Ellen Haring and Jim Crow basic training

Ellen Haring, a former Army colonel who famously sued the Pentagon because she wasn’t allowed to compete with her male peers by serving in combat arms units, wrote in Task & Purpose last month that the Marines are cheating female Marines out of good coombat training because they are conducting separate basic training classes for males and females. She compares the separation to Jim Crow laws of the Old South;
The problem with the notion of separate but equal is that we have a well-established history that documents the poor outcomes of such a practice. The military did it to Japanese Americans and African Americans, but eventually discarded the practice. We have only to look at the discredited Jim Crow-era laws that segregated people by color to know how this establishes structural inequalities and perpetuates bias and discrimination. The reality is that separate is never equal. In fact, “separate” creates a very negative two-class culture that disadvantages one group, but cloaks the disadvantage by claiming that it actually benefits the minority group.
Decades ago, the Marines experimented with mixed basic training and found that they were cheating their trainees and went back to the separate units. The men, the Marines most likely to end up in combat, were held back from their potential because a unit is only as good as it’s weakest member. Haring complains that the pipeline for female Marines is narrow because there is only one training battalion for women;
Because the Marine Corps maintains a narrow training pipeline, just one battalion for female recruits, they ensure that women make up less than 8% of the Marine Corps. This, in turn, causes the only battalion that trains women to be perpetually understaffed. The result is that there are negative training outcomes for the female recruits. They don’t receive as much instruction and the women graduate from boot camp with lower average training scores than their male colleagues.
Maybe there’s only one battalion because only 8% of the people who volunteer for the Marine Corps are women. Haring implies that there would be more female volunteers if training was de-segregated, but she offers no proof, just more words. I’m not aware of any females who can’t get into the Marines because of this narrow pipeline. Is there a line at the recruiters’ offices? There is also no evidence that Women Marines aren’t trained as well as their male counterparts because of segregation in basic training. The Marines have been forced to allow women into their combat units, but I guess that’s not good enough for the social justice warriors like Haring. Now she’s just making excuses, like when she sued the Pentagon for her own piss-poor performance as an officer in the Army.
Category: Marine Corps
Well, what do you expect from someone whose written work equates the term “valor” with formal recognition for same? As far as she is concerned, existing definitions, facts, truth, and objective reality shall be malleable and must conform to her SWJ whims!
Addendum: I can’t wait to see what IDC SARC has to say about the photo, though. (smile)
May I venture a guess?
Three guesses, and the first two don’t count.
Now there’s a proponent of “equal opportunity.”
“I’m a woman, I want to be treated equally” “But it’s to hard, it should be easier because I’m a woman” Can’t have it both ways. It’s ironic that people claim they want equality, only to cry foul when they get it.
Bingo!
Cognitive dissonance-it’s how the left rolls.
For instance-http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/transitioning-public-schools/comment-page-2/#comment-7869405
As for conflict on the far-left, there is now such a thing as a TERF: a “Transgender Exclusionary Radical Feminist.”
These are mostly lesbians who have been hounded and persecuted for not being willing to have sex with their M>F “sisters,” particularly the ones who still have penises. The M>F people have now informed us that their penises are “female” penises, and so should be perfectly acceptable to lesbians.
You can’t make this stuff up.
And to think I could have made it through an entire day without knowing that. Which part has the small Japanese guy tying complicated knots?
“Which part has the small Japanese guy tying complicated knots?
Don’t know-that sounds way outside my sexual experience. Maybe IDC SARC can provide an answer from his, er, varied background.
If she’s ex-Army, why is she writing about the Marines? And why doesn’t she find a new hobby, like counting butterflies for the monarch census?
She’s just bitching because she can. Nothing to see here. If IDC SARC says he’d hit it, he must be desperate.
IDC SARC would hit anything he could fit his thang into.
Let’s make a list!
He’d hit:
– a cardboard tube from a roll of paper towels
– an empty wastebasket
– the cap off a can of whipped cream
– a tire rim, and the tire, too
– one of those big rock arches you see in canyon country
– an open rabbit hole
– an empty 55-gallon drum
– Snake hole
– bee hive
I’m sure he has already tried all of the above.
Oops, pushed the wrong button.
– a knot hole in a fence
– the exhaust pipe on a car
– the suction hose on a vacuum cleaner
The grill on a GMC pickup.
– the hole in a cinder block
– the crack of dawn
– a female porcupine (very, very carefully)
– the hole in a doughnut (making it a glazed one)
You all are just jealous because he is hung like a bull…
…mosquito.
You DO realize that when IDC SARC gets here and comments, he’s going to make all of us cringe and go looking for brain bleach, right?
The hole that you put the fuel hose in on Bernath’s airplane. Lord knows Bernath doesn’t use it.
Ex,
My first thought as well. Ex Army, meddling in the affairs of Marines.. WTF!?
Dear Haring,
“Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy, and tasty with catsup.”
Since this bint is EX-Army (emphasis, EX!), I’m hoping someone comes up to her, and as rudely as possible, tells her to STFD and STFU!
Not that I’m ever going back to Foggy Bottom again, but if I did run into this silly bitch somewhere, I’d probably point at her and start laughing.
Ex,
Even better. From what I understand, Libtards have absolutely NO sense of humor, and hate to be laughed at.
You just have to keep it up, not make it a one-time event.
That means I’d have to follow her. Eeeewwwww!
No, not follow. Just in your everyday-to-day downtown visits, if you run across her, stop, back up, and run over her again.
You mean like this?
BTW it’s certainly NSFW
Dumb bitch! I mean even with a college degree she is as head-up-her-ass as any Berkeley professor. All rhetoric, no experience. She’s all butt hurt because she doesn’t have a CAR and therefore that is her excuse for not making it through the promotion boards. BULLSHIT! She was and is a malcontent and every commander she ever served under knew it. Jim Crow? Please, give me a fucking break. That is a stretch far beyond common sense. The Blacks and Japanese she speaks of were…MEN, not women. If you want more women coming home in body bags Colonel, then vote for Hillary or Sanders you ass hat! But until YOU have served in combat and seen the truth of it, even for men, keep your uninformed, ignorant mouth shut and find a good retiree bridge club to pester and generally fuck up.
Correction, “She doesn’t have a CIB”.
“. . . even with a college degree. . . ”
Many people become SOOOO educated, they become overeducated. For too many, there’s only so much cranial room, so when they stuff in more edumakation, they lose an equal (if not greater) portion of common sense.
Include most (if not all) flag orificers, lawers and politicians in the above description. (add to the dog pile)
She’s educated beyond her intellect.
Probably can’t cook or sew on a missing button, either. I’ll bet she asks someone to make peanut butter sandwiches for her, because she thinks bread only comes with sandwiches.
I will add that the Navy does graduate mixed recruit companies at Great Lakes.
Why do I always think of Starship Troopers when this issue arises?
I think it is because of the ubiquitous sex scenes. 😀
You’re a horndog.
Sparks = IDC SARC??
Yea, I’d hit it!
Sparks and dnice – both horndogs
Starship Troopers (the novel) posited psychic powers and intuitive abilities to pilot starships, and gave these disproportionally to women. That made it easy to find top slots for everyone who wanted to serve and take it seriously.
Reality doesn’t come out so neat.
According to Mabus, they weren’t called Cockswain either! They were called, Countersunkswains. 😀
She should consult LTC Kate Germano about what happens to officers who want to raise the standards for female Marines.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/07/07/kate-germano-fired-marine-corps-female-recruit-unit-commander/29763371/
NO! No, no, no, no, NO!
Think what you said, fer Pete’s sake! That’s a disaster of biblical proportions!
The universe would implode! The cosmos would ripple into oblivion! Stars would crash into each other!
Are you trying to destroy us all?
She makes to many leaps of logic to mention. However, I think there is some truth that one female RTBn doesn’t provide significant through put to meet demand. My former Starbucks barista had to wait 8 month to begin boot camp due to a backlog in training slots.
That’s about the average wait time right now and for the last few years for new Recruits in all branches.
Negative.90 percent of non senior army recruits ship somewhere between three weeks and 2 months
Yep, but the Army has many many many more BCT installations.
For the Marines I can understand it being a longer wait for anyone.
It’s also the same for male enlistees, which has more to do with the reduction in the services end-strength than it does with not enough training battalions.
Thanks.
Seems a rather excessive wait time, but I understand that there are multiple pieces to the puzzle when lining up all parts of the training pipeline.
What did this silly twatwaffle actually do in my beloved Army? Other than serve as a living example of the Peter principle. The fact she retired as a Colonel also proves that “fuck up and move up” is real
Exactly
She was a CA Ossifer.
I think that’s better expressed as “She occupied a CA officer TDA/TOE billet”, Claw. But that’s just me.
Yep, I think you’re right.
I don’t ever remember meeting or seeing any CA personnel at all during my time in the Army.
Someone tell me again just what does the CA Branch do. Are they the people who make sure the Stars&Stripes and USA Today papers make it out to the troops in the field?
Or am I confusing Civil Affairs with Chaplain’s Assistants?
Given when you served, Claw, you likely wouldn’t have ever seen CA troops. Until very recently, CA was virtually USAR-only (as in >90+% of the total Army’s strength in the USAR). As I recall, it’s still overwhelmingly USAR today.
I’m presuming you were being sarcastic regarding the CA mission. (smile)
When I was at Bragg in the 90’s the Civil Affairs battalion (96th, I think – the only AD CA unit at the time) was by far the most deployed unit on post. That’s because they were constantly sending CA personnel off to Africa, South America, Asia, etc, for various CA projects.
Believe Claw retired circa 1992, Martinjmpr. Not sure he was ever stationed at Bragg.
Retirement date was 31 Dec 91.
Spent my entire career in TOE outfits that were not authorized any female personnel.
Closest I ever got to Bragg was my ANCOC at Fort Lee in 1985.
Mainly was a Fort Carson/4th ID homesteader. (12 years worth)
Wow, 91? Did you know Elvis?
Elvis had been dead for well over 14 years at the end of 1991.
Nope. Didn’t know Elvis personally. But my company supply clerk, Corporal J. H. Christ, issued Elvis his bed linen, mattress, and TA-50 when Elvis signed into the 1/32 Armor at Freidberg.
I was out of the supply room at the time “conducting official business” and missed out on all the hoopla.
Are you sure Hondo? Because K said he just “went home”.
Yes Sir, a little bit of sarcasm was involved in the Civil Affairs/Chaplains Assistant comparison.
Just like I break out into a big grin and a suppressed laugh every time I think about the created position of E-9 SEAC that a certain someone pounds down everyone’s throat.(smile)
I see by Google-Fu that USAR CA outfits didn’t exist until the year before I retired.
Correct. There “were” two Active Brigades, but one is/was deactivated (Conventional 85th CA Bde) because it was useless.
The 95th Bde is still around, as are all its Battalions.
CA personnel counts are 95%ish Reserve and 5%ish Active.
CA has been around as “Civil Affairs” since before WW2. However, most CA personnel, up to 1992 were “71L” (admin clerk) and had CA as a designator because it wasn’t an actual MOS of its own. CA units were called “Military Government Groups”. In 1992 enlisted and officers became 38A. Around 10 years ago enlisted changed to 38B.
1993 was when the first CA AIT classes were created.
During WW2 there was a whole Division created to help with reconstruction and infrastructure, along with finding arts, monuments and archives (The Monuments Men).
Did some infrastructure, especially after the Armistice in Korea.
In Viet Nam the tag line “winning hearts and minds” became popular, which later caused some of us CA folks PTSD from hearing it so much.
They were around in DS/DS but mostly after the shooting to help rebuild Kuwait.
Haiti was a fairly big involvement for us.
The Balkans was a huge CA mission, for its time. Which included going to Kosovo even after 9/11 (which was the vacation deployment after doing Iraq or Afghanistan for many).
As they were tracking USACAPOC’s OPTEMPO around 2005, our OPTEMPO was about 120% because we had too many missions and not enough personnel to conduct them all. 25% of the population were in Iraq and Afghanistan. (In many cases, units were getting notice 4-6 months before they deployed.)
Even into 2008/2009 we were still sending over 800 personnel to Iraq and 300ish to Afghanistan.
It really took Iraq and Afghanistan for combat arms to know who the hell Civil Affairs were and “sort of” know what we do.
But in the 20+ years of the 80s, 90s, and 2000s that “she” was around, how many deployments does she actually have?
Yet, she wants to talk about what everyone else “should” do because she feels slighted for not being able to compete?
She made it to O-6 in Reserve Civil Affairs. Not too difficult to do as long as you do your schooling and are around long enough.
However, she retired and, as I understand, did so without even one Iraq/Afghanistan deployment. I believe she retired around 2003 or 2004? So, while we were deploying 1200 personnel from CA units a year, she “left” because she was only an O-6 and couldn’t “compete” against males for promotion.
There are only 5 O-7 positions in USACAPOC, but there are over 200 O-6s. So, without a deployment, her becoming an O-7 after 9/11 is a fat chance, even as part of the ‘equality’ fad. Plenty of CA O-6s have 3-4 deployments.
And as much as CA deploys, she’s “bitter” about not having the same chances as combat arms personnel? But, she never took the chance to go to Iraq or Afghanistan? That is ironic hypocrisy to the utmost. She’s a poster child for ironic hypocrisy.
Lars has got to be banging his head on his keyboard to keep from getting in this conversation.
Come on Poodle boy. Fill us all in on how CA really works or do you not need anymore research data?
There are plenty of twat waffles like Haring in Civil Affairs. A portion of Senior grades are a significant reason why USACAPOC was divorced from USASOC and kicked to the curb. (Rumsfeld made the decision, the dumbass) They enjoyed the benefits of being a part of Special Operations, but didn’t keep up the responsibility part, and often avoided the disadvantages.
Most CA troops though are just trying to do our jobs and support the missions as best we can.
Tactical and even Operational CA does fantastic work and knows what they are doing. The problem is “Strategic” CA, of which Haring was definitely a part of. Instead of learning how to be a strategic asset, they were often just interested in practicing tactical CA and reading the paper on drill weekends.
If you ask a CA Officer who is in the “Public Administration Officer” position in a CA Command (Strategic level) who’s focus is on AFRICOM about public administration in Africa, they would probably look back at you like you’ve got ten heads and say, “huh?” Though if you ask someone in a CA Company about their AoR, they can give you a brief introduction to it and tell you what the key issues are. That’s an O-5 versus E-5 problem we’ve had for a while now.
Am hoping to have the opportunity to one day explain a few facts of life to this fool.
Sure, she has the right to express her opinion. She does not have the right to disregard reason, practicality, and the rules of physics in the process, and still expect that anyone would respect her view.
Give me 5 minutes with her, preferably with her mouth firmly closed. If she’s allowed to also speak, it might take longer to bring her around.
Well, miracles do occur on occasion. But I’d guess this one to be beyond any reasonable expectation of actually happening.
“Some men (and women), you just can’t reach.”
I hear echoes of Strother Martin…
Let’s get her a date with Lars the Poodle! She can be a helicopter mom and he can be her lapdog.
That’s an insult to helicopters…
Her and Lars would have been Political Commissars in the Red Army back in the day… probably would have loved getting their rocks off sending people to the Gulag or Firing Squad for not following “doctrine”.
STFU Bitch!
Dicks and Vaginas are not equal and they never will be. Why is that so hard to fucking understand?
I never told the Navy how to sail. I never felt the need to tell the Air Force how to fly. And I’m sure as hell not stupid enough to tell the Marines how to train*.
With all due respect “ma’am”, stay in your own f’ing lane.
*My uncle would have broken a foot off in my ass if I did.
She’s retired now, you can call her twat waffle or whatever you like.
That’s the worst part of this. When she was in uniform, there were those who could keep a muzzle on her.
I just want to point out that the Recruit Depots don’t actually do any real combat training, that is all done at the Schools of Infantry. Non-Infantry males and females attend co-ed training at Marine Combat Training Battalion before moving on to their MOS school, while the infantry all attend Infantry Training Battalion.
By keeping the RTR’s separate does not actually diminish the training value for Female Marines, considered Marine Recruit Training. focuses almost solely on uniforms, close order drill and customs and courtesies. The closest a recruit gets to combat training is the rifle range, gas chamber and the Crucible at the end (which is really just a culminating event to help teach teamwork and selflessness).
So maybe Ms. Haring should stick to what she knows, which is obviously not Marine Recruit training.
Rephrase that to ‘obviously not much at all’, and you’re quite correct.
Ok so Sparks and I got called out as horndogs. But it’s tougher for young kids esp males to remained focused in a mixed environment. I think it would be different for Ranger, Seal schools because they’re older and we’ll usually insanely focused. I do have a vested interest as I have another cousin entering the service (no. 5 incl. Me) and I’d rather she not be in a mixed environment.
There is much wrong with Haring’s piece. For starters, she does not appreciate or understand the history that she wraps around her index finger to point at the USMC. Some of her errors are obvious. For instance, she writes of racial separation that “[t]he military did it to Japanese Americans and African Americans, but eventually discarded the practice.” She makes that statement as if the military was unilaterally invoking the separate but equal doctrine pronounced by the Supreme Court in 1896 or that the military existed apart from civil authority. But Haring needed to set the stage for her outlandish assertion that separating recruits by gender is the same as racial segregation. It isn’t. It isn’t the same legally. It isn’t the same constitutionally. It isn’t the same in effect. What’s more, it was the military under order of Truman that desegregated years before the rest of the country did so. And before that order came, the US military had a history of mixing races in one fashion or another. In that regard, I do not recall learning that the US military locked away its members of Japanese dissent as the civilian US did.
“The reality is that separate is never equal.” I can easily prove that to be untrue. Take a dozen eggs. Put six in one bowl and six in another. The eggs are separate and equal. Or take the Tuskegee Airmen or the Nissei fighters of WW II. Were they separate? Yes. Were they equal? No, but not in a way Haring would like to acknowledge: they were superior in many respects to their white counterparts. What Haring did was to apply the inapplicable Jim Crow standard to gender separation in the USMC. Eventually, Haring and the PC crowd will prevail and destroy another great tradition. I can foresee the day when the gender-integrated Boots memorize and recite both the great battles in the history of the Corps and a brief history of feminism in the US.
It isn’t the same legally. It isn’t the same constitutionally. It isn’t the same in effect.
All that is so, but her claims harmonize with the “Social Justice Narrative” (you know, lies that serve a supposed greater truth). We know enough to call her on it, but to those who react emotionally to claims of “unfair” and “unequal” what she has said here seems to fit. We are fighting a broad front propaganda war and the sad fact is that simple (though wrong) themes beat more complex truths more often than not.
I wouldn’t count on that, AirCav. November is only a few months away.
And as I have said before, unless it’s a specific location where everyone is crowded in like cordwood, there is no reason for any of this.
Women make up about 7% of the USMC about 13,000 total( Including those in training)
The current WM training BN is sufficient to handle the needs of the USMC.
The Marines lose about 1/6 or 17% of it’s strength every year.
In order to keep the Female % as it is Thwe Corps needs to recruit about 2300 Females a Year. There are 3 WM Training Companies. That means each Company needs to train about 750 recruits a year. Training is about 11 weeks, so with the break in bewteen Platoons a company can turn three training Cycles a year.
That means each company has to handle around 215 Recruits per cycle. I’m not familiar with the exact structure of the Female Training staff but male companies 6-8 platoons a cycle. Four to Six Platoons is more than adequete for that number.
Now, JAOD – you know better than to bring up those nasty things called “facts” and “logic” when they conflict with SJW goals. Shame on you!
It’s everyone else’s fault I am Turd.
Because if there’s anybody who is an expert on Marine Corps enlisted training, it’s an Army Colonel.