Atheist chaplains?
I don’t usually discuss religion here, mainly because I don’t understand much about it, and my own relationship with my Creator is unnecessarily complex so who am I to question other people’s beliefs? But NotSoOldMarine sent us this link to the NY Times about atheists wanting a chaplain in the military;
Strange as it sounds, groups representing atheists and secular humanists are pushing for the appointment of one of their own to the chaplaincy, hoping to give voice to what they say is a large — and largely underground — population of nonbelievers in the military.
“Humanism fills the same role for atheists that Christianity does for Christians and Judaism does for Jews,” Mr. Torpy said in an interview. “It answers questions of ultimate concern; it directs our values.”
“You’re not a faith group; you’re a lack-of-faith group,” First Lt. Samantha Nicoll, an active atheist at Fort Bragg, recalled a chaplain friend’s saying about the idea.
I don’t know how an actual atheist chaplain would be trained by his or her group in order to prove credentials to minister to soldiers, since the military is non-denominational and an atheist chaplain would be required to minister to soldiers of all faiths regardless of his own beliefs, or the lack thereof, in this case.
It’s a case of “me too-ism” and a cry for attention. I’m sure that real atheists are embarrassed by this publicity grab by their own kind. Since atheism is based on being excluded from groups of faith, this attempt to group them into a faith of sorts should upset them greatly.
A brilliant piece by my buddy, McQ at Blackfive on the subject.
Category: Military issues
Atheists have spiritual needs, too.
No, atheists have ego needs.
ALL military chaplains are REQUIRED to minister to ALL faiths. Atheism is religion dressed up in narcissism & hubris. It’s the logical result of statism and the leftist philosophy of “everyone’s a victim!”.
I can’t wait until we have to start dealing with gay weddings in the post chapel. Not.
That’s just stupid. Like providing OB/GYN’s to a football teams offensive line. Chaplains can minister to many faiths. Atheism is no faith.
Agree with PN: atheists have spiritual needs, too. That’s a function of human nature. It is the subject and object of those needs that run counter more established religions. Atheists are perfected in their faith when they have no faith outside their self, in that moment in time.
In the long run, this is just another line of attack on Chaplains with the intent of destroying the corps. Folks don’t get that when one removes morality from martial service, one gets Tamburlain, not Patton.
Count me among embarrassed atheists (whose irreligion isn’t a result of victim based statism, lol). The whole thing just reeks of “boo hoo, that’s not fair” type one-upmanship.
re #1, #4
Not spiritual needs, mental heath needs and counseling maybe. Chaplains always filled that unique gulf between the mental heath system and religious counselling and executed religious services in austere environments. Since atheists don’t have any form of religious counseling or services they don’t need chaplains. Also, since Chaplains serve the morale and welfare of all service members, I never flinched from seeking the aid of a Chaplin if I needed their assistance in that capacity. Otherwise I had a battery of mental health professionals at my disposal.
NSOM: Can you still talk to, and seek advice from, the religious chaplains, or do you go to someone else?
Same wavelength, NSOM! You answered before I asked!
“secular humanists “ NSOM? those are communist code words. Humanist, humanism , communitisimn and communitarianism are all code….
NSOM: you’re spot-on on chaplains provided services other than purely religious ones. There is a practical matter to be resolved: who credentials a practicioner of atheism to be a chaplain? Oprah? Dr. Phil?
Under military procedure, one must be credentialed by the governing body of one’s religion. For atheism to be credentialed, atheism must be recognised as a religion with an administrative unit for propagating the faith. If atheism is a religion, then atheism isn’t atheism. The argument for atheist chaplains is a self-defeating syllogism.
Never met and avowed atheist who wasn’t at least 80% communist as well. The two just seem to go hand in hand.
Pinto,
I have to disagree. If an atheist has spiritual needs they’re doing it wrong…..
re #9
That’s completely not true. Quite a few of the founding fathers would fit today’s definition of secular humanist. I don’t identify with secular humanists myself because my particular position is more a simple lack of faith than a positive declaration of anti-theism but quite a few of the people I know who do own the label are Objectivists/Randians, libertarians and other such free marketeers.
re #11
Get out more?
re #10
I wondered about the logistics of that myself. Especially considering many atheist groups are less support/guidance groups and more activist organizations. Still, they’re making the whole Wicca farce work so maybe they can get this to work too. I’m not holding my breath though.
Ministering to atheists ought not to be any different from ministering to some other faith (or belief system, to broaden the term a bit) that the chaplain doesn’t share. The answer that the atheist soldier above received from a chaplain friend is wrong; they are supposed to minister to everyone, whether their personal beliefs encompass a creator or the Force or Shiva the Destroyer or nothing at all.
That said, I’m not sure what the practical benefit of an atheist chaplain would be, what they could provide that is not being provided, other than the ability to say “Look, we’re inclusive and non-judgmental.”
Some people believe some pretty odd things. My hat’s off to the chaplain corps (my little brother among them) for being dedicated to helping everyone, no matter where they’re coming from.
NSOM: the you are more accurately described as an agnostic, not an atheist.
NSOM as an archaeologist I was in a profession chock full of both. I don’t need to get out more, I’m on solid ground where I stand.
The Wall Street Journal at http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704187604576289134176161682.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_MIDDLETopOpinion have it right.
We’ll bet a lot of the 285,000 no-preference folks are nonreligious, just not strongly so. In other words, they don’t believe in God, but they don’t care about it enough to get in other people’s faces about it. The paradox of the militant atheist is that he is fanatical about his disbelief and wants it to be treated as the equivalent of a religion.
As a matter of Constitutional law, atheism is considered a religion:
‘The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a “religion” for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions, most recently in McCreary County, Ky. v. American Civil Liberties Union of Ky., 125 S.Ct. 2722 (2005). The Establishment Clause itself says only that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,” but the Court understands the reference to religion to include what it often calls “nonreligion.” In McCreary County, it described the touchstone of Establishment Clause analysis as “the principle that the First Amendment mandates government neutrality between religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion.”’
http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/tmp/7F0XV42J.pdf
The atheists I knew in Iraq (at least those who’d admit to it) ranged from militant assholes (including the platoon sergeant, who was an all-around incompetent fuckwad, who unsuccessfully tried to ban a group of Marines from holding Bible study in the barracks) to the aforementioned libertarian-leaning skeptics who pretty much kept it to themselves unless you asked. One kid from a hispanic family in the San Jose area was disowned by his Jehovah’s witness mother when he enlisted, military service being against the religion and all; she wouldn’t even take his phone calls prior to any of his three deployments to Iraq. Can’t say I blame him for being a little bitter toward religion.
In any event, none of the atheists I knew seemed like the type who would have consulted an “atheist chaplain” if such a person was available.
re #15
Well, kind of. Agnostics take the position that the divine is unknowable and so hold no position at all whereas atheists disbelieve based on the available evidence. I find all the narratives of divinity I’ve been exposed to to be improbable in the extreme so I actively disbelieve them. That I don’t philosophically reject the possible existence of the supernatural or the legitimate power of other people’s belief systems doesn’t make me an agnostic. Doug Adams and Richard Dawkins actually had a long discussion about it, where Adams had previously labeled himself agnostic but was convinced by Dawkins that atheist is actually more accurate. I share Adams general outlook. Dawkins, on the other hand, is a boob.
re #16
Well you’re in the field of anthropology so everyone you know is a communist 🙂 Perhaps it’s a matter of sampling.
re #17
The number of people in the military who are irreligious is much larger due to the “no preference” category you cited. When I first went in and they asked my my religion I said “atheist”. The guy at MEPS goes, “Ok, no preference.”
“No,” I said, “I’m an atheist.”
“That’s no preference.”
“There’s no atheist category?”
“No.”
Turns out there is but there’s a lot of pressure not to identify as such, why I don’t know. I actually tried to have it changed a couple times but it always turned out to be more trouble than it was worth to me.
NSOM,
Well, we agree that Dawkins is a boob. Hallelujah!
I have to agree that atheism is a lack-of-faith group. How can any atheist argue with that?
I’m not against atheists. It’s just that chaplains are people who wear two hats–they are clergy, and they are members of the military. I’ve never heard of a group of nonbelievers having clergy. Isn’t that kind of what atheism is about? None of that God stuff, none of that church stuff, none of that Bible stuff?
But then again, I’m intrigued by the following statement:
“Humanism fills the same role for atheists that Christianity does for Christians and Judaism does for Jews,”
Yeppers! I have to aqree. Even people who claim no religion seem to attach an almost religious importance to SOMETHING. Their religious beliefs, their unchallengeable doctrines, become things like “diversity” and “tolerance”, as well as environmental causes. Their sins include not recycling, having an exceedingly large carbon footprint, or simply having an “Islamophobic” thought.
And that is why they should follow their own damned advice and not force their religion on other people.
Also–how does an atheist chaplain tend to the spiritual needs of atheist soldiers, if neither the chaplain nor the soldiers believe in such a concept as a spirit?
Does the term ‘spirit’ make any sense at all when you don’t believe in spirit?
And now I will be regaled by morons telling me that atheism doesn’t preclude belief in spirit.
I think is just another example of the left’s favorite tactic–redefining words until they become meaningless.
Just wanted to add a few things here.
I think that what is needed is a chance for non-believers to be able to meet and help each other deal with different issues like high stress and grief. Even though the Chaplains can help, the fact that the lack of a common ground with a non-believer against a believer is a hurdle that Chaplains face when trying to help this group.
One reason why I think that should be looked at is based on a few examples. Back in 2007 my wife had a miscarriage scare and went to the ER. When the topic of religion came up and he found out that nether of us were Christians he told us that “We needed to find Jesus”. So with this in mind when the issues of mortality and grief come into play like this I really do not want to talk about religion. Just as I would expect a similar response if a theist was dealing with high stress/grief and someone told them “Your wasting your time(in believing).”
I have been a atheist since about 1995 and considering the posts I have put it since 2009 I think that it is safe to say that I am not a communist.
Stand by for a demand that Christian Scientists be fully represented in the Medical Corps.