Army and Marines clash over MARPAT
The Army Times reports that the Army wants to change their duty uniforms again, so they’re looking at different patterns, three of them, including the Marines’ MARPAT design. So suddenly, the Marines, who by the way, borrowed the Army’s BDUs a few decades back are getting territorial about it with their Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps Carlton Kent pissing everywhere to mark his “proprietary” design;
The Corps owns the rights to MARPAT and wants to retain it for its own use, Kent said late last year. Marine officials said they have no beef with anyone researching and testing MARPAT, but they want Marines distinguished from other service members on the battlefield.
“The main concern for the Marine Corps when it comes to other services testing our patterns is that they don’t exactly mimic them,” said Kent, who is scheduled to retire June 9. “The MARPAT design is proprietary, and it’s important those designs are reserved for Marines. We just need to make sure each of our designs is unique to each service.”
That’s just petty. The best thing about being out of the Army, is that I get to tell sergeant majors (it’s not “sergeants major” by the way – some uber-pseudo-intellectual dink at the Sergeant Major Academy made that shit up) what I really think of them. SGM Kent; the DoD is cutting your troops medical care while they’re on active duty and they’re going to screw you out of yours when you retire next month…don’t you think it’s important for you to pick your battles?
Arguing over fashion decisions doesn’t serve your Marines well. If you were really that concerned about the uniforms, you would have spoke up during the BDU era about Marines rolling up their sleeves backwards so they all had white arm bands on both arms.
To quote COB6 who sent us the link; ” So aside from a couple of sniper rifles and useless landing craft, you can turn in every piece of equipment in the Marine Corps that was designed, tested and fielded by the US Army! Thank you for your service douche-bag, now retire.”
Operator Dan adds: Funny, I never saw Sgt Major Kent speak out about Iraqi soldiers and police officers wearing MARPAT:
In fact according to the Marine Corps Times:
Marine officials don’t seem overly concerned about the situation. The MarPat design is patented by the Corps and has not been licensed for use by anyone except Marines, said Capt. Geraldine Carey, a spokeswoman for Marine Corps Systems Command.
I would be more concerned about shady IPs wearing MARPAT than soldiers. But then again, this is the same Sgt Major who spent much of the last year spending a great deal of time fretting over a silly Facebook group started by former Marines called F’N Boot.
Category: Military issues
YY…i hear you. Had to put 7 guys on a Marine MEDEVAC out of AL QUAIM one long day. Came back later and worked w some Cobras taking out a mortar team at the bridge. Good times!
IIRC, the original plan was a joint venture between the Corps and Big Army, to save money. The Corps got tired of waiting and went their own way and viola! MARPAT. Big Army couldn’t get off the dime and screwed the pooch. So, I’m with the Marines on this one, wrt a who’s in the right issue.
On the other hand, we are broke. Figure it out and make it happen.
#47 JustPlainJason,
Now that’s cool! I see it only comes in Navy khaki. For easier access in the Goat Locker I imagine.
Sorry Marines I get you want to be special and everything but One team one fight.
personally I was disgusted when we switched from split pocket jungles to woodlands back in the 80s. crappy material, crappy colors, crappy pattern and huge ass Elvis collars. Ripstops didn’t, but they were a small improvement
Ah yes…..Lilyea? Don’t cha just love it when these inter-service branch rivalries erupt? Navy does this…Marines do that…Air Force does this…Army does that..but I’ll tell all ya’ll what really perplexes me? What the sam hell ever happened to plain old fashioned OD green? By the way, Marine & Army MP’s? We’re one in the same, nobody likes us! No rivalry there!
*cackle*
Want to savemoney, lets start with Marines! An organisation that has no natural fit in our national security pantheon and frankly that constant reference to that last altercation back during the Trueman administartionetween the Army possibly trying to elimate the USMC, kinda of a stretch, don’t you think. That is more then fifty years ago, The Marines have found ways to fuck with the Army more then that in the last 30! Shove it up your ass. How many times does the Army have to take what for the team but the Marines’ can’t even be asked to give up a simple uniform pattern is unreal. Someone already mentioned the BDU issue above.
The Army should rake the USMC over the coals over this. Typical Jarhead chickenshit. That patent belongs to the government which the Marine Corps belongs. When the Army ceases having to opcon brigades to support Marine generals in their own AOs then they can hold their superiority up.
As regards to equipment have the Marines’ turn in all their rifles, Abrams, and miscellanous goodies they have stolen over the years. When the Marines’ are forced to replace that death trap, the Opsprey, I hope the USA/USN have a patent on every other goddamn rotary aircraft possibly in inventory. You know for uniqueness sake. I won’t even mention some of the other Marine Corp wonder acquisitions over the years, like the Ontos.
Maybe thats the lesson though, the Army infantry should secede from the Army. Raise the banner of Saint Maurice(patron of the infantry), and become its own institution, that unlike the Marinesdon’t have to lie about actually being founded in 1775!
Sorry for any typos/spacing issues, edit issues in this format.
P.S. One last point, I distinctly remember general James Jones, when he was commandant of the Marine Corps in the 00′, being asked point blank(I think on the Beltway boys on Fox) if any of the other services had shown any interest in the USMC’ uniform, of which he was wearing at the moment. he had some oblique reply like he hadn’t been approached or something along those lines. He, the Commandant of the entire Marine Corp, knew it was likely all the way back then.
P.P.S. To what ever dumb ass Marine aboved mentioned the BDUs in Vietnam, there no were BDUs then, I think your thinking of the Tiger Stripes, thats completely different.
Can’t we all just get along????
“Want to savemoney, lets start with Marines! An organisation that has no natural fit in our national security pantheon…”
That is the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard in my life. End yourself.
re #52,
That was my recollection too but I couldn’t find a link to back it up. Back in the 90’s the Marines wanted to go in on a new uniform with the Army but the Army passed and so the Marines coughed up all the development money themselves. Few years later we have MARPATs. I think part of the reason they’re so possessive is that they got forced to pay for the whole thing.
Didn’t the MARPAT/digicam style come from folks wanting to find better camoflauge while hunting deer?
LOL there is a Sergeant Major Academy? WTF do they teach there? “This is how you tell someone where to put the chow.” and “This is how you tell someone where to put the latrines.” sounds difficult.
As a logistics guy, this entire discussion is idiotic. Utility uniforms, BDUs, ACUs, whatever the services want to call them should be standardized and reserved for use during combat and field operations only. Service uniforms are already in place and unique to each service…have been for a LONG time. Why not make those uniforms more functional for daily garrison wear (comfortable fabric, stain resistance, etc)?
In combat, we should outfit our troops in the most effective pattern for the environment they serve…who gives a sh*t who developed it. This is a good place to ask a Navy guy why/where blue camo makes sense? If I fall off a ship, I am much mor interested in sticking out than blending in. All this uniqueness is costing the services MILLIONS and its a pain in the ass to support when deployed.
Marines distinguish themselves by thier actions, pride, and professionalism…little EGAs on thier camo won’t change that.
#64 Achilles,
Golf, and how to chew out a First Sergeant. That latter course is difficult because Diamonds are trump.
Agree with LtCol B USMC. Self-inflicted wounds suck.
Funny, that comment about logistics. I can remember our Marine units providing the doggies with food water and everything else for over two months during the runup to the first gulf war when they didn’t bring that shit with them, and their logistical tail wouldn’t wag. Screw you and your logistics, doggie. The only things we get from the Army are what we steal from you when you leave it laying around.
I looked at that uniform the Iraqi has on, and while it may be made from Marpat material, it is not a Marine uniform. Marpat’s don’t have that “Nehru” type collar on them.
#61 “End yourself.” Yeah good come back. Try again douche.
Ladybug, except for when they are in the field, the individual Marine has to BUY his cammies. They are not given to him, so the government isn’t buying him shit. All uniform items are purchased. That is why one gets a uniform allowance. Nor does it cost the government anything since we buy them at the government’s cost. During thebuild up to the first Gulf War, if we wanted new cammies, we had to buy them as well. even though we were on field duty. The war itself didn’t last long enough to wear a set of utilities out.
A host of wrong answers from Cedo Alteram. Another Marine hater who is jealous of our ability to get it done. No biggie, there are lots of them.
Point one, if Truman and his fellow former doggies had been able to rid the world of the Corps, the ARMY would have gotten their untrained undisciplined asses thrown totally out of Korea. It took the First Marine Brigade to hold and push out of the Pusan Perimeter as admitted by the senior Army General present there. And the Eighth Army’s sterling performance at the Chosin Reservoir WHERE THEY RAN FROM THE ENEMY and left the 1st Marine Division to cover for them and make their own way back out of that trap, really demonstrates how unnecessary the Corps was and continues to be, and how great and effective the Army is.
Point two. The first Cammies as Marines call them, were being issued by June of 1968. When I went through recruit training in 1978, I got two sets of Sateens, and two sets of green ERDL Cammies. And as a point of fact, the Corps has never gotten more than 7 cents of each defense dollar, making us have to be a hell of a lot more efficient than any other service. No 2 Billion dollar a copy bombers for our use.
#70 – I didn’t say Marine got all their uniforms for free. I said the development of MARPAT was paid for by the taxpayer, so any patent the Marines hold for it is the property of American taxpayers. As such, if MARPAT is the best camo pattern out there, it should be made available to all the other services, too.
#71 Right on target USMC Steve! Cedo is definitely way off base on the Corps! If it wasn’t for the Marines in Korea using helicopters to move men and supplies during combat ops during the later stages of the war, the Army would still be trying to figure out what the hell to do with them besides medevac. The Marines were the ones that took the POS M16 and made it an “adequate” combat rifle with the intro of the M16A2. It was the Marines that made it to Baghdad first during OIF, using vehicles that were designed for amphib assaults, paired up with the M1A1. The Marines have had to fight for their existence since the beginning. And damn right the taxpayers get more BANG for their buck the Marines! SEMPER FI!
#71 No Steve wrong again. No one turns mountains into mole hills like Marines, especially in their inability to understand that the Army has no service identity like that! Its simply to vast an entity and few armies do. Soldiers identify with their unit and to a lesser extent branch, not the whole Army. I guess when your two damn divisions, who can sit on the board with the other chiefs, you will have pull out of all disproportion to your numbers! Maybe after the second World War the old 18th Airborne Corps should have done the same and became a seperate branch.
Korea.
A)One the Trueman administration gutted all of our ground forces, naively believing that conventional conflicts were obsolete with the advent of nuclear weapons. It wasn’t just the Marines. The only reserve formation we had that I can recall was the 82nd and if deployed would leave us with no strategic reserve for europe.
Did you see the Marines fed into the war piece meal Steve? Me either? With almost no proper antitank weapons of any sort. What about that airwing? Oh wait the Army didn’t have one. Show me any Army formation, any reenforced Regimental combat team, that had anything like the Marine Brigade’s firepower.
B) Its amazing the Marine’s selective memory of the Chosin reservoir. Never mentioned are the the three regular Army regiments, one of which would evetually be practically destroyed holding up nearly an entire chinese division. This also doesn’t change my earlier point about the Marines’ having a single division in the war(s) and the Army several. That would be a better comparison when it comes to effectiveness.
C) Running from the enemy, like the Marines at Bull Run.
Not a hater Steve just a correcter. No one pulls more inservice nonsense then the Marines do. They are also the first to shout “inservice rivalry” when someone shines the light right back at them.
Steve one last point, ERDL isn’t that the pattern the Army developed back in the late 40s, kinda of ironic don’t you think with this MARPAT conversaion.
#73 To many tangents to go off into. Suffice to say, the 3rd ID was the first into Baghdad.
Hey USMCSteve. Every US military unit that were deployed to Korea fought under pretty damn harsh conditions. The worst of it began when a Chinese Communist Force (CCF)division joined the battle with the NK’s at Chosin. One part of the Korea War history you clearly don’t seem to know little and or anything about, it was US division commanders that ordered withdrawls to the 38th Parallel when 4 more divisions(you got that, 4 CCF divisions?) of CCF engaged the battle.
I was going to stay out this here little argument, but? It is time for you read about what was going on during the Korea War HERE!
Courtesy 1st Cavalry Division Association.
I can say that I am a soldier and am positively sick and tired of all the uniform musical chairs our service has been involved in over the time that I have been in. They sent us surveys when they wanted to know about the new service uniform that they wanted to use to replace the class A uniform but had it phrased so that you couldn’t disagree with it but rather made it sound like you were offering suggestions on variations of a choice they had already made. One thing that I will give the marines is that their dress uniforms remain fairly consistent. The army has a bunch of marketing gurus trying to appeal to focus groups. Tradition means something when a kid is looking to make a choice of service. That is a big reason for the marines’ recruiting success. The army should have gone to pinks and greens to replace the class A uniform (which looked like a weird business suit). They should have left the dress blues alone instead of making them an “any occasion” uniform. We also need to get rid of that black beret too. Okay, I’ll take a breath now. Sorry for the rant, but I just needed to get that out. As far as combat uniforms, I have worn the DCU and ACU in Iraq and the Stan respectively and in my opinion, I would rather go with the Multicam than the MARPAT. I just hate digital camo. And as an aside, I seem to remember being in Baghdad already when the marines rolled in.
#76 I said first to make it TO Baghdad. Not first into Baghdad. Read the post. I am tired of always having to defend against people that have a chip on their shoulders when it comes to the Marines. Yes we are on the same side, and we should get along better than we do. But the fact of the matter is, dollar for dollar, man for man, the taxpayers get a better return on the money spent on the USMC, than any other service.
If the USMC were the same size and scope as the US Army there still would be a lot of the same issues, get over yourselves.
Marines do a great job and they should be proud of their service to the nation. When you talk about Army vs. Marines you are compairing apples and oranges. A more apt comparison would be Rangers and Marines.
Now back to the dick measuring.
#79 Then this is a brand new explanation, because every Marine I have ever encountered has always implied “to” meant “in”. I’m sceptical how do you measure to? First to the closest waterway? Suburb? Facility? What about distance, 10, 20, 50 miles? Depending on the criteria you use your likely to get a different answer. It is plausible, convince me. Explain.
As for a chip, I haven’t one. Marines don’t like being told that they by far have the thinnest skin of the services. The Army sees the Marines at most as an annoyance. The USMC sees the USA as an mortal threat, and this leads to some really outrageous over compensation. They have a habit of spouting half truths and factual inaccuracies about the Army. Whether out of sincere belief or because it coincides with their interests, its a habit. Thats it.
80# “A more apt comparison would be Rangers and Marines”, based on what. A good comparison for combat effectiveness would be unit to unit, less service to service.
First of all I would like to say being a prior Marine, now active Army, (thank god the enlistment is almost over), that the Army had it’s chance back in 2005 to procure the exact same uniform the corps Now wears. Check the Marine corps times titled “How the Army took your uniform and made it better”. The Army wasted a ton of money testing a uniform that was ready to go, flipped the Collar up and put Velcro on it. The point here is that the Marines don’t get allocated a lot of money so they have a get it right the first time attitude that you all call arrogant and “chip on the shoulder”.
Maybe the Army should start with a standard head gear. Let’s get that right first. This is embarrassing and is only the tip of the ice berg with what’s wrong with the Army. So I ask, six years and eight proposed uniforms later why are we on the Marines doorstep again? If the Army wants to copy something then it should definitely start with the leadership department. A uniform won’t change that.
Read more -traebiz@tripod.com
@ #81 I was referring to a size comparison, if you’d like to you could use a BCT vs. a Marine Brigade. The point was comparing a leviathan like the Army to a much smaller USMC is not an apples to apples comparison.
But as you stated it’s not about being fair or logical, it’s emotional…so whatever.
The real Story of the battle of Chosin:
The war between the Army and Marines would get more vicious in Korea. On November 27th, 1950 a division of Marines 25,000 strong, was ordered to proceed along the west side of the Chosin reservoir, while a much smaller task force of 2500 Army troops went up the eastern side. Waiting for them were 120,000 troops of the Chinese Communist 9th Army Group.
The Army soldiers fought a running battle for three days against a Chinese force eight times their size, in temperatures as low as minus 35 degrees. Despite the death of two commanding officers, the task force lumbered south with over 600 dead and wounded soldiers loaded into trucks, fought through repeated ambushes, and was even mistakenly bombed by US Marine aircraft. Finally, just four miles from safety, the convoy was cut off by the Chinese and annihilated.
385 men made it to the safety of American lines by crossing the frozen Chosin Reservoir.
The First Marine Division, with the help of allied air power, managed to fight their way out of the Chinese encirclement. Marines claimed that the Army had disgraced itself, and passed on stories of US soldiers throwing down their weapons and feigning injuries. A Marine Chaplain even made statements to the press and wrote an article accusing army soldiers of cowardice.
There were so few officers and men left from the Army task force that the Marine’s claims were accepted as fact. But newly released Chinese documents prove otherwise. The Army task force fought bravely against overwhelming odds before being destroyed, and their stubborn defense bought time for the Marines to escape the encirclement.
Nevertheless, Marines to this day hold up the fight at the Chosin reservoir as proof of their superiority over the Army.
#82 A dispute about Marpat is hardly being at their doorstep. Nevermind again.
Agree about the Beret, blame Shinseki. Thats a problem thats easily fixable.
The origional comment was that I was the one with the chip.
83# Agree
#84 SHHH!!!! Don’t tell the Marines that.
#82 I am speaking as a person that has served in both branches my opinions are not biased but truth. Look at the uniform and boots issued to deployed war fighters. Have you deployed? Thats another new uniform. It costs money. Do you wear a beret while deployed? You can blame who you want, but it shows a lack of discipline to change uniforms and accessories for recruiting purpose or whatever. If you can’t come up with a standard uniform for YOUR Soldiers, borrowing one won’t solve this problem. I just wish some one had the common sense to just go back to DCU or BDU. It worked in desert storm just make it in digital…………..
#84 there is nothing truthful you can say or prove about Marine history. You weren’t there. All I know is that what the devil dogs and Soldiers did there was epic, and I will leave it at that.
#86
1)I mentioned the beret because you brought up the head gear.
2)I’ve always said that the least of the ACUs problems is it’s universal camoflage pattern. Its just a poor design, but again that is another long topic. I know I have commented on the beret, ACU, and blues in other threads(I think I have anyway) so I’ll stop there.
I really am not sure whether Multicam or Marpat is the better pattern. I don’t even think there is a desert Multicam or if there is I haven’t seen it. I am open to the idea it may very well be Marpat though and yes the Marines’ should hand it over if so. I doubt the Army would adopt the Marine’s uniform cut, even if they got Marpat. Neither service has ever adopted the other’s cover have they?
If for the sake of argument, the Army should go with Multicam and after a few years service it is discovered to be superior, should the Army be able to deny the USMC access to it? The answer is of course not. So why is that same point not valid here? Its not Marine Camoflage, its just plain camoflage!
#86 Last two sentences. Again tell that to the Marine’s who have selective memories. Its not simply “Marine” history is American history.
#87 This is what I saw after my deployment last year as a I MEF POG:
Army has ACU’s. 8 months or so later, I see their POGs get Multicam, and bitch about the constant change in uniform. Everything from Dress uniforms to the Salad Suits to cammies. They fucking hated it and were tired of having to be issued and re-issued gear (because, of course, ALL of their 782 gear [or flaks, kevlar covers, pouches, etc.] was issued in ACU). All of the gear has to be DRMO’d, because the patterns don’t match, and they’ll be out of regs.
And yes, on at least 4 or 5 different occasions, big-wig Army has attempted to either antiquate the Marine Corp, or absorb it. If you don’t believe me on this, read Lt. Gen. (Ret) V. H. Krulak’s First To Fight autobiography/historical reference. He was there, fighting the Army, and President Truman ( If I remember correctly) on the reduction/destruction of the Corps. It was actually Congress that has saved us every time. Read your history.
http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/reviews/2009-02-09-last-stand-of-fox-company_N.htm
http://www.amazon.com/First-Fight-Inside-Marine-Bluejacket/dp/1557504644
#88 I actually did read Krulak’s book a few years ago(thats the father, not the commandant right?), have it in a box somewhere. Could have sworn he just died a few years ago, didn’t he?
SharpSpoonful, read the comments above and you’ll see I(and others) have already commented on the distorted view the USMC has of the Army and why that is so(and often wrong). This entire thread had its origions in the camo, and quickly became Marines’ crapping on the USA because they had a weak argument for exclusivity of the pattern.
As an example read my comments about Korea.
The point i guess is to just get eveyone back to the same uniform to save alot i for one think it WILL have to happen eventualy,For example the BDUs from photos ive seen or infact not have seen “To be more to the point” from Operation Urgent Fury back in 83,you see divisions of both the Armys 82nd Airborne and its infantry divisions ‘Except for the Rangers’ as well as some from the USMC using them in droves and All of them seemed prety happy wearing the same thing and nobody complained up until 2001 when MARPAT was adopted,Plus if the Army has attempted 4 or 5 times to absorb of abolish the Corps and FAILED each time they did then i Don’t think they’ll go for a 6th or 7th time Different Hats or Covers and sleeves prety much take care of the looking different issue for the most part,You all fight under the same colored flag No need for different looking uniforms it just waste cash Simple fact.Oh and BDU celebrated its 30th birthday would have been nice to see all the branche’s including the Marine Corps dawn the BDU for that little unkown occasion.
OCCUPY USMC…………. !!!! The Army of the poor vs. the army of the rich
This is also the same SgtMaj who threw a hissy fit over an Air Force recruiting commercial so loudly that the AF yanked it. It was an AF DI (or whatever they are called) bragging how their recruits are in better shape than some Marines.
I think personally most men in the Armed Forces are dicks and even with serving an entirety of 15 years I have resolved myself to the fact most of the reason we go to war is because of men who cause the wars I refuse to serve my country anymore because of the petty arguments and male attitudes such as displayed here in these posts. I encourage all of my fellow females to do the same and let the idiots fight their own fights like they want alongside their gay counterparts who are men also and let us women find something else better to do…I know most women don’t like the idea of a women’s corps but trust me…after serving with ignorant dicks…you might change your. Ind if it is where it should be and oh, just one more thing, yes, I fought in the war and was not what you would call a fobitt. I went outside the wire and not once complained and did what I was told without question…and one more thing… Thanks to all you spreading your legs…you make those of us who are legit be taken as a joke!
Oh as far as the uniform is concerned…who the hell cares as long as you are clothed while in combat! really! I’ve wasted enough time even reading this crap…ugh! If purple barney uniforms help win the war I would wear that!
1. This thread is almost a year old.
2. Have you been drinking?
Why yes I have thank you, my question is…have you? You are reading this are you?
Huh.
Nevermind…..
Obvious troll is obvious.