How’s that Mao thing working out?
A professor from Hong Kong was able to get unprecedented access to government archives in China from the period known as “The Great Leap Forward” during which Mao Zedong tried to catch China up with the twentieth century by wiping out millions of families;
Mr Dikötter, who has been studying Chinese rural history from 1958 to 1962, when the nation was facing a famine, compared the systematic torture, brutality, starvation and killing of Chinese peasants to the Second World War in its magnitude. At least 45 million people were worked, starved or beaten to death in China over these four years; the worldwide death toll of the Second World War was 55 million.
In just four years. Pretty good role model ain’t he? That’s probably why Victor Agosto, of the IVAW admires him (that’s Victor mimicking Mao’s image in the Great Leap Forward poster above). Yeah, the founders of ANSWER and World Can’t Wait were all admitted Maoists – but if we call them communists, we’re “red baiting”.
Victor says China’s model of communism is “state capitalism”. But, Mao was a Stalinist and used starvation as a weapon against his people just like Stalin and Lenin did.
The lessons of history are always lost on the Left.
Category: Antiwar crowd, Iraq Veterans Against the War
The resemblance is uncanny.
I am sure Victor will be posting on how we have taken this out of context.
I think that’s Lenin, not Mao. But we get the point.
“State retribution for tiny thefts, such as stealing a potato, even by a child, would include being tied up and thrown into a pond; parents were forced to bury their children alive or were doused in excrement and urine, others were set alight, or had a nose or ear cut off. One record shows how a man was branded with hot metal.”
Try explaining that one away. I like how they blast this country over and over again for the prime source of evil in the World, but forget there are plenty of others with blood on their hands.
Oh wait, that article is just part of the Capitalist conspiracy against the Socialist Workers of this world.
Yes, that’s Lenin, not Mao. I even pointed this out in the 9/11 thread. I’m not surprised, though, since your writings are full of lies and speculation, Jonn.
And Lenin did not “use starvation as a weapon against his people.”
The face on that figure is too fat and round to be Lenin. Lenin DID most certainly use starvation as a weapon. Five million peasants died in 1922 while the government seized their harvest.
And it’s typical that you focused on the least important aspects of the entire post, Victor. Couldn’t find any misspellings?
Lenin, Mao, Fidel, Hugo; Which one is a stellar example of “Living the good life”? Where on this planet is there a more comfortable country to live in, to achieve in, to enjoy ones fruits than the USA, Viktor?
ok, I don’t understand how these “libs” or whatever nutjob thing they are, can take all of their “views” and put them in little boxes and ignore the fact that they CLASH WITH EACH OTHER!
I mean, ok, china is “state capitalism”, but look at how they had to try to clean up the air for the Olympics, now, how does that coincide with your environmental views…
and look at Afghan girls being denied education– how does that coincide with your women’s lib views? IT DOESN’T!!
That morman sect marries 14 year olds– oh my gosh it’s a crime (it is disgusting, I grant you) but Muslims do it– it’s ok. Who’s the bigot here? who doesn’t care if some MUSLIM little girl is raped or denied an education? THE one’s who claim to be progressive!!
None of these supposed progressive views could survive with EACH OTHER! IDIOTS.
“The face on that figure is too fat and round to be Lenin.”
LOL @ you telling me what Lenin looked like. When have you ever seen a picture of Mao sporting facial hair?
“Five million peasants died in 1922 while the government seized their harvest.”
You have a wild imagination, Jonn.
It’s true that harvests were taken from peasants to feed the Army that was defending Russia from invasion against 14 CAPITALIST ARMIES during the Russian civil war. It’s funny how right-wingers are the first to say that extraordinary measures sometimes have to be taken during wartime, but when a nation’s survival really is under threat (unlike the imperialist occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan) they want to make up ridiculous numbers.
“And it’s typical that you focused on the least important aspects of the entire post, Victor. Couldn’t find any misspellings?”
It’s ridiculous that you accuse me of being a supporter of Mao and Stalin when I hate them more than you do.
Those 5 million people died as the combined result of drought, disruption of agricultural production and because the Army needed food to defend the country, not because of a deliberate plot by Lenin to starve them.
The founders of ANSWER and World Can’t Wait can speak for themselves, I’m not a member of either organization.
The face is quite fat. But Lenin did have the stache. I think it’s a hybrid.
“It’s true that harvests were taken from peasants to feed the Army that was defending Russia from invasion against 14 CAPITALIST ARMIES during the Russian civil war.”
OK, I got you to admit that Lenin seized harvests from peasants, even though you said it didn’t happen a comment or so ago. So let’s take the next step to prove Victor Agosto is a vacuous tool.
The civil war ended two years before 1922. The western armies had rescued the Czech Legion in 1921. What’s your next excuse?
Maybe if you read history instead of memorizing platitudes, you’d be better at this.
Lenin did use starvation as a weapon against his own people.
Furthermore, Lenin allowed the use of poison gas against his own people. Tambov Rebellion anyone?
Lenin also started the GULAG system and thought that Secret police were a wonderful idea.
I wonder what could have possibly disrupted agricultural production. Maybe the Bad Idea Fairy that decided to kill or drive out most of the competent people in the country because they didn’t hate capitalism enough? Or the idea that merit- and knowledge- based authority was counter-revolutionary?
Communism always winds up failing all on its lonesome, it doesn’t need us,
“The civil war ended two years before 1922.”
Wrong. Major combat operations ended in October 1922, and there were still skirmishes well into 1923.
@Fred
“Lenin also started the GULAG system and thought that Secret police were a wonderful idea.”
The Tambov and Kronstadt rebellions had to be crushed, even if they were crushed reluctantly. Again, this was a war of survival for Russia. Hell, all of you would have me imprisoned or executed for refusing to fight in an imperialist war of choice, I think this concept isn’t too hard to for you understand.
Lenin did not start the Gulag – it didn’t start until 1929. A aecret police was necessary to fight against counterrevolution. The U.S. has a secret police – it’s called the FBI and I think there’s a good chance that at least one person on this thread works for that organization – or one closely affiliated with it, which brings me to…
@Selena
“I wonder what could have possibly disrupted agricultural production. Maybe the Bad Idea Fairy that decided to kill or drive out most of the competent people in the country because they didn’t hate capitalism enough?”
Maybe it was World War I, the war the Tsar you’re so fond of got Russia into. The Bolsheviks pulled Russia out of the WWI – before any other country. I realize you hate that they did that. We all know how badly you want war to end.
“Or the idea that merit-and knowledge- based authority was counter-revolutionary?”
’cause that’s the kind of society we live in now, right?
All of America’s CEOs deserve their disproportionately high salaries. The world really just couldn’t go on with out them.
Workers have no need for the capitalist class and the CEOs that are in it.
Well, Victor, by 1921, Lenin was considering allowing capitalists to run his economy because it had failed so badly, until he hit on the idea of just seizing everyone’s harvest and controlling distribution instead.
We could argue my documented history (which ends the Russian Revolution in 1920) versus your conveniently manufactured history, but I don’t have any interest in your childish antics. If you want to cling to the myth, that’s fine. You can hug your Tickle Me Fidel plush doll deep into the night. Go tell your altered history to your ex-patriot Cuban neighbor.
I say this with all of respect; Victor, eat a bag of steaming dicks. Comrade.
Jonn, you are like soft butter to me.
Again and again, I come on here, get ganged up on by you and your cronies and I still tear your arguments to shreds. You’re lucky I don’t comment on threads that have little connection to me personally, otherwise I’d be tearing almost everything you write to apart. Maybe one of these days I’ll get bored and compile a list of all of the times I have had to point out your lies.
I’ll leave you with one final correction.
“We could argue my documented history (which ends the Russian Revolution in 1920) versus your conveniently manufactured history, but I don’t have any interest in your childish antics.”
I don’t know what kind of cigars you’ve been smoking, but the world knows the Russian Revolution began and ended in 1917.
Some confused sources might say the Russian Civil war ended in 1921. No respectable account of the Russian civil war says it ended in 1920. As I said before, major combat operations ended in 1922, with skirmishes lasting until 1923.
Victor, would you like to move to Russia? I am sure that can be arranged. If you think some other country has a better system than the US’, please let me know which one that is, I will start taking up a collection to send you there. As to “shredding” Jonn’s arguments, well go ahead and tell yourself that you are some great intellectual, we’ll wait and try to stifle the laughter. You need to realize that equality of opportunity does not result in equality of outcome. Some people are smarter than others. Some people welcome responsibility, while other shun it. Some people are simply willing to work harder. No matter what the system, somebody will figure out how to “get ahead” – it is a biological imperative. Your glorious worker’s consortium will never work unless someone leads the masses. That someone will get more than the followers. Corruption ensues.
Viktor:
“tear our arguments to shreds”? I don’t see any shreds laying around anywhere here. Just because you dispute what others say, in no way suggests that you have disproven a damned thing. Your argument may work in mommy’s basement at the IVAW chapter meeting where two of you, 100% of said chapter, meet on Mommy’s bowling night, but as I read your rants, and the opposing comments, I see no victory from you, Viktor.
Socialism sucks, communism sucks, liberalism sucks, and cowardism sucks.
So just go suck something.
Viktor:
http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/romeo/russia1918.htm
http://www.warchat.org/history/history-europe/russian-civil-war-1918-1920.html
http://www.emersonkent.com/wars_and_battles_in_history/russian_civil_war.htm
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Russian_Civil_War
http://war.wikia.com/wiki/Russian_Civil_War
Fuck off.
Spasiba.
You know Victor, you talk big about how we are totally clueless and you just have the answers. Yet you say this from a place of comfort, safety and anything that can be considered normal. It is easy say this when it does not directly affect. Or when you try to make history fit your own slanted view. The Tambov and Kronstadt rebellions had to be crushed, even if they were crushed reluctantly. Again, this was a war of survival for Russia. Hell, all of you would have me imprisoned or executed for refusing to fight in an imperialist war of choice, I think this concept isn’t too hard to for you understand. Really? Your are trying to compared what happened in history with with things that have not happened. You would have been shot for pulling the actions that you did in Fort Hood. I quote. I give warning that if any unit retreats without orders, the first to be shot down will be the commissary of the unit, and next the commander. Brave and gallant soldiers will be appointed in their places. Cowards, dastards and traitors will not escape the bullet. This I solemnly promise in the presence of the entire Red Army. Leon Trotsky Also the face that we have only executed one person for desertion in the last 65 years and it one one person. Also no one forced you to join, so don’t compare forced conscription to a voluntary enlistment. The U.S. has a secret police – it’s called the FBI and I think there’s a good chance that at least one person on this thread works for that organization – or one closely affiliated with it Again, really? Your trying to compare the FBI to old school KGB? If everything had been equal with computers/internet I promise you, you would not be drawing breath right now. Maybe it was World War I, the war the Tsar you’re so fond of got Russia into. The Bolsheviks pulled Russia out of the WWI – before any other country. I realize you hate that they did that.… Read more »
Victor
Lenin did lay the groundwork for what became the GULAG. Both
Mitrokhin and Solzhenitsyn sure seem to agree on that one.
And how are you some sort of victim? Did you or did you not make a free willed decision to sign a contract obliging yourself to service in the US military?
Think of it this way. In the Soviet Army, you would be drafted into fighting imperialist wars of choice and shot for refusing to do so. And yes I know people who actually lived in the Soviet Union.
I have a seriously hard time buying anything Victor says now after he took that jab at Selena. Not because we are friends, we don’t even talk anymore. But really, working with or for the Feds??? You IVAW nut jobs are smokin’ some serious crack if you actually think Selena is a spy. She drinks just as much IVAW Kool-Aid as the rest of you. Well, ok, not as much as you, clearly.
Ok, I’ve got to go get back to work and file this report with my superior, Special Agent Selena Cop… I mean Special Agent Johnson. No, the other one.
I really hope someone picks up my Die Hard reference above.
It has been proven that NO COUNTRY WITH A DEMOCRACY/REPRESENTATIVE GOV’T HAS EVER HAD FAMINE. EVER. The only countries that suffer from famine are/were socialist/communist/dictatorships.
There was a study that was reported about 8 yrs ago that determined that it was near-impossible for a democracy or capitalist system to suffer the effects of starvation on the scale that the other systems do/did (and ‘do’ refers mainly to NorK’s)
Here is the quote:
”No famine has ever taken place in the history of the world in a functioning democracy,” he wrote in ”Democracy as Freedom” Amartya Sen (Anchor, 1999). As quoted in the NYT:
Not to worry, Casey. I picked it up.
But personally, I like just dismissing these asshat poseurs with a simple, “Yippie-ki-yay, motherfucka…”
I just didn’t want any one to think I was talking about the fourth movie. Man, did that one suck.
@Victor: I’ve never claimed to be a pacifist. I’m against this war, this time. And whether or not I like the Tsar has nothing to do with whether I think people need to be killed and driven out of their homes and have their property seized for the unholy crime of happening to be in charge. Most of Western Civilization considers barbarians at the gates to be a /bad/ thing, you know, trying to put out the light of the world. The Communists deliberately destroyed more art, beauty, and knowledge than any force out there.
You like to crack on CEOs because they don’t “deserve” their salaries, but like it or not, those CEOs are extremely smart, charismatic, and educated people. If I have to choose between a system where the smart, charismatic, and educated get ahead or a system where everyone is treated the same regardless of their abilities, I’ll take the former.
People aren’t the same, and shouldn’t be treated that way.
The Bolsheviks pointedly executed pacifists and conscientious objectors during the Civil War. Russo-German Mennonites, ultra-Orthodox Jews, Gypsies, and Ukrainian Greek Catholics were typical victims of Red discrimination and brutality; many of those communities picked up sticks and went to the New World.
One of the (other) sad facets of Russian history is that such persons generally enjoyed a more certain and much less lethal lot during the German occupation years (WWI) than under the tender mercies of their own government.
Warmongers!
SOLIDARITY! With the people of Gaza, Afghanistan, Iraq, and a whole list of place we will never actually help out because we have no balls what so ever.
I’ve never been a love it or leave it type. But really, put your money where your mouth is.
Also, I found Selena’s hidden camera in my house.
The toilet, really??? That’s just nasty.
Oh, Selena, I really am just joking with you. I think the treatment towards you lately is pretty scum-bag-ish.
Clearly, IVAW members do not back each other up. Or deal with their shit off-line.
Now once again, scream SOLIDARITY like you actually mean it, Victor.
Casey, you don’t know the meaning of the word “solidarity.” You’ve betrayed almost all of the people I know who once cared about you. The only person you know how to be in solidarity with is yourself.
@Selena (Cop)ppa
The 467 richest people on this planet have more wealth than the poorest 3 billion (half of the world’s population). If you think there’s anything fair about that, or that those people really deserve to have so much more, tell me what makes you so deserving of a standard of living that allows you to devote SO MANY HOURS of your time to unpaid “IVAW work.”
@ Victor: Selena paid her dues in the warzone, WTF have you done with your life aside from betray your oath to the US Constitution, do Meth with Matthis and get arrested for retarded little “actions” that no sane human gives a crap about?
Now your giving lecturing people about betrayal? Really now? You still have not answered my question about what you have done to help people besides making CO2. Remember I asked what you have done, not what I would agree with.
Also Victor you have never seen much less lived in hardship or really truly without. I am sure that every single person would trade places with you in a second. So given that in mind I ask your questions back to you.
What make you so deserving of your quality of life that you live in every day.
Victor, those people only gave a damn about me for what I could do for their cause. They are users. They used you too. Plus, they have done and will continue to bad things. It would mighty hypocritical of me to call out the ARmy on their wrong doings but then stay silent when I see the anti-war movement doing wrong. But it’s much better to drink the Kool-Aid than to think for yourself. You’ve traded one closed-minded school of thought for another.
Lucky, to be fair, Selena never deployed. Victor did, once to Iraq. But that does not excuse his idiotic and baseless accusations that Selena is a Super Ninja Spy for this site.
Oh ok. Well, still Casey, he is a monster tool. I mean what i said with the WTF has he done with his life comment.
Well, I can not say I have researched the history being spoken of in great detail, so that is why in another thread I asked him to give me practical examples of where it has worked and he couldn’t prove it.
But if you donate to my flying DeLorean project I promise I’ll be able to travel time with it. Just trust me, it will work.
But it really comes down to is that despite all his talk I doubt that he would put these ideals before his personal comfort.
Wealth is not a zero sum game. Just because one person has wealth does not mean they are taking it from another.
Likewise, why don’t you compare the salary of a Fortune 500 CEO with the yearly profit. Ah here’s one, the Starbucks CEO makes .0000001% of the total annual profit. For a guy that decides corporate strategy and manages over 100,000 stores that’s a pretty fair deal.
Toyota hmmmm only .0000001%
Oh well they are all evil, distribute the wealth instead.
What cracks me up is that Matthis and Victor have both accused Army Sergeant of being a TAH ninja spy because she comments here. They have both commented here. In fact,Jose Velasquez, IVAW’s Executive Director, has commented here. Are Jon DeWald or Adam Kokesh ninja sies, too? They’ve both commented. I could go on.
When you are agreeing with a strung out, paranoid junkie, you just might be off the deep end yourself.
Wow, Jonn. I can’t remember the last time I quoted Reagan, but “there you go again.”
I never criticized (Cop)pa for simply commenting here.
There’s a big difference between pointing out your lies and writing blog posts for your site. You and I will not be hanging out at TSO’s or anybody else’s wedding – ever. My suspicions about (Cop)pa go well beyond giving you information. That fact the you defend (Cop)pa so much despite your supposedly differing views isn’t surprising. Common sense would dictate that you would want (Cop)pa out of IVAW if she were good for the movement. So, either she’s bad for the movement, or her involvement in IVAW benefits you in some other way.
As for Porter, I should have known about him when he revealed that you two were such good buddies.
Yeah, Army Sergeant wrote one whole post. And I caught shit from my side for letting that happen.
Did you know that there are two former-IVAW members who write posts here as well? Well, not often enough, but they’re registered to write. I’ve been welcoming IVAW members here since before you knew there was an IVAW. I stood in the rain for two hours discussing stuff with a group of IVAW while they were doing their tree house thing. Many email me stuff. There’s almost an entire chapter that shovels dirt on you in my direction. You’re not as popular as you think you are.
Oh, yeah, just by calling my posts lies doesn’t make it so. You wouldn’t be here if I posted lies. And neither would the other 90,000 people every month.
What movement? It seems to be made up of a few sheep who conform to the rhetoric of others with no room for independent thought. All I know about Victor is that he’s a convicted criminal and has officially served his country with dishonor. He’s also a Communist with no known education or credentials other than parroting the work of other Communists. Then there is his comrad Matthis who is hypocritical for denouncing the country and its military while using the GI Bill benefits. And they all cast stones at AS. I think they should stick to using Jews/Israelis as scapegoats which is more in line with their close-minded rhetoric. Nope, no movement that I can see. Just a bunch of randoms.
Victor – I have never met nor spoken with Selena. Her political view points on this site generally raise my blood pressure a notch or four. I have plenty of other friends, whose weddings I have attended whose political views are more in synch with yours than mine. That is what being open minded is about – being about to have discussions with people with whom you do not agree, and even be friends despite the political differences.
You and Matthis appear to be paranoid in the extreme. Your “movement” sure isn’t worth much if one woman can destroy it. Surely you realize that the opinions of all IVAW members are not in lockstep with yours on every issue?
In Matthis’ case, I generally chalk this paranoia up to rampid drug use and his massive malignant narcassism. I don’t know enough about you to form an opinion, other than to think you live in a dream world where everyone has the same drive and intellect. I stongly suggest you read a middle shool aged book that my niece asked me to read with her called “The Giver” about what happens when sameness is more important than achievement (be sure to notice that even there some professions have more prestige than others).
“Yeah, Army Sergeant wrote one whole post. And I caught shit from my side for letting that happen.”
Is this supposed to make me feel sympathy for you?
“I’ve been welcoming IVAW members here since before you knew there was an IVAW.”
Thanks for providing such a wonderful service to us over the years. I’ll see if I can get IVAW to send you a medal. I’ll use (Cop)pa as a character reference.
“Did you know that there are two former-IVAW members who write posts here as well?”
Is this supposed to impress me?
As former members, they, by definition, are not IVAW’s membership coordinator as (Cop)pa is.
“You wouldn’t be here if I posted lies.”
Jonn, I’m here because you post lies and since you have people like (Cop)pa on your side who provide you with more info (although it is full of lies and speculation) on what’s happening in IVAW than IVAW’s website does.
“And neither would the other 90,000 people every month.”
Are you flustered, Jonn? What kind of argument is that?
Your Alexa.com traffic rank is 710,836. So all of the sites ranked higher than that are also there because they don’t tell lies? Does this include socialistworker.org which is ranked 141,161?
I guess you’re just not used to people calling you on your bullshit. It’s sad that more people don’t because your argumentation skills are pretty weak. You should stick to insulting me.
I have a hard time taking seriously an uneducated criminal who is officially deemed to have no honor. But keep parroting your rhetoric because you’ve got nothing else.
I just get sick of this: “(Cop)pa” shit. I can not be anymore clear that we are not friends, but really, by typing her name like that, can you come across as anymore childish???
Victor, you have officially reached the dumb-ass finish line.
Oh, I’m about positive that his dumbassery has no finish line.