pay average (and thus their pension). Carryover of annual leave is limited, and any leave cashed at the end of career is not counted towards high-3 average. Additional service credit is given for unused sick leave, however.
Joe is so deep into the koolaid that he doesnt see how teachers, cops and firefighters are always political hostages for tax raising statists who refuse to cut a single dime of redundant and useless bureaucracy.
PPR: agreed. And Joe also doesn’t seem to grasp a couple of other points.
Most other public employees – even cops and firefighters – get compensation when they work overtime; the military doesn’t. And most other public employees don’t regularly get sent away from their families for literally months at a time as a routine part of their job.
Joe, what is your occupation?
@ 32- Master Chief; Joe scrapes barnacles off buoys..*cough*
System/database administrator
Joe, not all states have the same retirement pension plans for teachers.
In Illinois, teachers do not pay into Social Security or Medicare. They pay into the state teachers pension fund. That is the ONLY pension money they receive when they retire from teaching. They receive nothing from Social Security, unless they held a job outside the public school system.
Try doing a little research before you start slinging mud.
I enlisted in 1976, and things were already pretty grim before Carter got good and warmed up. At least 5% or so of my BCT company were the “join the Army or go to jail” sorts, a lot of equipment was ragged out remnants from Vietnam, and as has been mentioned, drug use was widespread. We had some good NCOs and officers, though, who busted their guts trying to rebuild the Army into an actual effective fighting force, despite what Carter & crew were doing.
The worst part for a lot of us was the pay situation, I don’t recall what I was making but there were several married guys living on the economy who were drawing food stamps and relying on other handouts and donations just to keep their families fed. IIRC, Carter even did a military pay cut in 1978 or 1979.
Someone mentioned the armor guys using jeeps to train with, I never saw that, but did see a line of M-60s in Germany range qualifying with some sort of subcaliber device attached to their main gun tubes.
“I’m sure some of you have your own horror stories of the Carter years.”
Don’t get me started …
Thing is, with all the RIFs and whatever (not to mention you’re flying some hot $hit whatever and you wake up and after 15 years, you’re going to be delegated to a Mark II Desk until you retire) there’s not a lot of security. Even as they RIF and then scramble to fill billets (sound familiar to my Navy counterparts right now??). And lets not forget combat tours overseas. No, unless you’re and O-6 and up, you’re not overpaid. You come home with a severe disability you’re definitely not overpaid. But, they’ll RIF and cut pay, as its always been done. God I hate those people who complain about government workers being overpaid. GI DOES mean government issue.
Joe .. so your a friggin’ computer geek. Air conditioned office and all the porn you can read and look at!
Let me tell you something son … I am one of those blood suckers you referred to: a retired Navy Master Chief active and reserve (1979 – 2011); former federal LEO; who continues to work for the federal government in Homeland Security. If it was not for blood suckers like me, including teachers and firemen et al, you would not be a system/database administrator … you would be sitting in a cave stringing twine between two cans saying, “can you hear me now.”
I think Joetard was insinuating that those of us who are against military cuts consider teachers and emergency personnel bloodsuckers.
He is a troll who gets his kicks out of pissing us off. He doesn’t realize that a significant percentage, if not majority, of the emergency personel are prior service.
And most people are not trying to cut public service personnel’s pay, but rein in the explosive retirement burden of these fields. The other main difference is Joe is trying to compare state to federal areas of responsibility. Apples and oranges there buddy.
Compare the military pay and retirement to other federal services and look at the insane compensation differential between them. And the sit in an office folks have a 1/10 of the responsibility and work 1/100 of the time the average military member does.
I didn’t see job-hungry Americans flocking to the recruiters’ offices
Does the military really need those? Shouldn’t all the tens of thousands of people who enlisted after the DADT repeal be ready by now?
And that’s the whole story. So, have I missed anything in the last 6 or 7 months?
#36. I remember exactly how much I made. As a single E-1 I received $378.00 per month. I so remember the future-convicts we had in BCT. I think we lost fully a quarter of our platoon on Basic. Where did you go? I was in E/4/3 at Ft. Dix.
AirCav, check your e-mail. And yes, you’ll need to be introduced to Insipid, right folks?
Insipid? Arrggghhh. You’re going to force me back into hiding!
I remember being in a P-3 squadron (a huge, shore-based, patrol bomber) at the time. We had an aircraft that never left the hangar because there were no parts available. Finally, we had to go onto the unofficial “black market,” trading parts and pieces we didn’t need (including a whole crate of leather flight jackets) to get the thing flying again. My next stop was recruiting duty. Jimmy Carter’s staff had just been quoted with “If they (military members) don’t like it, they can vote with their feet.” Thousands of us did. And it was REALLY hard to convince a young high school kid that it still a good life for him
Haha my dad said he was making $33 a month and the inscrutable Japanee was trying his best to kill him!!!
What #2 Gary said and implied.
Cut the Kongress bloatocracy first, with the automatic payraises et al.
MCPO NYC USN (Ret.),
You missed the sarcasm in my post. I think all public servants and military deserve porper benefits and retirement, many on this site consider teachers, firefighters, etc. overpaid bloodsuckers. I have the opposite opinion. Sorry to see one side pitted against the other, but that’s just what “they” want.
Explain to me then how a cop/firefighter warrants a six-figure retirement, Joe. And then goes to work for ANOTHER state agency to get a salary while still pulling in retirement pay.
Yes, double-dipping exists.