Robin Paul; vet suicide is hilarious (Updated)
Robin Paul is a licensed social worker at the Roudebush Veteran Affairs Medical Center in Indianapolis. She manages the hospital’s Seamless Transition Integrated Care Clinic which helps returning veterans with transition assistance, including mental health and readjustment services. According to Military.com, this is how she helps with that transition;
The email obtained by The Indianapolis Star contains photographs of a toy Christmas elf posing as a patient in what appears to be the hospital’s transitional clinic for returning veterans. In one photograph, the elf pleads for Xanax. In another, he hangs himself with an electrical cord.
Ha-ha-ha! That’s so funny. Of course, it’s not funny in the least and I don’t know why a social worker who works with veterans would think that it is funny – funny enough to email around the office to her workmates. From the IndyStar;
Julie Webb, a Roudebush spokeswoman, said administrators were made aware of the email “a couple of months ago.”
“The email is totally inappropriate and does not convey our commitment to veterans,” she said. “We apologize to our veterans and take suicide and mental health treatment seriously, striving to provide the highest quality.”
Webb said the issue was “administratively addressed.” She declined to provide specifics, citing employee confidentiality.
Paul remains employed at the hospital and continues to manage the clinic, earning an annual salary of $79,916. She received a $2,000 performance bonus in 2013, records show. More recent bonus information was not immediately available.
The Dec. 18 email was sent to the “IND STICC Team” with the subject, “Naughty Elf in the STICC clinic.”
Now, I don’t think that she should be fired, but, again this is indicative of a climate among folks who are employed at the VA to mock the people that they’re supposed to be helping.
As I’ve said in the past, the doctors and nurses at the VA are among the best in the world, my VA doctor is the sweetest, most helpful woman on the planet, but these administrative drones need an attitude adjustment. A big hammer kind of adjustment. There is a culture at the VA that needs to be dismantled – a culture of excuses. The bureaucracy at the VA has a thousand excuses why they can’t help veterans and not one excuse to maneuver around the system to help them. This incident is proof that this culture exists.
UPDATE: It looks like Ms. Paul is out on the street;
Manager at Indianapolis VA removed over what Indy VA Director calls totally unacceptable email.
— WTHR.com (@WTHRcom) March 10, 2015
But, see, it happened months ago and her supervisors knew about it, but no one did anything until the public found out. Gotta save the culture with a scapegoat.
Category: Veterans' Affairs Department
She should shoot herself in the face.
Disagree, ChipNASA. That’s a bit much.
However – with that attitude, perhaps she should go find another line of work.
You’re probably right Hondo but she’s still a giant bag of Douche.
Agreed.
I’m waiting for the day, which I’m betting is fairly soon, that Douchebag is added to the list of approved alternate lifestyles by the usual suspects among the thumb-sucking, mouth-breeding, snot-gobbling alphabet soup of grievance mongers.
I would not go that far, maybe the figurative PITT would do just fine!
Just sayin’!
No. She should find out what it is like to BE the person who has come to the end of her rope and sees no alternative.
Her behavior is inexcusable. She should definitely find another line of work befitting someone whose behavior indicates that she has the maturity of unbaked bread.
Frankly, I think she should have been fired on the spot. Perhaps if more incidents like this one are publicized, the VA will get its sorry act together.
Actually, all of the above, and fined. Also she deserves prison time!
If the folks working at the VA had to rely on the VA for their medical treatment, I’m sure that all of the problems that veterans have been seeing for years would magically disappear in a few months.
I’ve actually seen her in a medical capacity, and she was actually very nice. Don’t get me wrong, she effed up bad here. But I literally went to the OIF/OEF mental health clinic at this very VA just last week, and they were awesome to me. Some of you may have followed my facebook live blog of it, but the personnel from VA were really awesome. So, I get what you are saying, and the outrage etc. But this lady isn’t bad like you think. She made a mistake. It was dark humor.
Really, dark humor. A man shoots his wife in front of his two kids then kills himself. He was a naughty elf according to this women. My friend Cedric McPhail death was not funny.Im sure his two children would be damaged by her comments. Let me know about your life so I can make some dark humor about it. Then I’ll smile and pretend to help you. Then you can pay me your tax dolls after that.
I was once her client when she was a contractor for the VA VR, back in 2002. When she found out I had been hired by the state as a DVOP she laughed and told my coworkers things about me that were from my VA medical record. Recently a former grad school classmate of mine was assigned as an intern under her, when Ms Paul found out that she knew me, she made fun of me and made some very derogatory comments about me and my mental health. She also divulged information to the intern about me from my VA medical records. I am not in the STICC, I’m not eligible because I’m desert storm era. Ms Paul had no business divulging medical information nor had she any right nor reason to access my files. She may have been great to you, but best hope she wasn’t making fun of you behind your back. I worked very hard to prove to my coworkers that I was not the person Ms Paul portrayed me to be. Fortunately my coworkers took what she said with a grain of salt.
Ah, the VA’s stupid liberal bureaucrat problem personified…
This has nothing to do with liberalism. It is just an awful person.
The VERY first change that needs to be made is to stop collective bargaining and kick the government employee union(s) to the curb, and out of the federal service.
Many, if not all, of the bureaucracy situations like we see in this article are the result of a culture where, once you are in, it’s almost impossible to fire you, and that needs to stop. These folks know that they can get away with almost anything. I’ve seen and experienced it firsthand in multiple VA hospitals.
Get rid of the union(s), and let the employees know that they will be retained and paid based upon a meritocracy, and held responsible for what they do, or fail to do. That is the very first thing that needs to be done in order to start cleaning up the VA and, eventually, the rest of the federal agencies.
I get that it’s probably stressful. Any environment where day in and day out you see people with meidcal issues that need help. Sometimes it’s just not enough and every day they are back, some really needing help. Maybe they don’t even understand what’s wrong or how to go about getting that help (machismo is an obstalce for sure).
I get that sometimes you need a little stress release and sometimes that maniac feeling of being out of control gets the best of you. You just do something crazy in a crazy world.
I get it. I really do.
Now imagine loosing two friends to the same act that is portrayed by a doll.
I get it. I….
fuck it. I don’t get it. At all.
I was there yesterday, and it was a big discussion point all over the hospital. I have had nothing but good experiences there. I hate seeing one oh shit trump a hundred atta boys.
But I think she needs smacked around. Administratively speaking.
y’know, my aunt spent over 30 years as a counselor, psychologist, and social worker at VA, counseling screwed up service members. She always referred to them as ‘her boys’, worked tirelessly to help them, and even died from the COPD brought on by sitting in a little office sucking up second-hand smoke from stressed out guys chain-smoking their stress away (she never smoked a day in her life.) One great lady…I’m surprised she hasn’t risen from her grave to bitch-slap this cretin into next week.
“One great lady…I’m surprised she hasn’t risen from her grave to bitch-slap this cretin into next week.”
I would pay to see that.
I’d get a shovel and help dig her out.
If she’s a licensed social worker, she’s not a drone. She’s directly responsible for how people get treated in her clinic. If she’s in charge, then there IS a problem.
I’m going to clue you in to something you’re not going to like, but probably should know about, so you don’t get shocked along the way somewhere. Medical humor is dark. Medical people laugh at patients and joke about illness, disease, and death. We’re told it is from the stress of working with life and death situations all the time, of seeing people day in and out with terrible diseases and problems. But — and this is a BIG but — we’re also KNOW and are TOLD to keep it away from the patients. ALWAYS. It might be the way we cope sometimes, but it is completely inappropriate around the people who are suffering. And any time someone gets careless with that type of ‘humor,’ this is exactly what happens — And SHOULD happen. You PULVERIZE anyone who is this insensitive.
Pinto Nag – you’re right. The medical side deals with the crap that humanity gives us every day, not just life and death, but all of the shit that people do to others since the dawn of time. But there is an unwritten code that we have… to be caring, compassionate and respectful of those in our care. The true professionals don’t do the crap that Ms. Paul did in front of those in their care or send stuff like what she did in an e-mail, post on Facebook or other social media.
Ms. Paul violated the trust that she had with those under her care by her actions. Why she has a job with the VA is a question that we probably will never know.
Spot on, my wife is a programmer for a hospital and is constantly telling me the stuff that they joke about with the nurses and some of the doctors…
It is not what most people consider funny, but I understand where it comes from.
I am certain that many folks don’t understand military humor or how we sometimes talk to each other….they might not be aware of a greeting that starts off with “Hey fucknuts” is actually a term of endearment.
It’s stupid it got out into the public stream of consciousness, but I’m not certain this rises to the level of moral outrage.
Indeed. Just look up the actual name of the theme song from the movie and TV show MASH.
I agree.
What you do on your own time to relieve job-related stress is your business, as long it doesn’t affect doing your job.
Broadcasting your stupid tricks to everyone you know is never a good idea.
When did bad taste become okay? I never got the memo.
Bad taste never became okay. Society’s sanctions for being a tasteless j-hole and/or idiot just atrophied.
The comment about dark humor among medical professionals resonates with a personal experience I had on a deployment.
One of the best musical parody videos I have ever seen was made and produced by personnel at a military hospital (ROLE III). In the grand scheme, it was pretty stupid (based on that inane “Selfie” song) but damn it was slick and well done- genuinely funny to me and I wasn’t even a part of that staff, so I imagine a lot of the inside baseball was completely lost to me.
After it was over- I told the hospital commander that it was outstanding and would be well-received at their special farewell event for key staff, but that they should take great care to make sure it never got out into the public space because such a video would only create questions along the lines of how many patients didn’t get the care they needed because the hospital staff had time to make a silly video. Right, wrong…fair, unfair…sometimes there’s no defending the optics even when the best of intentions are involved.
What I’ve learned over the years is that sometimes we want to be able to laugh at certain situations that have such a profound effect on our own psyche and well being, but to others who are living those situations or didn’t survive or those who have family members that are going through it- there is nothing humorous about it.
Only ~27-28% of VA employees are veterans. I’m not surprised at the service issues, attitudes and overall culture.
Word.
This is one of my big issues. There are tons of qualified veterans applying for these positions on USAjobs, yet they are passed over for idiots such as the one mentioned in the story.
If anything is going to change at the VA, it has to start with the ones making the decisions on hiring. Personally, I’d love to clear out a huge chunk of the HR staff that turn up their nose at hiring vets.
Yep! I’ve been saying it for a while now!
It’s actually hard to hire veterans in clinical/licensed specialties like this. VAs end up competing with each other to get them (the last clinic I was at lost out on three veterans in a row we wanted to hire because another VA offered a higher step for the initial salary than our HR would allow. They were the first choice each time).
I was referring to the admin positions, say an Administrative Officer for instance.
I know that some of these places are being pressed to hire more veterans under public scrutiny, but there is still a mentality in a lot of the HR workplace where they do not feel that veterans should get any kind of point preference on the hiring selections.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-push-to-hire-veterans-into-federal-jobs-spurs-resentment/2014/09/14/c576e592-2edc-11e4-bb9b-997ae96fad33_story.html?hpid=z1
HR is the most ridiculously screwed up part of the VA. I would *love* it if being a veteran was a requirement to be hired in an HR position. Either that or outsource HR like suggested as an option in the Blueprint for Excellence.
The veterans as AOs part varies between facilities. All of the ones in my service here are vets. The last one had an AD spouse and a vet.
The VA where I am now has a recruiter whose sole job is to help veterans get hired by the VA (he covers 2 or 3 states). I got his name from one of our admin people (a veteran he helped get hired who is on active duty) and have given it to a few people. Hope he can get them on board too (one wants and is qualified for an HR job).
There are some things that you don’t joke about and suicide is one of those things, veteran or civilian.
“Burn the witch!”
(administratively of course)
Go after her licensing; the Indiana Licensing Board would probably find this extremely disturbing for a clinical social worker to be doing.
Been around a lot of dark humor over the years, and yes indeed, it is a legitimate coping mechanism for many work groups. That certainly does not excuse such reprehensible behavior by this idiot who not only should have known better but was being paid to see that others also did not act inappropriately.
Other comments mention several important rules (some unwritten, others which probably are or should be in written form)which she violated. Can only add that it is NEVER OK for a civilian to denigrate a veteran when they are being paid to assist that veteran in some way. It is not really defensible for civilians to ever do that, but certainly not when they are being paid to serve veterans on behalf of the nation.
This is one of those times when it really is not complicated – this witch has demonstrated an inability to effectively function in the job we pay her to do so she should be replaced. Whether she should be allowed to retain her state license is up to the state.
One other related objection I have to all this is that you and I can say things to each other which might sound disgusting were others to hear it. In private, two people can say things which should never be made public, and it’s OK. Public humiliation is seldom appropriate. That’s what she did when she published this garbage, stuff she should not have done at all, much less be made public.
Even when you consider the morbid humor that some professionals in the medical field use as a coping mechanism this individuals attempt still comes off as sophmoric, shallow and wildly insensitive. Especially when you consider her level of licensure. It appears to me and I could be wrong as I have been wrong in the past (just ask my wife) but there just seems to be the feeling that she excuted some half-assed attempt at humor. My advice to her would be if you don’t know what you’re doing leave the dark-humor to the professionals, 68W types, Navy Corpsman, AF Med Techs, Para Rescue, EMT’s, ER RN’s, ED Docs and such. Oh and don’t send stupid shit to co-workers thru your work email.
The VA says it dealt with the email issue in January, whatever that means. Paul sent out the email to others, including subordinates, probably in December. Clearly, she was comfortable in doing so, no doubt believing the recipients to be kindred spirits. And that in itself is disturbing. Yes, someone served up the email to the Star recently but, unfortunately, we don’t know what prompted that person to do so. It could have been a vengeful act or it could have been frustration with the action the VA took back in January. We’ll never know and I don’t much care. What I do care about is learning how many, if any, of the Veterans that office has treated have attempted or committed suicide and how those numbers compare or contrast with those of other VA offices. That’s where the real value of this incident’s coming to light may be.
Can’t help but wonder if she isn’t somehow related to Lindsey Stone?
Funny you should mention her, because I was just thinking about the fact that I’m not normally one to call for a person’s head just because they have a moment of stupidity. I didn’t think that Stone should have been fired. She had a moment and paid for it with public vilification. That doesn’t mean she should be fired.
This woman at the VA, on the other hand, has done something that goes way beyond a moment of stupidity. She had demonstrated a complete and total lack of sympathy for the people that she is tasked with helping. She is not fit for the position she occupies and should be removed immediately.
I think Stone should have been fired.
Where were all of the disabled people she should have been attending? Furthermore, what type of example was she setting for her professional position and/or that of the company’s?
She is an idiot. Doing it on her own time, maybe I see your argument. Doing it on company time, there is the door.
She should be terminated.
The VA needs to start addressing accountability.
GT – the Federal Government needs to start addressing accountability, but that won’t happen as long as Bodaprez and his minions are running the show…
My thing is, it’s the whole elf on the shelf bullshit that ran rampant over social media this past year, with people showing the cute little elf doing all sorts of sick and twisted, yet funny, things. Yes, this one might have gone a little too far, but I don’t feel it’s worth near the outrage it’s receiving, especially as old a story as it is. Ymmv
This….now THIS is FUNNY….
Exacty lol. There’s dozens like that out there that are hilarious. Yes this one may be in poor taste, but I don’t necessarily agree that she should be fired. Its public now, I think the “doh!” factor is enough to get her attention.
I wonder if the situation was changed…she was working in the private sector and she pulled this stunt. What would be the results be then?
The repercusdions would be a boatload of a loss of patients and she would be fired from the company.
Fire her immediately!
Raise the standards and care of the VA! One idiot at a time and send a message! Let’s get serious!
Maybe this is less of a stunt and more of a call for help? The problems of others have a way of becoming your problems sometimes.
UPDATE: It looks like Ms. Paul is out on the street;
But, see, it happened months ago and her supervisors knew about it, but no one did anything until the public found out. Gotta save the culture with a scapegoat.
Jonn, they placed her on leave and are investigating her… she hasn’t been fired
http://www.wthr.com/story/28356477/veterans-affairs-employee-placed-on-leave-over-controversial-email
Wonder how long the investigation will take?
I would be more curious to see if Regional or General Counsel defends her.
I’d doubt it, GT. It looks like more senior management is looking for a way to make the situation “go away”. A scapegoat – and an at least partially-deserving one at that – appears to be readily available.
What will be more interesting is to see if the AFGE (the Federal employee union) goes to bat for her. Normally, they probably wouldn’t lift a finger to help a member of management. However, here it’s my assessment they just might – if for no other reason than to prevent creation of a precedent they might not like.
AFGE does not cover VA employees in supervisory positions (team and clinic lead both fall in this category). When you accept a promotion to a position like this there is paperwork acknowledging that you no longer are covered under the CBA.
That is true. But it also may turn out to be irrelevant if AFGE finds it in their own interest to become involved. Uninvolved organizations submit amicus curia (“friend of the court”) briefings in court cases all the time if they have an ideological or financial stake in a case’s outcome. Though this is an administrative matter at this point, AFGE may choose to do the same here. I am aware of nothing forbidding AFGE from voluntarily assisting an individual in such a case, even if that individual is not represented by the union. (Disclaimer: I have no idea of the details of AFGE’s agreement with the VA in the Indianapolis area or nationally, and that agreement may explicitly ban such.) Here, it’s conceivable that AFGE may choose to do so in a case they’d normally not enter to prevent the setting of a precedent that they don’t want set. Or they may not. I’d guess they won’t, but I could be wrong. Moreover, while the individual here has been described as a “manager” in press accounts, it’s not at all clear to me whether she’s formally in a supervisory position. Her salary equates to a mid-step GS-12. For professional (credentialed) labor categories, positions at that grade may or may not be supervisory. If she’s not formally designated as a supervisor, she may well be entitled to AFGE representation. I’d guess she’s in fact been designated as a supervisor, but I don’t know that to be fact. The press has “gotten things wrong” a few times before. There’s also the fact that most Federal agencies appear to cave these days at the threat of legal action – union or private – by an employee who claims they’ve been “wronged” by management. That’s true even when management is 100% correct, and the employee is at least partially or completely at fault. Bottom line: I’d guess she’s a manager, and (as I noted above) I’d guess AFGE will thus probably take a pass at becoming involved. But I don’t know the former, and it’s not inconceivable that AFGE will find it in… Read more »
It would be very unusual for an LCSW GS-12 to not be in a supervisory position. GS-11 is the full performance level and it is rare for a nonsupervisory LCSW to get a 12. Combiner with her title, it is unlikely she is covered by AFGE.
The Master Agreement is available online if anyone wants to look up specifics
GEN Counsels defend agencies not employees. If a govt employee is sued and is covered by employment provisions, typically they will be represented by an attorney other than agency Gen Counsel.
Knowing civil service, I’d be surprised if she were to be removed over this – at least if she’s had no prior disciplinary history. Even if she’s squeaky-clean, though, I think a suspension without pay is a realistic outcome.
The fact that it took publicity for any action to be taken means her supervisor should be the one worried about their job.
But, I doubt any of them are really worried. Its just going to be a little while for it to blow over and they’ll go back to work like nothing happened.
Good. I’m glad she got fired.
I understand and do appreciate dark humour, but not when it concerns suicide. That is never acceptable under any circumstances.
If you are going to “joke” about suicide, then I would suggest you use your private email at home and only with your friends.
Do it at work, using your work email, a job that is suppose to take care of Veterans that just may be suicidal, well you are a moron and should not be anywhere near patients period.
Sent it to her subordinates hence giving the impression that this type of behavior is acceptable. I think her one or two defenders “forgot” that part.
Let’s hope she’s sacking “groceries” at the local stockyards next time we hear about her.
There ought to be a top-to-bottom look-see at that facility commenced forthwith. When public pressure prompts this sort of quick response to what was portrayed as a dated and moot issue, it’s as likely a case as serve-em-up-before-they-look-at-us (!) CYA as it is anything else. As I said above, the numbers of suicides and attempted suicides among Veterans treated there should be scrutinized to see whether this is more than merely dark humor.
It should be at ALL facilities, not just that one.
Good point. If there is a systemic issue with a culture of apathy, there could be a relation and nexus to suicide rates in the population served.
But what do I l know … I am just a former BT!
I hope she is fired after sitting at home for a year while she fights it and it is investigated.
Yes … Admin Leave average is 6 – 12 months prior to termination.
I WANT this heifer to be out on the street but everything I’m reading says she’s on paid admin leave.
Most of us have done stupid things when we were young, but they were stupid, not harmful.
This kind of behavior is what breaks the trust we’re supposed to have in people who are considered to be trustworthy.
If someone like this cannot be trusted to behave appropriately in what can only be considered a public venue, which in this case was sharing a crappy ‘joke’ through e-mail, how can you trust her in private?
That isn’t a joke. I don’t give a damn how stressful your job is. You can find some other way to blow off steam that is not at the apparent expense of people who trust you. And that means that if you think some asinine joke like this is funny, or the childish behavior of someone like Lindsey Stone or those imbecilic tourists at the Coliseum is acceptable – even a little bit – then you have a problem.
It isn’t funny. It isn’t acceptable. Laughing about it and then passing it on to others who may or may not make it public implies that you’re more interested in getting attention for yourself than anything else. And yes, it does mean that you can’t be trusted.
Just ask how you would like to be someone having a very bad day, on the receiving end of that crap before you hit ‘send’.
I don’t know where the hell common sense went. It seems to have gone down the toilet.
Only after public outrage reached critical mass did the VA do the right thing (apparently) and can her. As others have stated it is the corrosive, dysfunctional culture within the VA that is the real problem. I want to see a top VA leader come out and publically condemn this disgraceful episode. I won’t hold my breath.
The top VA leader is too busy hiding from his Special Forces comment.
I’ve been seen in this clinic for years and know this woman. She genuinely cares about Veterans. This email was taken out of context and/or was a momentary lapse in judgment. I’m actually sad to see that happen because she was one of the ones who cared
That is part of the problem, isn’t it? Whether she cared, pretended to care, or simply pretended to not care in one instance became irrelevant by her own hand. If she was helping folks, this is indeed very sad. It is horrific if she was just pretending to care all this time, and accidently helped people in spite of it.
I’ll give you an example of how this happens. I work on the psychiatric side of the house. I love funny bumperstickers. My favorite is one that says, “Some days it doesn’t pay to gnaw through the straps.” Now. No matter how dedicated and caring I am, how do you think it would be received to have that bumpersticker on my car in the parking lot?? Answer: NOT. WELL. AT. ALL. And so, I don’t put that bumpersticker on my car. That’s how it works, and it takes self-monitoring at all times to not make stupid mistakes that could cost you your job.
You’re not wrong
I hate you guys right now. I’ve gotten “conflicted” on this and confliction gives me wicked heart burn.
Here’s part of my conflictation: This smells a bit of the same ol’ same ol’ tactical crap that the grievance mongers use.
Imo, stuff like this should be all and only about job performance. If she’s been doing a good job, then cut some slack and call it a learning experience. If she’s a slacker and a paycheck leach, then ok. Curb stomp it, by legal means, of course.
I’ve seen shite like this bit o’ humor that’s got the uproar going and, for my own self, tend to view it as a civvie trying to produce a piece of the usual dark humor that military personnel often resort to when under stress. The attempts are, most often, sideways and upside down, but, offered in good faith.