Chandler tells NCOs “Roll your sleeves up”
Kevin sent us a link this morning in Stars & Stripes to an ass chewing cloaked in pep talk terms that Sergeant Major of the Army Raymond F. Chandler III gave to some NCOs in Europe the other day in which he told them that they need to roll up their sleeves and get back to the work of being NCOs. Because, for some reason, they weren’t able to be NCOs what with a war going on and all. I wonder who’s been doing all of the NCO stuff for the last ten years. Must have been the officers, huh?
In an interview after his talk to the NCOs, Chandler said the Army would also be checking its databases to flag soldiers with repeated misconduct, including nearly 5,000 soldiers who committed multiple felonies while on active duty.
That could occur, he said “because as an Army we had some breakdowns in accountability for our soldiers.”
He elaborated on his post-Vietnam War comparison, saying the similarities included coming out of a long, protracted war and reducing size, at the same time that alcohol and drug abuse and other at-risk behaviors had increased.
I find it hard to believe that there are 5000 convicted felons not in jail still leading troops. I mean a felony is an imprisonable offense, isn’t it? And disparaging the 1975 Army is pretty weak. Yeah, I knew some NCOs who abused drugs in those years, but none of them had been to Vietnam. The Vietnam veterans who were left after the war were nothing but professional and they did the heavy lifting when it came to building up the Army after the war. Chandler’s misrepresentation of those years only highlights the fact that he wasn’t around, in fact, he joined in 1981, so he was in 7th grade in 1975. So he’s working from stories he heard once.
As evidence, Chandler, whose last assignment was commandant of the Army Sergeants Major Academy, said that half the sergeants enrolled in drill sergeant school or recruiter school “either don’t show up or can’t pass the PT (physical fitness) test.”
I wasn’t in the last wars, but I don’t think I’d show up for drill sergeant school if I was drafted either. Nothing against those of you who sacrificed part of your career to perform that important function, but I never liked the idea of being a drill sergeant or go through the epitome of garrison duty for however long the school is. I never even considered being a drill sergeant. Not being able to pass the PT test? There’s no excuse for that. Unless these guys are showing up for drill school right off a deployment, which I suspect might be the case. It took me months to get back to my PT score after six months in Desert Storm, so I can sympathize. But apparently the Smadge is more concerned with statistics than the reality.
Chandler also criticized highly visible and sometimes offensive tattoos – and sergeants for not counseling their troops against getting such tattoos.
That I go along with, sort of. I don’t have any tattoos, though. I’m too pretty to have to add decorations. And I’ve never been able to think of something I’d want permanently displayed on my perfect body. But to blame NCOs for their troops getting tattoos is probably a bit naive.
I got chewed out by my battalion commander once because one of my squad leaders, who was on crutches went downtown, got drunk and got in a fight and beat the snot out of someone with his crutch. Somehow, it was my fault. So I took corrective action by patrolling the “Iron Triangle” at 2am and loading my troops in my van and taking them back to the barracks – more often than not resulting in more unnecessary violence on the street. I’m not sure if that was a good idea now, but it illustrates how much influence an NCO can have on his subordinates. They knew I was coming around at oh-dark-thirty and they were still out there, and still misbehaving. You can tell a private to not get a tattoo (and “offensive” is subject to discussion), but it certainly won’t stop them if they think they’re being clever.
I’ll admit that I don’t like sergeant majors (no, you pseudo-English majors, it’s not sergeants major), never have. It seemed to me that a lot of good First Sergeants went to the Sergeant Major Academy and had their brains sucked out and came back only with vision that could spot a cigarette butt on the ground from miles away. If Chandler wants to clean out the ranks, get rid of every E-9 who refuses a command position, and every E-8 who won’t take a company. That’s where the problem begins.
ADDED: I was awarded 2 Article 15s during my years, one as an E-3 and another as an E-6, neither would have been an offense as a civilian and neither impacted my career significantly.
Category: Military issues
Sounds a lot like the Khaki Mafia in the Navy.
And yeah, this is more parroting of the party line, which is basically saying, “We’re getting smaller, so suck it up or you’ll find your ass on the street.”
Frankly, I don’t know what the incentive to go to 20 is these days, but it sure as hell ain’t enough. If my kid ever joins the service, I’m telling him to do ONE hitch and bail.
Then again, maybe that’s exactly what the current administration wants.
What if they had a war and garrison broke out? Look, I made it to E7 and on some occasions mingled with the E9’s, what with being in that whole Top 3 club and all, but like you I often wondered what the hell happened to them at sergeant majors academy. Probably why I never made it any higher.
I got so tired of being held to an unrealistic standard of accountability for my Soldiers. I’m not out partying with them on the weekend, so how can I be responsible for their alcohol fueled instances of dumbassery?
I’ve had the same perspective of USASMA as others do. I remain satisfied that I retired below that grade.
Just a Grunt: that’s already happened. I know of at least one command in SWA that was requiring it’s folks forward-deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan to take the APFT while forward-deployed to those areas, as well as enforcing the weight control program during deployment. And I know of at least one individual who was denied an EOT award after serving a year in Afghanistan for exactly that reason.
“I find it hard to believe that there are 5000 convicted felons not in jail still leading troops.”
I think you may have misinterpreted his comment, although it’s hard to say since they didn’t directly quote him. I don’t think he meant that those 5k soldiers with multiple felons were NCOs leading troops. I took the statement to mean that the fact that troops are committing felonies is an indictment of the leadership skills of those felons’ NCOs.
That said, every community has its share of criminals, and no amount of leadership is going to straighten out the worst of them. I’d have to guess that those felons did something bad enough to earn a discharge before they did whatever they did that got them convicted. Does the NCO corps really have the final say in whether the Army should retain the criminally inclined?
Chandler is an ass. There were problems in the 70’s but I worked for some great leaders and served in ready units in both Germany and the ROK. We were good enough to deter the Soviets, North Koreans, et al, and had great fun tearing down the tree in the DMZ when provoked. The only thing that made us better in the 80’s were the resources to recruit better troops, buy better equipment, and conduct better training. Now politicos are taking those resources back (again) and Chandler is spewing BS.
In all my time in, I never met a Sergeant Major I could truly respect.
I’m sure there must have been a couple out there worthy of it, but I never crossed paths with them.
Before I got out, I was in charge of an HHC Supply Section. I had four minions, but only two were worth the cost of their uniforms. The other two could have been confused with coffee tables in the supply room for the number of times I had to drop them.
When I went to my State BNCOC (yeah, that was ate up, too), I missed three months of drills. When I got back… dear Lord in heaven. My one E-4 who was high speed was coming in on time daily, when she was only supposed to be in every other day. The other Shammer was coming once or twice a week and did little to no work. The Privates were constantly at each others throats (the low speed accusing my high speed of sucking up, the high speed accusing the low speed of drag-assing).
My first drill back at the unit, I was called into my Tops office and read the riot act. It took me a week to get the supply and arms room back into shape. However, my 1SG blamed me for the cluster fuck in the first place. He went so far as to give me a flipping Counseling Statement over the three months worth of incidents.
In all, the events got one E-4 dropped to PFC and a PFC bumped up to SPC… can you guess which? However, even my admin NCO didn’t agree with what happened. Somehow, the Counseling Statement was conveniently lost somewhere in the circulation (ignore the sound of the shredder, it acts up every now and then).
However, saying that the discipline of the troops when they are not under the direct control of the chain of command is the responsibility of the chain of command is just ludicrous. Hell, the dipshit Shammer ended up getting his fours back on deployment, but then lost it all when he beat the snot out of a 2LT for some stupid reason. I wonder if I’ll be blamed for that too, even though I got out a year before the deployment.
“It seemed to me that a lot of good First Sergeants went to the Sergeant Major Academy and had their brains sucked out and came back only with vision that could spot a cigarette butt on the ground from miles away.” —–I felt the same way about Company Grade Officers one they became a Field Grade Officer. Once they got out of the Company level it seems to have a strange affect on them.
He is not popular at all, he is more concerned with what looks pretty rather than what works. Not a lot of people are looking forward to the garrison army. Shinseki and then this guy…tankers aren’t gettin very high marks in my book. (entirely in jest OT)
Hey, at least they aren’t going to make you blow into a tube.
I was on the final rotation for OIF, the BC MANDATED PT Tests every month the whole time we were in country, and I was one of the senior graders, the CSM (who was really a SGM, and frocked HIMSELF) didn’t do shit to protect the enlisted, leaving it to the E-7’s and below to provide top cover and keep the “kids” out of trouble, which detracted from our mission. It got so bad, that the BC actually got fired by the 1st AD Commander and told to leave the theater!! But I digress, my current CSM is the exception to the kool aid drinking at the SGM Academy, he is still the same NCO he was 10 years ago, when I first enlisted. He didn’t drink the Academy kool aid.
“nearly 5,000 soldiers who committed multiple felonies while on active duty”
Maybe I’m naive, but that sounds like BS. I would be surprised if 5,000 soldiers have been convicted of not wearing their reflective belt (a truly serious offense).
I also can’t believe that it would be an NCO’s decision to allow said multiple felons to stay in the Army.
@ #9
Funny you bring that up.
I can remember a good number of quality 1LTs that came back from the command and staff schools as brain dead automatons.
A group of us in our unit back in the late 90s actually talked our 1LT into resigning his commission on the basis that he was too valuable a resource to be reprogrammed at the war college.
He was an E6 prior to OCS. He transitioned back down to E6 then submitted a packet for the Warrant Officer program. He retired a couple years ago as a CWO2. Great Guy.
@ #11
Sounds like they are, just not the one the Navy is blowin. lol
The Navy has institutionalized the Senior Enlisted Continiation Board. The board consists of seasoned Fleet, Force, and Command Master Chiefs. Each year the electronic service records of all E-7 through E-9 with more than 19 years are reviewed. All Chiefs regardless of status (active and reserve) must be boarded to determine if they are suitable for Continuation. Below info is straight from the must recent NAVADMIN Message. Essentially, if you screw up and the board members don’t like what you they see (in accordance with the precept) … YOUR GONE. Perhaps the US Army should use the US Navy board method as the US Navy promotion and selection board method is touted as the best. 5. THIS IS A PERFORMANCE-BASED BOARD. CONSISTENT WITH LONGSTANDING PERSONNEL POLICY, THE PROCEDURES FOR THE CONTINUATION BOARD WILL, TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PRACTICABLE, PARALLEL THOSE FOR BOARDS CONVENED FOR OFFICERS PURSUANT TO REFS C AND D. THE POSITIVE ATTRIBUTES SUMMARIZED IN PARAGRAPHS A THROUGH C BELOW ARE CONSISTENT WITH THE CHIEF’S MISSION, VISION AND GUIDING PRINCIPLES, AND ARE DESCRIPTIVE OF THE SENIOR ENLISTED LEADERS WHO ARE THE BEST AND MOST FULLY QUALIFIED TO BE SELECTED FOR CONTINUATION. A. THE NAVY REQUIRES MASTER CHIEF PETTY OFFICERS (MCPO), SENIOR CHIEF PETTY OFFICERS (SCPO) AND CHIEF PETTY OFFICERS (CPO) TO DEVELOP SAILORS AND ENFORCE STANDARDS WHILE CONDUCTING THEMSELVES IN A CONSISTENTLY PROFESSIONAL AND ETHICAL MANNER. B. THE NAVY BENEFITS WHEN SENIOR ENLISTED LEADERSHIP POSSESSES A BROAD SPECTRUM OF EXPERIENCE ON DIVERSE PLATFORMS OR WARFARE COMMUNITIES WHILE MEETING THE OPERATIONAL/NON-OPERATIONAL (SEA-SHORE/CONTINENTAL UNITED STATES-OUTSIDE THE CONTINENTAL UNITED STATES)ROTATIONAL REQUIREMENTS EXPECTED OF THEIR RATE AND PAY GRADE, AND COMPONENT. C. THOSE MCPOS, SCPOS AND CPOS WHO DEMONSTRATE THE ABILITY TO GENERATE POSITIVE RESULTS AND COMMAND SUCCESS THROUGH TEAM AND PERSONAL PERFORMANCE SET THE EXAMPLE FOR OTHERS TO FOLLOW. ADDITIONAL CONSIDERATION WILL BE GIVEN TO THEIR ABILITY TO PRODUCE AND FOSTER WELL-TRAINED ENLISTED AND OFFICER TEAMS WHILE PROVIDING SOUND PROACTIVE SOLUTIONS LINKED TO COMMAND AND NAVY MISSION ACCOMPLISHMENTS. D. DOCUMENTED MISCONDUCT AND SUBSTANDARD OR MARGINAL PERFORMANCE WILL BE THE PRIMARY REASONS FOR WHICH BOARD-ELIGIBLE SAILORS ARE NOT CONTINUED. THE FOCUS WILL BE… Read more »
Master Chief: if I recall correctly, the Army’s had a similar system in place for at least the past several years (if not longer). I’m pretty sure each centralized enlisted promotion board (E7 and above) now also considers files for show cause for Quality Management Program (QMP) separations and retirements. Ditto on the officer side – files are flagged by central boards for “show cause” if the board finds them bad enough.
It’s not necessarily an annual consideration, but it does provide a mechanism for weeding out that small group of dipsticks that manage to make it to E7 and/or get a commission/warrant.
I think my first CSM was quite possibly senile….the guy did nothing to protect or help any soldiers….except to try to get an unearned masters degree on the erb of our chaplains assistant who he might have been “close friends” with….during OIF I this guy won a silver star with valor for an engagement that ended up with someone else getting a MOH…he was a 1sg then….his major accomplishment while we were there for OIF 7….opening up a wood shop in the BN HQ and building shelves and benches….and a private range for himself…cuz he brought a BOW DOWNRANGE?!!?!? I think they gave that guy a lobotomy at the Sergeant Majors Academy
Another sidewalk soldier that has forgot the “break things and kill people” mission.
Looks like he has been riding the pine for a while.
“…United States Army Garrison Fort Leavenworth, KS and the United States Army Armor School CSM. Chandler was assigned as the United States Army Sergeants Major Academy CSM in December 2007.”
Maybe he and Eric the Hat can come up with some new headgear to signify the new streamlined Army.
Like a helmet liner with the flaps hanging down…
@18 The Navy as of last March did not flag records during routine promotion boards. Flagging records throughout the service should be done. However, a complete review of a record must always be done to ensure anyone not recommended for continuation recieves due process. You are correct the percentage of stipstick is quite low.
@21- and goggles. Gotta have that eye-pro. Winter uniform includes a scarf.
In my 20 + years, I never could figure out what purpose a Sergeant Major served. They usually were following some high ranking officer around with their nose up their ass…and tended to be abusive and never really had a clue as to what was going on. Like the assholes we had in Bosnai and Iraq. They just looked for some way to fuck with the troops…and I never ever heard them say even once: “Good job.” or: “Sorry you lost your driver on that convoay, can I do anything to help?”
@21 and 23, it can’t be called a scarf, because they will probably steal the Ascot from the OCS folks and make that standard ASU issue… And don’t forget your fucking PT Belt!!! Can’t have the bad guys not knowing where we are on our FOBs now!
Bout a 70/30 split with the bad guys winning. Our BDE CSM has survived two 15-6s and drove off the two quality SGMs. I was fortunate that my SGM was a 3rd Batt Ranger who never drank the koolaid. Consequently he has spent nine years as an ops SGM. But damn, he makes shit happen. Full of common sense, shares every hardship with the boys, and puts his nuts on the chopping block at least weekly to stop the idiocy from on high.
My last station was at Bliss and that USASMA facility parking lot was empty by lunch time. On Fridays, forget it. So how do they cram so much shitty leadership in so little time?
And a last rant about CSMs wanting to be commanders with these fucking “change of responsibility” ceremonies. They don’t command shit.
Keep reinventing the wheel. Roll up your sleeves… and show off your tattoos? Any officer or senior NCO worth a fuck cares about three things: Soldier’s pay, soldier’s promotion, soldier’s training. Roll up your sleeves? What a muldoon.
Would one of you august gentlemen please explain to me what the hell has happened to the US military? The one where GIs were allowed to be GIs? The one where NCOs were allowed to be NCOs. The one where a GI that screwed up was reamed by his squad leader and/or platoon Sgt? The one where if the GI screwed bad enough he wound up in the brig? The one where once a service member had graduated from recruit training he/she was trusted to do the right thing? Sheesh!
We had one “manditory” pt test in country. My command didn’t think the tests were that important being an engineer company running daily missions. Our 1sgt didn’t like the garrison attitude and he generally protected us from the stupidity. I guess when some people are more concerned with bullet points than troops they will do stupid things.
Roll up your sleeves seems to be the 2012 version of spread your ass cheeks.
YY,
Unfortunately, as the country goes, so goes the military.
@JPJ, unfortunately for us, we had Garrison leadership in a combat zone, we had PT test after PT test, because there were Soldiers, surprise surprise, that couldn’t pass a PT Test a month for 10 months! ANd wtf is this roll the sleeves up stuff, does that mean its authorized again?
Yat Yat see guys like SMA chandler. Some NCOs are too afraid to let their guys screw up. They feel the need to hold their hands 24/7 and rather than train and allow soldiers to screw up then drop the hammer they have to treat them like babies. Hell their was this one NCO I was talking to on FB who was saying he snooped his troops accounts to find things to bust them on. I just thought for real? That is your life? Now we have SMA jackwagon wanting to put people out because of “offensive” tattoos. What the hell does that mean? Who judges what is offensive? What constitutes a sleeve? I know he didn’t say he wants them out of the army, but he doesn’t think people should have them. The next SMA needs to be a long tabber just to shake things up a bit.
JPJ, Thanks! I just don’t get it. We let our “boots” know the rules and sent them on their way. If they could “hack” they were on their way to being Marines. If they couldn’t, tough $h!t, you were on your way out. Back in the day, tattoos were frowned upon but then they weren’t these sleeves that guys n gals are getting these days. Different day, different age.
@#28 Yat Yas – To answer your question: Once there was a General Order. It was called GO #1, and It was good…
You’re seriously old school John. When I was a young Private, they used to say you had to have a Company Grade to make Buck Sergeant and a Field Grade to make SFC.
Master Chief: dunno about Navy boards, but Army centralized boards (promo to E7 and above) have access to and generally review literally everything in the file that isn’t in the Restricted section (very little ends up there – if I recall correctly, one example is a successful eval appeal). In practice, this means the board has access to virtually all commendatory, performance (e.g., evals), and disciplinary information on file about the soldier.
Yes, it’s a damned quick review. But bad stuff in a file virtually never gets missed by the board.
Both systems will work if applied properly. The Navy method has the advantage of being annual, but if I understand correctly is only applied to those with 19+ years service. The Army reviews starts earlier in the career, but doesn’t review every file annually (though all officers and all soldiers who make it to E7 consideration do get screened).