NATO orders potty training for Marines
Our buddy, Jeff Schogol, formerly of the Stars & Stripes and currently of the Air Force Times sends us a link from the Marine Corps Times which reports that the three-star commander of all NATO has ordered potty training for the Marines;
[Army Lt. Gen. Curtis Scaparrotti] said in his letter that all commanders should ensure their subordinates understand what the law of armed conflict includes, “especially regarding the appropriate treatment of the dead.” He added that “defiling, desecrating, mocking, photographing or filming for personal use” bodies of dead insurgents is a “grave breach” of that law, and should be reported by those who see it.
“Such actions bring dishonor to those who commit them, and violate the core values of all military services, regardless of service or nation,” the general said. “Such actions break our faith with the Afghan people, who trust us to uphold standards of law and decency, and to treat the living and the dead with dignity and respect.”
Oh, ok, so the general didn’t order potty training, it’s just that I couldn’t resist. Sorry. Call me names.
So, like I said on the radio, this has all been blown out of proportion by the media hungry for writing about images of pee-pees and wee-wees of Marines. So, the investigation is being handled by Lt. Gen. Thomas Waldhauser, commander of Marine Corps Forces Central Command, according to Stars & Stripes, the Defense Secretary has condemned the video, the NATO commander has ordered that the Law of Land Warfare training is reinforced among the troops still in theater. So can we all move along and let the wheels of military justice turn?
I noticed in the reportage, because I had to watch VTWoody on CBS this morning, that the two day old story still led CBS’ news, but they’d changed the story to “the video appears to show…” instead of “the video shows”.
Like I said initially, it might be that we’re being pranked. We won’t know until Jethro Gibbs and Ziva at NCIS finish their sweat box questioning with Abby in the lab testing the urine while “Probie” McGee works his computer magic.
Category: Military issues
Afghani’s barely have electricity, let alone a way to see this video.
I think I agree with Allen West.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/allen-west-marines-incident-shut-your-mouth-war-hell_616699.html
I read that, Susan, but I’m waiting for dicksmith’s inevitable criticism to write about it.
For once, I disagree with Susan, and COL West. I just don’t think comparing what our troops do compared to our enemies is ever appropriate. There is a right, and a wrong, and I don’t ever believe in relativism with regards to things like this. There’s only one guy in my unit that I refused to defend when he got in trouble in A-Stan, and it was for rubbing a PUCs Koran on his testicles. Putting aside the obvious ramifications, that these actions will get our guys killed, I just don’t think we should ever blur the line. Now, if they had just killed these dudes, and lost a soldier and someone had kicked the body or something, that might be mitigating. But this wasn’t a heat of the moment thing. This was thought out, and done with malice aforethought as it were.
Presumably since I have been shot at by the Taliban I can speak my mind (per the West rule.) I understand that my view is the minority, and I recognize that everyone from Blackfive to Ace etc all disagree with me. So, I expect to take shit here too. But, the NCO creed actually means something to me, honor means something to me, professional demeanor means something to me. And I just can not reconcile these heinous acts by noting that the enemy engages in far more horrific* shit.
A pop warner league football QB might throw for 50 yards and that would be impressive, but for Tom Brady it is not. I just refuse to ever accept that anything less than consummate professionalism is acceptable for our military personnel.
Anyway, flame away, but as much as I have tried to see the other side on this one, I just can’t.
*fixed an error in my comment.
I just don’t understand the difference in reaction between this story and the one of the “Kill Team.” In one case, Marines pissed on dead Taliban fighters. In the other, soldiers deliberately committed murder, at least once targeting an innocent child. Yet for some reason the former has received more attention.
It is like they’re saying “kill me, but don’t piss on me.”
Well, come to think of it, never mind. I understand now. We all should have learned where rape and murder fall on the scale of insults with the R. Kelly incident years ago. These Marines better learn how to sing R&B real quick.
West is dead wrong. We don’t gauge our professionalism by the actions of the enemy. We gauge it by our standards, principles and actions.
Many are bitching and moaning about ‘outcry’ over the atrocities committed by terrorists. That’s well and good, but we don’t have control over their actions….we do have control over the actions committed by our forces, and in our name. If we abrogate that, we’re doing the enemies work for them.
I see exactly what you are saying there TSO, and agree with you, except that I also agree with Col West. When I read that piece, perhaps it was wishful thinking on my part, but his words spoke more to me about the hypocrisy of the media than anything else. It was a criticism of the media failure, their inability to rationally address the disperity of various incidents et al, that I saw.
I certainly don’t see any justification for breaking the rules in this manner either.
Something wholly unneeded. There is no evidence this is wide spread, punish the parties involved and that’s it.
What’s that corporate line about being unwilling to hold those who commit a wrongful act responsible, so you lecture everyone for something they didn’t do.
#4 TSO I tend to agree with you but I think your take on it getting our guys’ killed is a weak argument.
It impedes our ability to build a relationship of trust with the locals. Most of the them only hear stories about the misconduct of our forces propagated by the our enemies and their sympathizers. This just feeds into that false story line.
OWB, you certainly have a point there I can’t dispute, the reaction among the media is an abrogation of their responsibility.
I honestly hate being confrontational, so this one is a tough issue for me, but I am happy to see some people agree with me on this one.
COL West does have a good point on punishment though. I would honestly love to talk to these guys and get their thoughts on why they thought filming this was a good idea. Doing something asinine like this could very well have had surrounding circumstances that might mitigate, if not eliminate, their culpability in my mind. But, filming it, and WORSE, posting it, removed that escape valve for me. I just don’t understand the thinking.
Cedo- even when the story is 100% fake, like the Koran flushing, it has actual concrete repercussions. In this case, I think this video absolutely fires up the locals. I’m not one who ascribes to the “all Muslims are savages” argument, and I think that also puts me in the minority at times. I think there are people who just want to go about their lives believing in the deity of their choice. I think for that segment that this would push them in a direction they wouldn’t go to generally.
I’ve already made my thoughts known on this in the original thread. Nothing more to add.
#6 Nicely articulated. I concur.
I have a lot of respect for Colonel West and yes he is correct that there is a double standard of outrage that the media applies in regards to our enemies actions. However there conduct is not a template for our own.
#10 TSO your point skews more with my argument then yours. It hurts our ability to persuade-that is unequivical.
Saying that it gets our guys killed is hard to quantify and it is a poor reason to justify decisions. If we don’t want to get our guys killed we could have them just never leave the wire or go to war for that matter.
Your point maybe correct in the abstract but again the explaination is incorrect on the tactical or operational plan.
I guess I should have been clearer. I think it was (a)a very stupid thing to do; (b) even stupider to photograph/tape it; and (c) absolutely assinine to post it anywhere. These guys have to be punished because what they did was both stupid and wrong.
That said, I also think it is being seriously over-hyped by the media, and that those of us who haven’t been there, should let those of you who have set the punishment. I think that is the point Col. West was making.
@6: I’m still looking for the equalizer for outrage between gutting and beheading and peeing………Nope, haven’t found it, yet.
The sad thing about this is that it is all good and well to say that we should be held to a higher standard. The media, the pundits, polictical hacks, activist organiztions and even the pentagon, they can all say the buzz word..higher standard. I am not sure if the man in the field gives a crap about the higher standards when engaged in a firefight, he wants to get his self and his team mates home safely. even those that have served over there and are out now (and I am damn proud of you) may have not thought much about ‘higher standard’ when sending rounds down range. War is hell, just think about the pacific theatre of WW2. I maybe totally wrong here. But you will be hard pressed to convince me that this is as bad as they are making it out to be. Tell ya what ask the media or even Hillary which video she would rather see….the wee wee one or one of the numerous beheading ones.
My thoughts and prayers go out to all that are serving over there in harms way. If you ask me this something that should be handled at the company level.
RLTW
@14 – I never meant to imply that the media was anything but inept and lazy…but do you not think it also to be part of our human nature to be rightly upset at matters concerning our own accountability and standards….more so than stories that merely qualify our regards and assessments [that of terrorists]?
It’s no stretch that the media leads with whatever is controversial at the moment. That they are covering this comes as no shock to me, but I don’t expect it will last long.
@15 – The problem is, we’re not talking about actions during a firefight, when almost anything can be rightly excused.
True…..but I think that one would be hard pressed to think that the switch is turned off that easily.
Sooner or later I hope more facts will make their way to us all.
@18 – Possibly for some…I suppose. I’ve been in my share of the same situations as those Marines….and haven’t had the urge to piss on any bodies.
Out of curiosity, not just to be argumentative……what facts do you expect to come out? It’s fairly obvious that they pissed on corpses.
That they did! Reckon yer right now that ya think about it.
Out of curiosity, not just to be argumentative…..omg he did not just type that did he….ZIKES….Well since you have had a few instances of being in the same situation they were in….then please let me know what the situation was the these Marines found themselves in. OMG I think I am about to be smacked downed!
TSO:
Agree that this was wrong and we should hold ourselves to a higher standard. If these Marines are found guilty, they should receive NJP, but if overall good troops should not be discharged or locked up.
It does piss me off that some are talking as if this is as bad or worse than what the Taliban and Al Qaeda does. Overall, the military has behaved much better compared to
past conflicts. Would also appreciate if the MSM would report the bad from both sides while also showing we punish those that break the rules while the other side condones and praises such actions.
So when does the MSM start blaming this on Obama and his administration?
@22 – Sorry…didn’t realize you were a troll. Carry on.
I apologize for not putting @20 etc… My mistake…..Holy carp he is a cherry!
@24 I hope I have not come across that way. And am sorry if I did something wrong.
@23: We do hold ourselves to a higher standard by not gutting and beheading our enemies. We hold ourselves to a higher standard by not mutilating our enemies and then impaling the remains on posts over a bridge. We hold ourselves to a higher standard by bending over backwards to not offend anyone. Basically, we cut our own balls off in order to show the world, and especially our enemies, that we conduct ourselves to such a high standard that something as trivial as pissing on a dead enemy is considered a capital offense. We’re more interested in our image than winning the fucking war.
Ok, I’m off my soapbox, now, and I won’t comment on this anymore, because I get pissed off just thinking of the sissies we have become and if we are going to continue down that path we might as well just leave every war zone we are in and come home now. We don’t have what it takes to wage war, but we could probably get a shot at starting a reality tv show to centered around the pentagon calling their top dog image consultant agency to come in and make it all better every time a bad guy starts getting outraged about something that we’ve done to upset them. I don’t know; what do ya think about maybe doing pay-offs to a couple of mullahs to make this go away? Build them a Baskin-Robbins? Draw and quarter the Marines involved? I mean, heaven forbid that we upset our enemies.
@27 Well Said!
RLTW
Guess it all depends upon one’s perspective. Either dead or alive, I would much rather be pissed upon than disembowelled.
So, yeah, that looks like a MUCH higher standard from here already.
Are we perfect? Well, no. And I have no doubt whatever that the US Marine Corps will take appropriate corrective action with these Marines, assuming this is found to be legit. Unless all this attention causes them to punish these guys inappropriately a la the Hidatha response.
Got to agree with Old Trooper.
“We’re more interested in our image than winning the fucking war.”
That’s reason number one the wars have lasted this long.
Old Trooper:
I may not have made my point as well as I should have. Which is that I’m also pissed that every infraction by the troops no matter how minor is treated like another My Lai or Abu Graib. Hell, read ” With the Old Breed, at Peleliu and Okinawa” and see that sometimes bad judgement is used even by good people.
Shite, I should turn myself in for being in violation since I’v got a copy of a photo a friend took of a dead Iraqi we found in a bunker during Desert Storm after the cease-fire.
With the Sec of State getting involved, “Unless all this attention causes them to punish these guys inappropriately a la the Hidatha response”, that’s probably already in the works.
@27 Well said indeed!
I understand what you’re saying, YatYas. The bottom line is we are proving that we aren’t serious about warfighting or victory. When something this trivial rises to the level of public responses by the SecDef, SecState, Commandant of the Marine Corps, and putting a 3-star in charge of the investigation; we have become a bunch of pussies. I heard less from the administration and top brass when the kill squad was caught. Now THEY were worthy of such condemnation and you’ll notice that it was handled professionally and quickly.
It’s interesting to see people who likely believe that some sort of victory is possible in Afghanistan, suddenly not give a shit about how desecrating Muslim bodies is going to play with our local ‘allies’ and more importantly, our terps.
Fuck it….why stop at pissing….whatever makes you feel good after a firefight should be fair game, right?
Oh come on CI, this is definitely not something that rises to the level of condemnation that it has. Were they stupid? Yep. Do they deserve some company level punishment? Yep. Do they deserve the kind of panty wetting that is going on? Nope. Your getting hyperbolic and a little dramatic with your all or nothing scenario. I expected better from you. Since we are more worried about offending anyone (you included, obviously), then it’s time to come home; right now. We have no stomach for a fight. It’s interesting to see people who that don’t want victory and are more concerned with image over doing what it takes to vanquish our enemies.
OT – I give a damn about image for image’s sake, nor do I care about offending anyone. But if you want to make even a dent against Islamic terrorism, it’s smart to not pull dumbass stunts that go to the core of Islam. Desecration of a body is a big deal amongst Muslims.
This event doesn’t matter to terrorists, or Taliban…it’s not going to make them want to kill us any more…but it matters to those we’re trying to convince that we’re ‘here to help’.
I fully concur that Company grade punishment is all that is warranted, but we shoot our collective strategy in the ass by pretending it’s no big deal…boys being boys and all.
question – If one of your incendiary rounds sets the enemy’s body to smoldering, should you use your camelbak to extinguish the potential conflagration, pee on the embers, or just let him go up in flames and head to his 72 virgins with a shriveled charcoal stick in his robes?
Not trying to set up a possible defense or anything. Just askin’. 🙂
This right here, “We won’t know until Jethro Gibbs and Ziva at NCIS finish their sweat box questioning with Abby in the lab testing the urine while “Probie” McGee works his computer magic.” has sig line possibilities. Just saying. 😉
Its not just a matter of holding ourselves to a higher standard which we must, its a matter of discipline, what else could these Marine have been doing while they were getting their jollies by desecrating the dead, maybe pulling security, maybe searching the dead for intel, maybe moving on, maybe avoiding the having an IED go off on the objective and killing a fellow service member. Further it’s actually really really simple, Our image IS the war, public perception is one of, if not the single most important aspect of counter insurgency. Old Trooper, where do you think the intel for all our Capture/Kill raids come from? it comes from Afghanis who are willing to help us. So in that regard our image directly impacts out ability to do what you seem us to do more of, just kill them all, never mind thats not the mission and never was (unless you want us to be in Afghanistan the next 100 years). Lastly, a comment on the punishment, initially i thought LTC West was right about NJP but then when i thought about it, something occurred to me, this is one of the few cases we have had of a cut and dry war crime. I am just a simple artilleryman but from every class on international law i have taken, military and civilian, and from my own reading of the Geneva conventions, it is clear that what they did qualifies as a war crime under the Law of Land Warfare. It’s that simple and for that reason they deserve judicial punishment. Old Trooper these Laws are mainly from 1949 and before, not really the PC time yet. As much as i can sympathize with the anger at someone shooting at you or worse losing a buddy, or worse someone for whom you are responsible. (Let me assure you nothing in the world is harder then writing a letter to the mother of a soldier you were responsible for, telling her that her only son is not coming home) We can not allow this justifiable anger to blind us… Read more »
Oh and their COC should fry as well, What HELL was their PL, Company CO, and Staff NCOs doing, that let them think standing around on an objective was OK? And what the HELL kind of command climate was their in that unit that let them think it was ok to desecrate bodies. Plus one has to ask where was the PL during this incident, obviously not with his Marines, and even if he had a good reason to not be there (which as a Former PL i highly doubt) he is 100% responsible, the line I am responsible for all that my unit accomplishes and fails to accomplish. ITs not harsh, it the price one pays for the privilege and honor of being a Officer.
Working on my own thing on this topic, but I also noticed how the ‘reporting’ *cough cough* on the msm in Bratville changed from: first day, it was the top story (!) all day with stuff like “disickening …disgusting…blah blah blah. Second day? Maybe third story in with now “appears to be…” Hmmmmm…
And yes…typos R still Us.;)
I will let Shakespeare do the speaking for me on this whole issue:
In peace there’s nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility:
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour’d rage;
Then lend the eye a terrible aspect
Let the Devil Dogs mark their territory. Just don’t film it.
[…] One of the more entertaining milblogs notes that "the three-star commander of all NATO has ordered potty training for the Marines". Heh. And Rep. Allen West, a combat vet, says "All these over-emotional pundits and armchair […]
@37: I see your point and agree that they’re boneheads. Also, I do understand that the muslims get themselves twisted over the slightest of infractions, I’ve seen it happen, however, the amount and level of panty wetting we’re doing, ourselves, is making it a bigger deal than what it probably would be if we had kept it further down the chain. Take for instance the kill squad; they did far worse, actual atrocities and war crimes, and there was none of this level of outrage from the administration and the media, yet we had a massive coronary when some stoopid sonavabitch in Florida was going to burn a Koran. No one makes that kind of a fuss when someone desecrates a bible and in fact they can get federal grant money and call it “art”. Why the difference? Because like a spoiled child, no one has told the muslim bad actors “no” before. Everyone bends over to not offend them and like a spoiled child, they know exactly how to act to get their way. I would prefer that our enemies fear us. They don’t. They know that all they have to do is bitch a little and we’ll start bowing and scraping. We don’t make a distinction between the bad actor muslims and the muslims that just want to be left alone. It doesn’t help that they consider any war against anyone muslim to be about the religion of the bad guys and not their actual deeds. So; they foment the thought that we are at war with islam, not a bunch of nutbars that refuse to move their thinking out of the 7th century. During WWII we did what we needed to win, to included wholesale bombing of cities and towns. The destruction of churches, synagogues, temples, etc. in order to get the bad guys. We didn’t worry about image or hurt feelings until afterwards. We weren’t about winning hearts and minds of the civilian population in Japan and Germany; were we? As I recall, we firebombed Tokyo without so much as Hallmark card of apology afterward. Dresden… Read more »
@OT – “In retrospect; WWII was the last time we had unconditional victory……go figure.”
True, but almost impossible to gain the same when fighting a nebulous ideology and non-state actors.
The only other point I find to quibble over is the media coverage. I’m not a voracious consumer of TV news, but I hit the big three cable channels in the evening, and keep up on what the MSM is putting out during the day.
I remember plenty of coverage over the ‘kill squad’, and don’t really see how the coverage of this incident has eclipsed that event.
The bottom line though, is that the Marines in question are culpable, not the media. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Pat Bagley is our Local Legend, a political cartoonist for one of the two locally printed bird cage liners. But occasionally, he does hit one on the bullseye. I can’t reproduce it here (copyright laws, etc), but here’s the link:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/53290129-82/bagley-cartoon-facebook-lake.html.csp
The problem is the prizes they are going to win are from the top shelf when they only qualify for the bottom shelf. I’m not talking about media coverage, I’m talking about the public responses from the top brass and the administration, where the overreaction is gonna make these guys pay above their pay grade. I have never said they weren’t culpable, I have been pointing out overreaction of those up stairs. All that needed to be said by anyone above was “yes, we saw the video and those troops will be dealt with accordingly” and just leave it at that. The ideology you speak of was around during WWII and we were engaged in many areas that were dominated by that ideology and I’m pretty sure a few mosques were leveled back then in our pursuit of the enemy. As for Japan; their ideology was just as fanatical as modern day fanatical islam, if not more so. The problem is our own ideology. Image is everything to us these days. That’s one of the reasons I was against us stepping foot in Iraq and had my misgivings about how long we have been in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, my suspicions are being proven correct. Our will to win is gone (yes, there is a definition of victory that I have covered many times in the last 10 years), so it is pointless to continue to put fine young men and women in harms way. Roll it up and bring them home and never start anything we aren’t willing to finish and with our limp-wristed mindset, that day will never come again. Maybe I’m too old school, but I see shades of Vietnam all over again and the bitter taste that was left in the mouths of many of our nations finest. We didn’t allow them to do what we sent them there to do. It wasn’t the troops fault, but our government and to some extent, our citizens. When the doctrine goes from victory to “winning hearts and minds” first, we have already lost. Those that say that we can’t apply… Read more »
@47&46 Trying to win hearts & minds gets us in trouble everytime. Once we start trying to do that we seem to piss away all that we have acheived up to that point. The Afgans only know one thing, that is they are, what, 5-0 against foriegn invaders. In more cases than not I would think the same fellow we try to help in the daytime is planting an IED come night fall. ‘Bombs Away LeMay’ had the right idea about
winning hearts and minds and it worked. I truly believe they think we are weak and uncommited to this war and that they will win by a thousand cuts, hell they already know we have decided to leave. I agree, they could care less about what happened except for the fact that though they may get their ass’s handed to them on the battle field we allow them to make it all back up in the battle of public opinion. They will trade Afgans for headlines everyday of the week. And this should never have been a headline.
RLTW