Army vs. USMC MARPAT battle ends
Last year we had a rather furious battle here when the Army made overtures to the USMC about borrowing their MARPAT (Marine pattern) uniform design. Well, jerry920 sends us a link from Fox News that says that the Army s backing off from that particular battle;
Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller, former head of Program Executive Office Soldier which is responsible for military gear, earlier told the Army Times that the Army could remove the Corps’ emblem and appropriate the uniform for Army use if it proves most effective in field tests. That’s something the Marines don’t want to see happen, claiming the uniform is their property and that Marines should be distinguished from other soldiers.
But a spokeswoman in Fuller’s department told FoxNews.com that MARPAT is “not a leading choice for the Army’s next combat uniform.”
“MARPAT is not technically competing in the Army’s camouflage efforts at all; it is being used as a benchmark pattern” along with a camouflage pattern used in Afghanistan and Navy patterns, spokeswoman Debi Dawson said in an email.
I’m glad because I just bought a set of multicams to wear in support of TSO while he’s in Afghanistan and I don’t want to lay out more money. You know when I went in the Army, a set of fatigues cost $13 and another $12 for boots. Jump boots were $20. At some point this uniform shit needs to end.
Category: Military issues
True, but didn’t you get paid something like $20 a month?
I stopped trying to keep track who was wearing what when I saw pix of Navy guys aboard ship wearing camouflage?
Wonder if the bubbleheads have to wear it as well?
Our unit got multi-cams in Afghanistan, and there was a squad of Marines doing ETT duty attached to us at the KOP. What we all realized was after a few weeks when the Korengal dirt and grime has sufficiently permanently tainted your uniform, the patterns were nearly indistinguishable. The best camouflage turned out to be dirt and sweat… Now everyone that deploys to Afghanistan is not only given multi-cams, but also all the multi-cam patterned gear as well. Personally, I almost don’t care what uniform “wins”, so long as they issue us shit that all matches (no more DCUs with BDU body armor), and as long as it’s not grey.
Zero:
The digi pattern replaced the Dungarees and Green Camo worn by MA and I think SeaBees. It seems strange since the only thing the blue digi camo will blend in with is the water if you fall overboard. Was this a paperwork reduction trick? Easier to do the KIA than the mishap paperwork?
I hear ya Bah, when we deployed in 2003 we had the worst mish-mash of personal gear you could imagine.
We weren’t even slightly sorted out till about month 8. We deployed with 70’s era woodland pattern flack jackets and black boots, months later received a limited number of tri color DCU covers for the flack jackets and desert boots, then months later still – received the up-to-date body armor with plates, but back in woodland pattern.
You would think the Army would have had this all sorted out by now. Then again, after serving for 20 yrs, I’m not all that surprised. lol
“That’s something the Marines don’t want to see happen, claiming the uniform is their property and that Marines should be distinguished from other soldiers.”
Other soldiers? OTHER soldiers? OTHER SOLDIERS!?!
🙂
Yeah, each service has to protect their turf rather than cooperate and save the government some $$$ – and also possibly prevent friendly casualties. Sheesh.
such a stupid argument. all of our guys should wear whatever works the best.
Why was there no fuss when both the USMC and Army wore the old woodland camo BDUs and three color desert camo? Now they sound like a couple of girls fighting over who had that style dress first?
We were wearing three different patterns when we deployed in ’06. Even if the Army switched over en masse today, the National Guard will still be wearing ACUs for another decade. We just swapped out our muskets for M-16A2s, after all.
HM2 FMF-SW Ret: nah, it was a bit more than $20 a month. I believe I’ve read elsewhere that Jonn started his military service circa 1974 or 1975. As of 1 Oct 1975, base pay for an E1 was $360.20; for an E2, $402.60; and for an E3, $418.20. An O1 made the princely sum of $666 per month – the Number of the Beast. (smile) See
http://www.dfas.mil/militarymembers/payentitlements/militarypaytables.html
The multicam is a good overall pattern. I thought the Army was going to gradually adopt that to phase out the dots and spots they have now.
I went to Iraq with Woodland body armor and DCUs. When I got to TOG it was Desert body armor and BDUs until UCP (ACUs) came out. For a while I made the point of wearing ACUs and training with a desert vest; a mixture of UCP, Desert, and Woodland pouches and accoutrements (complete with one OD ALICE Saw pouch); and a Woodland cover. Wanted to take advantage of the “Army in transition” phase while it lasted, but it looks like I’ll get another chance soon. 🙂
For those of you who did not know. the Corps took money out of what little funding it gets to develop our cammies. Those were funds we would have expended in any event, because we don’t give money back. I don’t think anyone else does either. And to recoup some of it, they trademarked the pattern. Apparently that is legal now. For the ones snivelling about cost, let us all just go back to green sateens to save your precious money. We could stop issuing body armor too. That costs money after all, and food issuance must stop as well. Make them kill and eat what they can. Or better yet, just fucking disband the military and we can hope for the best. Only thing is every dollar that DOD does not get, will be wasted on wetbacks, welfare cases, and all sorts of other government projects as long as Obama and any dems are in power.
@14: You went from a reasonable post to blithering idiot all in one block. Good job.
SIGO: dead on target, amigo.
USMC Steve: are you really going to defend the position that it’s more important for Marines to look “different” than to save the lives of US soldiers/sailors/airmen? I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you spoke without thinking in comment #14 abve. If not, then SIGO’s assessment of your intellect appears exactly correct.
Oh, and its wasn’t “USMC money”, fella – it was Federal funding provided by Congress for the USMC’s use. Public money. And DoD has the authority to order the USMC to share that copyright with the other services if necessary, as it was paid for with public money.
And it shouldn’t be necessary.
JL: At some point this uniform shit needs to end.
Hondo: Yeah, each service has to protect their turf rather than cooperate and save the government some $$$ …
EK: I know you guys are primarily talking about the inter-service “uniform shit,” but what I remember was the constant changing of uniform styles, items, accessories, etc. from one year to the next. Hell, there’s money to be made! And there’s more of it when the uniforms and regs are constantly being tweaked. (” … for no good reason,” I might add. I realize that some changes have a legitimate basis in improved protection against the elements and the enemy, etc.)
I thought the Marines just stole theirs from the Canadians…I said it what you gonna do?
I really like the Multicam, I wish the army would hurry up and just adopt it and get the selection process over. I think the only reason they haven’t is because some asshat would have to admit he was a jackass in selecting the useless pattern the army has now. If there is a reason to not have faith in upper army leadership in uniform matters I will point to several decisions made in the last fifteen years to illustrate my point: the ACU, the beret, the PT belt, the ASU (come on everyone wanted Khaki and green), anything that comes out of SMA Clown…Chandler’s mouth, no black boots at least in garrison…
My left knee keeps going the way it is Ill get a shakin’ cane earlier than expected…
Eagle Keeper: you obviously didn’t see my comment elsewhere about the Army “new greens” fiasco of the 1990s – my personal favorite candidate for the #1 “stupid uniform trick” of all time.
Yeah, changing uniforms just for “shits and grins” is stupid. And I’d personally love to see a study (if not a formal audit and investigation) of uniform makers, who they hired when, and how that might be related to uniform changes ever since the “pickle suit” of the 1970s and early 1980s was replaced by BDUs. I wouldn’t be surprised if we turned over that particular rock and some really interesting things went scurrying off looking for a place to hide.
@Jason: Yep, it’s based heavily off of the Canadian CADPAT.
Wonder if the bubbleheads have to wear it as well?
It’s the working uniform in port, so yeah. Underway is still “poopy suits,” IIRC.
Frankly, dungarees worked so much better. I don’t know what the hell they’re thinking. I haven’t seen such a fucked up seabag since the old guy were telling me about the days under Zumwalt.
As a nuke, I brought on Westpac a few poopy suits, 2-3 sets of dungarees, and a set of dress whites and set of dress blues depending on when we were out. The guys who stood topside/pier sentry might bring a set of trops for standing watch but that’s IT. Didn’t have room for anything else.
Now? Don’t get me started.
Found this little interesting tidbit: “The MARPAT patent lists U.S. Army research into fractal pattern camouflage as the basis for MARPAT.”
NHSparky #22: Now? Don’t get me started.
Why not?
Back in MY day the poopy suits were for the FBMs alone.
#4 captures my reservations quite nicely.
Aside: I have a blue chambray shirt that says Navy on it. Bought it at NAS Key West years ago. I wish I’d bought several though. It is my dress shirt (really)!
So, SIGO . . . you’re saying that the USMC here “pulled an Apple” and is complaining about the Army trying to “steal” an idea they previously “borrowed” from someone else – which just happens to be a the Army itself? (smiling as I dive behind the t-wall)
Kind of a hijack but a rant copied from a thread on another board…
One of my problems with the Army is that it talks a big game about tradition, but it sure as shit kills it as soon as it starts. This picture is a good example (the two soldiers preparing to jump the night before D-Day both with mowhawks and warpaint), why aren’t some members of the 101 who can trace their unit linage to these guys allowed mohawks? Why can’t Cav guys grow Sweet fucking mustaches and ALWAYS wear stetsons? Rangers wear a Tomahawk in their dress uniform? Soldiers have tattoos like Maori, Samoan, and many other warrior cultures before them?
Hondo: Yep. Go read the Patent. It very clearly lays out the fundamentals and how MARPAT was derived. So all the fanboys can relax… we borrow from everyone else then vice versa. Nothing new. It’s not like this is some breakthrough camoflauge. It was studied as far back as the late 19th century. We just have fancy computers to generate it now and the Nitick Labs even helped in the development because the Army has the labs the Marines don’t.
I personally love wearing the 1974 Zimbabwean Air Force uniform that the Navy adopted as the NWU I. Yeah, its sweet! The best part is that when the Service Dress Khakis come back soon, there is no part of that uniform that is compatible with anything else.
It’s really great these days to walk aboard a target, I mean skimmer, I mean surface ship and see everyone wearing coveralls, I mean poopy suits…gone are the days when that was a unique submariner uniform…
Hmmmmm. On the front page of the patent, it says “Assignee: The United States of America, as represented by the Secretary of the Navy, Washington, DC.” So it would seem to this layman that (1) the USMC doesn’t even actually hold the MARPAT patent – the Federal government does, and (2) that the SECNAV is the official within DoD who is the Federal government’s designated representative regarding the MARPAT patent – not the Commandant of the Marine Corps.
And I’d really hate to be the SECNAV who tried to defend keeping this away from the Army if Army leadership went public and said something like this:
“We’ve determined that the MARPAT is the best choice for our next uniform, and that it would save lives in combat. But the USMC wants to keep it to themselves – even though it was paid for with public money – just so they can look “different” from everyone else in uniform. And the SECNAV – who is the government’s designated patent holder – is siding with the USMC. I guess we’ll just have to go on taking unnecessary battlefield casualties while we develop something that’s as good ourselves.”
Yeah, I know – that would take leadership with balls. But I can dream. Because if the MARPAT is the best choice, that’s exactly the truth.
@4 Ive hear that the new navy digi’s change color if they are submerged in seawater to help them be see in the event of a man overboard.
How stupid is it that their is all this talk of the effectiveness of the current camouflage uniforms when the majority of guys are still using black rifles. We all know how good black blends in. The guys who really need to camo up for missions can and do paint their weapons and modify their existing uniforms or acquire the appropriate ones. I think that changing the Army’s current uniform is just for eye candy inside the wire or in garrison back in the States. It seems like a fashion show to me. I deployed to Iraq with sand camo uniforms and woodland gear and I never felt that I was at any kind of disadvantage.
On the use of Cammo in general….. This is supposed to assist in one concealing oneself, yes? Army n Marines, I can see theirs doing what is needed regardless of whaterver pattern. Living near Eglin AFB, I see many Air Force types daily. They wear a blue camouflage. Tell me what this does to camouflage them? I would think that an Air Force person would look best in a solid color uniform that, in and of itself, would let them stand apart from the other branches. Same for those dungarees that the navy wears. While not “high fashion”, not many people who have seen them would be confused as to which was their service branch.
By and large, changing patterns, having different patterns for each branch, could probably be traced to some politician who has caved in to a fabric companies wishes.
And, it is 0315 in the ‘Stan. Suppose TSO is sleeping? Under his rack?
Frankly Opinionated: you sure that those aren’t Navy folks from NAS Pensacola and it’s outlying fields you’re seeing? The USAF digital camouflage uniform is almost exactly the same color as the ACU, but has rather a “tiger stripe” overlay pattern. I wouldn’t call it blue. But the Navy has a tan/blue/black camouflage uniform, called the NDU, that is mostly blue.
@#33 Hondo:
No, these is flyguys for sure. See them all over the place, in town, Hurlburt, Duke, Eglin, etc. And, at an event at Camp Rudder recently, I was able to compare an AF guy with an Army Ranger. Obviously a blue, but not “in your face blue”, and quite a different shade from the Army.
Frankly Opinionated: suit yourself; we’ll have to agree to disagree. I worked side-by-side with AF types for quite a while after their new camouflage uniforms came out, and I’d never call them blue. And I’ve also worked around Navy personnel wearing NDUs. The new NDU is definitely blue, no question about it.
Photos of each are found at the following:
http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/usafcammo.jpg
http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/200410230.aspx
No matter what uniform the Army wears, it will still look sloppy on their fat ass!
I wonder if the solid coyote brown flak does a great job of concealing one’s position?
Okay, first off the Navy doesn’t have a uniform. They have a wardrobe. As Hondo pointed out above, the Shinsucki dress uniform change of shade in the 90’s was the biggest idiocy ever considered. The difference in shades of green was so slight that it was unnoticeable UNLESS two uniforms were side by side (i.e. in a formation). Multi-cam was pushed on the Army by Frank Murtha. The pattern patent is owned by a small NY company. It was ONLY approved for use (and issue) in Afghanistan, yet cost tens of millions to instigate. Does it matter what uniform is worn stateside by the Troops? No. BDU’s or ACU’s (or even MarPat) is sufficient for training. Ideally the normal uniform stateside would be the same uniform they wore in combat. It wasn’t the case in Desert Storm, nor OIF, nor OEF, not even when the Army deployed after the stateside change to ACU’s to Iraq where they wore ACU’s. No, they were issued FRACU’s (same pattern with fire-retardent). Why do the politicians want to change the uniform so often? It’s big business. That dress uniform change Hondo mentioned meant that 500,000 Soldiers had two (or 3?) pairs of pants, 3 shirts, 2 hats, and a dress jacket that were totally useless. They HAD to buy a new set at approximately (then) $30 each piece (plus a $150 jacket). This is replicated in the Class A’s to ASU’s change (though arguably a more effective change to tradition, but at a much higher cost). And that is chump change compared to the costs of a change in tactical uniform. A change in uniform here means Soldiers have to buy 4 sets of pants, 4 tops, (possibly t-shirts), and 2 hats at $60/each piece (aside from the $20 hats). But the Army has to buy new rucksacks, load bearing equipment, IBA, and all those other pieces of tactical gear. Multiply that cost by 500,000. And guess what, the Troops and Veterans get worked and emotional about it, so THEY will argue for “better camoflauge.” Want to stimulate the clothing industry? Change the Army… Read more »
True uniform story:
Going into Iraq, 2003. Arrive at Ft Bliss; going thru the ISF (installation supply facility) and getting gear and uniforms. Come to the uniform section, and the little lady behind the counter (this is July)-
‘I need a MED Short or X-short please’ (DCU’s)
‘Sorry, we out. Closest we have is Med, X-long. But I can give you winter weight SM X-long’
‘July. Desert. Winter weight. Really.’
‘All we have joe. Take winter.’
‘Can I BUY a set?’
‘No. No cash here. Do in Kuwait’
‘Can I do Statement of Charges?’
‘joe, only if you lose or damage uniform’
‘Ok. I ate 3 sets by accident.. I’ll sign charges for them’
‘Ok joe. I have Med Short for you in Summer DCU. Sign here please’
I have NO IDEA why she called me joe, or why she could ISSUE my size with ‘charges’ but not give me a set on issue????
But yeah, this was the only way the ‘system’ would work…
Okay, first off the Navy doesn’t have a uniform. They have a wardrobe.
However, I WILL say that being a nuke out of Hawaii or Guam has its advantages when you get that uniform allowance check every year.
I remember how it went–buy a new pair of dungarees and a shitload of beer. I still have my peacoat. Somewhere. Honest. Hey COB, you got any more of those foul weather jackets?
Let me say this up front: I love the Marines. when we deployed to Iraq, my Guard unit and the Reg Army unit we got attached to forgot to get us ammo. When we got to Fallujah, to work with the Marines, they asekd if we needed anything. “yep Gunny, we need fucking ammo…the Army fucked up.”
the Army got the Beret, the fucked up PT outfit, the Velcro monster ACUS, they can’t decided wtf they need to make them look better. I support the Marines in this even though I retired from the Army Guard.
When I was in the Reg Army in the 70’s, the OD green fatigues were about 6 bucks a set.
According to reliable Rumint sources: while SF were training units of the Iraqi Police, they had to decide on a uniform for their high-speed, strack students.
The moral of the story is that Iraqi Police units (some) now where the same uniform as the Marines, but with a LOT more patches, or so I’m told.
Gentlemen,
Please forgive my late entry into the fray but today was a “spoil the grandkids” day!
@26 JPJ, made a point I would like to expound on. All branches talk about the ‘heritage’ and ‘traditions’, etc., but no one sticks to it. The ‘who holds the patent’ argument on both sides is BS. The ‘alpha’ uniform my uncle Inez wore after Korea is the same alpha uniform my older cousins wore in the mid ’60s which is the same alpha uniform I wore in the mid ’70s which is the same alpha uniform my nephew wears today. The Marine Corps has done away with certain uniforms i.e., “Trops”, sateens and woodland cammo but the uniforms stayed in service for decades.
The Army has gone from BDUs to ACUs to who knows what else in the last few years. You’ve gone from utility hats to beenies back to utility hats to whatever is in vogue today. The Air Force is no different. I remember seeing, a few years ago, their proposed new dress uniform that was a direct rip-off of the Marine dress blues. The Navy, to their credit, has stayed pretty much with their “Good Humor Man” whites and their “Waffen SS” blacks. Although shouldn’t their cammies be grey to match their ships?
During this whole time the Marine Coprs has stayed true to our heritage and traditions. I know, were too dumb to change but I’d rather be too dumb to change than change with every fashion trend that comes along.
#11, beg to differ – December 1976 when I went in, an E-3 base pay was $300 even a month. Few months later it went up to $330… hot damn. Pickle suit was (as stated) around $13 or so, when BDUs came in (first ones we saw were ’81) they were $35. Had “special infra-red resistant coating” to make you harder to see which required cold water wash and minimal dry, no ironing. Of course they looked like shit so that changed quickly to “iron no starch” then “starch and they better be sharp!” within a short time. Screw all the money dropped into the R&D, commanders wanted their unit STRAC! And yeah, ever since, it has been big-bucks uniform changes lining the pockets of clothing contractors and procurement officers who “happen” to go to work for said contractors the day they retire.
Dave (@46): Not calling you a liar, but that’s not what DFAS says. Their published military pay tables, effective 1 Oct 1976, say an E1 got $374.40 in base pay in Dec 1976. Per DFAS records available on-line, E1s got the same pay, regardless of TIS, from 1972-1984; it wasn’t until 1 Jan 1985 that E1s w/less than 4 mo in service again started getting paid less than E1s w/more than 4 mo in service (per DFAS, E1s w/less than 4 mo in service were paid less most if not all years from 1949 to 1971, inclusive). DFAS pay tables available on-line go back to 1949. See the link in my comment 11 above.
What’s posted there generally matches my memory, but I’m not going to go and find one of my own pay vouchers from 35+ years ago (if I can even still find any of them) and spot-check them. Since DFAS is the official paymaster for DoD, I tend to accept their records and publications as being correct regarding who got paid how much until I see evidence to the contrary.
Damn. That should be (@44) vice (@46) in my previous comment. Oops.
I think you’re forgetting the fact that the USMC has changed their field uniform, Yat Yas – to the MARPAT that we’re discussing here – a bit over 10 years ago. And I’d even guess that the fabric specified for use in the dress uniform might have changed since synthetics were invented, too. But I do agree that the USMC has been hugely more consistent than the other 3 services over history regarding their uniforms.
WOTN: you’re a bit short, amigo. Add in the ARNG and USAR, and you’re talking over 1,000,000 folks that need new uniforms when one changes. Plus associated field gear, whenever the tactical uniforms change.
True Hondo. I was only counting the Active Duty Soldiers. My (previously unstated) basis for that was that AD Troops have to pay for uniform changes out of their own pocket, while NG (and USAR) Troops get theirs from supply. So, the NG portion is paid from the States to the favorited clothing manufacturers, with a royalty to Murtha’s patent holding friend (in the case of the Multi-cams).
And then the Troops go out to buy the pouches they actually need on their combat gear.
The ARNG is only about 60% of the total of the RC, WOTN. And while I can’t speak about the ARNG, I don’t believe that the USAR gets free issue of uniforms when the Army changes things. I could be wrong about that, but don’t think I am. I sure as hell didn’t when the summer BDUs became mandatory, or when the Greens changed – and I only got issued ACUs during pre-deployment RFI after I’d already bought the requisite 4 sets out of my own pocket elsewhere. (smile)