The injustice of the CIB
Yesterday, (formerly LT) Nixon sent me a link to a campaign website for a Republican candidate for North Carolina’s 4th District named George Hutchins. We giggled about how busy the website looked and I joked that it sort of looked like Homer Simpson’s webpage. The multi-colored text, the irrelevant pictures of Teddy Roosevelt, John Wayne, the Alamo, not to mention the tourism pictures of Ol’ George at Windsor Castle and some odd relationship with Sir Walter Raleigh and Raleigh, NC in his district. Somehow his visit to Windsor Castle qualified him to be Congressman.
Then I went to read his bio – lo and behold, he was claiming that he was in the same unit as COB6 and I in Desert Storm. The Second Armored Division (Forward) of Garlstedt, Germany.
Hutchins made a big deal about his SWAT medal and it’s THREE BRONZE STARS (which only means that he was in the theater before Jan 15th and after Feb. 28th, 1991) and his TWO Kuwait Liberation Medals (actually, ONE Kuwait Liberation Medal and ONE Saudi Arabia Defense Medal). But then he wrote some drivel about how the Army treated him unjustly and didn’t award him a Combat Infantry Badge (CIB) – because he was a 12B Engineer. So he joined the Marine Corps and convinced them to award him a Combat Action Ribbon (CAR) for his service in the Army.
I checked the Navy regs and they will award the CAR for people who earned the CIB or Combat Medics Badge (CMB) – but Hutchins had neither. So I emailed him and told me that he’d told the Marines that his combat engineers had been assigned as “mechanized infantry” in our portion of Desert Storm – that his job had been to ride behind the Bradleys and protect them from Iraqi infantry. As if our coax machine guns and 25mm main guns couldn’t.
Well, because of my questions, Hutchins put his DD214s on his website last night, and he did indeed get the Marines to award him a CAR. That’s y’all Marines’ problem. The guy degraded your CAR and our CIB’s reputation remains intact. If the Marines want to roll over for a legal specialist’s claims to combat service, that ain’t my problem. For the six months that I spent with that unit after Desert Storm, I had to listen to all kinds of complaints from tankers and clerks and cooks who thought they deserved a CIB, too.
If you folks want a CIB, join the infantry. The only time anyone wants to be an infantryman is when the awards are being handed out. George also took down some language last night that he had used about the Marines correcting the “injustice” of the Army’s failure to award him a CIB.
Here’s my engineer story from Desert Storm; our squad of engineers rode behind us with our company trains. About a thousand meters into Iraq after crossing the berm, our engineers had to go back to Saudi Arabia because one of their 12Bs had forgotten his M203. I asked Ol’ George if that had been him, but he didn’t answer.
I wouldn’t have mentioned this whole if George hadn’t been such a dick in his emails and on the phone when I called him. And I was curious as to why he made such a big deal out of;
The Main Attack Launched against SADDAM HUSSEIN’S elite Republican Guard Armored Forces in Southern IRAQ and KUWAIT, {February 24 – 28, 1991}, was spear-headed on the second day of the ground battle, by GEORGE HUTCHINS’ unit, which became known as OPERATION DESERT STORM.
That narrative doesn’t include the fact that “GEORGE HUTCHINS’ unit” went into Iraq more than a week before the ground war and fought a three day counter-reconnaissance armor/artillery battle in Iraq. So I still wonder if George was in 2AD (FWD). He got pretty defensive with me and finally hung up on me, so I have my doubts.
You can be proud of your service without embellishing and being a dick about it. If I lived in NC’s 4th District, I think I’d vote for someone else.
Category: Phony soldiers
But, Jonn, if you force this website into internet purgatory, how will I ever learn about Sir Walter Raleigh?
The CIB has always held a special place in the Army and is an award solely reserved for Infantrymen.
I remember after the Grenada operation that it wasn’t long before we started getting some of the 82nd Airborne guys over in Germany and they were sporting their CIB’s. There were quite a few Vietnam era guys who didn’t take too kindly to it and it caused some friction.
The bottom line is if you want the award, you need to walk in boots of Infantryman. Yes I was a little upset when the Army approved that new award, which I can’t even remember the name up, something like the Combat Action Award, but given the nature of the conflict I sort of have gotten over it.
Sort of.
Amen, brother.
Oh yeah and how do you ride behind the Infantry and protect them from anything. For the clueless, unless the Infantry has seriously screwed up there shouldn’t be any enemy behind them. The enemy are always to the front.
Our motto isn’t “Follow Me” without a reason.
Ok, so what if the Army waves its magical wand over your head and you are now serving in an infantry line company as a line soldier (not a HQ section bitch), but you do not carry a 11B MOS? You are not only walking in an infantryman’s shoes, you are doing his damn job for him. And what makes the infantry so damn special, the scouts are out way ahead of you in freaking Humvees finding the bad guys for you to shoot at? All combat arms deserve a combat badge of their own, and damn it if you are good enough to be in an infantry fire team or crewing a Brad then you should be able to get the CIB.
Who told you about The Wand?
The CAR simply isn’t the same award as the CIB so I guess, don’t quite understand what the fuss is about.
The guy may be a dick and a poor choice at the polls, or he may just be too busy to be bothered by someone who isn’t a constituent.
While you’re right that his website is busier than a Hawaiian paisley tuxedo, it is also likely to get him in trouble with the military.
The photo of him in Marine dress uniform is an official photo, which you can’t use for campaigns. And he is supposed to have a disclaimer about military info and photos not being construed as official endorsement. I got a crash course in this stuff thanks to a recent city council run, but he can get into quite a bit of trouble at the Congressional level.
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/134410p.pdf
As far as the CIB, there is infantry and there is everybody else. Get over it.
Ponsdorf,
The problem is the same as if as an Infantryman after I completed the Combat Lifesaver Course I then wanted to be awarded the Combat Medic Badge or Expert Medic Badge. The award is limited to those serving in a medical MOS.
Look I have served as a scout also, and while platoon sergeant I put in paperwork to get all of my what were then known as 19D’s a secondary MOS of 11C (Mortars) or 11H (TOW gunners) so that they could compete for the Expert Infantry Badge. Yes I was an 11B in charge of a bunch of Cav Scouts.
I have messed around with my share of demolitions and built my share of battlefield obstacles, both of which fall within the purview of engineers but I don’t claim any of their awards.
If the Marines wanted to give him some sort of award, well that is on them. The fact that he used some dishonest excuse and managed to bullshit somebody into giving it to him does grind my gears.
[…] or CAR – There’s the Rub Wednesday, November 4th, 2009 | Uncategorized Jonn over at This Ain’t Hell is on a bit of a tear about some politician not getting a Combat Infantry Badge from the Army, but […]
Just a Grunt said: If the Marines wanted to give him some sort of award, well that is on them. The fact that he used some dishonest excuse and managed to bullshit somebody into giving it to him does grind my gears.
Yeah but… It may be an ‘apple or oranges’ thing. The criteria simply isn’t the same.
This doesn’t quite seem like a John Kerry event.
Okay Jonn I went to this guys website and it screams PHONY in the same way his site looks like a bunch of crayons exploded on my monitor.
Here is another statement he put up that is just more evidence of this guy thinking he is a legend in his own mind.
“During the IRANIAN HOSTAGE Crisis, George Hutchins’ unit trained for a possible WAR with IRAN while waiting for RONALD REAGAN to enter office.”
I’m guessing he just wanted to find some way to invoke the name Ronald Reagan. To those in North Carolina who may happen upon this story, Run, do not walk, away from this guy. He is full of BS and if he is this way about inflating his military record then he is dishonest at best and I would come close to characterizing him as a fraud except he does have a verifiable record of service. He just couldn’t be content with serving and this sort of stuff is what you save for when you out having a couple of beers with your buddies and are trying to impress the bubble headed bimbo blonde at the end of the bar.
Also I notice he says he was a Hawk missile crewmember, but I don’t see the part about being an Engineer. His DD-214 must be a beauty.
Okay I am going to shut up now. Promise. But these guys need to be called out wherever they are found.
just went to his website.
holy cow. this guy is crazy. seriously. at least homer’s website didn’t scream, “I’m an insane person!”.
as to the CAR issue. From what I understand, the criteria for the CAR has changed dramatically over the past 20 years, and only recently has it been viewed upon by Marines as on par, in many ways, with the CIB.
However, (i could be wrong on this), the CAR, during the Gulf War days, was almost given as a campaign ribbon, as in, you were there so here you go. Marines on boats that launched missiles, dudes in kuwait who saw a fireworks show, and cooks who thought they heard outgoing artillery, were all given the CAR. Since then, the CAR has been given strict guidelines of when it shall be awarded.
But it sorta makes sense that this crazy person was approved of a CAR even if he was stirring the honey pots with diesel in it. I think right around the time that I got back from Iraq for OIF, we got word that direct IED attacks now fit the criteria for receiving a CAR, (rather than just having received fire, making a positive ID, and returning fire). Therefore, everyone who had a record of receiving an IED attack was retroactively awarded a CAR.
Now if this yahoo essentially said, hey man, i was in a combat unit in Iraq, and I did everything I was suppose to do to receive a CAR according to USMC standards (which back then was flimsier than a house of cards), i can feasibly see him being awarded a CAR.
Marines make mistakes too you know. We aren’t perfect ALL the time.
We had one guy in our unit with a CIB. He was in Grenada before becoming a tanker. We didn’t want a CIB, thought we should get something cool for tankers though like the “Combat Rescue the Infantry Badge” or some such thing! 😉
Where are the requisite trolls noting that we went after a Republican? Come one fellas, we know you are out there….
A couple of things on the CAR issue… It should be noted that the Combat Action Ribbon is a Navy/USMC award and there are different standards for the awards for the Navy and Marine Corps. For example, many Navy ships had their entire crew awarded the CAR simply for firing cruise missiles during Desert Storm or for having Iraqi Silkworm missiles shot at them. However, Marines serving on some of those ships did not receive the CAR. The same thing happened in 2005 when two Navy amphibious ships with Marines on board had two rockets launched at them in Jordan (they didn’t damage the ships if you recall). The Navy crews of both boats received the CAR but none of the Marines serving on board did. When I was in Iraq, one of the Navy EOD techs attached my company received a CAR for detonating an IED we found, but none of the Marines on that mission received a CAR for that action. The Navy EOD rated his CAR, but this was the incident cited on his citation (I know this because I had to write a statement on the action for his citation) Marines usually hold themselves to tougher standards when awarding the CAR. HOWEVER…. Individual units down to the company level still hold most of the discretion when awarding the CAR. Its usually up to a plt sgt/platoon commander or a 1st sgt/CO to submit the award. In many cases, many units blanket awarded the CAR for action in OIF/OEF or Desert Storm. I usually found this to be the case when battalion commanders or Sgt majors have not yet recieved the award. In other cases some units were extremely stingy on the award of the CAR or worse botched the paperwork and deserving Marines who endured months of actual combat did not receive. I personally know one Marine who was wounded in OEF by enemy fire and received a purple heart but was never officially awarded the CAR by his former unit. From my personal experience (and I am sure other Marines/Sailors can add to them), its… Read more »
Dan USMC said: Whatever, one of the first things I learned as a boot was medals and ribbons don’t make a good Marine/Soldier/Sailor/Airman.
There it is!
As I mentioned, this yahoo (judging from his website that is being charitable) does not appear to rise to the level of a John Kerry event, or even something that would stir those Stolen Valor folks to action.
OK, I had to go look at the website, and now I am having this odd flashing in my eyes from the wonderful mix of colors and caps. And a headache.
A Hawk missleman, training for war with Iran. OooooKkkkkk…
CIB’s are for 11’s. If you want one, go 11.
Hmmm, he wants to roll back the Civil Rights Act? Run away NC, run away fast.
This guy’a website looks like he was on the Electric Kool-Aid Test Trip bus when he composed it..but he’s certainly against Mary Jane. LOL
I’m a bit disappointed with the MC/Navy awarding the CAR so loosely. It does tend to cheapen it. Used to be that the CAR may have been somewhat comparable to the CIB. If they’re now given out almost like attendance stars in kindergarten, then that’s a shame.
That said, back in the day, I was a party of a unit that walked off the parade ground in protest when an undeserving officer was awarded a CIB. That officer was never seen again. There were some seriously pissed off grunts. The word FUBAR was invented for such as that occasion.
Don’t worry 1stCAVRVN11B, the Marine Corps does not just hand out the CAR. The difference is that it an award for actual combat service regardless what your MOS is. I recieved mine in Desert Storm for actually exchanging fire with Iraqis, but the rules were basically having crossed through the first minefield into Kuwait during a set time period. Iraq and Afghanistan have been very different. I was recalled from retirement and served 10 months in Fallujah and never recieved a CAR. I was even on a convoy hit by an IED near Abu Graib prison, but without casualties to help (thank you Lord) or targets to engage. It did not meet Marines standards so no award. Then again the Marines probably give the award regardless of MOS, because every Marine is considered a Rifleman first.
I just want a cool little badge. Maybe we can create one that covers chasing women and drinking beer (I wasn’t too successful at the former, but I excelled at the latter)?
On the serious side: We all should be proud of our service. Not everyone can be the frogman or Airborne Ranger. If everyone was the Special Forces guy; who would get them to their mission? Who would pack the chutes for the Airborne Infantry? Who would make sure that you had all your gear and who would issue it to you? Who would make sure you got paid? Who would be out there building a span across a ravine? Who would be defusing that roadside bomb? Who would be providing aerial support for those infantry? Who would load the weapons and fix them on that Apache that just saved your bacon from the bad guys?
Everyone has a job to do, not everyone gets to be infantry. If a person isn’t satisfied with the service they did render, and feels the need to inflate it to pump up their ego, or how others view them, then they have bigger issues. If they need to inflate it to make themselves look better to the public in an election; then maybe they’re not a viable enough candidate on the issues they should be focusing on and calling attention to.
The public has already been down the road of styrofoam parthanons, we don’t need styrofoam Vets.
Criteria for the Combat Action Ribbon are: taking and returning fire with the enemy. That is it. You actually have to be in a firefight. That would be combat action.
Criteria for the CIB is not the same. And from what I read, you only have to be in a forward combat area for 30 days, whether or not you swap lead with the enemy.
USMC Steve: That is correct. The Combat Action Badge, which caused a lot a friction when it was first considered, is roughly the same: You have to have been engaged with the enemy. I have heard from folks that were in actual engagements with Iraqi forces that weren’t infantry and they got nothing, while someone who carried an infantry designator, but never engaged the enemy, was awarded a CIB. The infantry types didn’t like the idea, so that is what started the friction over the CAB.
Well said Old Trooper! I was maintenance and my teams did a damn fine job. Something we were proud of. Every Bradley or Abrams or wheeled vehicle we fixed was another asset for the 19 and 11 series to use to destroy the enemy.
This is from the official decorations website and is the existing criteria for the CAR: b. Eligibility Requirements (1) Awarded to members of the Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard (when the Coast Guard or units thereof operate under the control of the Navy) in the grade of captain/colonel and junior thereto, who have actively participated in ground or surface combat. Upon submission of evidence to their commanding officer, personnel who earned the Combat Infantryman Badge or Combat Medical Badge while a member of the U.S. Army may be authorized to wear the CAR. (2) The principal eligibility criterion is that the individual must have participated in a bona fide ground or surface combat fire-fight or action during which he/she was under enemy fire and his/her performance while under fire was satisfactory. Service in a combat area does not automatically entitle a service member to the CAR. The following amplifying remarks are furnished as guidance. (a) Personnel in riverine and coastal operations, assaults, patrols, sweeps, ambushes, convoys, amphibious landings, and similar activities who have participated in fire fights are eligible. (b) Personnel assigned to areas subjected to sustained mortar, missile, and artillery attacks actively participate in retaliatory or offensive actions are eligible. (c) Personnel in clandestine or special operations such as reconnaissance, SEAL teams, EOD teams, and Mine Countermeasures operations are eligible when the risk of enemy fire was great and was expected to be encountered. (d) Personnel aboard a ship are eligible when the safety of the ship and the crew were endangered by enemy attack, such as a ship hit by a mine or a ship engaged by shore, surface, air or sub-surface elements. (e) Personnel eligible for the award of the Purple Heart would not necessarily qualify for the Combat Action Ribbon. (f) Personnel serving in peacekeeping missions, if not eligible by the criteria cited above, are eligible to receive the award when all of the following criteria are met: – the member was subject to hostile, direct fire, – based on the mission and the tactical situation, not returning fire was the best course of action,… Read more »
“TSO Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Where are the requisite trolls noting that we went after a Republican? Come one fellas, we know you are out there….”
Hutchins is no Republican. His run for office has been denounced by the GOP in that district and they are supporting a qualified candidate – Frank Roche.
Anyone can register as a Republican (or Democrat) and file for office. It does not mean they represent the views of that party; it just means they hope to score a few votes from straight ticket voters if they get past the primary. Hutchins represents the view of his NIM Crown group that is not a recognized party.