Lovelace was “one-on-one” with instructor before his death
The Washington Post reports that a SEAL instructor was pulled from his teaching position following the death of James Lovelace the other day.
The instructor was removed this week following the May 6 death of Seaman James Derek Lovelace, 21, of Crestview, Fla., said Navy Cmdr. Jason Salata, a spokesman for Naval Special Warfare Command. The incident occurred during the famously grueling Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL (BUD/S) course at Naval Amphibious Base Coronado in California.
NBC News and the Virginian-Pilot have jointly conducted their own interviews;
According to more than a half-dozen sources who’ve spoken to The Pilot — none of whom are eyewitnesses, but who include two family members of SEAL students who were present during the incident and a former SEAL who’s coaching a student through the same course — Lovelace had been held underwater before passing out.
Unlike what was initially described by the Navy, the sources say the drill involved physical harassment of trainees by instructors in the water, intended to test their ability to stay afloat under stress.
It wasn’t a “drown proofing” drill, as was initially reported, but a more intense exercise known as “combat tread,” according to three of the sources. During “combat tread,” students swim in camouflage uniforms while instructors grab at them in the water.
Category: Navy
Until the video of the actual incident is released, any comment would be pure speculation. May God rest this sailor’s soul. If the instructor was over- bearing and contributed to the sailor’s death, may God have mercy on him.
^^^THIS^^^
“According to more than a half-dozen sources who’ve spoken to The Pilot — none of whom are eyewitnesses…” First, the Virginia-Pilot is a rag. Second, after an event such as this, speculation and bullshittery runs rampant. Even if it was one-on-one, then it doesn’t follow that the instructor did anything wrong or unusual, as the totality of these speculative pieces suggest.
Other than his immediate family I would venture to say no one is more devastated than the Instructors who were there when this happened.
In any intense training like this, there is supposed to be a signal that says ‘STOP’. We do not know if that signal was given.
It is not a good idea to do the he-said/she-said now.
Bleeding hearts will freak out at this, whether it’s true or not, but SEALs are often described as “combat swimmers.” What the hell do people think that means? Here’s a hint: it ain’t what Michael Phelps does in his lap pool. Their job requires them to swim very long distances carrying lots of heavy shit. Sometimes they have to swim, without flotation, while supporting a nonambulatory casualty, who could possibly be combative due to a head injury. Sometimes they might even need to engage in mortal hand-to-hand combat while in the water. Don’t you think they probably should be trained to swim under such adverse conditions? Most people can’t do what SEALs do. That’s the whole point of BUD/S, especially Hell Week. They’re weeding out the guys who are physically and/or mentally unable to keep going. Ever heard of a book called “Lone Survivor” that later got a movie deal? Marcus Luttrell took multiple bullet and shrapnel wounds, had to jump off SEVERAL cliffs, broke his back AND his leg, and then CRAWLED across TEN FUCKING MILES of the Hindu Kush mountains. The majority of guys who try to become SEALs can’t do that. BUD/S narrows it down to the very few who can. The way you train somebody to operate under adverse conditions is by putting them in a similar adverse condition. The military does it all the time. So do cops. So do firefighters. You know what the very best structure fire training a new firefighter can get is? Live fire in a condemned structure that we are actually burning to the ground. Not a propane-fueled prop. Instructors and students get burned every time we every time, but a kid who cooks his ears and neck because he didn’t understand the meaning of “snake-crawl” is a kid who won’t make the same mistake where it would probably kill him. Rescue training is the same way: dragging a plastic dummy is one thing; trying to move an unconscious, rag-dolled 200+lb dude in full gear is somethings else entirely. Rescue swimmers have to be trained to deal with panicking swimmers… Read more »
Word!
Very well put.
Unfortunately I believe the SEALs are under attack by the same media that put them above everyone else and in the lime light. So do to this anything that looks bad or doesn’t look right the media will try to expose. This is the Military there are training accidents that happen all the time and some result in death. The problem is (no disrespect to others I fall in here) also)those others are not the supposed elite of the elite so when one of them go down in accident or in harms way it is perceived to be worse then the others and they are all tragic period. The media and public will never get this as long as we hold them above everyone else.
You can’t put the Gini back in the bottle so they SEAL’S will have to deal with that. There was a time when I came in it was no big thing about SEALs half the Navy didn’t really know about them or what they did like us and EOD. After 911 the bottle was rubbed and they came out from the darkness into the light and well here we are today.
You don’t see media all over the Rangers 75th and all over the other SOF types. It is slowly happing but that’s because the SEAL thing is starting to outplay its self.
This is tragic and we need to move on but that will be hard because of their brand and media.
You really need to proof read your posts.
It gave me a headache to try to follow your line of thought.
Since Carter has now allowed women into all combat arms training, the next course of this liberal dinner discussion will be, “Are they going to keep doing this type of training with the women? This has to be changed!” Yes the liberals who never serve will have a field day with this one.
This is a sad event. Period. For the family of this Seaman Lovelace and for the instructor(s) involved.
It is even more disgusting that liberal rags are going to use this as fodder for ad space.
The Virginia-Pilot putting the military or service members in the worst possible light?
Yeah, this is my shocked face. If they didn’t push the, “dogs and sailors, keep off the grass” bullshit, they’d have nothing to write about.
And now is NOT the time to be speculating over someone’s death, using second or third hand hearsay, either.
And the media wonders why people have no faith in them.
If you kill your trainees by training them, then you are doing it wrong. Trainers are responsible for the trainees safety. Bottom fucking line. If the young man had a medical condition that led to his death, it was the medical screening that failed him. Otherwise, the instructor (s) failed him. If it was willful negligence, manslaughter charges are in order for those responsible. As a NCO, my troops welfare is uppermost in my mind. SEALs are supposed to be the best among us, and one would expect them to have better control of their training evolutions.
Congratulations. You win the Moerk Award.
Thank you. I will put it somewhere that you can see it while you are standing in line to wait your turn to kiss my ass. I mean that in a good way.
That’s funny. Ass kissing is exactly what the Moerk Award is all about. The way it works is to kiss a lot of ass in the hopes that, one day, others will want to kiss the kisser’s. You are getting ahead of yourself. I, too, mean these things in a good way.
Bless you, but how does anything I put in that message thing constitute ass kissing? I thought the moerk award was for getting butt hurt on the internet & jumping the COC etc… I am wondering what about my post is wrong (or you disagree with). I have had to work with ass kissers and backstabbers a lot in my careers, and do not consider myself as one. Maybe you can enlighten me. I am not smart like your pal Lars.
Our jobs are dangerous. Training equally so. Sometimes people die in both. The welfare of your Soldiers comes second to the mission.
I am a mission first kind of guy, but I will put the welfare of my soldiers above mine and I will not put their lives at unnecessary risk for training purposes. I understand training can be dangerous, people still die on land nav lanes. I do not think that is necessary. Injuring and killing is what I want them to do to the enemy. Train them to use the tactics & weapons to accomplish that goal.
Die on land nav lanes?
Maybe some 2nd Lt?
I specifically recall one such incident at Camp Shelby several years ago.
Yes and no.
If the instructor was negligent, then yes, hammer him.
However, if not, how do you reconcile it? Again, many things we don’t know yet, nor should we speculate about at this time.
Sadly, sometimes accidents do happen.
Absolutely, this needs to be invesitgated & fixed. Accidents happen because somebody fucked up.
Composite Risk Management
Yup. But we can’t become so risk averse that we completely lose all training value, which invariably gets more people killed when TSHTF.
Again, I stand by my earlier assertion: IF the instructor was negligent or malicious, hammer him. If not, learn and move on. Accidents do happen.
Either way, I can’t imagine the shit he’s feeling right now.
Perhaps we should design a game, call it “SEAL Warrior Training”, then let the BUDS students sit in an air conditioned lounge, on a nice comfy sofa, with an I pad, (or current game toy), and if they can beat the game they will be given the Trident. Would surely save the lives of trainees, maybe not their minds, but their lives.
Good idea, then shoot them in random parts of their body to see if they survive being shot. How else do you train for being shot? If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball.
This certainly is a sad turn of events and tragic death. That said, if becoming a SEAL was easy everyone would do it. I feel the instructors should be investigated, but the trainee also knows the risks going into this program.
Rest in peace my brother.
You’re beginning to bore me.
Losiento mucho.
ac·ci·dent
ˈaksədənt/
noun
1.
an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.
“he had an accident at the factory”
synonyms: mishap, misadventure, unfortunate incident, mischance, misfortune, disaster, tragedy, catastrophe, calamity; technicalcasualty
“an accident at work”
2.
an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.
“the pregnancy was an accident”
synonyms: (mere) chance, coincidence, twist of fate, freak; More
Just sayin
I have an idea, let’s remove all known risk from training. There’s no need ever to fire live rounds. A blank and a laser light will do. Pilots can train only in simulators. Paratroopers can jump from towers with bungee cords and airbags attached. If there isn’t a ship simulator for sailors to stay on land, let’s develop one. It can rock and pitch (or whatever they do), just like the real thing. Risk can be all but eliminated. Oh, and let’s get cameras installed everywhere, except inside the showers and latrines. We can go with audio only in them. This way, if anyone gets hurt or says something that might constitute bullying or offensive gestures or language, they’re toast. I don’t know why I am wasting this plan here. I need to get it off to the Pentagon!
Might as well put the cameras in the bathrooms too since it no longer matters which one anyone goes in and soon all children will know what kind of “plumbing” everyone has anyway. No need for privacy anymore.
/sarc
sorry just can’t resist:::::
“Bathroom Lives Matter”
“If the young man had a medical condition that led to his death, it was the medical screening that failed him.” Really?
Do you really believe all medical conditions can be detected and that should have happened in this case? You don’t think one’s physical condition can change very quickly? Every heard of world class athletes, who undergo almost endless medical testing, having a cardiac event and dropping dead? Ever heard of astronauts, who arguably undergo the most thorough medical testing known, who pass their medical examinations for months or years, and who wash out of the program because they suddenly developed a disqualifying medical condition? Things change. Quickly. Damn quickly. Having been in multiple aspects of medicine for 41 years prior to retirement, I can attest to that. Now, if your statement is that IF he had a preexisting medical condition that SHOULD have been detected by the screening process but was not, that is a different storyline.
Yeah, “pre-existing…” you are correct Chief. Fuck me for being lazy when I typed that without the proper qualifier. I was using my stupid smartphone which I fried this morning. Yes, I know people’s medical conditions change. To me, Pistol Pete is one example. He had a condition all his life that went undetected until the latter part of his career. I can find a lot more wrong with my statement that you reference, but it might appear that I may be making light of the young man’s death. He deserves respect for maxing out his efforts to achieve a lofty goal. Too bad it cost him his life.
Actually, the condition that led to Pete Maravich’s death wasn’t discovered until his autopsy. Maravich died of apparent sudden cardiac arrest during a pick-up basketball game 7+ years after his retirement. Maravich’s basketball career was cut short by knee problems, not cardiac issues.
His last words – per someone who was there, uttered less than a minute before he collapsed – were, “I feel great.”
During autopsy, it was discovered that Maravich had a rare congenital heart abnormality: he had only one coronary artery vice two. He’d lived his entire life – including his entire NBA career – without that having caused any issues. His heart abnormality was completely unknown prior to his death. It was also effectively undetectable given the technology of the day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Maravich
He was a true bad ass, lived a kick ass life, and died the way I would like to go with those last words.
You nailed it. Sadness by his loss.
My point was that Maravich had a “pre-existing” medical condition (he was born with it) that was not reasonably detectable. It eventually killed him during a period of high physical exertion. Before then, it wasn’t even suspected to exist.
Who do you propose to hold accountable for “failing” in not detecting the undetectable?
Some accidents/incidents simply are not reasonably preventable other than by avoiding all situations involving risk. That was the case with Maravich’s death.
I do not know if the incident here falls into that category or not. But it is entirely possible that it does – and that literally no one “failed”. Alternatively, it is entirely possible that someone was negligent or otherwise responsible for this young man’s death.
Which is the case is for the investigation to determine.
Just a reminder:
If you’ve never been;
A military-trained diver, especially a combat swimmer/combat diver.
-or, especially-
An instructor/trainer of the above.
You really don’t know. At all.
I won’t lecture, I just want to make one thing absolutely clear.
There was zero motive here to punish, ‘toughen up’, etc.
There are many, many ways for the instructors to put guys in the hurt locker for one reason or another.
When it comes to comfort in the water, and detecting ‘freak outs’ – guys who just were not made to be in rough, cold, water at night – the only focus is on figuring out who is who early on. Because a guy that is not wired to be in the water in the worst of conditions and still be able to function needs to be sent somewhere else to serve ASAP.
And outside of our gutsy departed Sailor’s family, nobody is taking a worse beating right now than that 1st phase instructor, from himself, in his own head.
And in closing, one more reminder. Training in SOF is about as dangerous as a shooting war. Look at the #s of Teamguys KIT prior to a couple of helo shoot-downs and KIT and KIA were about even.
I won’t even get into the critically injured in training as opposed to in combat. Training ‘wins’, by a large margin.
I’m still focused on “none of whom were eyewitnesses”, which to me translates to “unsubstantiated bullshit at this time.”
How many high school kids do you hear of annually who keel over during sports practice of previously undiagnosed conditions? The human body is pretty sneaky.
Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but it seems any time any part of the military has good press, the media looks high and low for any possible way to tear them down. Praise them to the skies…then try to sensationalize every possible negative because it’s more fun to tear down the superior than the average.
After reading all the current replies, I have this one thing to say from a Gold Star Mother or Parent of which I am: Is that only thing that really needs to be said and this will include the idiots and heartless of the media is GOD BLESS THE LOVELACE FAMILY, INSTRUCTORS,AND HIS TEAMMATES. HIS MOTHER AND FATHER NEED LOVE, PRAYERS AND if you are a praying person then send prayer for peace to the Lovelace Family.MOST OF ALL RESPECT from each and everyone of us. Thank you
Mickey,
The USA is owes you a debt than can never be repaid.
Mr. Sharkman, Thank you