Expanding women’s roles in combat
I don’t what I can say about this I haven’t already said but here’s the story at Stars & Stripes;
Citing defense officials, the AP reported that the new rules are expected to continue the long-held prohibition that prevents women from serving as infantry, armor and special operations forces. But they will formally allow women to serve in other jobs at the battalion level, which until now had been considered too close to combat.
AP said the changes would formally allow women to be assigned to a battalion and serve in jobs such as medics, intelligence, police or communications officers.
About twenty years ago I wrote a letter to the S&S when the military was contemplating this move after the Gulf War. I said then, like I say now; that’s fine and dandy with me, except that if they’re going to start putting women closer to the fight, they have a responsibility to train them for it. That means eliminating gender-specific standards for training. If they’re going to do men’s jobs in men’s environment, they have to do it to the same standard.
Combat doesn’t discriminate. Bullets don’t don’t go less far or slower for women.
From Associated Press;
“We believe that it’s very important to explore ways to offer more opportunities to women in the military,” Pentagon press secretary George Little said Thursday. “This review has been thorough and extensive,” with input from all branches of the military.
It’s not a matter of career opportunities, it’s more related whether you’re going to train to an acceptable standard that doesn’t discriminate. This isn’t the movies where men are trying to keep women out of our boy’s club. Generally, when women get trained to a man’s standard, they cry that they’re being treated unfairly.
Take that cow, Shannon Faulkner, who spent years battling for her chance at The Citadel who dropped out after a few days because she thought she was going to be treated differently and spent not one minute preparing for the rigors of the college. In a 2009 interview she still blamed men for her one week tour of duty;
She spent just one week at the Citadel. During that time, Faulkner battled extreme physical and mental stress, and passed much of the week in the infirmary, suffering severe dehydration.
Yeah, you don’t get dehydrated from stress, you get dehydrated from not being prepared. Women every where are celebrating this decision by the Pentagon, but they need to understand that there’s a price still to be paid.
Category: Military issues
Female Charlie shoots an AK 47.
@44 The Big Lie= Women in Combat will work. I know it will lead to more body bags. Again what would women contribute to a battle like Dak To? Kumbaya…we are all equal and must be understanding! Let’s keep the self esteems propped up! As for “I know a female who can do such and such”… That is an exception. Again, uneffing believable!
I just hate stupid arguments that some guys make. If you have a legit reason bring it, but if not don’t. Don’t be a tard and bring up the same worn out reasons.
If you are a boot kid wet behind the ears and a vet with a couple deployments behind her belt corrects you maybe you should listen. If you are an old timer maybe things have changed since your day and some women are pretty damn capable and deserve some respect. I don’t like people insulting my sisters who fought and bled along side me. Right or wrong times are changing and coming on here and saying women don’t belong isn’t changing it.
Sometimes saying a woman doesn’t belong can make a woman who busted her ass in combat and earned her stripes like the rest of us not feel like she is one of us. I don’t give a shit if you think blah, blah, blah, but I know a lot of women who put some miles on the highway in Iraq doing a dangerous job and to have some asshat behind a computer say they don’t belong is bullshit.
@53 – “I don’t like people insulting my sisters who fought and bled along side me.”
Well said. That sums it up right there.
This is one area where I disagree with a lot of guys in my unit. I feel that if women can handle the physical stress of it, and meet the same standards that the men do, there is no reason to exclude them.
I deployed with some women who rocked, and who I gladly went into harms way with. I also did so with men, who I wouldn’t have trusted with a bb-gun if I’d been given a choice in the matter.
Which isn’t to say that every woman was a hard charging blood drinking GI Jane or that every guy was as useless as tits on boar.
That said, PT isn’t the be all end of standards. Its a hell of a thing, and I’ve known PT studs who couldn’t handle missions outside the gate. But its the measure we use and so if women are held to the same standard as men, then fine, let’em roll. And seriously, hold the men to that standard as well.
I fail to see how this changes anything. Women are serving in all the roles they just suddenly “opened up”. Maybe this will allow a few more folks into the deployment pool and give others abreak..but its won’t change anything. They have women on MITT teams…my current HHC CDR is one. She’s a good troop…but I;m sure there are plenty that aren’t worth a shit. The biggest issue is the PT norming…does it matter and if it does will Big Army change it? I’m 5’10 on a good day and 220…not much blubber. In body armor and basic load I weigh a shit ton. Most guys can’t drag me let alone a female….so thats going to have to be addressed if they push this farther then they’re currently talking.
We had a lot of females in our unit in Iraq who actually went out EVERYDAY! Some had an “Office” MOS that didn’t really train them for the weapons skills they needed- that’s where some of us NCO’s stepped in and did more training..for both the males and females who went out with us.
A few of these female soldiers did much better than many male soldiers and if I went with some of the teams, I’d put myself in their Humvee because I knew they could drive and shoot.
CI roller dude, quit telling the secret that we allready know. Yes women are different, but not necessarily less capable.
I really love this site, but this is one issue it needs to maybe get up to speed on. Some of you people here need to quit fucking with our sisters.
tell you what when a woman can hum 100+ pounds of gear 15 miles, and still be ready to fight, I’ll have no problem with them being near the front. Till then keep them in the rear with the gear or in fixed positions. M’kay?
and BTW why the hell is this about diversity, and not “can they do the jobs”? If you had a ton of studies that said women would make fine combat killers fine. But studies (and common sense) tend to tell the exact opposite. so why the hell are we doing this?
Doc, can you? 100+ pounds, 15 miles, then do lanes? I don’t really care if you have a pair that dangle below the waist or a pair that dangle above the waist. If you can do your shit, no matter what job you have, then you are worth the uniform you wear. I have had minions (Supply is a funny place) who were male and complained about everything you could think of. I have had some who were female that single-person lifted a MK-19. One guy got a splinter under his fingernail and had to go to the medics. One female skinned the shit out of the back of her hand with a piece of plyboard from shelving, cursed the shit out, broke the board in half, treated it with the first aid kit we have in the back room, then finished building the shelves like I assigned. Alone, I might add, because the guy who was building with her was lollygagging at the medics. In training, I made sure that my squad was all treated the same. I didn’t care if they were male or female. In uniform they are all soldiers. If you can’t hack it, then make yourself stronger. Think something is too hard? I’ll do it with my fucked up knee. You have two healthy ones, what’s your excuse? Every member of my squad stayed together during road marches where other troopies fell out (Admins, etc.). We were carrying our normal combat loads, on top of the extra shit that supply had to carry. Oh, and one of the two females in my squad was also the SAW gunner. If you don’t think a female can do something, then you are failing as an NCO or officer. You know why they can’t do it? Because you are derelict in your duty of training them to accomplish the assigned goal. Suck it up buttercup and train your troopies, male or female, to accomplish your goal. If you “know” that a female isn’t as tough as a male, let’s see a male work while feeling his balls in… Read more »
I was required to take 6 females with me in 05. In case we took any female prisoners.
It was some of my single worst experiences with Marines in 20 years.
And before you accuses me of being a poor troop leader. I attempted to tear them no different than any other Marine. They couldn’t hack it. I still pushed them as I wanted them to come home alive. I was told to back off and they were given abbreviated training schedules. None of which included my frequent all day death marches on the ridges of 29 Palms.
As far as I am concerned it was a dismal failure and they never left the confines of Camp Fallujah.
This isn’t about honor or courage.
This is about power and money. The audience is not the soldier, sailor, airman or marine who is female. The audience is the feminists and their recruits, and the goal is campaign contributions for a lifetime, and political power.
The proof of my assertion? Two parts:
1. If DoD maintains a gender-tiered personnel policy – one for men (no slack), and another for women.
2. Continued funding/increased priority for the powered suit, a la Heinlein and Ripley’s lifter from Aliens 2, becomes a reality within 3 years. The exo-skeleton is a great start, but what is needed is full on bionics and smart robotics like cannon autoloaders that erase the physical differences between the genders. Don’t see the assclowns pulling this stunt knowingly continuing funding these projects.
Those women who form the audience for this stunt will never serve, will never acknowledge the humanity of the men who do serve, and won’t be changing any time soon.
Wow 1sgtD lemme see if I got my medal for you here. This coming from the guy who proclaimed 80% of the women he served with were useless as fuck. Somehow all the women you were to take to combat with you didn’t leave the wire color me suprised!
Would it have been better for me to allow subpar Marines to leave the wire and get themselves and others killed sir?
My mission is twofold. Mission Accomplishment and troop welfare.
In the case of combat. Troop welfare translates to bringing them home alive.
After several years of reflection. I have to qualms that I made the right choice.
Fuck it, I’ll say it. Jessica Lynch is famous and got medals for being captured. That’s all she did.
The main issue remains – that of persons with an agenda which is anti-military making policy decisions which have nothing whatever to do with mission accomplishment or the most efficient or effective way of getting there.
Those same folks are also making weird, nonsensical decisions about weapon systems, troop strength, and everything else with which actual members of the military must contend. We with some age on us have seen it before and somehow managed to survive. That proves that it can be done, but we all still need to be watchful. It seems that the cycles of their destruction are getting deeper and more difficult to overcome.
But that is just one jaded opinion.
Top D, you gotta be Old Corps. I was taught I didn’t eat until my Marines were eating. (I usually wound up with the tuna fish c rat) I didn’t sleep until my Marines were snug in their Amtracs. I didn’t do anything until my Marines were taken care of. I was taught ‘Semper Fi’ was your world! The Plt Sgt, Gunny B always called them “your” Marines. At first I think it irked our Plt Ldr, Lt Byrd, that Gunny called them “yours” but eventually he started doing the same. It must have worked, I’m still in touch with some of my Marines and that was 30 years ago.
Ha. A lot of smoke here and puffed up egos. Some know that 100+ lb pack for 15 miles then lanes or other tomfoolery was and is a regular occurrence in the infantry. It also seems hilarious to talk about being a ‘SAW gunner’ like its equivalent when the only time you see it is mounted on a Hummer? Maybe the Hummer will carry that for you too, haha…
PT is overemphasized in the combat arms, deal with it. When things go to shit, you sometimes can get through by muscling it. Not preferred COA, but it works. When the Powers That Be have a single PT standard then we can talk about qualifications.
There is a difference between combat and Combat Arms. That doesn’t take away anything from those serving honorably from a desk, motor pool or wherever. And we all know douchebags occur irrespective of gender. So, whatever!
No, 1sgtD I just wasnt suprised about story. It sounds like you really took care of your guys I bet the way you tell it Chesty Puller would be proud to call you top!
Not sure what you are implying Jason.
I’ve long lost my desire to pretend shit is good to go. That we all know isn’t.
None of this conversation takes away from what some very valiant women have done for their countries.
My first tour outside of a combat arms MOS. Was as a newly minted First Shirt. I reported into a female CO. To this day she stands as the epitome of what a Marine should strive to be. She was one of the finest CO’ s I had the privilege to work with.
At one point I befriended a female Cobra Pilot. Again a top notch Marine. Honestly one of the best.
They are a very real minority amongst female Marines. And they knew it. We had honest open dialog about the female Marine situation and they called it square.
Again I say. It you have to lower the standards to create equality.
It’s not
See it sounds like you were being a bit of a storyteller. Your first assertation is that because 80% of the women you served with weren’t worth a fuck and all women in the military were a waste. Then you related a story where you were forced to have women with you and for the good of your marines you never utilized them. Now you bring up annecdotal evidence of good marines who happen to be women. Now which is it? Are women in the military a waste or maybe worth it?
By the way just so you know the women who have died fighing alongside the men they do count so think about that before you answer. Oh and if you think their sacrifice was a waste I think you can eat a dick.
Wake the fuck up. We’ve been in combat. /thread
95% of the women I’ve served with in the fleet Marine force were pieces of shit. We had one or two that were awesome, and by awesome I mean they did what all the rest of us did. I’m not under the impression that all women in the military are worthless, but in my experiences I would not like to have to rely on the majority of them to save my ass.
Engineers Up as a friend said…never mind high five, face, sledge…bored. Horse dead…its sappers up balls in the wire.
Ya know this is becoming a pissing match over personal experiences. I spoke of a BAM Lt who was hell on wheels. I dated PFC Rita Flores while she was at the Remington Raider Academy at Camp Del Mar (21area), I know why she was gonna be a clerk. Then there was L/Cpl Pelham(?) at the NCO Academy that smoked more than a few male Marines, myself included. By the same token there was PFC Lorenzo Farr whom I could have cared less about, he was in 1st section, but who was a damn good Maine, odd note I testified at his court martial for rape (he was acquitted) while being his chaser. I had PFC Dan Whitney in my section who was a great guy but a PISS POOR Marine. like they say “there’s always that 10%”. Back in the ’70s there were a lot fewer BAMs but the ones I did encounter seemed to have their heads and asses wired pretty damn tight. Personal experiences…If they intend to integrate all units there can only be one standard for everything. If L/Cpl Pelham(?) wants to be a grunt she’s must be held to the same standard as every other grunt. If Lt ‘Hottie’ (she was) wants to be a trac rat she needs to be held to the same standards. if they can do it great, if they can’t they can be clerks with PFC Flores.
I have seen 2 (count em) female superstars that could KEEP UP, with the Infantry in 6 years in the army. I’ve also seen an E-5 who couldn’t make points cuz she couldn’t pass tape because she got pregnant every year. I saw a doc that in thirteen months was working on the second kid, and ran a marathon 8 months pregnant.
Yes we all know exceptions. But policy is not something you want to base on exceptions. ESPECIALLY in combat. If there is any other arena on earth that requires brutal honesty, it is in combat.
We had this subject come up when I was in leadership school. We had a big tough Security Forces chick in our class and she strongly disagreed with keeping women out of combat- citing that we were all equal. Most of the class wanting to be politically correct went to her side (the class was purposely set up in sections, varying from strongly agree, to strongly disagree). When the instructor asked us to voice our sides she and the rest of the PC peeps went on and on about equality and genders being equals. Then the instructor asked me to explain myself (and I was pretty much alone) I talked about PHYSICAL capability, how men are simply built differently and more able to take the rigors of battle. At that the class (who were able to change their answers as they wished) moved over to my side.
Don’t get me wrong I’m all for equality, and heck I’m just a weenie comm guy and there are probably a lot of females out there who could just crush me but take your average guy and your average girl and compare them physically- it’s not exactly an even match. There wouldn’t need to be different PT standards if we were all TRULY equal.
Doc, I agree with you 100%! Maybe while reminiscing I convoluted my point. I work for the city of Phoenix, Az sanitation department. We have just at 250 route drivers, 12 of which are females. Why the low number? They are held to the exact same standards as the guys. They have to be able to do the same DoT pre and post trip inspections as the guys climbing over and under their trucks. They drop a garbage can in their truck, they have to follow procedures and get the can out, those things cost $100 a piece! If they’re working uncontained trash, large bulky items, they have to be able to pick up their side of a sofa and pitch it in the truck. If they can’t, they’re gone. There’s no weighted scale, either they can or they can’t. End of story
I’ve made this point before, and I’ll make it again. On a light day we’re carrying 60 lbs of gear. The average female weighs on the order of 130. that’s almost half her body weight. Then when you get into the shape of the hips, you tend to realize that men are almost designed to bare loads on their backs. Women are designed to bare loads (for obvious reasons) in the front close to said hips. Now throw in that the average percentage of muscle mass is higher in males, and body fat lower. . . and you tend to find (rather quickly) that does not lend creadence to the “equality” argument.
I haven’t even gotten into lung capacity, heart strength, or physical endurance. Another great one, you know why females always seem to complain of being cold? Because their surface capillaries are fewer, the blood pumped to their extremities less. They’re more prone to frostbite (they tend not to get it as much cuz they don’t typically go to places that one gets frostbite).
Now the last part is psychological. I know its harsh but women are not psychologically inclined to combat. Can they preform in fixed emplacements? Yes and very well. Anyone fights well when protecting their own. But the thought of going out and hunting their fellow human being. . . Like I said there are some who can do it. But Policy should never ever EVER be based on the exceptions.
^Like^
What Doc said (#79).
Wow you say it then you go and do the exact thing you are complaining about… I find that most guys who bitch most are the most insecure.
I’m gonna weigh in on this thread even though I got out of the Army in 1965. The subject came up then as well from time to time. All I have to say now is that Ziva kicks ass on NCIS!!!
Whoops, #83 was (and is) me … excuse the senior moment
Women in combat arms has become an annual event it seems. Bottom line: You put women in Infantry units and people are going to get killed. And it won’t be the bad guys.
I think we are splitting hairs here. I don’t think anyone is arguing that every female is worthless in combat, or that every female should be allowed in combat.
Most of us admit that we know females who would be stellar combat operators and males who were worthless when the elephant arrived. The opposite is also true.
The concern I have is that without a unified standard of some sort you are going to see slippage that will get people killed. The problem with that, is what should that standard be?
PT is a poor standard by that measure. I’m closer to 40 than I am to 20, and my 14 minute two mile times are a distant memory. Push-ups, I top out in the high 40’s…
About the only thing that has gotten better for me is sit ups (in the 70’s). There are plenty of females out there that can run the two mile faster than me and some that do more push-ups.
And yet you don’t hear much argument about keeping males like me out of combat. (In the interest of full disclosure, I routinely ruck guys half my age into the ground, shoot in the top 10% of my company, and know my MOS like few others, so despite my PT scores I’m not a total shit bag).
So what standard should be used? Thats the bigger question and the one that isn’t talked about, mainly I suspect because we know the military isn’t going to switch to a unified standard, and that is where the idea of females in combat breaks down for me.
We have an arbitrary standard, and that is going to get people killed or injured.
Just Plain Jason
You’re a babbler son.
Yep, but I don’t make shit up. 1sgtD you are like a racist who says I’ve got plenty of black friends…
@22, Karlen is not gonna get laid. Real women don’t find whiny douchbags to be remotely attractive. The rest of you whiners need to get over yourselves. Women are already in combat, whether we hold a combat arms MOS or not. Show me a “front” in modern day warfare, then show me how to avoid putting women on said front. The real point is that MOS strength and stamina standards are required, which will vary by that MOS’ actual needs, and the PT test is not that measure. If/when said standards actually exist, then everyone who meets an MOS standard should have the opportunity to do that MOS. Unfortunately, politics are preventing DoD from establishing those standards, all in the interest of “fairness” and “equality” (and gold stars and “you’re just so special” warm and fuzzies, I guess). So instead of common, equal and fair standards for each MOS, we get social engineering and stupid comments in reaction. The last male that tried looking down on me shut his yap real fast, after I put nine rounds into the crotch of a target on a moonless, black night. No, I have zero interest in joining the combat arms — but you whiny douchbags (not meaning to insult a useful item, but since y’all keep using the term, then ok) damn well better stop trash mouthing all women in the military. All that does is prove you to be the less than sterling serviceman you think you are. Whiners. The military survived desegregation; we’ll survive the next level of social engineering. One last point: I ripped the heads off males who failed to hold women to the same standards in that unit, who allowed the drama queens to get away with crap men would not get away with. How many of you need your heads ripped off for the same reason? And the few times anyone tried to submit an EO complaint, I ripped their heads off, and the EO officer/NCO, too. How many of you have the intestinal fortitude to do that? Or would you rather just protect your “career”… Read more »
@89: good for you. I never said I was against you fighting in fixed emplacements. I am Against you preforming assaults or being assigned to units that do. Could you be a Mortar maggot, Red Leg, or Cav Scout. . . possibly. But I’m willing to bet you are and exception.
I’ve got nothing against Female Mechanics, cooks, medics, quartermasters MPs etc, but even there I’ve seen a lot of issues with mixed commands. I loved infantry land for a lot of reasons. Not the least of which you could be a guy and not worry about someone throwing up the EO flag when you horse around. Just sayin
1. I don’t want to serve with Just Plain Jason
2. I am glad I am not in the Army anymore
3. Let’s get some of these pussy ass males back in the U.S. to join the military so women don’t have to go to combat.
Women shouldn’t be in combat because what is going to happen to them if they get captured? How is that going to effect morale? I don’t know about you but I don’t want any women being subjected to the vermin we are fighting now.
@88. Nope just an old dog who watch the bullshit for years.
Based on your responses. I’m not convinced that you even bothered to read all of my post.
Or that your preconceived notions allowed your brain to digest them.
Well DUI if you are willing to make that kind of snap judgement based off of little more than comments on a page like this then maybe it is best if we don’t serve together.
Keep telling yourself that Top…
Doc we agree on a lot but you are hung up on women in the military in general. Based on respect I get you are saying, but like I said earlier every time you say they don’t belong at all that kinda puts all our sisters who have busted their asses and earned a spot down. Shitheals I don’t know or respect then start running their cockholsters then it gets worse. Next thing we know every wanna be and fake is running their sump pretending they know their ass from a hole in the ground.
The reason for expanding women’s role in more combat positions is because of the child obesity rates in America. We are going to lose about 1/3 of our recruiting numbers for males cause their just too overweight to enlist in any branch of the service. It’s become a matter of national secuirty now to increase job fields for females. I personally don’t agree with it. Until that changes we’re going to be stuck we more females in the military with lower standards.
All I’ve read here is about some queens of the motor pool. It’s a whole other subject to run into a house full of bad dudes who just killed your friends. Color me unimpressed when someone casts aspersions on someone who disagrees with them (won’t get laid? That’s relevant how) but doesn’t be bothered to address Docs points.
PT is an imperfect standard, no doubt. Everyone knows someone who is a PT stud who is a dunce or vice versa. But what do you suggest? Like I stated previously, it is overemphasized but the fact remains it can get you out of otherwise horrible situations.
Based on my experiences, I don’t believe that the small portion of physically capable women would be worth the accommodations necessary to implement them. This is not a mission-based ‘need’ but a decadent desire for some poorly thought out equality initiative.
Like healthcare and other government initiatives we’ve seen of late, show me it works before you stuff it down our neck. Then let’s talk about what’s best for our country.
There lies the rub.
Are there women capable of the physical rigors required for those jobs? Yes
Are there enough to justify a massive paradigm shift in the MOS, to include changes in budget, structure, logistics, etc to accomodate those who can? Probably not
Are there those in Washington who want the standards lowered to accomodate those who can’t cut it? Absolutely