IVAW’s Jorge Gonsalez weighs in on Afghanistan shootings
In a link sent to us by Patrick, CNN goes straight to Iraq Veterans Against the War when they want to blame the military for those shootings in Afghanistan. They take the same tone as the Washington Post, blaming the leadership at Joint Base Lewis-McChord, because the media likes to see general officers take the fall. But CNN goes to Jorge Gonzalez, apparently, according to his profile at IVAW, one of the few remaining actual Iraq veterans left in the organization, if that tells you anything about his character. But, of course, CNN needed the insight of a five-year specialist to judge the leadership of the Joint Base;
“This was not just a rogue soldier,” said Jorge Gonzalez, executive director of G.I. Voice, a veteran-run nonprofit organization that operates a soldiers’ resource center near the base called Coffee Strong. The base is “a rogue base, with a severe leadership problem,” he said.
“If Fort Lewis was a college campus, it would have been closed down years ago,” Gonzalez said.
In the wake of Sunday’s shootings, he called for a congressional investigation and hearings “into the multiple crises” at the base.
Of course, it’s not the first time we’ve heard of Gonzalez. NSOM wrote about him a few weeks ago doing the same shit.
For those of you who have never served, we senior leadership in the Army get to hear the opinions of Soldiers in the E-4 pay grade like Gonzalez everyday, all day long and we don’t pay attention to them, because most of them think they have valuable opinions, but that’s hardly ever the case. According to Gonzalez’ profile he spent five years in the Army and only managed to get promoted three times. that’s a little on the low side for soldiers. But he’d probably tell you it’s because the man was keeping him down and didn’t recognize his talent.
So, good job, CNN, finding the least credible person in Washington State to support your story. Gonzalez hasn’t been stationed on Lewis-McCord since 2009, so he’s basing his expertise on listening to the more current E-4 Mafia as they bitch and complain about things they don’t understand.
Then to further support their story, CNN uses the case of Benjamin Colton Barnes, the Army-trained survival specialist who was found face down in a creek when he dies from hypothermia (like a true survival specialist whom the Army trains) who was booted from his service at JB Lewis-McChord more than three years ago. Of course, CNN used him as an example of “vets gone nuts” a few weeks ago, too. So it must be JBLM that’s at fault, even though the nut they used in the “vets as nuts” story with Barnes was a Marine.
Category: Iraq Veterans Against the War, Media
MilitaryCorruption dot com ran the story in the last coupe of weeks on the Commander of JBLM’s Hospital was relieved for not permitting his doctors to give a diagnosis of PTSD and/or TBI. Just a correlation or perhaps causation?
Lotta crap centered on JBLM.
Neither DavidO – irrelevant to the point.
How DARE an E-4 have an opinion!! Who do those damn E-4’s think they are?!
Irrelevant to which point?
Nice to see you agree, JAX.
Coffee Strong has become an anti-military, anti-leadership quote farm for the media. There’s always some “I’ve seen some shit, man” screw up over there ready to peddle horror stories in between ISO meetings.
You left out the “5-year” part, Jax.
The e-4 mafia is a very useful tool. It is to be used and fed properly. I remember the day I left the e-4 mafia and I got promoted to SGT then I realized I was the adult in the room. Sometimes when you are a Spc you have a limited view and you don’t see things the same way you do as an NCO and your views have to change. You may have an opinion as a spc but they change when you have to be responsible for a lot of other people.
In the Marine Corps we call L/Cpl’s and below non-rates. They can have all the opinions they want….but they just don’t rate. And strangley enough there is no L/Cpl mafia in the Marine Corps.
I have a TOC full of E4’s with opinions right now and an OPS SGM to tell them to keep their opinions to themselves.
Ugh…Got to start my morning with this f-stick making the rounds on the local radio stations. Not a good start to my Monday pre-coffee commute. Stars & Stripes got into the JBLM pile on as well. There were rumors that there would be a candlelight vigil for the Afghans tonight outside the gate, but I think that got nixed after it was pointed out that might be not be so bright.
re #9
We always called it the Lance Corporal Underground. Slightly different connotation but still the same basic concept.
He wears the “Sham Shield” proud. What a retard…maybe it helps him get laid.
Well, as far as the 5-year part, I don’t know what Jorge’s MOS was, but when I was active duty, the only people I saw get promoted to E-5 were people who already had their bachelor degrees. That’s because my particular MOS required, if I recall correctly, 798 points to get promoted. So in order to get promoted you had to max out everything, including civilian education. That doesn’t make you some kind of E-4 douchebag as you guys seem to imply. Now, if someone is a 6 or 7 year E-4 and is in an MOS that traditionally requires far less promotion points, then yeah, maybe I would start to wonder why they can’t or don’t want to get promoted. And just because someone is an E-5 or E-6 doesn’t mean they’re mature, professional, OR intelligent. I’ve wondered for a long time why the hell it is so damn easy to get promoted in the Reserves or NG. I’ve seen quite a few incompetent and unprofessional NCO’s who were NG or reservists….because it is FAR easier for them to get promoted.
@14
E5 Primary Zone — Board appearance at 34 months TIS and six months TIG as an E-4. Earliest Promotion can occur is at 36 months TIS with at least eight months TIG.
Granted his MOS could influence promotion but 5 years is right on the edge of questionable potential for a SPC. At the bare minimum he was adequate.
He was a tanker and traditionally, combat arms MOS have a lower threshold in the points system. Without going through the last eight years of the Army Times, I’m guessing someone held him back from the promotion board.
If you’re in an MOS with a 798 cutoff you reenlist for a different MOS. Doubt he was on a six year enlistment, so he’s a douche, lazy, or most probably both. Looks like his highest award is GCM. That speaks volumes.
And now he plays the slander the Army game.
ah, good point on the MOS. He’s definitely a slacker or worse.
@#15 Daniel, TIS and TIS aren’t the only important factors in promotion. You have to have the points! And like I said, with my MOS, the only people I saw who made it to E-5 within their original 4 year enlistment were people who had already completed their bachelors and had maxed all of their points.
@#16 Jonn, that clears it up a bit. I was not aware of what MOS he served in….so I cannot speak to why he did not make it to E-5. But perhaps you have a valid point. I don’t know, I didn’t serve with Jorge.
@#17 Radar, that’s brilliant. Let me just move on to another MOS because it’s kinda hard to get promoted. That’s a great message. If I didn’t like my MOS AND the points were high, then I could understand it. But do you really want an NCO who decided to reclass just because it was too hard for them elsewhere? I don’t.
Anon,
Roger understood, I’m combat arms (FA) so most of the time the TIS and TIG were the only factors preventing a high speed Soldier from getting promoted because the points have been so low the past 6 years.
As a Company Commander I used the career timeline to evaluate promotion packets to get a good picture of the Soldier’s potential as an NCO.
I got ya. Not sure why there is such a discrepancy with the points system….it was a big headache for people in my MOS when I was in because for us it was, unfortunately, all about the points 🙁
Other question is the Jax, Jacksonville FL?
I grew up near NAS JAX
Jax, in his IVAW profile (linked above) he says he was a 19K M1 tank crewmember.
The Jax IS Jacksonville, FL. I also grew up near NAS JAX….in Mandarin. Went to Mandarin High School and UNF. I live in Denver now though. Moved here like a year and a half ago.
And thank you for the information, Jonn. I admit I didn’t even click on the link before when I was reading it. Just wondering why everyone was jumping to conclusions about him being a shitbag soldier based on his TIS and rank.
I hold onto the Anonymous in Jax name because I started posting under it when I still lived in Jax and I just want Jonn to see it and recognize who I am!!! 😛
Yeah jax go ahead and dick with the NG you schmuck. You sound like a disgruntled e-4 when you way crap like that.
HAHA Wow Jason, don’t be so angry about it.
I am not a disgruntled E-4, I am just speaking truthfully about my experience with the NG and Reserves. I deployed to Iraq with a Reserve unit and one of the most jacked up units I dealt with in Iraq was a NG unit. That’s not to say that all of the Reserves and NG are bad. I am just saying that the leadership seems to be a little subpar because they make it too easy. I witnessed an E-6 and an E-5 having to be separated from each other in Iraq and moved to different locations because they were basically making out in the DFAC in Iraq….real professional huh? They were a male and a female of course 😉
And, of course, I should add that this is just based on MY personal experience with the NG and Reserves. Like I said, it’s not all bad….it’s just MY experience, which is different from everyone else’s
Jorge is their go to guy because he’s well….a marxist perhaps?
“They were a male and a female of course”. Well, not necessarily of course, Jax. At least not now.
“If Fort Lewis was a college campus, it would have been closed down years ago”. And yet, I’m sure it doesn’t bother Jorge that UC Berkley is still open.
Jax, suppose you’re correct. One can slide and stay in an easy overstrength MOS and get RIF’d, or work hard and take a job the Army needs and get promoted. Of course this idjit had one of those combat arms MOSs and still pretty much failed.
btw, I had that choice. Took a job that the Army needed filled, not the one I’d have preferred. Sometimes referred to as selfless service. Not that you ever heard the phrase, or if you have, never grasped the meaning.
So your experience is very limited is what you are saying?
That’s a lot of ribbons for someone with only 5 years TIS…not to mention wearing that on an ACU coat just screams retard.
And I almost forgot…the FASTEST WAY to make E4? is from E5. Some Nat Guard units really sucked at getting GOOD troops promoted, but looking at this rag bag, I don’t think that would have been his case.
My only Big Army experience outside of TRADOC was OEF VII, and that convinced me that the Nasty Guard was just fine for me. It’s a lot like a family: you get to know people over years and years, and some people are really good to have at your side. And like family, you sometimes have to wait for them to die to go away.
I’m at Ft. Lewis on active duty orders. If there’s a crisis other than idiot pedestrians who can’t be bothered to cross with the traffic lights and soldiers who have too much time to spend in line at the coffee shop, I haven’t noticed it.
Looks like just another slob that can’t be bothered to wear his uniform properly.
Well I was an E-4 and I saw everything a Medic could from FSB to EVAC to Line Dog. I’ve done it all. And I never looked like this kind of shitbag.
I’d give a pass on the 5 year SPC thing, unless he got busted down. I’ve known too many good Soldiers, that weren’t able to get promoted for various reasons or didn’t want the responsibility of being an NCO (and I’d rather have a career SPC at my back then a shake and bake SGT). Besides it took me 6 years to make SGT (made up for lost time getting SFC) so I can’t throw stones.
That being said, he’s clearly a dirty hippie now and looks like he could use a good delousing. I don’t know what the appeal of these groups are to guys. Part of it has to be the ‘I joined to meet women’ thing (and we’ve all done something we regret in pursuit of a woman). But there were plenty of women around Tacoma, Joe doesn’t need to lower their standards and hang with the unwashed hippies to get girls there.
As far as the JBLM being in the news alot. I think it’s a combination of a large base, the dirty hippie influence on the weak minded, and the fact that some of the BDEs there had alot of problems when they were stood up or reorganized. I was there in 06-07 and remember seeing platoons led by SGTs in the new units. The lack of adult leadership caused alot of problems that we are still seeing ripple out.
Or it could just be a weird coincidence. Anyone remember how often FT Bragg was in the news back in the 90’s for some pretty bad stuff?
@32&33, what do these two posts have to do with anything? Jax is speaking from her OWN experience and offering her opinion. How do you challenge that?
Who can sit in judgement of the choices another person makes? In the Marine Corps I served in we were always reminded that every job was important. Speaking of choices, why did you join the Army when the Marine Corps recruiter’s door was the next one over?
My experience working with reservists was common to hers. During the summers we had tons of reservists come through Camp Pendleton for their annual training, some were very professional, others…not so much. MY experience was very broad. Because there is only one Amtrac Bn in the 1 MarDiv each company rotated as the support co. regularly.
David (34): Agree with you about ribbons on the ACU coat looking stupid. But a lot for 5 years? Not if he really deployed; 6 to 8 would be what you’d expect to see.
Leftmost top 2 appear to be the GCM and NDSM. I think there’s a 3rd on the top row; since this guy reportedly deployed to Iraq, it’s probably the ICM. The leftmost bottom 2 look to be the GWOTSM and ASR. He’d also qualify for the OSR as well if he spent 10+ mo in Iraq. So if there’s a 3rd on the bottom row, that’s probably it.
Other than the GCM, I don’t see any personal decorations though – not even an AAM. After 5 years, IMO that’s kinda telling. You’d expect a good troop to have some kind of personal decoration after 5 years; a really sharp guy or gal could have 2 (rare, but not unknown). Since this guy doesn’t have any personal decorations, either the “low speed/high drag” or “E4 to E5 and back to E4” theories appear plausible to me.
Just to clear something up. NG and reserve promotions can be slower than anything. Depending on your MOS there may be a limited amount of slots in the state and what there is may be across the state and not worth the drive. I was a 19D with the GA and FL NG’s. In both cases, there was only 1 cav troop in the state. There were a few (very few) spots in other units around the state but for the most part, you had to consider reclassing or waiting till someone retired or got out to open up a slot. This was late 90’s early 00’s but I don’t imagine it’s changed too much.
I don’t see anything that indicates Jorge was USAR or NG. Based on his profile it sure seems that he was an RA tanker stationed at JBLM.
@32 and 33, who are you to judge that I have had no experience? I, like Matthis, was called up off of IRR. I, unline Matthis, deployed without complaint. Well, perhaps not entirely free of complaint, but I think you get my point. A few choice words escaped my mouth when the letter came. I was in an MOS that, for active duty, required 798 points to get promoted to E-5, but didn’t get promoted during my AD time because I didn’t have the points, mostly because I didn’t have my Bachelor’s degree yet (I needed the civilian education points). But while in Iraq, I worked Combat Stress Control, which I loved, so I would not want to reclass to something else just so I could get promoted easier. And, being a female, infantry and FA and all that good stuff is off limits to me anyways. Nut just because I was a SPC, I certainly didn’t feel treated like it. I even had to take over as the acting NCOIC for our clinic whenever my SSG went on R & R or would travel to different sites. I feel I am proof that a SPC can have an opinion and still be professional and what not. But I’m sure you guys might feel differently. So before you judge, just ask….I’m really not as bad as you seem to think I am. And yes, Radar, it does appear Jorge was an AD tanker. Jonn cleared that up.
@ Cav Scout, yeah I have heard that about the NG. Perhaps it does depend upon the individual state and what not.
I know the Reserve unit I deployed with just gave away promotions during the first deployment. They gave it to people who didn’t even want it and they regretted it. So the next deployment they vowed to make people actually earn it. And then when I was AD at Walter Reed, they brought in a Reserve SSG to be our NCOIC and god, he was a moron. I guess, in his defense, he doesn’t perform his MOS on a daily basis like AD soldiers do so maybe that’s why he didn’t seem to know what the hell he was doing.
So, in summary, CavScout, I take back most of what I said about the NG. But I stand by what I said about the Reserves!! 🙂
My experience is similar to CavScout’s. Promotion and upward mobility in the National Guard is generally much slower than in the RA. Prior to the current deployment tempo the units tended to have pretty stable, and stagnant, numbers.
I personally had been in the same armory, and in the same unit, for 17 yrs when I retired. Frequently better than half our personnel had over ten years in the same unit, and at times the average age was over 30. That additional maturity is probably what led to our success in out performing most of the RA units we were tasked to work with. It’s also ultimately how we managed to stay on the books as a ‘theater asset’ on loan to the Multi National Division in Central Iraq, and others, outside the immediate umbrella of the 3rd ID in 2003, instead of being lumped in as a ‘Corps asset’ with many of our contemporaries as the theater structure started to stabilize.
It’s neither here nor there I suppose, but we also had two married couples in the unit. They always managed to demonstrate the utmost in professionalism on or off duty, and even while we were deployed.
((sigh)) I miss it. 🙁
As far as the married couples, that’s exactly how it should be!
At least GO1 was revised in 2007 or 2008 to reflect some degre of sanity w/respect to married couples in-theater – conditions permitting, of course.
The guy’s a 19K, so a tanker, which is notoriously difficult as combat MOSs go for promotions. SSGs usually run a single SGT and two junior enlisted, unlike infantry or cav scouts. So yeah, it’s pretty common to come across SPCs with 5 year TIS. You have to be very high speed, high moto, and suck you know what to make E-5 in less than 4, much less in an infantry company where promotions are run by grunts rather than tankers (B Co in particular since it was run by ol’ 1SG Hernandez at the time, who was Ranger-fied to the max and had a marked disregard for non-infantry). To add to that, my MGS platoon didn’t have the major need for tanker NCOs in large part because the Mortars got merged in with MGS, to form 4th Platoon. So while MGS started off with a single E-5 and E-6, 4th Plt had 3 SSGs, 2 SGTs, and a E-4 promotable with more TIS than any other SPC in 4th. To round it out further, the CO and 1SG thought it easier just to loan other NCOs to 4th, usually the guys that were considered ‘odds and ends’ and didn’t have a place in the line grunt platoons. Second, I knew Gonzo personally. I was in his MGS platoon. Myself, him, and several others arrived at B Co. 5/20 at the same time, trained together, deployed together, and returned together (with a few unfortunate exceptons). For a clue, ALL of the junior enlisted in my MGS platoon got promoted to SPC at the same time (AUG2006), and we all enlisted in mid 2004. Guy was a good gunner, a good VC, and I trusted him with my life. After all the shit that happened in Iraq he stayed arguably the sanest of us. So no, he wasn’t a shitbag by any stretch. Was he Soldier of the Month material? No, but he was quite competent where it mattered and that’s all that matters. IIRC, he was one of the few of us in line to get pushed towards E-5. He… Read more »
It’s called guilt by association. By aligning himself with an organization as morally bankrupt as IVAW he has done himself and his credibility a huge disservice.
Leaving his record as a soldier entirely out of the discussion, his character is still suspect, rendering the validity of his opinions and views suspect as well.
There, is that better RST?
RST: if he was a good troop, why didn’t his chain-of-command put him in for any type of ETS award? Seems to me I remember that as being fairly standard for good troops leaving a unit, even for those ETSing.