Transgender ban discussion at the Pentagon
The Miami Herald discusses some of the issues that the Pentagon is struggling with in regards to folks with Gender Identity Disorder who say that all they want to do is serve in the military like everyone else.
Much of the opposition centers on questions of where transgender troops would be housed, what berthing they would have on ships, which bathrooms they would use and whether their presence would affect the ability of small units to work well together.
There also are questions about whether the military would conduct or pay for the medical treatment and costs associated with any gender transition, as well as which physical training standards the troops would be required to meet.
The military has dealt with similar questions as it has integrated the ranks by race, gender and sexual orientation. And in many cases comparable worries have been raised, including whether the changes would hinder small units that often have to work together in remote, confined locations for long periods of time.
Yeah, that’s all probably the least of our worries. How about someone answer me the question “Why?” We have the best military in the world the way it exists today, so what about this issue would possibly improve their ability to kill large numbers of the enemy and destroy their stuff?
There are already a large class of the US population who think that the military is a huge welfare system – people like Andre Shepherd, the deserter who was living in his car before he saw the Army as his way out of poverty. Then there was Kimberly Rivera, another deserter whose husband saw her service as his way out of Walmart and her parents’ basement.
Now, the Gender Identity Disorder crowd will see the military as their free source of swapping out their uglies. I pity the squad leader and platoon sergeant who has to sort through these issues for the first time.
The argument is that “other nations” have dealt with the issue, so who cares? We’re not “other nations”. We’re the United States of America – the country that changed the course of human history. We’ve never followed “other nations”, so why should we start now?
This is another useless issue that won’t help our military kill more of our enemies, but will cost money that should be spent on training and weapons that will kill more of our enemies.
Category: Military issues
Just what the military needs – an influx of people who have severe mental issues.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
So the point of this is to recruit the next Bradley Manning? That’s a good thing?
I think part of this can be made easy. At the time of enlistment, the candidate ‘chooses’ their gender — and they only get to do that ONCE. That’s where they house and train them, to include the standards set for that gender for that training. Step out of line, fail to meet the standards, you’re gone — and that includes any emotional turmoil caused by the hormonal treatments, or physical problems caused by the surgeries.
Dealing with the medical part is harder, but I can’t see where splitting hairs is going to work, so they might as well gear up to deal with the medical care and surgeries if they’re going to go down this road.
If/when the soldier has ‘buyer’s remorse’ concerning their gender choice, they’re separated with an other-than-honorable discharge, patted on the head, and sent down the road. No benefits, no lawsuits, nothing. They either serve their time as a regular troop, or they get booted. No in-between.
That’s my take on how this should be done. YMMV.
The surgeries should be performed at a military hospital or nearest VA clinic. We in the military have some of the “greatest” doctors (those that graduated in the middle to bottom end of their class). You want it free, you get what you paid for.
While the peeps in the Pentagon are contemplating this issue, they should know that the transgender teen voted homecoming king at a North Carolina highschool recently committed suicide.
http://www.newnownext.com/teen-crowned-ncs-first-trans-homecoming-king-commits-suicide/03/2015/
In addition, the suicide rate among TG people is high, as is their attempted suicide rate.
http://www.livescience.com/11208-high-suicide-risk-prejudice-plague-transgender-people.html
I’m not sure I even have an opinion on this any more.
I simply do not want to walk into the women’s head/bathroom or locker at the gym and find a naked man there with all his naughty bits hanging out. I don’t care what his claim is.
It’s entirely possible that TG women will make it through combat infantry, satisfying the SE crowd, but they are STILL genetically male, which as others before me have observed, is something that you can’t change.
The college campus that I go to has integrated for transgender individuals. The way they’ve done this is by having one ‘single’ restroom on each floor which is any gender, the other restroom on that floor being alternatively for men or for women (ie, one building, it’ll be women’s restroom on the first floor, men’s on the second, and so on).
The locker rooms have similar stalls for transgender individuals; this school is pretty much RENOWNED for how whacked out to left field it is, even by today’s liberal education standards. However, a telling thing: they recently put a vote to the student body and associated, proposing a new campus gym and rec center be built. One of the ‘selling points’ was that it would have better amenities for the transgender individuals on campus. Big splashy designs, lots of buzzwords – and a mandatory 10 dollar per credit fee increase for the next 10-20 years. The vote failed by something like 1200 to 460 or something.
Apparently even self-professed outraged liberals will still vote with their wallets, as long as it’s THEIR wallets on the line.
Kinda interesting. If I don’t pass a psychological exam, I don’t get to stay in. But if I can’t decide what sex I am, the military can take me.
I know it’s not really the fault of the military, but if people want to do social experiments they can use prisoners. No wait – prisoners have “rights”.
Yes, but you and I are like activated torpedoes – straight, hot and normal – so we don’t get any ‘rights’.
Classic! Can I steal that?
Crap! I clicked the wrong button! MY BADDDD!
But, in answer to your question, TC, yes, you CAN steal it.
I borrow/beg/knick stuff from everyone else here all the time. I think all of us do.
Be my guest.
Wow. Ex-PH2 called me hot! Take that slackers!
Made my day…
<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
I’m also going to borrow that, Ex. Another classic.
Eventually the standard for enlisting will be to hold a mirror under the prospective recruit’s nose. If it fogs, they’re in.
Until then recruiters will be searching for an obese, trangendered dyslexic hermaphrodite Asian-African-American Pacific Islander with a hair lip and asthma just to insure they check all the ‘special snowflake’ boxes on the EO forms.
to paraphrase the Mexican banditos in Blazing Saddles “Standards? We don’t need no steenking standards.”
And THAT refers back to “Treasure of the Sierra Madres”, a B&W classic with Humphrey Bogart
Seems like they lack the ability to make a commitment one way or the other. I mean, if they can’t get a grip on the stiff reality of having a weiner, I doubt they have the kind of thrust necessary to penetrate very deeply into military service.
In the other hand, they could stroke the Islamic enemy the wrong way. ISIS fighters seem to have a fear of being killed by women, so a bunch of men prancing around the battle field in lace and lingerie would most certainly confuse the enemy.
^^^THIS^^^
Dave Hardon wins the internet today.
[see what I did?]
[yeah; not original — I know]
Did I mention my middle name is ‘Large’
Your nickname is “Collider”?
I heard you were down recently because you had a short.
Did you have a cousin named Dick Handler, by any chance?
No, but I tried to become Buddhist once and they called me Onehung Low.
You have become one with the dick joke, my friend.
http://www.agirlandherfed.com/1.486.html
I did not realize that it was Pun City today!
The ‘stiff reality of having a wiener’????
Could you at least post a spew alert next time?
Or -given the prelidiction of many Arab cultures- turn them on.
Hey, it’s gotta be better than a goat, right?
Huh. APFT would have been eaiser if I just said I was a chick in a dude’s body….never considered that one.
I LOVE the “other country” argument.
And other countries restrict freedom of speech, privacy, and such but i don’t see THOSE attributes being tried. I mean it works for them right?
Shit. i don’t think the military is in the business these days of building soldiers (and I use that term loosely because honestly…I dn’t want to list ALL the terms for serviceman…and I hate that word) from the ground up…I mean that’s why there are minimum entry requirements right? Sure we complain about them not actually being the standards of being a soldier but there are minimum standards.
one of those should be already being the right gender you think you are. besides if you are a dude who really thinks yourself as a chick then you should have the congnitive awareness to know how other women are going to feel seeing you in there as you are without the plumbing right. Courtesy afterall. You would expect it and do so return it.
Concur. I know a guy who really wanted to serve in the Marine Corps. He couldn’t get in because of an eye issue (I can’t remember exactly what issue at this point – colorblind, maybe?). His brother serves in the Army, his dad served in the Marine Corps – it was his dream from early on to serve – and he can’t. But the ever-lovable Pat can serve and we can all knock ourselves out trying to make sure the standards are re-written to make it possible?
This argument that they are just people wanting the chance to serve cuts no ice with me. There are a lot of people who just want the chance to serve who are in wheelchairs or getting radiation therapy or have severe asthma, etc. that will never get the chance through no fault of their own. Most of those fine Americans were also “born that way”. But the services are not doing double back flips to see how we can work out the infantry standards for blind recruits. There has to be a line – a minimum standard – that by definition will ensure that some people just are not qualified. If you can’t quantify your gender and sexual orientation with one word apiece, I think you have failed to meet the standard.
What if my dream was to become an NFL player? Are the standards going to be lowered so I can live my “dream”? No. Is it my God given right to be in the NFL? No. I have to work to meet the established standards if I want to be on a team. The standards are set so the team can win games. The military is no different. It has established standards so it can defend the nation and win wars. But yet, all of these social experimenters/everyone gets a trophy types want to change OUR proven standards.
Start with the NFL first and then come back to us.
No, I agree that the standard needs to be met. The guy I referenced above was rightly refused enlistment. My point is that the main contention of the transgender/alphabet soup crowd is that they were born this way and all they want is the chance to serve – so bend the rules and make it work. And the military services appear to be trying to do so. But there are many, many people who wanted to serve and couldn’t for one reason or another – no one is bending the rules for them. The requirements should not be changed or disregarded for anyone, regardless of plumbing owned or wished for.
This actually resonates for me; I’ve got moderate to profound hearing loss in both ears, which kept me out.
It’s entirely possible other things would have kept me out, but, you know, so be it – I looked into it despite knowing my hearing loss would probably be an issue because I was young, idealistic, and figured worst case scenario, I’d be able to fill noncombat roles such as deskwork or mechanic work just fine, and free someone else up to have their ears ruined some other way.
Knowing the long, long, LONG list of physical and psychological problems that go with gender reassignment surgery and so on? Hearing aids are way less money, and way less likely to lead to a complete breakdown while serving due to ‘an insufficiently nurturing environment’.
(Note, I’m not bitter about not being able to serve. Just means I toast all of y’all who did and do and will.)
I read about this yesterday. It seems to be more about those already in the military, some serving with the full knowledge of their commander and unit, including one who is the top performer for the unit.
There are supposedly around 15,000 transgendered people already serving, although how they know that, when they’re in the closet, I don’t know.
I’ve known two men who went through the procedure to become women. One was a medical researcher, married with grown children. It was an interesting 2 year process, certainly not to be taken lightly, and I think he was satisfied with the result. The other grew up with 4 brothers, was quite small physically, and is now a fairly attractive older woman. However, she is as unhappy now as before the surgery. Both men waited until about their 40s to go through with it and both knew from early childhood that they were in the wrong bodies. Gender is as much of a brain thing as it is a physical thing. I don’t know if either of them had long term health issues to deal with, other than taking HRT, which millions of women do as well.
A difficult situation for sure.
The good of the one outweighs the good of the many.
The military is a fucking free fall on common sense and leadership.
It’s not just the military. The whole freakin’ world has gone off the rails.
Its all that “change you can believe in”…
Frankly, Master Guns, the only change I can believe in is the change in my pockets.
Tru dat Ex-PH2.
How about lets try this. The Pentagon says NO! End of discussion. Just a big, fat, NO. Okay, don’t want to offend anyone, NO THANK YOU.
MGySgtRet. Wow what a novel idea. Just say fuckin’ NO.
I know, right?? Of course it would take some leadership with balls, you know, the thing that some of these transgendered folks see as the root of their problems.
In all seriousness, and I believe it has been mentioned earlier, but the military is NOT a social engineering club, or a club of any sort. All these left leaning Kumbaya singers, tree huggers and other assorted moron’s seem to think that they will civilize the military by loading it with a bunch of societies problems. I swear to God, they all need to be forced to look at the results of a good fire fight. The carnage, the damage, the utter inhumanity of it and realize that the military plays for keeps and all else is bullshit and window dressing.
As has been pointed out before, numerous times… Transgender comes with a whole lot more baggage that some dude wanting to have tits and a slit or a woman wanting to have an “addadicktome”. Okay, I get it that there really are people who truly feel that they were born with the wrong parts.
Issue number one though is that it comes with the addition of numerous other disqualifying Mental Health conditions. The overwhelming majority of Transgender persons have attempted suicide (disqual! no waiver). The majority of them have some form of mental illness such as Major Depression (Disqaul), Bi-Polar Disorder (Disqaul), etc…
Now, how about the actual finnancial cost? For males or females there is the countless hours of psychological counseling required before they can begin any gender reassignment. Then there is the hormone treatments, and the actual surgeries… for a guy it is a minimal of 8,000(since they pretty much redirect the penis into the groin area). Females it can be upards of 50,000.00 due to having to fabricate a functioning penis is apparently a bit more difficult. That does not include any of the other surgeries, such as breast implants, turning the adams apple, tightening the vocal chords, etc…
The fact that they comprise sucha small segment of the population as it is, that they overwhelmingly come with excessive mental health and physical issues that would otherwise disqualify them for military service this should be a no brainer. There should be no need for discussion. This social engineering has to end, now!! Perfumed Princes and a bunch of politicians who have never served a day in their lives making decisions on things they obviously do not understand.
Accidentally hit the report button. Sorry.
Agree 100%. Let’s not forget to mention that the vast majority will be deemed unfit for service and given 100% disability by the VA. Get the Service Surgeons General to report what their discharge rate for transgender, pangender, gender curious, two-spirit, and non-heteronormative service members is. Gender Identity crisis and PTSD (you know it’s gonna be part of every VA workup) will create a brand new, expensive burden for the VA.
You do not know just how close to the truth you are… did you know that the VA is already providing some “services” specific to Transgender treatment? Just counseling for now, but… Oh, and if it is a male to female, they are treated in the Womans Health Clinic.
I would really like to hear an explanation of how that therapy is for a “service connected” condition.
To be fair, I would venture to say that a large majority of treatment by veterans at the VA, is not service connected. Not just in regards to this subject.
I spent four years as a recruiter. On a daily basis I turned away people with asthma, ADD/ADHD, migraine headaches, allergies to wool or bee stings,and heart murmurs. I didn’t turn them a way because I didn’t like them, or they were bad people. And I’ll bet many of them could have performed well in many MOS/AFSC/Rate areas. But they all had pre-existing medical condition. The military has a long history of not accepting applicants with pre-exisiting medical conditions. Gender identity disorder is classified as a medical disorder by the ICD-10 CM[7] and DSM-5 (called gender dysphoria) Transgendered people want to be treated like everyone else…guess what? They are being treated like everyone else with a pre-existing medical condition.
This above! ^
Exactly. This has always been my argument, whether the potential recruit has a medical or mental condition which does not meet minimal entry standards. I just don’t care what that condition might be. We look for the most fit, most likely to be trainable, the most likely to succeed to enlist.
That is all. That is all it has ever been.
Well put. Hard to argue with logic like that.
How do you provide leadership to someone who can’t decide whether to scratch his balls or change a tampon?
And in some cases not have the ability to do either….
This shit has gotten way out of hand. It’s institutionalized insanity, powered by political correctness masquerading as nothing extraordinary really, just common sense (no pun intended, Common Sense.) I looked at that 15,000 transgender estimate. The actual number is 15,500 and purportedly reflects the estimated number of transgenders in the reserves, Guard, and AD. Where does this number, now oft repeated, come from? The answer is two people at the Williams Institute: Gary J. Gates and Jody L. Herman. (They are named in footnote #2 of the report—more about that later—relied upon by the Pentagon.) The Williams Institute is called a think tank of the UCLA School of Law. Its thinking however, is keenly focused on a singular issue: LGBTs. Here’s a link if you want to see for yourself. http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/ Okay, so these two, Gates and Herman took a look at transgenders in the military and published a writing last year. How did arrive at that (to me) large estimate? Well, there’s fancy math that a few of you will love, but the bottom line is that the number largely came from a 70-question survey (70!) directed at transsexuals and this was one of the questions: Have you ever been a member of the armed forces? The possible answer choices were yes, no, and “I was denied entry because I am transgender/gender non-conforming.”( What the hell was that third choice about if the survey sought to learn whether there was or was not military service?) Anyway, 93% of the respondents completed the survey online and the remainder did a pencil and paper form. There was no proof of service required and, amazingly enough, it appears that transgenders (esp those male at birth) are more patriotic than you, by comparative numbers, ever would have thought! It could not be that anyone lied, pushed an agenda by falsely marking the Yes box. Read it for yourself if you like. The link is below. This comment is quite long so I’ll do another regarding that Palm Report of Jocelyn Elders (yes, that Jocelyn Elders) and others which is key to the Pentagon’s… Read more »
That name rang a bell, that kind of thing bugs me until I find out why.
There was this Marine who called himself Jacklyn, was always trying to do things his way, I guess he thought he was special or something.
http://36.media.tumblr.com/c2ff12a221c6d46d4073414a5a6ba6cb/tumblr_n6s6bv5Vtv1roqv59o1_500.png
And what if that report was another of those studies with data adjusted to meet the need for – whatever, grant money, funding, etc. ?? What then? Are you and I, the taxpayers, supposed to pick up the tab for people who are this dysfunctional?
I keep coming up with Manning’s misfit and erratic behavior BEFORE he was arrested. As with stolen valor stuff, there is more to it than just a hormonal imbalance or a dysphoric ‘feeling’ of not being in the right body. The LiveScience link I posted above shows that the suicide rate is high for TGs.
There is more to it than just hormones and body hair and gonads.
Basic classwork in statistics: online surveys tend to be self-selecting, meaning that people with an interest in the topic are more likely to reply to them than people who have no interest.
Online surveys without some form of checks and balances, including written into the survey itself, are worth less than the paper they aren’t printed on.
I’ll take a closer look after I make some coffee, at the report, and put up a comment with my (admittedly limited) expertise – such as it is. (Anyone who is an actual expert can feel free to call me out on my mistakes. I’d welcome the education.)
Agreed. Online surveys tend to dramatically violate one of the basic requirements of any statistical study: make sure your sample accurately reflects the total sample space.
Why would the military even consider enlisting someone with a known mental disorder? I know that those in the five sided puzzle palace can lack common sense, but seriously….Why is this even an issue.
Why not let anyone and everyone in? The guy who thinks he’s a dog could always serve in the K9 Corps.
*****DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK*****
http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/84500/Gay-Army-Propaganda-Poster–84936.jpg
Thanks Dave. I’m headed to the garage for mind and eye bleach. 😀
Not me. I disregarded the Lemon Party warning. To this day, I can’t think about looking at dried fruit.
Looks like my brother during his Army days.
Actual note, he did serve in the mid-80s. Was married 3 different times. Has a total of 4 children. One day, he decided to come out and has been with the same partner for over 15 years.
Except for his stance on LGBT issues, he’s fairly conservative. His take on all this hoopla? Gay/lesbian is one thing, but transgender is a whole nother issue. They shouldn’t be allowed to serve, just because of the mental health issues.
Well, DH – that looks like an old-style USMC utility cover to me in that photo. So I don’t think that’s an Army uniform the “fine fellow” is wearing. (smile)
If anyone is interested the GAO did a report to investigate whether or not DoD at the behest of the White House violated the appropriations act when they used appropriated funds to transfer these five turds they traded for Bergdahl.
The short answer is yes, yes they did violate the appropriations act. The long answer is here: http://www.gao.gov/assets/670/665390.pdf
SORRY WRONG THREAD…dagnabbit…
How about this: Enlist / get commissioned as your biological sex. Serve as such. Save the chop-shop for after you have your DD-214 in hand.
Protip to the trannies: Saying you ‘feel like a woman inside’ is like saying you know what the color blue tastes like. Blue is not a taste and woman is not a feeling. I’ll admit that the Armed Forces should show more tolerance for the gender-nonconforming. Yet men are men and women are women, like it as not!
I heard the radical feminists argue that the only way to end sexism is to abolish all artificial gender roles. I’m not prepared to go THAT far, but I wonder if unisex uniforms (like what the USMC proposed under GEN Amos) would help or hurt.
as soon as all “artificial gender roles” like different scoring on PT tests is abolished, watch the feminists scream…
Aren’t the utilities camouflage clothing essentially gender neutral?
Navy women are already in pants/slacks when assigned to ships because skirts are completely impractical.
I like that. Test the same for all. One standard. Great Idea. Same uniforms for all. Want a fit Army, this is the way. Can’t cut the mustard, tough shit, whether you’re a man or woman. You don’t need separate accommodations.
What ever your sex you’re born is where you go, doesn’t matter the hardware. Not supposed to be screwing your buddies anyhow, discharge for not following the rules. This is easy, its all about discipline, right.
Gender Identity Disorder. I think the operative word there is “Disorder”. Why would the military want to knowingly enlist anyone with a diagnosed “disorder” of any kind? Especially an identity disorder. What if the Identity Disorder were say, “I have an Identity Disorder about the name I choose to answer to from day to day”? My psychiatrist and I call it “Recognition Identity Disorder”. Screw them all. There are certain things a person chooses in life or is in “disorder” about which just simply preclude them from even many normal, civilian occupations. Far worse by an order of magnitude, would be forcing this upon the military. The military has become the most popular, social experiment “petri dish”. The Pentagon has lost or surrendered many things in this Administration. It’s balls, its common sense, its care for the troops and now, the knowledge of history of what has created and maintained the finest military in the world. So, why screw around with success? Why throw a monkey wrench into well oiled, finely tuned and functioning machinery established through centuries of trial and error? We have arrived at an all volunteer force second to none in the world. So Obama, the Pentagon and all the LGT advocates out there, by all means, go right ahead and fuck it up beyond all recognition. Looking forward to the transgender, “I don’t really know myself”, contributions to the next combat endeavor. Christ on the ice and Mary in the penalty box! This is messed up! Even Christopher Reeve would not stand for this.
Okay, I’m calmer now. To those here who share my religious beliefs, in my post above I took our Lord’s name in vain (emptiness). I know this is meaningful only to me and those who share my beliefs. To everyone else, I ask just please bear with me a moment, please. I offer no excuse and the next sentence is not intended to be one. But between the fogginess of pain medicine and the effect of “pump head” making the fuse on my anger grenade, so short it goes off in my hand…every time, I brought offense to myself and others. Please forgive me.
You’re forgiven. In addition, we promise to tell you if you offend us.
And just FYI — if you really don’t like a comment you posted and it worries you, get in touch with Jonn and ask him to pull it. I’ve done that myself once or twice.
Pinto Nag…Thank you very much and good advice. I will heed it. I just hate sending Jonn yet another email to read and another detail to take care of. He’s busy enough as it is. Again, thank you.
Sparks, I hope the rant helped. 🙂
The only (weak) reason I can think of is that homosexuality used to be considered a disorder as well. So -according to prog thinking- since being gay used to be a disorder and is now a lifestyle choice, we can also magically turn GID into a lifestyle choice as well. Easy-peasy as a unicorn farting Skittles.
Wow. And I thought a bunch of privates who actually know if they’re men or women were a pain in the ass.
Also, my spidey senses tell me there will be a stampede for the female line come APFT and weigh-in day.
We have the best military in the world the way it exists today, so what about this issue would possibly improve their ability to kill large numbers of the enemy and destroy their stuff?
It’s not about improving our ability to kill the enemy. After all, we have people like Hillary saying we need to “empathize” with them.
What it is about is forcing a fake standard of equality no matter what. If some people get killed, they were just the eggs needed for a social justice omelet. And as others have rightly pointed out, people like this view the military as a jobs program with neat clothes.
Forgot to add this:
I recall hearing that a whole bunch of gay people were getting held back from joining the service because of DADT. Don’t recall hearing about a huge wave of them hitting the Recruiter offices after it went away.
Nope. You’re not going to have a stampede from the transgender folks, either. Which will probably be the military’s saving grace.
Oh, but the Gates and Herman report that I described at length above anticipated that tens of thousands of DADT-excluded persons would enlist.
Before or after we get the unicorns?
Too late.
http://fobequestria.com/
Damn it.
Part II
You might remember Jocelyn Elders, the surgeon general. She was booted for her big mouth and stupid ideas, though it wasn’t put quite that way by the White House. She thought that teaching young children to…um…go blind was a great idea. She also thought that legalizing certain drugs was smart. Her son no doubt agreed. He got 10 years for selling cocaine. Well, this is one of the brains behind the Palm Center’s Report of the Transgender Military Service Commission. Another is retired Rear (in more ways than title) Admiral Steinman. The report’s bio says (and I can’t guess why, can you?) “RADM Alan M. Steinman is the most senior military officer to self-identify as gay after his retirement […] RADM Steinman lives with his seven-year-old adopted son and his husband in Olympia, WA.” I’m guessing that “his husband” refers to Steinman’s and not the boy’s, but I can’t say for certain nowadays. Here’s the link to the report:
http://www.palmcenter.org/files/Transgender%20Military%20Service%20Report_0.pdf
Shouldn’t that be “Reared” vice “Rear”, 2/17 Air Cav? (smile)
Gosh, the unfairness of this can just get you all choked up, can’t it? It’s so un-diversified.
Personally, I plan to start a non-profit supporting the idea that Golden Retrievers should be allowed to run for public office. There are rumors of studies from unnamed sources that suggest an estimated 37 percent of Golden Retrievers are at least as intelligent as Nancy Pelosi.
And why should a little thing like species stand in the way?
“Just because male Goldens like to lift their leg on every fire hydrant is no cause to reject them as potential members of our more powerful committees,” said one Congressional staffer on deep background.
You said that heavy on the sarcasm, but there are several very serious animal-rights movements afoot that would give animals civil rights under the law equal to that of humans. They haven’t gained much traction — yet. Give it time, and you’ll end up having to treat Fido like your third child.
In OR, it’s apparently progressed a bit farther than that, PN:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/oregon-animals-now-have-some-basic-rights-formerly-reserved-humans-180952475/?no-ist
That looks more like animal abuse laws to me. This is closer to what I meant to indicate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_ape_personhood
Why would we treat the dog worse than she is treated already? I’d get thrown out before the dog would… and don’t even get me started on the cats.
Just to throw fuel on the fire, look up the current term “furries”… wait till THEY want in.
Cat’s would make perfect Yeomen. Sit on their ass, getting in the way when there’s real work to do, and generally taking up space.
Well, let’s talk about specieshood.
There is more than one intelligent species on this planet. Birds, for instance, have highly developed residual memory. I can vouch for that. I have pictures of them on my front steps, 2 years running. It’s quite well-known that corvids such as ravens and crows are at least as smart as we are and are adept at playing practical jokes on humans. They also like to steal stuff.
Dolphins have larger brains than humans, probably because a large portion is devoted to the use of sound as biocomm and underwater navigation, but they like to play with things like ring bubbles, pull jokes on each other, and they have a distinct language which is slowly being decoded. This doesn’t stop the Japanese from eating them.
The only real difference between domestic cats and dogs is that dogs are more pack oriented than cats. Otherwise, both species know exactly how to ingratiate themselves with us, and can tell when someone is on the way home, as well as finding their way home months to years after they were lost.
Elephants have lo-o-ong memories, including knowing whose bones are still lying on the ground long after someone in the herd died. They also like to play practical jokes.
Unfortunately, we humans tend to think we’re the top of the brainiac ladder – not true – which begs the question: when we get out in space and find other species, are we going to assume they’re stupid critters, just because they don’t wear designer clothing and use flush toilets? That’s how Native Americans and Australian aborigines were treated, with no respect for their tribal history and customs.
So who is the stupid there?
This is going to sound bigoted, Ex, but you’ll notice I singled out a specific breed. The thought being that Golden Retrievers and German Shepherds can run for Congress, but Poodles and Chihuahuas allowed no higher than city council. Afghan Hounds, because they’re so fabulous, would be elected automatically, but only in San Francisco and New York.
I mean, you have to draw the line somewhere…
Well, the golden’s would get the Democrat vote since they are kind of a yellow dog.
“Humans think they are smarter than dolphins because we build cars and buildings and start wars etc., and all that dolphins do is swim in the water, eat fish and play around. Dolphins believe that they are smarter for exactly the same reasons”
– Douglas Adams
There is an agenda. It is to dismantle traditional American institutions and to turn American culture, including its collective values and traditions, upside down and inside out. This is being done in many ways, from gay marriage to hate crimes and from approved/disapproved pc language to this transgender idiocy. I was schooled before the DOE and its indoctrination/re-education camps, known as public schools. It’s easier for me to reject all of this bullshit. And reject it I do.
^^^^^ THIS!! ^^^^^^
Pre- existing conditions like this should be a bar to entry in the military. Unstable mental health conditions like transgender disease, and the other sexual deviations from normal. No need to worry making accommodations… Muslims put to death everyone but straight normal relations, and anyone not muslim. Problem solved. (Y) sarc.
Those of you who are hoping that the mental illness issue is this brainstorm’s downfall will be disappointed. The Palm Center report (a/k/a Elders and Steinman white paper) points out that gender non-conformity is no longer regarded as a mental illness by the American Psychiatric Association. The report notes that the military has not updated its regs to reflect this “science.” So, there you go. If the reg isn’t being changed today, it soon will be. What I believe they are struggling to work out are the practical aspects of open transgenders in the military (e.g., which bathroom do they use.) Otherwise, it’s a done deal, as I see it. Source: p. 3, Executive Summary, para 3.
Does that report take into account the recorded instances of men pretending to be TG or even going drag, going into the women’s locker rooms at gyms for the sole purpose of sexual assault?
I think not.
I can only say that they had better not show up in my head or shower or toilet stall, because I will use the fire extinguisher on them. I’m a very patient person, but I do have my limits, and I don’t give a crap who knows it.
“There also are questions about whether the military would conduct or pay for the medical treatment and costs associated with any gender transition, ”
THIS, to me, is the biggest question, with the biggest costs. ANd this includes not only the hard medical side of the house, but also the “soft and fuzzy” medical side, the psychiatric and psychological side of the house. When you get that figured out within yourself, THEN come back and talk to me.
And once a military member goes down the road of gender reassignment, with all of its attendant counseling and surgery and additional treatments, how much is that person going to actually contribute to the mission? Will they ever be able to deploy? Or serve in a meaningful capacity at all? Or will the military just become a free ride for those seeking the medical bennies associated with military service? Pandora’s box is being pried open.
Shit, you think the VA is a goddamn funhouse now, wait until they become responsible of the associated care for the transgendered community….good times….
You are being rational again. You must stop that if ever you are to grasp the meaning and purpose behind all of this bullshit. It never was–and never will be–about rendering service to the country. It’s about THE AGENDA.
“Jane joined the army to become GI Bill” *snicker*
No longer will “reassignment” mean change of duty stations… but a new tool to draw enlistees.
Can’t have ADD.
Can want to chop your wee wee off.
Stay classy, DoD.
++1000.
Guess it’s a good thing they didn’t have ADD when I signed up because I have been told by no less that four professors of mine that I am probably ADD.
Think it had something to do with working on a drawing, taking notes and reading a book all at the same time. Yeah, I was an A student too.
ok
Enigma’s gender test.
Tie one hand behind back
Put a five gallon bucket three feet in front of test subject.
Have them pee in said bucket with out moving their legs.
Did they get any piss in the bucket
If yes male
If no Female
If no: me in the middle of the night when I don’t want to wake up too much haha
There are a lot of medical and mental health conditions that prevent military service. While it is not fair to the individual who theoretically could have performed in certain rolls in the military is is necessary for the overall public good.
I do not see why gender identity disorder would not be one of them. It seems to me that there would need to be a huge change in the infrastructure of the military in order to accomodate a small percentage of potential recruits who could serve their country in other capacities.
I think those opposing gay serving in the military are wrong. It requires little or no adjustment to the infrastructure to accomodate their service. But I think the concerns with respect to making proper accomodations for gender identity disorder is valid. And those who wish to preclude their service have grounds to do so.
However, we do need to have another means for young high school graduates to serve our country. We should start another public service departments for volunteers. They get job training and a adequate wage for a service commitment like the military. One branch specializes in domestic public service and the other in foreign service.
Ok, with coffee brewing, I’m digging a little bit into this report on the survey etc by the Williams Institute. The details state that the actual survey was 70 questions, but they do not include in their report a copy of the complete survey, nor a link to it. They state the survey was released both online and in print through more than 900 organizations, as well as online and on listservs; again, no direct statement of what organizations, nor what online groups, etc. What they DO state (although you have to dig through the footnotes to draw these pieces together) is that this was published by, and hence it is likely that this was sponsored by and put together by, the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and National Center for Transgender Equality. (In other words, NOT a group with no axe to grind on this subject.) The survey was run for over 6 months and only managed, with this kind of distribution, to field 6,546 valid responses – but they don’t discuss in this summary what the criteria for validity were. They are saying that paper responses corresponded with lower reported incomes, and propose the correlation that – because the majority of responses were on the internet – this led to a lower proportion of responses being from past or present serving members of the military. They use this reasoning as a basis to ‘slightly’ adjust their numbers of likely transgender individuals in the military (past or present). They then go on to use other rationalizations to further adjust their proposed military membership in the choose-your-own-adgender club: more MTF than FTM by a 60% to 40% ratio, more men join the military than women, ergo there must be more MTF and more transgender individuals in the military than anybody thinks. They use some of the notation you expect to see in statistics, but they do NOT include the actual margin of error numbers, nor in their nifty sigma equation do they give specifics as to how their average is weighted; they just state that it’s weighted. ALL of… Read more »
So, aside from my issues with due diligence and factual reporting in what’s written up to LOOK like a legit whitepaper, I want to make a couple of comments on this (which I suspect some of y’all may already have, but eh, I’m wordy today, enjoy it while it lasts – next week it’s back to the school grind on top of the farm grind for me!). One is that with self-reporting being done as to whether people are members of the military or not – well, heck, the whole reason this site exists is because a whole lot of people, many of whom if not all of whom have serious mental issues, like to claim they’re something they’re not. So that knocks a hole in the bottom of the boat. There’s also the fact that if they’re unhappy enough with their identities to pretend they’re something they’re not, gender disassociation is another way of expressing that – ‘oh, I’m so unhappy, my weewee/boobs/whatever must be the real cause of my unhappiness’. There’s ALSO that right now? Gender disassociation is quite frankly the trendy cool ‘problem’ to have. Twenty years ago online, everybody was battling depression, many of them with a sideline in MPD. (MPD never seems to truly go out of fashion with online crazies, but it’s usually an add-on to whatever else.) Ten years ago it was more in line with bipolar. Now it’s gender-related. With the vast majority of respondents being people who have the time and inclination to take a 70 question survey about transgender identity issues coming from ONLINE, I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that a LOT of these respondents are young, bored, and don’t have something better to do – which often goes hand in hand with mental illness, real or imagined. I don’t want to trivialize mental illness, but at the same time, without an actual REAL paper with REAL data being put online, I would be very skeptical of this paper’s veracity. Which y’all already know, of course, but hey, I had fifteen minutes to kill, and… Read more »
First, let me say congratulations for wading through the report.
Second, let me add that pointing out adjustments in the data, etc., make the report suspect, as in adjusting data to suit the needs of the reporting body.
Third, the ‘axe to grind’, or predisposition of the argument toward a specific agenda, crossed my mind when this first began showing up.
Fourth, those who are the driving force behind this have failed to take into consideration the consequences of forcing this issue into existence. This can have disastrous consequences, especially when they are not on the receiving end of it, i.e., the people who have to live with a decision from higher-ups.
I absolutely agree with you, Ex-PH2; the law of unintended consequences would totally come into play here. You’re quite right about the higher prevalence of suicide and attempted suicide among this group. Of course, the NTSD and like groups are trying to push for greater acceptance in order to reduce said suicides (among other things); I believe they’re putting the cart before the horse. That’s only one of my many criticisms though.
There are so many other issues with it that I’d pretty much be spamming the board to try and get into ’em all. But people who have known dysphorias should not be in high-pressure positions where other people have to rely on them. Double that with lives on the line. And since you can’t know who is going to prove to be ‘stable’ and who isn’t, taking on a group of people whose stability has to be carefully monitored and adjusted with prescription medication and therapy is counter to achieving the goals of any military or paramilitary group.
This would totally get me strung up from a flagpole on my college campus, but with any luck, I’ll be done with my degree in a little over a year. 😛
Your observations about the report and mine jibe. I only wish that some media members would STOP before writing “estimated 15000 transgenders in US military” and actually look at the report’s data, assumptions, data reliability, and conclusions. But that takes time and work. The purveyors of bullshit can sit back and read their skewed crapola being broadcast and repeated worldwide, ad nauseum. When repeated and published often enough, the bullshit becomes truth. To me, this particular mess is worse than the highly dubious mantra of tens of thousands of military sexual assaults annually.
2/17 Air Cav: part of the problem is how few people actually get taught how to read statistics and science papers. We’re led to take a lot on faith, and without that background to know what to look for, what should and should not be there, etc…
It’s endemic and it allows for media and special interest groups to shape not only public opinion but policy under the guise of legitimacy. But it’s as falsified and stolen a legitimacy as the idiots and clowns pretending to be military when they’re not, and hurts legitimate research because it gets lumped into the same category as all the false crap.
Okay, off my hobby horse, but it’s a sad fact that statistics is not required in most academic courses of studies these days. It’s an elective.
I know I’m preaching to the chior here, but in my humble opinion people who try to enlist with gender identity issues should be disqualified because they will invariably need lots of mental health asistance and surgery if they are allowed to enlist and seek gender reassignment.
Kids who suffer from bi-polar disorder or need surgery to correct torn ACLs from high school football arent allowed in. The primary reason is that you are going to get someone who is likely to fail training or who will spend their entire enlistment on light duty or in a medical/mental facilty.