Mojave Veterans’ Cross stolen
Apparently, sometime Sunday, thieves made their way into the Mojave Desert and stole the 7-foot cross that was at the center of a partially-settled SUpreme Court case, according to CBS2;
The National Park Service says someone cut the metal bolts holding the metal-pipe cross to the top of Sunrise Rock and made off with it Sunday night or before dawn on Monday.
Veterans groups say they’re outraged at what they consider the desecration of a symbol that was erected in 1934 by the Veterans of Foreign Wars to honor World War I dead.
So, I guess that’s how the Left will act every time they don’t get their way in the Age of Obama.
Category: Liberals suck
Find the people who stole it. Then nail them to it. That oughta be about right.
Let me guess the little dumbs**ts were exercising their right to not be offended. After they are nailed to it hook it up to an electric fence transformer NH.
I am beyond anger at this situation.
Those little bastards who did this better pray long and hard that the cops find them before any veterans do.
This thing wouldn’t have lasted the night here in Ohio. It sure might have been taken by the crazy lefties… but here in Ohio they’ve stolen the copper out of houses while the owners were at work, or on vacation, bleachers right out of the ball parks, plaques out of the cemetery… anything made of metal
There just aren’t words to describe how disgusting this is. Freedom of speech for thee but not for me.
How long until Sec Napolitano or Mayor Bloomberg announce that they think the culprits were right wing terrorists?
On the other hand, you could frame it as some strict conservative constitutionl constructionists honorably defending constitution (the establishment clause of the 1st amendment) and fighting despicable judicial activistism a la Scalia, Roberts and Thomas! Although I would never have borrowed it, I for one won’t miss the cross at all, and I hope it never reappears.
Same could be said for you too, Joe! 😉
Joe, You Liberal Dipshit:
Separation of Church and State was intended, and is properly interpeted as meaning that the Government cannot establish any particular church as the national church; prime reason that we even formed this country.
Typical liberal dumbassery to try to make the Constitution a dying document.
On the cross issue: First, get a new cross up there, temporarily, and then get the slimers that stole it, retrieve it, and have them restore it to its original condition, as when first erected, and make them replace it, with full press coverage. Security can be handled by whichever of the local Service Organization’s Posts wants the pleasure.
(the establishment clause of the 1st amendment) Sheesh!
Nuf Sed
Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote that the cross shouldn’t be seen merely as a religious symbol.
“Here one Latin cross in the desert evokes far more than religion. It evokes thousands of small crosses in foreign fields marking the graves of Americans who fell in battles, battles whose tragedies are compounded if the fallen are forgotten,” he wrote.
In dissent, Justice John Paul Stevens agreed that soldiers who died in battle deserve a memorial to their service. But the government “cannot lawfully do so by continued endorsement of a starkly sectarian message,” Stevens said.
I guess that means Stevens is against a “starkly sectarian message” like Arlington.
Hey Joe; I think you are a little mixed up. It’s freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
Quote me Roe v. Wade again sometime soon.
I say we sneak out there and put another cross back up.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…” To me, that means no christian symbols, or any other religious symbols. Simple enough concept, but some fanatics just can’t take “no” for an answer. There must be some other way to respect soldiers than with a blatantly religious symbol.
Joe, you’re such a miserable jackass — it’s a religious symbol, yes, but it’s also a monument to our fallen — shame on you for making this a political issue.
You obviously do not understand the separation clause — it’s about establishing an official faith, which this cross does not do in any way shape or form.
Note how you don’t even care that this was illegally torn down, and on private land?
[…] This Aint Hell: So, I guess that’s how the Left will act every time they don’t get their way in the Age of Obama. […]
Joe, why did you leave out the part about the government not making any laws impeding the free excercise of religion? The Government did not put up that cross nor did they maintain it. There is no right for you to not be offended, be glad because you offend everybody here.
My 2 cents, build a bigger cross than put claymores around the base…
Anytime the gov’t so much as winks at a religious symbol, Old Tanker, it puts its imprimatur on it. That was gov’t land before the sneaky method they used to get around that fact (a bogus sale to a private party). When you’re dealing with an entity as powerful as the gov’t, little messages count. And it is a very slippery slope, especially with a bunch of moonbat, revisionist religionists trying to push the gov’t down that same slope. As much as I repsect our fallen soldiers, I am offended by the symbol of the cross. I welcome you to subscribe to any kind of irrational fiction you want, just not on the gov’t dime (i.e., my dime), and not on their land (i.e., my land). That’s freedom of religion. And why would you want to put Claymore up there in the middle of the deseert – doesn’t he have better things to do?
Richard, I would not personally steal the cross either, as I mentioned in my post. But to paraphrase Clarence Darrow, “I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure” – well, I’m not gonna miss that cross.
[…] WWI memorial cross stolen from Mojave National Preserve – Jonn Lilyea, This Ain’t Hell […]
Once again, Joe, BZZZZZZ!!! Wrong answer! Perhaps had you read the documents the Founding Fathers wrote, or perhaps read some of their quotes, you might realize that they were in fact a group of guys who had a pretty strong Judeo-Christian ethic, which influenced everything from our court system to the branches of government itself.
BTW–you **WERE** aware that land WAS private land when the cross was erected, were you not? And that there was movement to try to revert that land BACK to private hands? I can only hope it does, just to watch your fucking head explode when you realize you can’t do jack shit about it anymore.
I can see why you’d be offended by a cross–recoiling from it and all that.
This ruined my night, I’m so pissed.
Maybe if I cement 3 crosses across the street from Joe’s yard I’ll feel better in the morning.
NHSparky,
A few quotes by Thomas Jefferson – ’nuff said.
– I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature
– Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
– In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
– Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus
– The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and in-grafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man
– It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (i.e. the Book of Revelations), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherence of our own nightly dreams
Well, Deirdre, now you know how I feel every time I see or hear of a government sanctioned religious symbol.
If you folks really gave a shit about honoring veterans you wouldn’t use this monument as an excuse to force the government to endorse your religion. Let’s replace that piece of crap with a memorial that honors all the veterans, not just the christians.
A few more for ya, ri-tard: (BTW–the leftist revisionist claim that the FF were deists and not truly religious is a load of horseshit.) “We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!” -John Adams “ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” -Benjamin Franklin “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.” -Alexander Hamilton “The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.” -Patrick Henry And since you wanted to bring up Jefferson… “The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.” “Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.” “I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.” “God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (Something tells me you haven’t been to the Jefferson Memorial, or else you might have recognized that last one…) Oh, but why stop there, dipshit? “We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.” -James Madison At the Constitutional Convention… Read more »
And another mouth-breather heard from. Have you any idea of the history of that cross, charles, or would you prefer we also take out all the crosses in Arlington and every other veteran’s cemetery as well?
“So, I guess that’s how the Left will act every time they don’t get their way in the Age of Obama.”
Not just in the Age of Obama, Jonn, but always.
Anytime the gov’t so much as winks at a religious symbol, Old Tanker, it puts its imprimatur on it.
So by giving you freedom of speech does the Government give it’s imprimatur to assbaggery or douchenozzleness?
Charles,
I’m a Pagan and I haven’t any problem with the monument as it was constructed. That cross has been a symbol for some 25 centuries and recognizes more than Christianity. It has been recognized by the US Supreme Court as a valid historical symbol, so you might want to back the h3ll off your “religion” argument.
Why do these people keep talking about what the American government DID when they erected this cross and IGNORE the fact that the government did not raise it- it was their when they aquired the land. Truth never interferes with their argument.
I didn’t used to care back when christians were somewhat benign and harmless, before fundamentalists tried to rewrite the constitution and history to make this into a “christian nation”. Now they insinuate their presence anywhere and everywhere in a full court pressm – some dream of imposing a christian version of sharia law, with stoning for adultery, disobeying your parents, etc. Don’t laugh! There is no choice but to push back with equal force.
Hmmmm…guess Joe doesn’t know his history very well. FWIW, I’m also against a federal amendment regarding marriage, that being something that should be decided on a state level. Aside from that, Joe, how exactly have the “fundamentalists tried to rewrite the Constitution (note the capital C in a proper noun) and history?”
I find it fascinating, Joe, that you find all sorts of plain and simple straightforward words in that Amendment, but you probably argue against the 2nd amendment and the right of the individual to keep and bear arms; don’t you? I suppose you support muslim students getting special prayer rooms in schools to accomodate them during Ramadan? Do you also support their being able to wear the hijab in school? Do you support the use of public government funds to provide foot baths for muslim students in a public college (my alma mater)?
If you want to be a strick constructionist, then I already know the answers. However, you have made it clear in your past postings that you only see the Constitution when it suits your leftist agenda, just like your messiah Bobo.
NHSparky,
By declaring the constitution was divinely inspired, by claiming we are a christian nation which flies in the face of the establishment clause and history, with comments like these from Mike Huckabee, a frighteninly mainstream christian fundamentalist moonbat: “And that’s what we need to do — to amend the Constitution so it’s in God’s standards rather than try to change God’s standards so it lines up with some contemporary view”, and on and on. They are persistent, fanatical and ruthless.
back when, joe? when was this when these benign christians just start rewriting history? yeah, because they didn’t previously have more influence than now… have you ever seen a book from the turn of the century, the fifties? My god, man, how old are you? 25? you mean, back when you didn’t NOTICE? or weren’t so religiously OPPOSED to them? lol
I agree with Sam Harris. All religions are irrational, but some are even more irrational than others.
Back when, BooRadley? Yes, there have always been fringe wingnuts, the 50’s is no exception, but it is only recently (the 80’s ?) that the christian right mastered Madison Avenue style brainwashing techniques, ensuring an endless supply of money; only recently they formed these frightening think tanks; and only recently that a large portion of the US population, rendered brain dead by TV, became gullible and fearful enough to actually buy into that load of crap.
Oh, stop it already, Joe. I seem to recall prayer in school well before your “fundamentalist assault” of the 1980’s. Well, tell me, who is it that’s assaulting whose beliefs, Joe?
Funny, when we were required to read that prayer in grade school in the 50’s, I didn’t believe even then, but compliant kid that I was, I still mouthed the words. Wish I’d had the courage of my convictions to refrain from parroting those words. The prayer was inappropriate. But that was back before the well orchestrated fundamentalist push for a christian nation and all that other nonsense, so it didn’t seem so threatening then. Again, I would eliminate every government reference to god and religion – if you want to be superstitious and believe in magic, do it on your own time and your own dime.
Some things to consider. The first is an open declaration by one of our country’s first administrations, interesting to say the least. ARTICLE 11 of the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796 Treaty of Peace and Friendship, signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796 (3 Ramada I, A. H. 1211), and at Algiers January 3, 1797 (4 Rajab, A. H. 1211). Original in Arabic. Submitted to the Senate May 29, 1797. (Message of May 26, 1797.) Resolution of advice and consent June 7, 1797. Ratified by the United States June 10, 1797. ARTICLE 11. As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. Now Know ye, that I David Humphreys Commissioner Plenipotentiary aforesaid, do approve and conclude the said Treaty, and every article and clause therein contained, reserving the same nevertheless for the final Ratification of the President of the United States of America, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate of the said United States. [Approval of Humphreys] To all to whom these Presents shall come or be made known. Whereas the Underwritten David Humphreys hath been duly appointed Commissioner Plenipotentiary by Letters Patent, under the Signature of the President and Seal of the United States of America, dated the 30th of March 1795, for negotiating and concluding a Treaty of Peace with the Most Illustrious the Bashaw, Lords and Governors of the City & Kingdom of Tripoli; whereas by a Writing under his Hand and Seal dated the 10th of February 1796, he did (in conformity to the authority committed to me therefor) constitute and appoint Joel Barlow and Joseph Donaldson Junior Agents jointly and separately in the business aforesaid; whereas… Read more »
Jacobite,
You had me there, until you took a hard right turn at the very end. A symbol of deep respect….if you’re a christian. For someone who might be Jewish or Muslim or Hindu, or atheist, not so much.
Joe@40 So what you are saying is you have a right to not be offended? Where is that in the Constitution?
No, no, no, snipe–you don’t understand–he’s all for HIS free speech, but God (yes, I said GOD) forbid someone should say something he doesn’t like.
No, Nucsnipe, I am used to being offended, and since I have offended so many people it’s only fair people get to offend me. But when it comes to religion, because of the tendency of its adherents to insinuate it into every nook and cranny unless slapped back, I am hyperviligant about keeping every trace of it out of our gov’t. Just a plain and simple concept. Keep every bit of it out of my gov’t, but do what you want, within the law, on your own time with your own money. I think a cross on gov’t property is a small but significant step in the “establishment of a religion”.
Why not, Joe? Obama and the rest of the liberal would replace the word of God with the word of the state. Merely replacement of one religion with another. Or perhaps you choose to ignore the words of Frau Pelosi the other day, telling church leaders to go out and preach to pass immigration reform? She’s a real winner to talk about any kind of shit–frankly, I’m surprised there isn’t a priest who hasn’t stepped up and told her that her stand on abortion pretty much denies her the right to Holy Communion. Wouldn’t that be a kick in her botoxed crotch?
No Joe, I’m not a Christian. Not that it matters, but I’m an agnostic. It takes as much ‘faith’ to be an atheist as it does to be a Christian, and frankly I have none. Signs and symbols are merely that, signs and symbols, and all manner of meanings can be assigned to them based on your philosophy, education, and beliefs. To believe the cross is simply a Christian symbol because it’s used so prevalently by the Christian sects is to deny the simple ‘symbol’ any other meaning, and who are you, I, or anyone else to decide that is it’s one and only purpose? You wish to see it that way? Fine, get a law degree, put in your time, suck enough butt and get yourself nominated to the Supreme Court where you can argue it out with people who are currently far better educated than yourself and far better qualified to make the distinction. In the mean time they have spoken, so have a Coke and a smile.
As an aside, I suppose you think the swastika is also a Christian symbol? It was used for a while as a stylization of the CROSS by the Catholic Church after all.
Just remember, the cross as a symbol existed long before Christianity did. Hmmmmmm
You know Joe, you wouldn’t be offended half as much if you put as much time into research as you do into opening your yap. Metiphorically speaking of course.
Jacobite,
Yeah, technically I’m an agnostic and not an atheist – 99 and 44/100% percent sure there is no god. Thought the distinction would be lost. But you’re incorrect, being a whisker away from being a pure atheist is not an act of faith, in fact it does not take any faith at all – all it takes is an empirical point of view. I wake up every morning waiting for new evidence of god to be presented, but none ever is. In fact, in 10,000 years of civilization, not one shred of evidence exists for god. Lots of nice stories, but zero evidence. If there was a scintilla of real evidence, you can be sure it would have been trumpeted far and wide by now. So you go where the actual evidence takes you. Call it atheism, agnosticism, it’s all based on empiricsm.
As for the Mojave cross itself, if fundamentalist organizations were not engaged in a no-holds-barred attempt to insinuate their beliefs onto every aspect of this country, I might relax a little. At this point it is a completely adversarial relationship. But I can see it now – first they might purport this particular cross is not religious, it’s an ancient, respectful symbol so therefore it can be used on gov’t land. Then later, someone will use that same “innocous” symbol as proof that we are in fact a chrisitian nation – why else would a christian symbol be used on gov’t land? Their moral rectitide is so great that no trick or slieght of hand is beneath their dignity. So I repeat this beautifully simple premise – absolutely no gov’t involvement in religion, religious symbols, etc. – nothing, nada, zip. No camel’s nose in the tent that we have to keep slapping back.
Actually, some believe there is empirical evidence for a higher power, Including some of the greatest minds ever to exist,
Nicholas Copernicus
Sir Francis Bacon
Johannes Kepler
Galileo Galilei
Rene Descartes
Isaac Newton
Robert Boyle
Michael Faraday
Gregor Mendel
William Thomson Kelvin
Max Planck
and yes….
Albert Einstein
Now before you go spouting off any of Eintein’s quotes about a ‘personal’ god, remember we’re talking here about evidence for a higher power, not proof of the Judeo Christain God. And one of Al’s greatest lines was “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”
As for atheism and agnosticism. While agnosticism requires no faith at all, because it doesn’t claim to actualy believe anything, any amount of atheism requires faith. While you claim there is no conclusive proof that a god exists, ergo no god, one could also say there is at the same time no proof that a god doesn’t exist. In the absence of proof for a belief you are left with what? Faith. Faith that your limited knowlege of your existance and the enviroment you find yourself in IS as you believe it to be even in the absence of conclusive proof.
“While you claim there is no conclusive proof that a god exists, ergo no god…”. Yes for the time being there is no proof. I like the saying, “A good scientist discards two or three long-cherished theories before breakfast every morning”. I’m still waiting for that evidence of a god to come in, at which point I hope I will be forthright enough to discard my current theory (99.9999% support of athesim). In the meantime, before that particular evidence comes in if it ever does, I have to create some kind of model to base the world on. Science, i.e., centuries of very smart people standing on each other’s shoulders, testing and agreeing with each other’s findings, and creating empirical models – that is where I am currently at. It’s the best any of us can do. My current model does not have any evidence, or need, of a god.
Arrgghh! I wrote a couple of paragraphs, and then it hiccuped when I went to post it. Damn. Try again later….
And now, there it is. Go figure…..