To stop the slap fight
For those of you who may or may not have noticed there’s been a slap fight going on in the comment thread of this post about a VFW post commander who was busted for stolen valor among other things. The slap fight was between two VFW members, one, Ray Strischek, accuses the other, Kevin Martin, of falsely claiming to be a Vietnam veteran.
Hondo got tired of it and decided to do a FOIA on Martin and here’s that FOIA;
Hondo summarizes;
I have seen both Mr. Martin’s DD214 and the results of a FOIA request regarding his official records. His DD214 issued on 28 December 1973 apparently did not list all decorations to which Martin was entitled. Per Martin’s official records on file at NPRC, he is entitled to the Vietnam Service Medal (VSM) – and is therefore entitled to call himself a Vietnam Veteran.
Martin’s official records apparently show that he was assigned to the USS Butte and made the late 1972-early 1973 cruise with the USS Butte as he claimed. During this cruise, the crew of the USS Butte qualified for the VSM. And his DD214 shows no lost time, so Martin apparently was not confined onshore during any part of that cruise. He thus must be presumed to have been physically present when the crew of the USS Butte qualified for the VSM, and is thus entitled to that decoration – and Vietnam Veteran status.
We could debate the merits of recognizing those who only came within 100 NM or so of the Vietnamese coast during the period of eligibility for the VSM to qualify as Vietnam Veterans until the cows come home. But rules are rules. Under the rules in effect regarding the VSM at that time, apparently Mr. Martin qualifies.
As to why his original DD214 wasn’t accurate: that’s not terribly uncommon. I know of one individual with 5 different DD214s – 4 of which required later correction via issue of a DD215. Errors sometime get overlooked at time of preparation, and personnel are often determined eligible for additional awards or decorations after discharge. An example: most who served in Korea since 28 July 1954 now qualify for the Korea Defense Service Medal (even those who went there TDY 30+ consecutive days or 60 days total qualify). However, the medal wasn’t authorized until 2002 – and issue of the medal didn’t begin until after the design was finalized in 2004.
I’d personally recommend Mr. Martin request an updated DD214, or a DD215, reflecting his correct status to avoid future misunderstandings regarding whether or not he is a Vietnam Veteran. This link may be helpful.
So maybe that will lay this to rest. Thanks, Hondo.
Category: Veterans Issues
Damn Hondo….good work!
No thanks necessary, Jonn. I was among those who originally wondered about Mr. Martin’s eligibility – and I frankly expected NPRC to confirm that he wasn’t. But per NPRC and official Navy records, Kevin Martin is entitled to call himself a Vietnam Veteran.
Thanks for running the article. Vietnam Veterans deserve respect, regardless of how they served, and didn’t always get it when they came home. Same is true for Vietnam-Era Veterans.
Thank God that’s over.
Well you learn something new everyday. According to your little blurb about the Korean Defense Service Medal I qualify since I did two tours of duty in the ROK (86-87, 94-95). I also qualified for the Cold War Certificate. I am not holding my breath waiting on either one of those things showing up in mailbox anytime soon.
Same here, considering I’m pretty sure I’ve got 60 non-consecutive days in Chinhae, not that it really matters for anything.
The most hazardous thing I ever saw there were the cab drivers between there and Pusan.
@4 & 5: It won’t show up in your mailbox unless you ask that it be awarded and prove your eligibility. Hell, those of us who were on active duty at the time the Korean Defense Service Medal came out had to request that it be awarded and had to prove our eligibility.
Top–like I said, that would be pretty cheesy on my part, and considering I’ve been out for over a decade now, that and $3 will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
I will concur with Hondo, though–my DD214 only shows one NAM, but they printed that up while I was still on terminal leave and my second NAM was getting approved. The Navy’s Awards database shows me as having two, and I’m sure any FOIA request would show two.
But again, that and $3 would get me a cup of coffee. And I didn’t need to show those awards for eligibility in the AL and VFW.
Just A Grunt: If you’re still serving, send copies of your OERs/NCOERs/orders for your tour in Korea to MILPO and request they add it to the awards section of your OPMF. No service stars are authorized for multiple tours, so you only need to document 30 days consecutive/60 days nonconsecutive in-country from either tour to qualify. If you’ve gotten out but your records are still at HRC, you might be able to do the same through them and request they issue a DD215 reflecting the new medal. I believe contact info for HRC is on their web page.
It’s technically a campaign medal for Veteran’s preference purposes, so it’s actually worth something more than just adding another item to the ribbon rack.
NHSparky: damn, someone else who’s actually been to Chinhae? This is a first!
Only visited the place once, as I recall. But it seemed to be a rather nice though smallish compound.
“Vietnam-Era Veterans” ??
When did the gov’t. first use the “era” nonsense ??
How about IWO JIMA Era veteran ??? Seated in a Pentagon chair AT THE TIME ??
INTENTIONAL misleading ??
Doctor–they’ve been using Vietnam-era to cover benefits and such since the late 1970’s, IIRC. They were definitely referring to it when I went to boot in 1984.
But I hear ya. My (thankfully) former Congresswoman, Carol Shea-Porter, used the phrase, “My Vietnam-era Veteran husband” as an attempt to sound like she knew what the fuck she was talking about when it came to veterans, despite the fact he did two years at Fitzsimmons AMC in Denver in the early 70’s and never left the states. Of course, she emphasized the Vietnam and not the era part. Same ditz who got endorsed by the VFW PAC (which we discussed at great length here) and who put out signs saying, “ENDORSED BY VFW” with “VFW PAC” in itty-bitty letters beneath. Even after the VFW told the PAC to pull ALL candidate endorements in 2010, she still kept the signs out.
Which is just one more reason I’m glad she’s my FORMER Congresscritter.
No, doc, it is intended by those of us who actually use the term to accurately describe the period in which we served as a short-cut to explain that we were in service during the Viet Nam era but are not Viet Nam vets. I got very tired of having to explain the differnce, and to make DAMNED sure that I was not misunderstood and seen to be claiming to BE a Viet Nam vet when I am not. However, I did serve honorably during that time frame and supported some very important missions in Viet Nam during that service.
All to say, I am VERY proud of my honorable service during the Viet Nam era. But I am not a Viet Nam vet. If the short hand, self-explanatory use of the language disturbs you, then it is YOU who has the problem, not we who have “been there, done that,” but not in Viet Nam.
Dr., by being “Viet Nam era” I qualified for ‘old school’ GI Bill benefits. I went to school on the old GI Bill where I went to school and the VA paid for all of it, not this ‘I give a dollar, they give two’, etc.
“Doctor–they’ve been using Vietnam-era to cover benefits and such since the late 1970?s, IIRC. They were definitely referring to it when I went to boot in 1984.”
Yeah. My grandfather’s grave marker (mid to late 70’s) has “Korea” on it and he was reportedly perfectly happy with having been a plumber in Germany at the time and never claimed otherwise.
“Cold War” would’ve probably been more appropriate, but I don’t even know where those markers come from. Everybody knew he was a “Korean War-era” vet, but I guess they have to put something on there.
My dad is a Vietnam-era vet; he somehow got sent to eastern WA with a buddy while everyone else in his A-school went to Vietnam. He spent his days frying birds with a big ass radar and his nights picking up on high school chicks.
…which is where Mom and my older brother come into the picture. But I digress.
NHSparky – Navy boot in 1984? I’ll assume Great Mistakes given the Nuc thing. What months? I left there just before Christmas in 84.
The Butte wasn’t a 100 miles out. In March and April the Butte fully loaded went into the mined harbor as part of operation endsweep. the Iwo Jima and minesweepers were there. We stayed for four days. That ship was 804 feet long 6 decks of ammo if you think the was a fine time the kicker was we were told the Navy knew where the mines were. It was the period that the Americians were trying to get our people out and if that didn’t scared the bastards fine but it sure in the hell wasn’t 100 miles out. Try riding around 8 million pounds of explosives in a mined harbor. No direspect to the other veterns but we did our part
We lost a 20 year old navy airman on July 4, 1973 during Operation Endsweep. He was crushed to death by a CH53 door getting it ready for takeoff.Just doing his job on the flight deck. I get the distinct impression from alot of combat veterans out there that serving your country doesn’t count for much unless you’ve experienced enemy action. I think veterans should respect and support each other no matter when or in what capacity they served.