Army and Marines clash over MARPAT
The Army Times reports that the Army wants to change their duty uniforms again, so they’re looking at different patterns, three of them, including the Marines’ MARPAT design. So suddenly, the Marines, who by the way, borrowed the Army’s BDUs a few decades back are getting territorial about it with their Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps Carlton Kent pissing everywhere to mark his “proprietary” design;
The Corps owns the rights to MARPAT and wants to retain it for its own use, Kent said late last year. Marine officials said they have no beef with anyone researching and testing MARPAT, but they want Marines distinguished from other service members on the battlefield.
“The main concern for the Marine Corps when it comes to other services testing our patterns is that they don’t exactly mimic them,” said Kent, who is scheduled to retire June 9. “The MARPAT design is proprietary, and it’s important those designs are reserved for Marines. We just need to make sure each of our designs is unique to each service.”
That’s just petty. The best thing about being out of the Army, is that I get to tell sergeant majors (it’s not “sergeants major” by the way – some uber-pseudo-intellectual dink at the Sergeant Major Academy made that shit up) what I really think of them. SGM Kent; the DoD is cutting your troops medical care while they’re on active duty and they’re going to screw you out of yours when you retire next month…don’t you think it’s important for you to pick your battles?
Arguing over fashion decisions doesn’t serve your Marines well. If you were really that concerned about the uniforms, you would have spoke up during the BDU era about Marines rolling up their sleeves backwards so they all had white arm bands on both arms.
To quote COB6 who sent us the link; ” So aside from a couple of sniper rifles and useless landing craft, you can turn in every piece of equipment in the Marine Corps that was designed, tested and fielded by the US Army! Thank you for your service douche-bag, now retire.”
Operator Dan adds: Funny, I never saw Sgt Major Kent speak out about Iraqi soldiers and police officers wearing MARPAT:
In fact according to the Marine Corps Times:
Marine officials don’t seem overly concerned about the situation. The MarPat design is patented by the Corps and has not been licensed for use by anyone except Marines, said Capt. Geraldine Carey, a spokeswoman for Marine Corps Systems Command.
I would be more concerned about shady IPs wearing MARPAT than soldiers. But then again, this is the same Sgt Major who spent much of the last year spending a great deal of time fretting over a silly Facebook group started by former Marines called F’N Boot.
Category: Military issues
Some Marines don’t have the common sense of a board fence. It’s just a damned shame their seargeant major is one of them.
Idiot.
So slap your EG&A on it, consider yourself “distingiushed,” and move out…
I’m sorry, but the Marines are being ridiculous here… That pattern doesn’t belong to the USMC. It belongs to the taxpayers. If it’s the best camo pattern/fabric out there, shouldn’t we let all our military use it? How much $$ could DoD save by having all the services use the same uniform? I think a pissing contest about this is stupid when there are much more important issues facing the military…
SgtMajor Kent it’s time to retire. We are all on the same side. The only place the Army patterns work is on the couch. Pick some battles that you can win.
I think a deal might be reached to permit the army to use the Marines’ combat utility uniform, so long as the army makes a few changes. Namely, no more wearing your combat utilities to Wal-Mart.
Although I think the whining is juvenile, the Army needs to quit being a bubbleheaded fashion diva and pick a fricken pattern already! BDU, ACU, Multi-Cam……pick one!
If you look closely at the MARPAT uniform, you’ll see little EG&As in the pattern, specifically to prevent other organizations from using it. The same goes for their boots. I’m sure that Navy money was spent in RTD&E, and I’m sure that the joint side or DA will be more than willing to reimburse the cost to the Navy so that more money isn’t wasted on yet another cammo pattern when. We all went to BDUs specifically for the cost efficiencies of one cammo uniform in the system, and now we are back to 6 that I count (2 USMC, 1 Navy, 1 USAF, and 1 USA). If it saves the military a few hundred thousand on the equipping side, we might be able to move it to the pay and allowances that are going to take a hit. But, it is much more important for Marines to be “distinguished from other services on the battlefield.” I have no idea why.
I’m on the Army’s side on this one. Remove the little tiny USMC emblems from within the pattern and there’s nothing terribly special about it.
As for the comments denigrating the Corps in general, well that’s a fight for another day.
Ohn by the way, its SgtMaj Kent, not SGM. He’s a Marine, remember?
Break out the wet-ones….
Why is it so hard for the US Army to come up with their own camo pattern?
Multi-cam is badass and would look great Tan/Brown so would the current ACU’s.
This is a Urinary Volume Contest between generals and has NOTHING to do with saving lives. MARPAT is not saving lives overseas b/c its superior.
If the Marine Corps and the DOD actually thought that this wouldn’t be a question.
Stop crying bitches, get your own shit!
I took from very reliable Canadian sources, when I was tasked to support elements of the RCR, that our Marines took the concept from Canadian Forces.
I see Navy Corpsmen wearing MARPAT, but otherwise wearing the Army’s execrable Universal Combat Pattern. I see sailors wearing digipat, and USAF wearing tiger striped digipat.
And now we’ve been told to expect cuts to retirement pay and benefits. How many dollars would be saved going to one, single, digital camoflauge pattern? Or is being American too hard these days?
This be a tempest in a tea cup.
Two words: black berets. Anyone remember the uproar over that decision?
I’ve always liked marpat, but how different is it from Cadpat? Personally, I think the army should go with multicam.
I know it seems petty but distinguishing Marines is important to the culture and how it works. The Marine Corps is not the Army, its two different organizations who operate in two different ways. If the Army hadn’t fucked up their new uniform acquisition in the first place this wouldn’t even be an issue.
This isn’t a money thing, its a PR thing. The MARPATs look awesome and the Army cammies look like dry cleaning bags. I know, I’ve worn both as an active Marine and a Guardsman. It’ll cost just as much to tear a couple million Multi-Cams from the factory as MARPAT. Swallow your pride, buy the Multi-Cams and move on already. You can’t have our shit.
As NotSoOldMarine touches upon, it’s probably that sense Marines have of being special and a cut above the other services. I don’t mean this in a disrespectful way, but no one can deny that the Marines do have a special pride in their institution compared to other branches of the military. It’s reflected in their commercials, their dress uniform, just that ‘mystique’ and esprit de corps of the Marines in general.
@ Tman –
That Esprit de Corps you speak of is foreign language to most. It’s also what leads to statements like this;
“”There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.””
Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army
We see what’s going on here and who’s whining about what.
In the end if the DOD forces the Corps hand on this, the Marines will create another NEW Pattern exclusive to its branch.
Yea we’re all on the same team, but were not all holding the same billet.
The only logical reason for the Marines to share their pattern is ‘IF’ it would save lives. Since we know that MARPAT is NOT saving lives there’s no need to press the issue.
I find the Army’s actions in this matter pathetically laughable.
Tell Operator Dan that that uniform the Iraqi is wearing aint Marpat, and the cut of the uniform is not the same as the Marpat uniform either. Not even close.
And tell Miss Ladybug she is 100 percent incorrect. The pattern both desert and green verdant are PATENTED to the USMC. They belong to us.
“The only logical reason for the Marines to share their pattern is ‘IF’ it would save lives. Since we know that MARPAT is NOT saving lives there’s no need to press the issue.”
Or if the bulk contract for more than one service is a cost savings.
The Marines pride themselves on not being the Army. Instituionally we are still chaffing at being forced by Pershing to wear Army uniforms in WWI. So sorry Army if we are not thrilled with you emulating us in this matter. As was pointed out above you guys fucked it up once and are now regretting your decission. You should have gone with multi cam but you were to cheap to pay for the supirior product and now you want to use a product that is flat out owned by the Marine Corps. I closing I would sugesst that the Army does a quick historical search and see just how many of these little turf wars the Marine Corps has lost in the last century. The odds are pretty good that we will win this one as well.
Steve, if you look at the blown up picture above the Iraqi flag on his sleeve, you can very clearly see “USMC” in little letters near the shoulder seam.
To be perfectly honest, I don’t want to wear your stuff. It’s not about saving lives, it’s about saving dollars. Get rid of all the service’s PMOs for combat uniforms and make a JPO for combat uniforms. Then move the RDT&E and procurement dollars from each service’s uniform PMOs partially to fund the uniform JPO and send the rest to pay and allowances. The second part of the answer is that every service stops wearing a “combat” or “utility” uniform in non-battle or utility settings. Then, no one will really care what cool pattern everyone is wearing in the office, and most of the discussion will end.
The Army is pathetic, the Marine Corps came up with a new set of cammies, so the Army came up with a new set not wanting to be left out. And then they fumbled it up, like half the time with anything they try to come up with (besides some weapons). Come on really?! “3 shades of gray” to be universal for any type of field?! Guess they dont plan on deploying cause unless your attacking a color blind enemy, nature does have colors! Very little in nature is there gray! The Army has vastly more money than the Marine Corps and still they whine, they’re like rich kids who see the middle class kids with a toy they dont have, and complain!
And to fix this article’s INCORRECT history, the BDU’s were created and used for all and not by the Army. By the way the Army GAVE UP the BDU’s after the Vietnam War and reverted back to the solid olive drab while the Marine Corps continued its use AND THEN the other branches standardized them for their services in the ’80s.
“Tell Operator Dan that that uniform the Iraqi is wearing aint Marpat, and the cut of the uniform is not the same as the Marpat uniform either. Not even close.”
The pattern is the same and yes the uniform has been modified but in country I saw plenty of Iraqis wearing MARPAT, some probably given to them by Marine units. Not to mention Navy SEALs, Navy EOD, Seabees, and DoD Contractors were given MARPAT uniforms by the Marines when they were attached.
“The Marines pride themselves on not being the Army. Instituionally we are still chaffing at being forced by Pershing to wear Army uniforms in WWI.”
It’s not like they’re trying to steal your Dress Blues.
I’m amazed that in a combat zone people on the same team don’t, you know, look the same. I’m sure this whole thing wouldn’t be a big deal if the various services rediscovered they had distinctive uniforms that weren’t utilities/flight suits and that you can, in fact, where those uniforms to meetings and other non combat things far from war zones.
If Marines are so hung up on looking different maybe your pilots should quit wearing USAF/USN flight suits.
I can’t believe that people can’t grasp the idea that there isn’t this huge bucket of money sitting around where we can afford to continue to spend money to develop and field all sorts of different uniforms for the sole purpose of looking different than one another. If one utility uniform can functionally perform the job, and it will save the government and the tax-payer money then it needs to be done. Just as all the services save the Army use the same flight uniform (CWU-27P) the Army needs to dump the A2CU that costs 2-3 times as much and lasts half as long, which was developed so SGMs everywhere wouldn’t have to look at aviators wearing “pickle suits” or tan bags…a ridiculous waste of money. Millions could be saved over time as this is a constant re-occurring cost.
Funny, but this old Navy Chief always thought that what distinguished Marines from other service members on the battlefield was that they were better at it.
And off the battlefield, Marine Corps uniforms already rock out with their cock out. I don’t really see the point of different combat uniforms other than making it easier for the other side’s intelligence people to identify who we have doing what and where.
P.S. And don’t get started on all the Navy uniform clusterfucks of the last forty years or so.
USMC Steve: So the Marines hold a patent for MARPAT. The US Marines are still a part of the US government, so the patent belongs to the goverment, and as a result belongs to the US taxpayers, collectively. This is silly. We don’t need a gazillion different combat uniforms, and this pissing contest about it (on both sides, but moreso, IMO, on the USMC’s part) is juvenile.
Actually, Jonn, Sergeant Major Kent retired today, if your post is correct, so his opinion, as of today is just that, his opinion.
All in all, this is a whole lot of nothing. Miss Ladybug is right, the taxpayers pay for it, in these times they should get the most bang for their buck. As long as the uniform doesn’t end up being pink…..
Miss Ladybug, I suspect you think it’s juvinile, simply because you are not a Marine. Some of the biggetst battles for survival the Marines have ever fought have been against the U.S. Army. We have spent entire decades huge amounts of political capital keeping ourselvs seperate from the Army. Don’t take this as too much of an insult but we do not want to be like the Army. The Army messed up thier current uniform (speeking of huge ammounts of wasted money). They have spent millions more evaluating different patterns. All they have to do to stop this argument is to pick a differnt patern. Multi cam was the winner of the Armys tests last time, but they choose the current pattern to try and do it on the cheap instead, of what was best for thier soldiers. So perhaps they should just go with the pattern that won last go round and call it good.
To those who think the Marines should give it up to save money, that’s simply retarded.
There is $BILLIONS$ of FAT we could trim off the budget,
WAY BEFORE we even get close to trimming the Military Budget.
Try again…
“they want Marines distinguished from other service members on the battlefield”
Okay, I was just an Army REMF and usually wore hospital whites on duty… but I thought the whole point of camouflage was so you could NOT be distinguished on the battlefield?
I first saw the verdant green MARPAT on Afghan MOD officers in 2003.
The pattern is effective. So is the design of the Marines’ boots. Kudos to the USMC for getting a good kit.
The Army has traditionally screwed its soldiers with the worst kit imaginable. Every good idea added 5 pounds, and every firefight sees one’s assigned weapon jamming regardless of environment.
BLUF: Universal patterns stand out in every environment except the contracting office. The Army, and all of the services, need a suite of suits to select from. I’m spitballing here, but guess there’s a winter version of the digipat, as well as an urban version with blacks and greys and browns and reds.
So good to the Corps for developing effective kit. Bad, bad Army! For choosing a uniform that failed every test at Natick as part of a long line of corrupt decisions.
Now, as Miss Ladybug and UpNorth so aptly point out: can we afford this argument? How many veterans are going to be enjoying increased medical costs because we vets and friends are bogged down in a urinary altercation.
That’s what I was trying to get at Sgt. D.
I’m not criticizing any service or views one way or another. I’m just stating a public perception that’s all.
Geez, I go to get a haircut, come back and you guys drank all of my liquor and left cigarette butts everywhere. I think you all missed my point; fuck Sergeant Majors.
I’ve been saying for years that the only thing the USMC really excels at is PR. If SgtMaj Kent really thought there was something special about Marines, he wouldn’t think they needed to wear a different uniform for people to know who they are. And if he really needs help telling the difference between soldiers and Marines I have a hint for him – the soldiers will be the ones doing every job their country calls on them to do, not just the ones that look good on a press release.
Yes ARMY, thanks for the “great” M-16A1 forced down everyones throat and all the “field testing” you did at the expense of Marines lives in VN…. surprisingly the Marines wanted to keep the M-14 which worked when it was dirty.
Lthrnck1775
yawn… Do you Marines really think your uniform is what makes you who you are? I thought it was your ability to take the fight to the enemy and being our expeditionary force of first choice? Is this no longer true…have I missed something. As an Army guy of some time on service, I’ve always been impressed with their ability to Make Shit Happen. I could always count on them to deliver. That being said, grow up.about your damn uniform. My personal experience makes me favor the muticam, the ACU is ridiculous. Whatever we choose, the USMC’s feelings are dead last in selection criteria. You don’t like or want to be associated with the Army? Then stop having us provide your log support. Oh wait..we’re supposed to work together, remember. Your joint expeditionary capabilities are underwritten by the other services, keeping your tooth to tail ratio low.
@Elric
Umm… if we didn’t have to keep making it “safe” for the Army we wouldn’t need the extended log train… 60 day combat by doctrine…. quit giving the territory back and we won’t need your log train.
Lthrnck1775
yawn… Do you Marines really think your uniform is what makes you who you are? I thought it was your ability to take the fight to the enemy and being our expeditionary force of first choice? Is this no longer true…have I missed something. As an Army guy of some time on service, I’ve always been impressed with their ability to Make Shit Happen. I could always count on them to deliver. That being said, grow up.about your damn uniform. My personal experience makes me favor the muticam, the ACU is ridiculous. Whatever we choose, the USMC’s feelings are dead last in selection criteria. You don’t like or want to be associated with the Army? Then stop having us provide your log support. Oh wait..we’re supposed to work together, remember. Your joint expeditionary capabilities are underwritten by the other services, keeping your tooth to tail ratio low. Be happy because that’s one hell of a deal if you can get it.
John@34 Roger that, including Kent, however, if anyone thinks that SgtMaj Kent decided to fire that shot across the Army’s bow all on his own they are sadly mistaken. That message was delivered signed and sealed from the United States Marine Corps via SgtMaj Kent, USMC (ret). It’s a signal that the Marine Corps is willing to fight over this issue. So the Army can pick another pattern or fight. AndyN, don’t read much history do you son?
Had lots of Marine MTTs show up at my doorstep needing supplies and never turned them away. Yeah it was a pain to jump our squadron 200 miles to establish a new Cop because the Marines couldn’t secure their own msr (Rt Bronze), 05. I know plenty of history, enough to know the difference between it and PR. I was a mission, and we had a productive relationship. Half the officers working for me in my last job were Marines, so I feel pretty good about my knowledge of the Corps. What I object to is the need of the Corps to denigrate other services to promote themselves.
Elric, you said MSR Bronze, where you near Hit?
re #35
Congratulations on writing the dumbest thing so far in an already ridiculous thread.
Dan, Rawah out to Ar Rabit on the Syrian border.
Dan….also had a mission to support a task force going after HVTs in Al Anbar and southern Ninevah. Their vehicles were having some ied surbivability problems. We had Strykers and were available.
Jonn, I agree with you, especially since the Army allows SGMs who have never deployed to sit on its uniform board and make decisions about camouflage uniforms that they will never wear into combat, whereas Uncle Sam’s Misguided Children have an entire warfighter lab made up of combat vets of all ranks and equipment ideas are encouraged by rank and file, unlike us Soldiers who get shouted down if we have a gear suggestion. The Army has always had that issue with taking ideas and suggestions from the ranks…
Okay thats it…
Everyone should wear a Khaki Commando Kilt.
http://www.sportkilt.com/product/3211/Khaki.html
It.is.just.a.bunch.of.fabric. Who cares. You can take just about any Marine, dress them up and throw them into a crowd and you know what, I could probably pick them out every fricken time. It is not what a Marine wears, it’s what inside that makes them a Marine – they just stand out (in a good way). Even though I am an Air Force vet, the service I have the most respect for are the Marines. Don’t make me change my mind with all this pointless bickering.
Geez, if it’s the best uniform then let all the services use it. Although, let’s go back to the other branches having the name/service tapes and Marines return to just the EGA with USMC underneath on the blouse pocket.
Elric, that went both ways with Marines also assisting National Guard and some Army units in MNF-W. Of course at that time MNF-W was bigger than just Al-Anbar Province. I too spent time there from May 2005 until Feb 2006 in Fallujah.
If COB6 is calling Amtracks a useles landing craft, I would like to klnow another armored assault vehicle that can launch from a ship and go through a 10 foot surf zone.
#30 Sgt. D:
Yes, I know there is a lot of fat that can be trimmed from the budget. I might start with eliminating the both DoEs. But we all know that’s not going to happen. Like it or not, DoD is going to have to trim $ from the budget. I’d rather take it out of uniform R&D than other area (pay & benefits, gear that will help keep our troops from getting killed or wound, etc.).