Fence sitting as a war policy
I read somewhere that a compromise is an arrangement whereby people who can’t get what they want make sure nobody else does either. and that’s the way this drizzle is shaking out in Afghanistan.
According to the Associated Press, President Obama is ordering only 30,000 troops for his drizzle over the next 6 months and then he’ll announce he’s pulling them back out in 19 months. So, I’m guessing there won’t be much action for the next 19 months while the Taliban takes sabbatical.
The Washington Times writes that both sides in the US aren’t happy about his decision;
Two liberal Democrats and a moderate Republican lawmaker are set to announce their opposition to the president’s plan Tuesday afternoon, just hours ahead of Mr. Obama’s nationally televised address at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, N.Y. And Republican leaders, who support the president’s call for more troops to Afghanistan, have qualified that support by saying that any talk of an exit strategy won’t fly.
That’s what happens when you’re supposed to be a leader you try to please everyone. Everyone expects to be made happy and no one is. Every 20-year-old buck sergeant learned that on the first day of PLDC.
ADDED: In this link from TSO, the American Legion has it’s reservations about the policy, too.
Category: Barack Obama/Joe Biden, Terror War
That is because every 20-year old E-5 learns that you can’t vote “Present” on tough decisions. As I was told, “Even if is the wrong decision, at least you made one.”
Give the man some time. He has never had to make a decision before. Shoot, even the family dog was potty trained before he got it.
Plus there was more pressing things…
Meanwhile our military will die so the president looks good.
M*****F*****.
A couple of your iconic conservative spokesmen had this to say:
“Dan Senor, a former Bush spokesman in Iraq, applauded the White House and said he was ‘quite encouraged by the president’s decision. It sounds to me based on what we know that it is a very good decision and I applaud him [for it]…’ ”
“Tuesday morning… Karl Rove said that if reports of a 30,000-plus-troop surge were true, it constituted a definitive action. And if the president does do that, I’ll be among the first to stand up and applaud,’ Rove said.”
Link:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/01/bush-officials-rnc-praise_n_375400.html
UNlike you Joe, we get our opinions from within, not from outside sources like Dan Senor and Karl Rove or Markos and his idiotic masses.
Wait, these guys are my iconic conservative spokesman? And which group does “group think?”
TSO,
Well, to be honest I don’t have any “inside” sources, have to sift through the flood of information out there, which is why I stop by your site, to get alternate perspectives. I know many conservatives wait with bated breath for pronouncements from Rove, just thought it was interesting, and entirely out of character, for him or any conservative to say anything even remotely flattering about Obama. And, Dutch508, I doubt if any kind of decision having to do with Afghanistan will make “the president look good”; it won’t be sorted out within his term(s), it’s a lose-lose for him, he was dealt a very bad hand by…. oh nevermind.
Well, if you had paid attention, you would have noted that I am damn near silent with regards to Obama on Afghanistan. In point of fact, I was a huge cheerleader after his pronouncements in March about how this area would be his area of interest, and how he was in it to win it. Since then I have been silent with ragards to it. I agree with Jonn that he sat on his ass too long, but I also get why he did it. And I am not jumping his shit now. Get the troops over there, get the ANA and the ANP up to speed and get the fuck out. He can still win this thing, as I would argue that Bush won in Iraq. Now, the full historical take of Iraq may take a while, but it seems pretty clear right now that the surge won that war, and Obama canwin this one.
So don’t try putting opinions in my mouth when I haven’t voiced them, ok dickwad?
~And, Dutch508, I doubt if any kind of decision having to do with Afghanistan will make “the president look good”~
yeah…his giving the speach at West Point has nothing to do with him looking good.
~Now, the full historical take of Iraq may take a while, but it seems pretty clear right now that the surge won that war, and Obama can win this one.~
Can win, but won’t. He’s already measuring the white flag when we pull out in three years.
Oh, and suck my ****, asswhipe.
Hey now! I assume that was for Joe, even though you quoted me last.
I never wipe an ass that is not my own.
TSO and dutch508…I am SOOOO sorry….I apologize profusley…I swear, I just took my eyes off of Joe for just a second so I could go draw his bath water…He told me that he was just finishing a book report for his 5th period teacher, and that he would behave if I went upstairs to check on dinner and to see if the tub was full! I just naturally assumed that he was telling the truth…Please forgive me, I promise that I will try to do better next time…I have taken away his playstaton and his internet priviledges…he is GROUNDED for the next 2 weeks…Now Joe,please apologise to these nice men…
TSO-yeah…it was… Read the latest from the UK?
US troops to start leaving AFGHANISTAN in July 2011. Out by 2013.
Yeah…it’s gonna be a gooooooooooood speach.
Obama speech.
Kill me.
Now.
Just watched the speech. Looking over the auditorium full of brave cadets, I am not ashamed to admit a tear came to my eye. I believe he chose West Point not to make himself look good, but because he wanted to look the cadets in the eye, take responsibility. Agree or disagree, you have to admit he made his own case. Comparing the speaking style, logic, thoughtfulness and command of details with the previous office holder, well I feel proud of my President again. He reminded me of my privileged position as an American citizen, and feelings of pride resurfaced after being buried by eight years of craven leadership. I am behind him on this 100%. They’ll be bumps in the road, adjustments will have to be made, but I have hope. OK cynics, have at me…..
Joe, that was pretty good. Someday you might even be able to keep a straight face while pulling that line of bullshit out of your ass. He was in campaign mode.
Oh, and for the record, Benedict Arnold sold out the American army at West Point about 230 years ago. History repeats itself once again.
Oh boy, I was hoping that I would be able to get through at least one thread without Joe popping in with his usual drivel.
That being said, I just can’t bring myself to waste any time, or energy, going through the many flaws within Joe’s posts. I will jut consider the source and leave it at that.
Hey, Joe, did you notice the “brave cadets” and even the serving officers falling asleep? And sitting on their hands at what the White House thought were the obvious applause lines? Or, the looks of boredom?
If this dreck made you proud of your president again, you have a very, very low pride threshold.
I disagree(you said I could), and no, I don’t have to admit he made his case, for shoot and scoot in 7-11(wonder if Biden had a hand in that date?).
The date is not carved in stone. Notice he said we will withdraw responsibility. The conservatives mantra is all about getting people to take responsibility for themselves. How else can we let the Afghan government know they have to wean themselves from our tit?
Wonderful speech, announces the day we’re going to pack our bags and abandon Afghanistan for the 2nd time..
That just has to strike terror and fear in the hearts of Muslim Jackasses all over the world…
For months you guys have been hammering President Obama to listen to Gen. McCrystal. Here’s what he had to say today:
“The Afghanistan-Pakistan review led by the President has provided me with a clear military mission and the resources to accomplish our task. The clarity, commitment and resolve outlined in the President’s address are critical steps toward bringing security to Afghanistan and eliminating terrorist safe havens that threaten regional and global security.”
Are you happy now?
I have noticed that. He doesn’t lead….he just tries to please….everyone….and then it seems he can’t please anyone. Great post.
Actually, Joe, I would have been happier 80 days ago.
Yeahm Joe. I am happy the CiC has chosen not to listen to the General he picked, has told our enemy we will retreat in July 2011, and has sold us in uniform out to please his leftist backers.
Gen Mc. cannot, by regulation, speak ill of the Commander in Chief. His job is to take orders and try to accomplish the objective.
Joe, Joe, do you even read what you post? You made the case against your guy in the opening sentence in #19, “For months you guys have been hammering President Obama to listen to Gen. McCrystal”. Yeah, that’s what we’ve been saying, FOR MONTHS.. Thanks for realizing that.
Actually he gave the general 75% of the troops he ask for and gave the other 25% to the left wing anti-americans to appease them. I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but if I’m running AQ I sit back and cool it (maybe a minor strike once in a while) for two years and Afghanistan is mine again. This nut makes Dimmy Carter look like Patton’s advisor. The first Arab/American president isn’t doing too good on the American part.
Thing is, Obama has spent less than an hour in face-to-face time with his commander in Afghanistan. Yet, in the mean time, he’s found a way to get in 23 games of golf.
You’d think that, with a hot war on against an enemy determined to kill as many American citizens as it takes to bring the country under sharia law, POTUS might find the time to actually do what is in the nation’s best interest, vice his own.
Obama is a tool, a self-absorbed Chicago street thug, more qualified to lead union brawls than strategic operations against the nation’s enemies.
Anyone who feels comfortable with this man in the White House is an idiot, and not fit to wear the mantle of citizenship.
Joe, you say “the date isn’t carved in stone”. ok; why put it out there, then? You know as well as any other leftist that if he goes one day into August of ’11, you people will be screaming that he lied to you.
What your ilk will never understand is that a war isn’t run using a PDA calendar. You don’t sit around and go “It looks like I’m free on the 12th after 9:30; how about the rest of you? Good, pencil us in at 10 am on the 12th”. That’s not how it’s done. Just like we said that it couldn’t be done that way in Iraq.
If the President didn’t want to give the Taliban and AQ a date for which they would be able to start up again; then why give any date at all?
You talk of “we will withdraw responsibility.”, yet this isn’t a fucking board meeting, it’s war. The military doesn’t have a timetable in a war. Conditions on the ground determine our next move. Yeah, the Afghans need to take some responsibility, however, unlike ordering a double non-fat soy latte, it doesn’t happen that quickly.
If you are so big on withdrawing responsibly; answer why we’re still in Bosnia and Kosovo?? Does the UN set timetables on such matters during their useless “peacekeeping” missions? No, they wait for the first shots to be fired and they use that as their cue to GTFO.
It must be nice to base your entire perception of military strategy and war on political expedience and who’s in office. Of course, you’ve never been on the receiving end of warfighting by politics, so you give the answers I expect you to.
OldTrooper,
It is a dangerous balancing act for Obama, who after all inherited this mess from the incompetent dunce and the troll. Most contributors to this website tend to forget that important fact. With not even a tentative withdrawl date on the horizon, what incentives do Karzai and Co., and the people of Afghanistan, have to get their act together? I mean Afghanistan cannot remain our client state forever! But I admit, with a too-early withdrawl date, the bad guys can just wait us out. I could easily see where the tentative withdrawl date could be extended due to facts on the ground, but let’s at least get a rough draft of a plan out there. These are tough, tough questions. This is reflected by the fact that reviewing a broad spectrum of pundits this morning, they are all over the map on this. Even conservative, pro-Iraq War Thomas Friedman wants to get out very soon. There are costs to consider too – do we “save” Afghanistan at a cost of $5,000 per second only to gut our own economy, already in free fall? I don’t have the answers, I don’t have a crystal ball. I think President Obama’s speech represents a rational, logical, flexible starting point.
Ok, let me give you a couple of lessons in common sense. You don’t have to announce a timetable to the fricken world. Tell the Afghan leadership in private. Anyone with an ounce of that good ‘ole brain matter would be able to figure that part out. Why let the bad guys know? It’s not like we tell them how far we will go in interrogations, or anything; right?
That you view the previous President as you do means that anything anyone tells you will fall on deaf ears. you are far too biased to reason with.
As for cost: Let’s get political; shall we? Why does the left think nothing of pissing away billions and trillions of dollars on “social programs” that return nothing, yet lose their fucking mind over what we spend in war? I tell ya what, let’s recoup all the money pissed away on that fraud called “climate change” and use that to fund the wars??? We would be money ahead, since it is now out that the whole “climate change” thing is a hoax and that money could have been better spent.
As a leftist, I find it interesting that you would put out a word you have no idea about; logic. Use some once in a while and I wouldn’t have to answer stupid questions you pose.
OldTrooper,
“Social programs that return nothing”! You call investing in your own people returning nothing! OK, so forget about the millions of American citizens that you think so little of (why someone would spend a career defending countrymen they despise is beyond me) – what about infrastructure, decaying roads, bridges, hospitals, and on and on. Return nothing! I guess we have virtually no common ground to even begin a discussion.
Let’s talk $787 billion in stimulus, followed by $400 billion in pork in the stimulus add on? Let’s talk infrastructure and the fallacy of the tired mantra of decaying bridges, etc.(funny how in 2007 $40 billion was allocated to “infrastructure”, yet when the administrative costs and “other uses” came out, there was only $12 billion left) I’m not even going near hospitals, as most are not federally owned. Show me the 8% unemployment rate that the original stimulus, which was going to stop unemployment at 8%, occurred? It didn’t happen. Show me the millions of jobs magically created? They haven’t happened, either, except in the growth of federal government jobs. Show me what benefit welfare has had, other than creating a dependent class? Don’t try and bullshit me with an answer that can be refuted with statistics and actual first person experience. The list goes on and on, but I think you get the point.
I noticed you haven’t commented on my main points from above, which tells me you are waiting for a reply from the commie headquarters, first.
As far as what I think of my fellow citizens, you have no fucking clue. You, obviously think little of what the American citizens do on a daily basis in order for the government to take more taxes from us workers to put into their own pet projects.
Nice try on your bleeding heart, whining maggot diatribe, though. I felt a little twinge of the heartstrings.
I suppose in your warped thinking, common ground would be me agreeing with you, only?
You might think you can hide the timetable, but word would get out, esp.to the bad guys. The American people deserve candor and honesty, and to be treated like adults. It’s called democracy, as opposed to military dictatorship….
Actually Joe you are wrong. “Social programs that return nothing”!
We all care. I care about the people in the 15th and the 86th Congressional Districts of AZ. I also care about the:
1st congressional district of the U.S. Virgin Islands.
The 99th congressional district of the U.S. Virgin Islands.
The 69th and the 99th districts of the Northern Mariana Islands.
Puerto Rico’s 99th congressional district.
Mostly I care about the soldiers. Both those serving overseas and those used as background for appearances and I especially those that are told by their Chain of Command how to respond to a speech.
Last sentence should have read
“…I especially care about those…:
Hmmm, Brown Neck Gaitor, you see all those photos taken after the speech of those “background props” gathered around the President with big smiles on their faces waiting to shake his hand? Quite the well choreographed photo-op.
“You call investing in your own people returning nothing!”
Funny, I didn’t think giving the Chinese all our stimulus money to build wind turbines was considered investing in our own people…
Actually it probably was well choreographed. If you knew much about the Army you would know that COL. Somebodyorother was in charge of making sure we had a good diverse line of cadets ready to shake the presidents hand and smile. Every serious VIP visit illicits this dog and pony crap. Hell, I’ve help set it up.
Finrod,
Actually I’m surprised that the-powers-that-be would go to that extreme. Nonetheless, in that disorderly scrum of cadets, it would be hard to fake those very genuine-looking smiles in this particular case. They look entirely spontaneous and genuine. Psychological research in deception shows humans are good at detecting a fake smile, and those don’t look fake….
You said something in your post #32 that is kinda sticking in my craw: “You might think you can hide the timetable, but word would get out, esp.to the bad guys. The American people deserve candor and honesty, and to be treated like adults. It’s called democracy, as opposed to military dictatorship….”
Ok, let’s look at honesty and being treated like adults. How about the whole “transparency” issue from this administration; where they said any legislation would be put up for 5 days, online, before going to debate. hat hasn’t happened, ever, from this administration. In fact, they brought all these spending bills to the floor without even having them done, yet, and demanded a vote. No debate, just vote on something you haven’t read. It’s urgent, dontcha know!!!! That’s been the MO on both stimulus packages and the healthcare bill in congress. Yet, you have said nothing about that and in fact praise this President and administration like you will need a smoke afterwards.
You attempt to wave the flag as though you are the only caring soul on this website, however, the flag you’re waving is red with a gold star, hammer, and sickle. your attempts to show us how callous and un-caring we are is muted by your own biases towards anyone that doesn’t ascribe to your definition of what our democratic republic should be. As with other communists, you scold us and attempt to give us a civics lesson and lecture on democracy, however, you don’t believe in them yourselves, you just use them as talking points.
Maybe you ought to get together with Carl Webb and see if you guys can get some updated communist pamphlets. The ones you both have are out of date.
Common, age-old scare tactic, conflating helping fellow citizens with communism…..
Riiiiight, that’s why you are only concerned with a certain segment of fellow citizens. It’s not a scare tactic, boy, it’s proven truth. I’ve been around long enough to have seen and heard it all before, back when you were an itch in your daddy’s pants.
Another thing that I have observed in my lifetime is leftists are unbelievably generous with other peoples money.
What have you done today to help your fellow citizens, other than cheerlead for spending other peoples money?
OldTrooper,
I am probably more ancient than even you. I donate, within my means, to several casuses near and dear. I also help build trails locally. Taxation, redistribution of wealth – call it what you want. I for one would glady pay more taxes to support, say, universal health care for one, esp. keeping in mind that we have one of the lowest tax rates in the industrialized world. If lefties are “unbelievably generous” with other peoples money, conservatives, to generalize, outside of their close circle, are unbelievably fixated on their money, cold-hearted, selfish and Darwinian, even if their church won’t let them believe in Darwinism.
“I for one would glady pay more taxes”
Ain’t nuthin stoppin ya, hoss! Matter of fact, I want to see a scan of that check you cut to the IRS today. Our marginal personal income tax rates may be lower than some industrialized countries, but the AVERAGE tax rate is right in line. Couple that with the fact we have the HIGHEST corporate tax rate in the industrialized world, and you can begin to imagine why companies can’t move out of the US quickly enough.
LOL!!! You really are a peice of work. You say “selfish” and “fixated on money”, yet you can’t distinguish between charity and government theft. There’s a big difference. You may choose to give to a charity, but that’s different from the government taking from you to give to whatever they want. I will call it what it is, not what I want; redistribution. You may want to pay more taxes, but that’s up to you, that you want to decide for me, is where we run into problems. Until you get up at 4:30am and go to my job and work for my paycheck, that I use to provide for my family, then you can tell me what I can and cannot do with what I earn. Until that time, what I do with what I earn is none of your business, no matter how much you think it is. Kapiche?
Hey Joe: Remember way back on post #34 when you were babbling about “enthusiastic and genuine” in reference to the Cadets and the speech? Well, this is from Der Speigel :”Just minutes before the president took the stage inside Eisenhower Hall, the gathered cadets were asked to respond “enthusiastically” to the speech. But it didn’t help: The soldiers’ reception was cool.
One didn’t have to be a cadet on Tuesday to feel a bit of nausea upon hearing Obama’s speech. It was the least truthful address that he has ever held. He spoke of responsibility, but almost every sentence smelled of party tactics. He demanded sacrifice, but he was unable to say what it was for exactly.”
Kinda deflates your cheerleading session on your fantasy Prez; huh?
You don’t have to thank me now, Joe, just donate what you would have paid me to the charity of my choice.
And for the record, Joe–I’m his charity.
Shhhhh, Sparky!!! You were supposed to keep that quiet!! I know that the American people are supposed to know everything, so we don’t become a military dictatorship, but Jeez!!! Now everyone will want to be the charity of my choice!!!
C’mon, Trooper–SOMEONE has to do all that research on long-term effects of overconsumption of beer!
Well, I’ll have to look up that Der Speigel article. Yes, the reception during the speech did seem kind of cool, but the gathering of cadets around him after the speech seemed spontaneous and genuine. Anyway, maybe there is one thing we can agree on after all, the virtues of beer……
Joe, come on. “The reception during the speech did seem kind of cool”? You do have a gift for understatement, don’t you? MMMM MMMM MMMM. I saw the same crowd shots you did, I saw boredom, disbelief, anger and a lot of sleeping cadets and serving officers. Talk about being tone deaf? Going in front of officers and men who’ve been to Iraq, and refusing to even acknowledge their service, and the results of the sacrifices people made there? Idiot!!!!
But, mostly it was a speech by a man totally ignorant of military values, and totally ignorant of this nations security needs. He started out good, talking of the Talib-AQ link, and the link to 9-11. Then he ignored the very groundwork he laid by just declaring that, like Joe Biden, he loves a 7-11, and he’ll make sure the nasty US troops are starting to go by that date.
Like someone else said, why would the Afghans want to be seen even talking to Americans, much less working with them. The Taliban will be taking notes, and final exam won’t be pass-fail, it’ll be live or die. All the Talibs and AQ have to do is lob a couple of mortar shells or fire off a Katushya every month or so, until the C-17’s start to ferry the supplies and troops OUT.